frame

US should have tighter gun control

Opening Argument

US has far more guns per person than any other civilized country.  We continue to have mass shootings, costing many lives.  We need to implement tighter gun controls and regulations.
CYDdhartanorthsouthkoreaRodinon
  1. tighter gun control is good

    11 votes
    1. Yes
      18.18%
    2. No
      81.82%
WhyTrump - a good question
About Persuade Me

Persuaded Argument

  • VaulkVaulk 271 Pts
    edited August 6 Winning Argument ✓
    @ChangeMyView, I'm afraid @Sylynn is correct. The issue with firearms in regards to criminal usage of one...is not a matter of the Criminal being able to legally obtain a firearm from a gunstore, gunshow, or otherwise legal method.

    Criminals (Speaking strictly about those who intentionally break the law) do not typically purchase Firearms from gun dealers, gun stores or gun shows.  Why you ask?  Because the guns are serial numbered, the barrels are manufactured to uniquely stamp the rounds exiting their barrel and lastly (And most importantly) the gun would be legally registered to the person who purchased the gun.  Now I'm not the smartest guy in the world...but it would seem that if I were a criminal looking to commit a crime with a gun...I might not use one that's essentially stamped with my full name, social security number, date of birth and current address. 

    No, I'm afraid that criminals are majorly prone to using stolen weapons or weapons that are smuggled illegally into the United States (Ghost Guns) that have no traceable serial number.  These weapons aren't affected by gun control laws, gun control laws ONLY regulate the sale and transfer of LEGALLY purchased weapons.  Now I'm not saying that criminals don't use legally purchased weapons to commit crimes...I'm almost certain there is a margin of crime in the U.S. that includes crimes committed with legally purchased firearms...the margin is approximately 1/5 of all gun crime that is committed annually.  So that means 20% of ALL crime in the U.S. committed with a Gun is done so by gun owners who obtained their guns legally.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe that's the literal definition of "Minority".

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/27/new-evidence-confirms-what-gun-rights-advocates-have-been-saying-for-a-long-time-about-crime/?utm_term=.1274d92da71d

    Now I'm not saying that we should drop the regs, dump the laws, close the books or stop documenting the guns that are sold...but if we're going to have an HONEST discussion about what needs to be done to cut down gun Violence in the United States....then we're going to have to have an HONEST discussion about the biggest and most critical underlying issue regarding Gun Violence in the United States...and it's not gun control. 

    Estimates from CESOP (Mexico's own Government research service) puts illegal guns from Mexico to the U.S. at over 2,000 every week. Tens of thousands of guns are illegally entering the United States every week from other foreign countries.  These illegal weapons are functional and reliable, cost a fraction of a legally obtained Firearm, cannot be traced back to you and what's even better is that after you're done with your gun...you can sell it back to a dealer who will eventually transport it across the border to Mexico to be resold.  Meanwhile during the process...the legal gun buying and selling system wasn't ever involved.

    So you can EASILY see (When Literally 80% of Gun Violence comes from guns that were obtained outside of the legal system) how lawful gun owners are upside down baffled at why anyone would think that putting tighter controls on lawfully obtained weapons will reduce gun violence in the United States.  Especially when areas of the United States with the highest gun violence (Chicago) have heavier gun control regulations than almost anywhere else in the U.S.
    1Hacker0WhyTrump

Status: Open Debate


Arguments

  • ImbsterImbster 93 Pts
    I believe licensing is already enough and the fact we have to purchase one at a high price. Even tighter control would be defeating the second amendment.

    That's on the surface of a political basis. I too would want less mass shootings but basic human rights already compensates to that of which these mass murders must go to federal court and suffer punishment.

    Could you perhaps have a defined draft on what your tighter gun control and regulations offer?
  • @Imbster, I don't agree that it violates second amendment based on license costs.  The government has responsibilities to protect the people. We should've have such an easy access to guns, and have more guns per person than any other civilized country.

    I am not in the best position to actually draft a proposed regulation, but it should include more screenings and background checks for one.
    WhyTrump - a good question
  • SylynnSylynn 68 Pts
    What evidence do you have to suggest gun control works? We have mass shootings taking place in areas with strict gun control, in gun free zones, by people who are willing to commit murder, which is already illegal. You can't just keep piling on more and more laws hoping one will stick. Why can't people realize criminals don't care about laws. That's what makes them a criminal. If they're already willing to commit murder, you really think breaking some laws regarding gun control is going to be a big deal for them?
    ErfisflatWhyTrumpnorthsouthkorea1Hacker0
  • love2debatelove2debate 146 Pts
    edited July 12
    There was anoter debateIsland debate I found on this topic in May where @Vaulk made an excellent argument.  We don't need tighter gun controls, but more effective penalties.

    Vaulk said:
    @melanielust

    I think you're on the right track here.  I personally don't believe that we need stricter gun laws, instead we need heavier penalties for crimes committed with firearms.  I personally believe that owning a Firearm is a right, and that rights cannot be restricted or regulated otherwise they would be privileges.  This wouldn't stop us however, from enacting new penalties and criminal punishments for committing a crime with a Firearm.  I think too many thugs are essentially unscathed from the judicial system so long as they don't fall into the 1st degree category for violent crimes committed with a firearm.

