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Dear Mexico, please pay for my wall..I think NOT

Opening Argument

One of the key parts of Trump's pledge for American people was that Mexico will pay for the wall.  It continues to be very unlikely that they will pay. So unless Trump will pull a financial engineering trick, Mexico is very clear that they will not pay.  

In response to Trump tweet, Mexico reiterates it won't pay for the wall

natbaronsnorthsouthkoreaaarongjoecavalry
  1. Will Mexico Pay for the Wall?

    12 votes
    1. Yes
      16.67%
    2. No
      83.33%
WhyTrump - a good question
«1

Status: Open Debate


Arguments

  • No, they won't make a payment. Although, America may get reimburse through tariff.
  • SilverishGoldNovaTHEDENIER
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • Mexico will end up paying either directly or indirectly.  They will not likely hand over suitcases of cash, but will pay with economic trade imbalances  shift.
  • edited September 1
    Erfisflat said:
    And they've decided which puppet will do it. He got a bunch of people to support him by claiming he wasn't going to be funded by big banks, which he was lying about, and they chose him because he knew he'd be divisive. 
    Erfisflat
  • Trump NEVER said Mexico was going to pay for the wall upfront.  His position was always that we would repaid for the cost of the wall.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 753 Pts
    edited August 29


    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • inc4tinc4t 154 Pts
    @CYDdharta, I agree too.  Paying for the wall doesn't need to be upfront. There is so much trade going on that any shift in the tarrifs will essentially pay for the wall. 
  • VaulkVaulk 271 Pts
    If you can even call it trade.  You know, because...all those amazing exports that Mexico has...that uh...we need in the U.S....you know like....uh...I know there's something that Mexico has that we need...I just can't think of it.
    northsouthkorea
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @Vaulk
    Laborers?
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • VaulkVaulk 271 Pts
    @Erfisflat,

    Nah, the U.S. doesn't "Need" illegal labor.  Granted we use it, but if you take it away the economy isn't going to destabilize, it'll take a dip and then return to where it should have always been without illegal work.  Same way with drugs, the selling of illegal substances actually plays a large part in the economy but removing it wouldn't kill the economy.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Vaulk said:
    @Erfisflat,

    Nah, the U.S. doesn't "Need" illegal labor.  Granted we use it, but if you take it away the economy isn't going to destabilize, it'll take a dip and then return to where it should have always been without illegal work.  Same way with drugs, the selling of illegal substances actually plays a large part in the economy but removing it wouldn't kill the economy.
    I disagree, illegal immigrants work for far less than their counterparts, and often harder. In a labor force snapshot from 2012-2013, Borjas found that about 87% of male illegal immigrants worked, compared to 74% of American men. This drives the pay down for uneducated workers but drives it up for college graduates.

    Americans have gotten lazy. Plain and simple. I would even argue that we've always been lazy, going from slavery to cheap labor. Of course I'm not speaking for every American or every Mexican. Either way, where there is a will there's a way. We will never be rid of illegal substances. We will never be rid of illegal labor.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • VaulkVaulk 271 Pts
    @Erfisflat,

    I happen to agree, I doubt illegal drugs and illegal immigrants will ever be a thing of the past.  Regardless however, I don't think their existence in our Country is a good thing.
    Erfisflat
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Erfisflat said:


    I disagree, illegal immigrants work for far less than their counterparts, and often harder. In a labor force snapshot from 2012-2013, Borjas found that about 87% of male illegal immigrants worked, compared to 74% of American men. This drives the pay down for uneducated workers but drives it up for college graduates.

    Americans have gotten lazy. Plain and simple. I would even argue that we've always been lazy, going from slavery to cheap labor. Of course I'm not speaking for every American or every Mexican. Either way, where there is a will there's a way. We will never be rid of illegal substances. We will never be rid of illegal labor.

    That can easily be addressed.  All you'd have to do to raise the stats of all groups is remove the social safety nets.  Illegals can't access welfare, social security, etc., at least theoretically.  If they aren't working, they don't get anything and it's hard to live without any income.
  • CYDdharta said:
    Erfisflat said:


    I disagree, illegal immigrants work for far less than their counterparts, and often harder. In a labor force snapshot from 2012-2013, Borjas found that about 87% of male illegal immigrants worked, compared to 74% of American men. This drives the pay down for uneducated workers but drives it up for college graduates.

    Americans have gotten lazy. Plain and simple. I would even argue that we've always been lazy, going from slavery to cheap labor. Of course I'm not speaking for every American or every Mexican. Either way, where there is a will there's a way. We will never be rid of illegal substances. We will never be rid of illegal labor.

