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Abortion is a thing. LET'S DEBATE ABOUT IT!

RodinonRodinon 57 Pts
edited August 3 in Philosophy
I disdain to categorize this as "politics," because every stinking thing is political now.  What do you mean marriage is political?  What do you mean parenting is political?  What do you mean what I feed my child is political?  Anyhow.

Abortion.  A popular topic at parties and family Sunday dinners.  A lighthearted icebreaker with strangers at the checkout.  The perfect lead-in question to ask any potential employer.  And it's what we'll be discussing here!  So put on your favorite smooth jazz mix tape, warm up the chocolate fountain, and invite the new neighbors over.  We're talking abortion!  Bring your favorite fondue to pass.  No, wait! Leave that on the table.  It's hot!
joecavalry
  1. How do view abortion?8 votes
    1. I am supportive of abortion.
      37.50%
    2. I am generally supportive of abortion.
        0.00%
    3. I am generally not supportive of abortion.
      25.00%
    4. I do not support abortion.
      37.50%

Comments

  • Abortion is an i humane act which is essentially killing a baby in a painful way.
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • You're either a realist who accepts chance creation.
    Or a conceptualist who accepts purposeful creation.
    The former accepts, that above all else nothing really matters.
    For the latter, everything has meaning.
    As things stand, we have no evidence to validate either belief.
  • here is the argument that i posted on my own debate about abortion:

    I think that, from a moral and ethical standpoint, Abortion is disgustingly wrong. It is essentially the murder of a human life for the convenience of the mother. 
    It is interesting to me, when i walk around protests i see pictures of abortions, and i think, "why would they just shove these in my face?" Nobody wants to see that. However this is how people would treat pictures of slavery in the 1800's. This connection is interesting enough because the argument in favor of abortion is exactly the same as the argument for slavery, exactly the same. "Your black, your on my property, you are my property i decide if you are a life or not" , "your a fetus, your in my body, i decide if your a life or not". Do you see the correlation?  History repeats itself and it is our job, as the american people to put and end to immoral and unethical evils that time and time again find its way into legality.
    I will now debunk several common pro choice arguments.

    1. It is just a bundle of cells
    Technically they are right, it is just a bundle of cells, however that is essentially what a human is, a bundle of cells. So i don't exactly understand what they are trying to prove here. I have seen many pregnant woman over the years and that bump is not a simple bundle of cells, it is a living breathing human being.

    2.reproductive choice gives woman power over their own bodies
    first of all, if you really had power over your own bodies, you wouldn't have had sex in the first place, unless you are a rape victim which i will explain later. Second, the baby is not part of your body just because it is in it, just like a person is not a slave just because they are in your property. Now back to the case of rape. Rape victims account for less than 1% of all abortions annually. That is an extremely marginal case. There are several programs to help this extremely marginal and unfortunate group (https://www.rapevictimadvocates.org/programs-services/, https://www.rainn.org/)
    outside of the case of rape, abortion cases, ironically are mostly women who cant control their bodies and have irresponsible sex.

    3. It is a constitutional right
    contrary to the roe v wade mishap. the actual constitution does not give woman the power to kill babies (http://constitutionus.com/)



    In conclusion to my opening statement, Abortion is a violation of everyone's right to live, and even though pro choice people tell you that pro choice is pro woman, abortion is the single greatest cause of female deaths annually (pew research), Feminists use the veil of gender equality to push their political agenda, defaming the original idea of feminism and calling everyone who disagrees with their ideas a sexist racist bigoted homophobic hater
  • here is the argument that i posted on my own debate about abortion:

    I think that, from a moral and ethical standpoint, Abortion is disgustingly wrong. It is essentially the murder of a human life for the convenience of the mother. 
    It is interesting to me, when i walk around protests i see pictures of abortions, and i think, "why would they just shove these in my face?" Nobody wants to see that. However this is how people would treat pictures of slavery in the 1800's. This connection is interesting enough because the argument in favor of abortion is exactly the same as the argument for slavery, exactly the same. "Your black, your on my property, you are my property i decide if you are a life or not" , "your a fetus, your in my body, i decide if your a life or not". Do you see the correlation?  History repeats itself and it is our job, as the american people to put and end to immoral and unethical evils that time and time again find its way into legality.
    I will now debunk several common pro choice arguments.

    1. It is just a bundle of cells
    Technically they are right, it is just a bundle of cells, however that is essentially what a human is, a bundle of cells. So i don't exactly understand what they are trying to prove here. I have seen many pregnant woman over the years and that bump is not a simple bundle of cells, it is a living breathing human being.

