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Please explain kneeling to the flag during NFL games.

Opening Argument

This is one of those things that's SO loaded with baggage it is nearly impossible to talk with someone about it.  Please, explain your position on this issue if you are in support of it.  Remember, I have had little success talking with people who support it.  Pretend you are talking to your friendly local Martian ambassador.

What is the symbolism of kneeling before the flag?
What outcome are you hoping for?
What outcome are you expecting?
What do you think people who oppose doing this are are thinking?

If you oppose the kneeling, please wait until the first 5 responses from supporters are in.  I want them to have a clear hearing so they can be certain I understand.
joecavalrynorthsouthkorea
  1. Do you support kneeling for the anthem/flag?

    13 votes
    1. I support it.
      15.38%
    2. I oppose it.
      61.54%
    3. I don't care.
      23.08%
«1

Status: Open Debate

Arguments

  • I oppose the kneeling during the national anthem and it downs those patriotism.
    harrison_duncan
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • It is brignding down patriotism and can lead to a less audience for the NFL and other sports if it spreads to other leagues and sports. The president is correct and some Americans agree with him as well.
  • WakeWake 119 Pts
    I fought in a war for my country and having millionaires attack this country for things they know nothing about is twenty steps over the line. I will no longer have anything to do with the NFL, the NBA or any of their sponsors.
  • I personally oppose kneeling for the national anthem, but I recognize that they have the right to do so under the first amendment. If I want freedom of speech it needs to apply universally.
    Erfisflat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 671 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Kneeling before a piece of dyed cloth is blasphemous. The flag should not require such reverence. Of course I oppose it, as I also support burning it.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • @Erfisflat

    I don't think we're talking about the same thing.  But that IS interesting.  Do you support burning it in principle, or do you actively support it being burned?
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 671 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    I burn them. I dont think the act of burning a piece of cloth should be frowned upon. Nor do I believe one should give it any reverence. It has become an idol.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • It's highly disappointing that NFL being an American sport, is showing such disrespect to our Country. Trump is appealing to patriotism and is absolutely right.  Disgrace to NFL players who choose to dishonor the anthem. Let them move to another country if they are nit happy here. 
    CYDdharta
  • VaulkVaulk 253 Pts
    Seems Trump's work is done.  The NFL bent over willingly.  The damage is done though, ticket sales are down, attendance numbers are down and the NFL has no one to blame but themselves for the actions of these selfish, spoiled, game-playing Children.

    The freedom of speech is ever preserved...and so is the right to completely destroy and demolish someone socially if they say or do something too far out of line.  Never forget that.


    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • ErfisflatErfisflat 671 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Vaulk said:
    Seems Trump's work is done.  The NFL bent over willingly.  The damage is done though, ticket sales are down, attendance numbers are down and the NFL has no one to blame but themselves for the actions of these selfish, spoiled, game-playing Children.

    The freedom of speech is ever preserved...and so is the right to completely destroy and demolish someone socially if they say or do something too far out of line.  Never forget that.


    Sounds pretty Orwellian. 
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • VaulkVaulk 253 Pts
    edited October 2
    @Erfisflat,

    I'd say that exercising your freedom of speech against someone who you believe has foolishly exercised their freedom of speech is fairly American.  When people don't like other people's particular stupidity...they speak out against it...they call it out...hell there's entire television programs dedicated to making fun of and shaming people for saying and doing stupid things.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • ErfisflatErfisflat 671 PtsPremium Member
    edited October 2 Premium Member
    Vaulk said:
    @Erfisflat,

    I'd say that exercising your freedom of speech against someone who you believe has foolishly exercised their freedom of speech is fairly American.  When people don't like other people's particular stupidity...they speak out against it...they call it out...hell there's entire television programs dedicated to making fun of and shaming people for saying and doing stupid things.
    It's a good thing I don't care what people think, especially for not "falling in line". I don't understand what "foolishly exercised their freedom of speech" means though.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 671 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Ran out of kindling, headed to Wal-Mart for some more dyed cloth
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • As the next best thing to a Martian Observer ( a European) I respect people's right not to be made demonstrate respect to something that they don't feel respect for. Respect should be earned rather than enforced, is my viewpoint. An athlete is employed because of his athletic ability rather than his political beliefs. My understanding is that the American Government paid taxpayer money to politicise sports by actively paying NFL teams to have athletes stand for the anthem. Well it looks like that has back-fired and instead they should make some effort to address the concerns of its citizens.
  • WakeWake 119 Pts
    @hughesmachine - 660,000 white men died to give blacks their freedom. In every corner of life it was WHITE men who stood up to support the freedom of blacks. I am an old man now and I remember when blacks had to sit in the back of the bus. That wasn't because there was any white demand for it but because that's the way it had always been - I was there the day when an old black woman got on the bus with a large bag of groceries and just couldn't face walking to the back of the bus. It was a middle aged WHITE man who immediately jumped to his feet and offered the lady a seat. When the black driver was afraid to drive away because he might get in trouble it was the WHITE men who yelled at him to get going. They couldn't care less if blacks were sitting around them. In the movie "Hidden Figures" we had the same attempt at blaming the white man for doing nothing more than was always done - having separate toilet facilities. It was a WHITE man who stopped that. And the inference that a white manager was taking credit for the work of his black underlings seemed to skip over the point that ALL managers take credit for the work of all of their underlings - that it is unusual to give credit to someone working for a manager. I, as a manager, gave credit to all of my people who made advances for the company and it was frowned on not because anyone wanted to take credit for other's work but that people were HIRED to perform their jobs competently and managers simply oversaw this.