    See the tables for yourselves, we're spread even in some areas but most areas look pretty ridiculous for 2nd and 3rd degree manslaughter.

    https://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0186.htm

    And don't ask me how you can be convicted of KIDNAPPING with a firearm and only be sentenced to 20 years.  I think we can all agree, if you steal a child at gunpoint....you should probably be exiled from the U.S.  We're not talking about a minor lapse in judgement here.  

    northsouthkorea1Hacker0
  • @love2debate, I support that comment, but still feel we need tighter controls and screening.
    northsouthkorea
    WhyTrump - a good question
  • @Sylynn, I get your point, but...
    Correlating highest guns per person in US info, relaxed gun controls, and many mass shootings is a reasonable indication that we have an issue.
    where is your evidence that stricter gun controls will not help?
    northsouthkorea
    WhyTrump - a good question
  • Tighter gun control punishes the majority of the US which intend to use guns for hunting, self defense and maybe other uses. The US shouldn't have tighter gun control.
  • SylynnSylynn 68 Pts
    WhyTrump said:
    @Sylynn, I get your point, but...
    Correlating highest guns per person in US info, relaxed gun controls, and many mass shootings is a reasonable indication that we have an issue.
    where is your evidence that stricter gun controls will not help?
    I already explained my evidence, but let me elaborate. You can look at the statistics and say the US has more guns per person that other places, and perhaps more relaxed gun controls, but to get an accurate picture of the issue, let's consider where the shootings are actually taking place. Most shootings occur in areas within the US that are actually more strict when it comes to gun control, in places that are claimed to be "gun free" by people already willing to break the law. 

    Secondly, to reiterate my statement in my original response, criminals don't follow the law. LAWS HAVE NO IMPACT ON CRIMINALS. More restrictions on firearms only hurts law-abiding citizens, not criminals. Have you ever considered why so many shootings happen in gun free zones? The shooter knows they're attacking unarmed victims. By allowing citizens to freely exercise their constitutional rights, there would be less shootings because it's more of a risk to open fire in an area that consists of other armed individuals.

    You can't fix a problem by putting more restrictions on the people who aren't even a part of the problem.
  • @Sylynn, do you support tougher penalties proposed by Vaulk above?

    Woukd you then fully support to abolish all gun restrictions and screening? If you argue that laws don't matter for criminals then why take any precautionary measures on anything or have any regulations at all?
    WhyTrump - a good question
  • SylynnSylynn 68 Pts
    @WhyTrump, Yes, I would support tougher penalties for those who actually commit the crime.

    Regarding the abolishment (why doesn't spell check like this word?) of all restrictions, yes I would support that. I'm all for smaller government, and most laws don't actually help, but simply restrict. I'm not saying ALL laws are inherently bad (though I am struggling to think of one that is good), but with regards to firearm restrictions, they are just that - restrictions.
  • @Sylynn, we both agree on tougher penalties.  Are you saying that you would let anyone walk up to a cash register and just buy a gun (even if a person has criminal record or on parole)? Maybe all cash fully undocumented? 
    WhyTrump - a good question
  • SylynnSylynn 68 Pts
    @WhyTrump - Not anyone. If you're under the age of 18 or not a citizen, no. Otherwise, yes.
  • @Sylynn, it is disturbing that you are proposing to sell weapons without virtually any documentation.  We have enough issues going on, so I would prefer not to add to the list.  You are suggesting that it will be easier to buy weapons than beer.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 753 Pts
    @Sylynn, it is disturbing that you are proposing to sell weapons without virtually any documentation.  We have enough issues going on, so I would prefer not to add to the list.  You are suggesting that it will be easier to buy weapons than beer.
    Again,  this is where the harsher penalties come in. The criminals are already obtaining guns easier than beer, on the black market. It's a slippery slope, but you can't put this genie back in it's bottle.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • @Erfisflat, that's ine genie that we should and can put back in the bottle with tougher regulations 
    WhyTrump - a good question
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 753 Pts
    WhyTrump said:
    @Erfisflat, that's ine genie that we should and can put back in the bottle with tougher regulations 
    I really don't think it's possible at all. There will always be guns. That's what I meant. By trying to take them out of criminals hands, who could care less what the law says, you would be indirectly affecting people who abide by the laws. Big bro may one day say "ok, this guy is crazy because he knows the earth is flat (9/11,Sandy hook, etc), he thinks we would lie to him and he is against the government, he doesn't  need a gun" then I'm left without protection. This is fine now, I don't live in a bad neighborhood I,  but what if I did?  All the criminals in my hood have a gun from the black market, and I'm s.o.l.
    On the same note, less guns in the hands of civilians and ALL of them in the hands of government, (which is responsible for more deaths than any other entity on the whole wide plane) is a police state/Orwellian takeover waiting to happen. It's why we wrote the constitution. 
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • @Erfisflat, there are better ways of fighting gun violence in bad neighborhoods than putting more guns in those neighborhoods 
    WhyTrump - a good question
  • RodinonRodinon 67 Pts
    @WhyTrump
    Look at it like the Syrian Red Line.  Does it really matter whether or not children are being slaughtered by sarin gas or shot?  Oh, good, they were only gut shot.  That's not so bad!  I thought they had been gassed.  What a relief!  

    Taking guns away or limiting guns doesn't solve murder, it just forces murderous people to find a different way to do it.  Like buy guns illegally.  Build a bomb.  Use knifes.  Or swords, like the Yakuza.  (I guess)  Poison gas can be made using any number of common household chemicals.  You could bludgeon someone with a rock.  Or your fist.  And laws don't prevent crime.  They only provide a baseline for where society will attempt to punish evil after the fact.

    We don't need restrictions on methods, the root of the problem is murderous intent.  Societal reform of this sort only comes from reforming the hearts of those in the society.  And that only comes through God changing your heart.
  • WhyTrump said:
    @Erfisflat, there are better ways of fighting gun violence in bad neighborhoods than putting more guns in those neighborhoods 

    Who is more effective at stopping someone with a gun than someone else with a gun?
  • The entire purpose of the second amendment, was to protect citizens against government tyranny. That's actually what the founding fathers said.
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