    2.reproductive choice gives woman power over their own bodies
    first of all, if you really had power over your own bodies, you wouldn't have had sex in the first place, unless you are a rape victim which i will explain later. Second, the baby is not part of your body just because it is in it, just like a person is not a slave just because they are in your property. Now back to the case of rape. Rape victims account for less than 1% of all abortions annually. That is an extremely marginal case. There are several programs to help this extremely marginal and unfortunate group (https://www.rapevictimadvocates.org/programs-services/, https://www.rainn.org/)
    outside of the case of rape, abortion cases, ironically are mostly women who cant control their bodies and have irresponsible sex.

    3. It is a constitutional right
    contrary to the roe v wade mishap. the actual constitution does not give woman the power to kill babies (http://constitutionus.com/)



    In conclusion to my opening statement, Abortion is a violation of everyone's right to live, and even though pro choice people tell you that pro choice is pro woman, abortion is the single greatest cause of female deaths annually (pew research), Feminists use the veil of gender equality to push their political agenda, defaming the original idea of feminism and calling everyone who disagrees with their ideas a sexist racist bigoted homophobic hater
  • RodinonRodinon 57 Pts

    outside of the case of rape, abortion cases, ironically are mostly women who cant don't control their bodies and have irresponsible sex.



  • here is the argument that i posted on my own debate about abortion:

    I think that, from a moral and ethical standpoint, Abortion is disgustingly wrong. It is essentially the murder of a human life for the convenience of the mother. 
    It is interesting to me, when i walk around protests i see pictures of abortions, and i think, "why would they just shove these in my face?" Nobody wants to see that. However this is how people would treat pictures of slavery in the 1800's. This connection is interesting enough because the argument in favor of abortion is exactly the same as the argument for slavery, exactly the same. "Your black, your on my property, you are my property i decide if you are a life or not" , "your a fetus, your in my body, i decide if your a life or not". Do you see the correlation?  History repeats itself and it is our job, as the american people to put and end to immoral and unethical evils that time and time again find its way into legality.
    I will now debunk several common pro choice arguments.
    @JuicyMelonTech Ok, you believe killing a baby is like killing a slave? Well, slaves I could say that killing mosquitoes is like like killing slaves because people decide that the mosquitoes lives are not worth getting stung and maybe getting a variety of horrible diseases.That argument makes no sense. Moreover, the mother is not deciding what constitutes a human, the society and the government is. Yes, we should not be taking human lives, but I will (hopefully) prove to you that abortion is doing no such thing. 

    1. It is just a bundle of cells
    Technically they are right, it is just a bundle of cells, however that is essentially what a human is, a bundle of cells. So i don't exactly understand what they are trying to prove here. I have seen many pregnant woman over the years and that bump is not a simple bundle of cells, it is a living breathing human being.
    So, what do you define as human? Obviously, just saying "its a bundle of cells" is a horrible argument. Let me lay out mine. My argument is this that a fetus is just a bundle of cells that is not sufficiently developed (this is for early term abortions, late term ones are totally different) that killing it should not be counted much more than killing bacteria. Seeing pregnant women does not make you  an expert in the development of a human embryo and an embryo certainly does not breath.  Here are a few points which science considers fetuses to be human enough to be included in the right to life we all enjoy. 

    Tissue separation

    This is the time when tissues in the foetus separate into different types.

    • this covers a lengthy period of time
    • tissue type separation doesn't seem to have any obvious moral - so the choice of this as the key date is probably because the increasingly human appearance of the foetus causes us to feel increasingly protective of the foetus

    Brain activity

    Some people believe life begins at the first sign of brain activity.

    • this is a logical point, as it marks a necessary state for many of the characteristics that some people think a 'moral person' has to possess
    • but brain activity at this stage is no more than a precondition - it doesn't demonstrate that the foetus is actually 'conscious'

