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Trump's Wall is a Bad Idea

Opening Argument

Cost, border disputes, hostilities, etc. Need I go on?
islander507CYDdhartajoecavalrynatbaronsnorthsouthkorea

Status: Open Debate


Arguments

  • @dab2048, good argument! I disagree with your side on the Debate.

    The Wall would decrease drugs entering the border and illegal immigrants entering the border as well. I am not sure what type of wall needs to be built, but one must be done. Currently, the fencing was not working very well and needs to be partially replaced or additional fencing must be put in.
    islander507George_Horse
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • @dab2048, all your points are legit, however just because it's expensive and troublesome doesn't make it a bad idea. We have an issue with existing and incoming illegal immigration. That is causing tremendous issues for our economy, society , and people.  We need to confront this issue and the wall will help to stop the bleeding.  Illegal immigration don't pay taxes, get free medial and other benefits at expense of American tax payers.
    I support the wall.

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  • VaulkVaulk 288 Pts
    Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Barrack Obama and Donald Trump, these are the last 4 Presidents of the United states and while they may have several things in common they all share this:

    They all made it clear that Illegal Immigrants are not allowed here.

    In this regard though, only one of them has even suggested a different approach to Illegal Immigration problems and that's Donald Trump.  Every other President threw money at Border Patrol or redefined the laws to make it appear that more was being done, Obama even went as far as to artificially inflate his deportation numbers by including the illegal immigrants that were simply turned away at the border by border patrol...as if they were caught and sent home...tsk tsk tsk.

    While I'm sure Trump could just toss some cash at Border Patrol or change some legal definitions around...he's actually choosing a different method.  You have to have some respect for this because at least he's not being dishonest like Obama, Bush or Clinton...he's not using the guaranteed failure method that's been used by his past 3 predecessors. 

    So what if the wall doesn't actually stop illegal immigration?  Then what does it do?  Well, it serves as a symbol for one, it represents the United States' position on illegal immigration.  The wall says: Get in line with the rest of the people who respect our Laws.  After the wall is built, no one will ever be able to throw money at Border Patrol again to solve the problem of illegal immigration...the next president will HAVE to step it up and do something more.  Trump has effectively deleted this worthless fluff tactic from the playbook of crooked politicians and I for one think he's pretty amazing for it...it takes alot of guts to be the only guy willing to be an asshole when it comes time to make tough choices.
    agsr
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • dab2048 said:
    Cost, border disputes, hostilities, etc. Need I go on?
    As no one appears to agree with your position, you probably should go on.
    Fascism
  • "Trump's Wall is a Bad Idea"


    What other alternatives are there? What would you do? Yes the wall isn't a perfect idea, but let's develop plans to see how we can make it work.






    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." ~Gene Roddenberry


  • FascismFascism 230 Pts
    edited October 4
    Why are we spending money on deterring illegal immigrants when we can make a profit out of them? We should rig the drafting system and put them all in the military. We should give them jobs where they're barely payed anything (we already do this, but we need to do this more.). We should take illegal immigrant criminals and sell their organs to hospitals. 

    I'm a legal immigrant and my family is still struggling to get a citizenship. It boils my blood to see these down syndrome retards easily walk into the country. 
    George_Horse
  • Fascism said:
    Why are we spending money on deterring illegal immigrants when we can make a profit out of them? We should rig the drafting system and put them all in the military. We should give them jobs where they're barely payed anything (we already do this, but we need to do this more.). We should take illegal immigrant criminals and sell their organs to hospitals. 

    I'm a legal immigrant and my family is still struggling to get a citizenship. It boils my blood to see these down syndrome retards easily walk into the country. 
    "We should give them jobs where they're barely payed anything" 

    What?
    Fascism
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." ~Gene Roddenberry


  • FascismFascism 230 Pts
    @George_Horse What do you mean by "What?" Please clarify instead of just giving a thumbs down with no argument. 

    (not trying to be cocky or impudent. Just asking in a polite tone.)
  • The wall has been approved by a house council for $10,000,000,000 and will be going to the house floor.