    That can easily be addressed.  All you'd have to do to raise the stats of all groups is remove the social safety nets.  Illegals can't access welfare, social security, etc., at least theoretically.  If they aren't working, they don't get anything and it's hard to live without any income.
    Even with hard work, if you can find it, the rising cost of living still outweighs the wages. But supposing we do cut off all the welfare and social security, we've just killed off a bunch of kids by starvation, basically committing genocide, what next?
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • Erfisflat said:


    Even with hard work, if you can find it, the rising cost of living still outweighs the wages. But supposing we do cut off all the welfare and social security, we've just killed off a bunch of kids by starvation, basically committing genocide, what next?

    How so?  Do a whole lot of illegal children, who aren't eligible for welfare or social security, die off from starvation?
  • VaulkVaulk 271 Pts
    I'm with @CYDdharta on this one, I'm afraid that removing subsidized programs that shouldn't still be in effect isn't genocide.  If you start giving away a loaf of bread every day and then 10 years later you suddenly stop...is it your fault that people go hungry or should people take responsibility for their own lives and choices?
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • CYDdharta said:
    Erfisflat said:


    Even with hard work, if you can find it, the rising cost of living still outweighs the wages. But supposing we do cut off all the welfare and social security, we've just killed off a bunch of kids by starvation, basically committing genocide, what next?

    How so?  Do a whole lot of illegal children, who aren't eligible for welfare or social security, die off from starvation?
    By "remove the social safety nets." You don't mean for everyone? Illegal immigrants are already barred from receiving assistance. Though there are loopholes, such as citizen spouses or dependents.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • Erfisflat said:


    By "remove the social safety nets." You don't mean for everyone? Illegal immigrants are already barred from receiving assistance. Though there are loopholes, such as citizen spouses or dependents.
    You've just made my point for me.  Illegals, for the most part, aren't receiving assistance, yet there's no genocide.  In fact, the opposite is true, we have too many illegals coming in, despite the fact that  they are ineligible.  If illegals can make it, and even thrive, in the US without assistance, there's no reason to believe legal citizens wouldn't as well. 
  • CYDdharta said:
    Erfisflat said:


    Even with hard work, if you can find it, the rising cost of living still outweighs the wages. But supposing we do cut off all the welfare and social security, we've just killed off a bunch of kids by starvation, basically committing genocide, what next?

    How so?  Do a whole lot of illegal children, who aren't eligible for welfare or social security, die off from starvation?
    So your solution to illegal immigration is to cut welfare assistance to American citizens, and take away American citizens social security?
    SilverishGoldNova
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • edited September 2
    Erfisflat said:


    So your solution to illegal immigration is to cut welfare assistance to American citizens, and take away American citizens social security?

    I never said that.  What I said was if you want US citizens to demonstrate the same work ethic, or better, as illegals, it is easily accomplished.  By the same token, as soon as illegals become legal and are eligible for the same benefits, you can expect a similar work ethic from the formerly illegals as from US citizens.  What is your goal?
  • CYDdharta said:
    Erfisflat said:


    So your solution to illegal immigration is to cut welfare assistance to American citizens, and take away American citizens social security?

    I never said that.  What I said was if you want US citizens to demonstrate the same work ethic, or better, as illegals, it is easily accomplished.  By the same token, as soon as illegals become legal and are eligible for the same benefits, you can expect a similar work ethic from the formerly illegals as from US citizens.  What is your goal?
    If you were to drop welfare and assistance and social security, I think better work ethics would be the last thing you'd have on your hands. Police state incoming. The illegals' work ethics aren't the problem, as the statistics show. I say if the Mexicans are willing to come and work harder, for less, why are we trying to stop them? Is your goal building a wall?
    joecavalry
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • Mexico will not pay for the wall, but instead will reimburse America through tariff.
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • Erfisflat said:


    If you were to drop welfare and assistance and social security, I think better work ethics would be the last thing you'd have on your hands. Police state incoming. The illegals' work ethics aren't the problem, as the statistics show. I say if the Mexicans are willing to come and work harder, for less, why are we trying to stop them? Is your goal building a wall?

    What in the world would cause you to think such a thing?!?  We didn't have a police state before we had welfare and social security, there's no reason to think such a thing would occur if they were removed. 

    My only point was to illustrate that you can't compare illegal's work ethic to citizens.  Illegals work harder because they have no choice.  If you take the choice away from citizens, or give the choice to illegals, then both groups will have the same work ethic.  And the problem is they they take jobs away from citizens.
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