    What we have seen is pure racism from a segment of blacks that blame anything and everything on racism of the whites. As a Slav I have seen White men blamed for everything under the sun and I have recognized that it virtually ALL is to give advantage to someone else and not to stop any real racism of whites.

    I fought in a war for my country. And the flag and the national anthem represents my country. If you disrespect that you disrespect all that EVERYONE has received from the freedom of this country.

    When in history has there ever been a better one?
  • FascismFascism 107 Pts
    They have their right to kneel, but I don't support it. It is anti-american, and they no reason to do this. 
  • @Wake I thank you for your service, however, you gave them the right to protest
    Erfisflat
  • @Fascism It's freedom of speech. forcing people to stand for the anthem would be anti-american
    Erfisflat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 671 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Fascism said:
    They have their right to kneel, but I don't support it. It is anti-american, and they no reason to do this. 

    Not everyone born in America supports their government. Nationalism is a horrible idea.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 671 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member

    Me during the national anthem 
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 671 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @wake said "I fought in a war for my country. And the flag and the national anthem represents my country. If you disrespect that you disrespect all that EVERYONE has received from the freedom of this country."

    I'd like to thank you for fighting for my freedom to sit during the national anthem. If it weren't for you I'd not have the freedom to burn this here flag. I'd salute you, but I only pay reverence to my parents and God.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • VaulkVaulk 253 Pts
    edited October 5
    @Erfisflat,

    Everyone has the right to sit during the national anthem, kneel, bend over...whatever you'd like.  The right is solidly secured and no one has even attempted to deny that right.  What people seem to forget in this country is that this freedom works both ways.  You have the right to kneel......and the rest of the country has the right to ridicule you, shame you, speak out against you, say that it's unethical, say that it's wrong.  We have the right to kneel indeed, and we have the right to call you a despicable person for doing it.  Yes sir, our freedoms are still intact, but what confuses me are the supporters of the kneeling Football players screaming about freedom when no one's freedom has been infringed upon...

    People are making this out to be a case of denial of freedom when it's not.  This is a case of asinine people exercising their freedoms and being shamed for the method in which they're doing it.  Sounds like a bunch of people exercising freedom to me.  If you think that no one should be able to shame you for the way you exercise your freedom...you could always go live in a dictatorship that leans your way and would have the police beat down anyone who publicly disagreed with your protest.  But in America, we have the freedom to ridicule and shame other people for the way they exercise their freedoms.

    #freedom101
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • ErfisflatErfisflat 671 PtsPremium Member
    edited October 5 Premium Member
    Vaulk said:
    @Erfisflat,

    Everyone has the right to sit during the national anthem, kneel, bend over...whatever you'd like.  The right is solidly secured and no one has even attempted to deny that right.  What people seem to forget in this country is that this freedom works both ways.  You have the right to kneel......and the rest of the country has the right to ridicule you, shame you, speak out against you, say that it's unethical, say that it's wrong.  We have the right to kneel indeed, and we have the right to call you a despicable person for doing it.  Yes sir, our freedoms are still intact, but what confuses me are the supporters of the kneeling Football players screaming about freedom when no one's freedom has been infringed upon...

    People are making this out to be a case of denial of freedom when it's not.  This is a case of asinine people exercising their freedoms and being shamed for the method in which they're doing it.  Sounds like a bunch of people exercising freedom to me.  If you think that no one should be able to shame you for the way you exercise your freedom...you could always go live in a dictatorship that leans your way and would have the police beat down anyone who publicly disagreed with your protest.  But in America, we have the freedom to ridicule and shame other people for the way they exercise their freedoms.

    #freedom101
    Oh I'm glad you're exercising your right to ridicule others, it's just that I could care less. As Eleanor Roosevelt said:
    “Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.”

    In other words, there are better things to do with your time.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 671 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Vaulk if I gave a steamy pile of goodness what idiots thought about me I wouldn't be here proving the earth is flat.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • VaulkVaulk 253 Pts
    To those who somehow took the statement I made previously (Even the instances where I specifically used the word "You") as directed personally at them...well I'm sorry if it came off that way but it was more directed at the Nancies out there who are shedding buckets of tears over the people of our country shaming them for their actions.  To those who have the mind to disregard it, bravo and we need more thick skinned people like you.  To everyone else
     

    I keep a few of these handy for when people need help sucking it up.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


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