    Viability of the foetus

    • Other people take the view that life begins at the stage when the foetus could survive outside the womb.
    • this is the most common criterion used in drafting laws regulating abortion
    • whether a foetus can survive outside the womb depends on:
    • the state of medical science
    • the medical facilities available at a particular location
    • the competence or willingness of the mother (or some other care-giver)
    • the gender of the foetus
    • the race of the foetus
    • there is something unsatisfactory about a being's rights being determined by its sex or race, the state of medical science, the state of medical facilities at a particular location, or the type of mother it has
    2.reproductive choice gives woman power over their own bodies
    first of all, if you really had power over your own bodies, you wouldn't have had sex in the first place, unless you are a rape victim which i will explain later. Second, the baby is not part of your body just because it is in it, just like a person is not a slave just because they are in your property. Now back to the case of rape. Rape victims account for less than 1% of all abortions annually. That is an extremely marginal case. There are several programs to help this extremely marginal and unfortunate group (https://www.rapevictimadvocates.org/programs-services/, https://www.rainn.org/)
    outside of the case of rape, abortion cases, ironically are mostly women who cant control their bodies and have irresponsible sex.
    You are correct about rape, and yes, almost all abortion cases are a result of women who don't think through having unprotected sex, but that isn't very important. Most of the arguments about women having power over their own bodies stem from the idea that if you mess up once, your child, partner, family, and yourself should not suffer. Often times, the child will suffer from an unplanned birth. 23% of abortions are because the parents don't have the money to raise a child. If a child's family cannot provide them with basic privileges, and even providing the very very basics (food, bed, water) stretches the family's finances incredibly thin then it may be reasonable to kill something which in terms of complexity and cell number is more similar to a parasite than a human. Yes, people make mistakes, but the should not be punished for them for the rest of their lives.
    3. It is a constitutional right
    contrary to the roe v wade mishap. the actual constitution does not give woman the power to kill babies (http://constitutionus.com/)
    This is a bad point anyway. It is saying that something is morally correct because the constitution says so. The constitution is just another document. Though it may be one of the most important in the world, it is no better as a moral compass than any other document.
    In conclusion to my opening statement, Abortion is a violation of everyone's right to live, and even though pro choice people tell you that pro choice is pro woman, abortion is the single greatest cause of female deaths annually (pew research), Feminists use the veil of gender equality to push their political agenda, defaming the original idea of feminism and calling everyone who disagrees with their ideas a sexist racist bigoted homophobic hater
    Abortion definitely does not violate every person's right to life as the organism being killed is not a person. I don't know where you get these figures. https://www.cdc.gov/women/lcod/2014/index.htm Unless you count the embryo as a women, which you would be wrong in doing so for the reasons above. So you think that abortions are about gender equality? Show me where any reasonable feminist has said that. Ok, well I must fulfill the stereotype. You sexist racist bigoted homophobic hater. 

    Closing thoughts. Embryos are not human, and women should not have their lives torn apart because then messed up once.The constitution does not matter. Also, before you go on and on about I am just a woman who wants to be able to get away with anything. I am not, I am a male. 
    1Hacker0
  • @THEDENIER

    I'd just like to ask a question. What makes a human a human? 

    I would like a definite answer. What makes me a human and not just an animal? Or am I like a dog and killing anyone doesn't bring any moral implications (I doubt that's your stance though)?

    Oh, and it doesn't have to be physical, it can be non-physical.
  • @THEDENIER

    I'd just like to ask a question. What makes a human a human? 

    I would like a definite answer. What makes me a human and not just an animal? Or am I like a dog and killing anyone doesn't bring any moral implications (I doubt that's your stance though)?

    Oh, and it doesn't have to be physical, it can be non-physical.

    A humans genetic make up defines them as human.

    Check out the definition of Animalia.
    You are an animal. 
    Morality is a merely a concept.
    Human society is bogged down in conceptual nonsense.


    We kill millions of other creatures every day in order to satiate our hunger/greed.
    Does this have moral implications?
  • @Fredsnephew Yes, I agree, but in a moral sense, humans are more complicated. For example, a recently dead body has human genetics, but that can't be considered human morally. Also, a brain dead person who will never wake may be "alive" but they are not clearly entitled to human rights. That is more grey. In general, you make a fair point, but an oversimplified one.
  • My stance - Abortion is wrong except for two circumstances - Rape and result of death for the mother.

    Explanation 1 - The latter, preserving the life of the mother is obvious, we ought to protect people that are alive now first, and then worry about the future generation.

    Explanation 2 - The former...is a bit controversial, you could make the argument that "Rape is bad, but the two issues are unrelated, it doesn't justify the murder of a life or at least a potential life." Sort of, I don't think it justifies abortion, I think that rape puts abortion into perspective. The child and the victim of a rapist are most likely going to meet their end while trying to live a miserable existence. It's basically delaying the inevitable. "But @SnakesOfferingApples, everyone will die one day, should we all just get it over with then?" No!!! Most people that haven't lived through a situation like this can get over misery, you can look back at your family, friends, etc to help you. However, a child of a rapist doesn't have that foundation, as their rapist father/mother is either in jail or is nowhere to be found and the mother/father that is there is an emotional/psychological wreck. It's a setup for failure and/or suicide.

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