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Two British men become first to give birth after putting gender surgery on hold

Opening Argument

agsragsr 601 Pts

Two British men have become the first in the country to give birth after putting their gender transitions on hold.

Hayden Cross, 21, and Scott Parker, 23, were both born women, but chose to have children before full surgery made it impossible.

In April Mr Parker gave birth to his daughter Sara who was conceived following a drunken one-night stand with a friend in August last year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/07/09/two-british-men-become-first-give-birth-putting-gender-surgery/

  1. Are we blurring the line too much?

    12 votes
    1. Crazy - we are erasing conventional lines between men and women
      66.67%
    2. That's cool - perfectly fine
      33.33%
Live Long and Prosper

Status: Open Debate


Arguments

  • They want the cake and eat it too.
  • inc4tinc4t 154 Pts
    The line is crossed on that one.  The children will be really confused when grown up
  • These are really technically women.  It is their choice, although of course sounds bizarre 
    It's kind of fun to do the impossible
    - Walt Disney
  • That is unholy. We have 2 genders. Let's keep it that way.
  • FascismFascism 188 Pts
    Why do encourage people to be mentally ill? We should be curing these people, not letting them have kids. 
  • Fascism said:
    Why do encourage people to be mentally ill? We should be curing these people, not letting them have kids. 
    If a man had social anxiety, or a woman major depression, and they actively went to therapy for it, would you keep them from having children? Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness just as these are. Should we keep someone from having a family because of said mental illness? If these people were holding back on reassignment surgery, that means they had an actual diagnosis and were seeing a professional about said diagnosis on top of that. 

    Why should we keep mentally ill people from having children?   
    DawnBringerRiven
  • edited October 8
    They're only referred to as men. I don't believe that is blurring the lines. 

  • FascismFascism 188 Pts
    mehbeh1 said:
    Fascism said:
    Why do encourage people to be mentally ill? We should be curing these people, not letting them have kids. 
    If a man had social anxiety, or a woman major depression, and they actively went to therapy for it, would you keep them from having children? Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness just as these are. Should we keep someone from having a family because of said mental illness? If these people were holding back on reassignment surgery, that means they had an actual diagnosis and were seeing a professional about said diagnosis on top of that. 

    Why should we keep mentally ill people from having children?   

    Reword that question.
    Why should children have mentally ill parents? 
    These people don't even know what their gender is. Reassignment surgery is not a cure. If I had a person's body and felt like I was a chicken, and I was given surgery to have a beak and chicken hormones flow through me, I'm still a human. My species did not change. Giving mentally ill parents a normal life and a family causes the children of these parents to not have normal lives. 

  • Why should children have mentally ill parents? 
    These people don't even know what their gender is. Reassignment surgery is not a cure. If I had a person's body and felt like I was a chicken, and I was given surgery to have a beak and chicken hormones flow through me, I'm still a human. My species did not change. Giving mentally ill parents a normal life and a family causes the children of these parents to not have normal lives. 
    @Fascism ;

    These people do not believe they are chickens. They believe they are men; there is a huge difference. I almost want to stop right there, but, alas I will continue. You completely ignore that testosterone actually does give them a more male-like figure and reassignment surgery will give them an artificial penis. The problem with wanting to be a chicken would be the fact that chicken hormones do not do anything to a human body anyway. Of course, it's not my job to talk about what animal hormones do to human bodies.

    So, in conclusion, I did indeed mean "Why should we keep mentally ill people from having children?"  
     
  • @mehbeh1
    "So, in conclusion, I did indeed mean "Why should we keep mentally ill people from having children?"  
    I know what you meant. I was rewording the question to show another point of view. 

    They believe they are something which they are not. You claim that the difference comes because of the hormones which change gender actually works. But no, it doesn't because they still have the chromosomes assigned to them at birth, which determines their sex. If you want to change their sex then change every single cell in their body, and their DNA. 

    Plus how does the introduction of hormones change my argument in any way? My argument was that if I had changes in my body which makes me more like a chicken, then I'm still a human. So my implication was that if I had changes which make my body more like the opposite sex, I'm still the original sex. Hormones are a form of change. 
  • mehbeh1mehbeh1 18 Pts
    edited November 5
    @Fascism

    I know what you were doing. I can play a game here too, you know. 

    You know, people with gender dysphoria experience all sorts of pain due to the way they appear. These men are changing the way they look to make them feel happy; perhaps they still have female chromosomes, but they are happy- which I would say is way more cured than making them live in misery for the entirety of their lives because someone can't afford to see them with a kid. A life with a happy family is a normal life- or the life you want to live.

    All a child needs for a normal life is to feel loved and happy, as well as basic necessities. Any parent can give a child these things if they have the right resources- here being the reassignment surgery.

  • mehbeh1 said:
    @Fascism

    I know what you were doing. I can play a game here too, you know. 

    You know, people with gender dysphoria experience all sorts of pain due to the way they appear. These men are changing the way they look to make them feel happy; perhaps they still have female chromosomes, but they are happy- which I would say is way more cured than making them live in misery for the entirety of their lives because someone can't afford to see them with a kid. A life with a happy family is a normal life- or the life you want to live.

    All a child needs for a normal life is to feel loved and happy, as well as basic necessities. Any parent can give a child these things if they have the right resources- here being the reassignment surgery.

    The surgery has been proven to not improve the transgender people's emotional well-being. They are still emotionally-unstable. The child does not have an emotionally-stable parent, or parents. 
  • NopeNope 96 Pts
    Where is this? The UK or are they some other place but they are just British men?
  • Being transgender is not “okay”, it is a mental illness. The American Psychiatric Organization has classified gender dysphoria as a mental illness. There is no reason that we should be accepting transgender people as what they think they are, they are in danger. You would not tell a skinzophrenic that the television was talking to them, so you cannot let a transgendered person say that they are a different gender.
    The transgendered suicide rate is upwards of 40% the only comparable rate of suicide is jews during the holocaust. In no way does society attack transgendered people in the way german society attacked jews, I do not see any gas chambers. Gender Dysphoria is a dangerous mental illness and is not “okay”, transgender people should seek treatment and not hormone therapy.

    Ultimately I don't care what trans people want to do to their body, as long as they aren't hurting anyone that's not my problem. Your stance is that trans people should be able to change their body to fit what they think, my stance is the opposite. I feel like that trans people should change their minds to fit their bodies. This avoids hate from people, and the negative side effects of HTR an SRS, and even after such "treatments occur" suicide rates are still abnormally high. This is inherently different from homosexuality, as homosexuality has not proved to have any negative side affects.

    I think a good way to stop bigotry is to make the classification of gender dysphoria more known, I would never be discriminatory a trans people. If we actually viewed these people as those who fight for their lives every day, who are combating a mental illness - that would reduce any discrimination. 

    What we should do is start research psychological cures of gender dysphoria and save lives.
    Fascism
  • @MissDMeanor
    I agree. A mental illness is an abnormality in the mind which reduces an organism's capacity to survive or reproduce. Transgenders fall under this category. 

    People point to statistics which show that abused transgenders are more likely to commit suicide, however this is overlooking a fact. The suicide rate of people who aren't transgender who are abused don't have the same suicide rate, which shows that there are other factors which cause transgenders to commit suicide, probably their mental instability. 
    MissDMeanor
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