    Erfisflat
  • almost half of illegal immigration is done by plane, building a wall isn't the proper way to deal with the issue. 
    ErfisflatFascismGhosty
  • @harrison_duncan ; It would be a lot easier to round up less than half the illegal immigrants than what we have to deal with currently.  The wall is a great start.
    George_Horse
  • VaulkVaulk 288 Pts
    I've said it before and I can say it again, the cheapest way to get the illegal immigrants out is to make it impossible for them to be here.  As harsh as it might be, medical services, subsidized programs, employment...all of these things could EASILY be modified to specifically exclude illegal immigrants from taking advantage of.  Once the loopholes are closed, as Ann Coulter said: "They'll go back the same way they got here".
    FascismGhosty
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • FascismFascism 230 Pts
    @Vaulk I strongly agree with this. They come here seeking opportunity. We should take it away from them. 
  • VaulkVaulk 288 Pts
    edited October 6
    @Fascism,

    It's rough, but I truly think the "All or nothing" approach is the way to go.  Forget spending millions to round them up, start introducing H E A V Y fines and fees for employing illegal immigrants.

    Example:
    The U.S. Department of Labor began retraining 2,000 of its employees today to carry out informal business investigations into the unlawful employment of Illegal Immigrants.  If successful then as early as March, 2018 we could see businesses who employ these Illegal Immigrants suffering fines and fees starting at $5,000 per illegal immigrant...all the way up to $25,000.  DoL employees will screen suspected businesses for proper paperwork and ensure reasonable efforts were made to ensure citizenship status was confirmed prior to offering employment to their workers.  Furthermore the DoL is being authorized to penalize employees who have knowledge of illegal immigrants in their place of work with fines up to $10,000.

    The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services announced today that, effective immediately, all subsidized programs will no longer be provided to illegal immigrants or offspring of illegal immigrants.  Social Security payments for "Anchor babies" are expected to be halted completely by mid 2018 with new regulations being passed currently to ensure only American Citizens be allowed to qualify for the programs.

    Effective immediately, the FDA policies regarding drug administration in the U.S. are under revision with expectations for final results at the end of 2017.  With these changes will be new polices requiring proof of citizenship in order to receive a prescription.  Hospital administered drugs won't be affected by the new policies however, physicians and Doctors will face heavy criminal penalties for writing prescriptions to patients who are not U.S. Citizens or do no hold a current work Visa.

    Now I just thought this up in the last 10 minutes but this is what news at 9 would sound like if we were to implement effective illegal immigration control.  Call me heartless but I don't support anything that's illegal...including illegal immigration.




    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Vaulk said:
    @Fascism,

    It's rough, but I truly think the "All or nothing" approach is the way to go.  Forget spending millions to round them up, start introducing H E A V Y fines and fees for employing illegal immigrants.

    Example:
    The U.S. Department of Labor began retraining 2,000 of its employees today to carry out informal business investigations into the unlawful employment of Illegal Immigrants.  If successful then as early as March, 2018 we could see businesses who employ these Illegal Immigrants suffering fines and fees starting at $5,000 per illegal immigrant...all the way up to $25,000.  DoL employees will screen suspected businesses for proper paperwork and ensure reasonable efforts were made to ensure citizenship status was confirmed prior to offering employment to their workers.  Furthermore the DoL is being authorized to penalize employees who have knowledge of illegal immigrants in their place of work with fines up to $10,000.

    The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services announced today that, effective immediately, all subsidized programs will no longer be provided to illegal immigrants or offspring of illegal immigrants.  Social Security payments for "Anchor babies" are expected to be halted completely by mid 2018 with new regulations being passed currently to ensure only American Citizens be allowed to qualify for the programs.

    Effective immediately, the FDA policies regarding drug administration in the U.S. are under revision with expectations for final results at the end of 2017.  With these changes will be new polices requiring proof of citizenship in order to receive a prescription.  Hospital administered drugs won't be affected by the new policies however, physicians and Doctors will face heavy criminal penalties for writing prescriptions to patients who are not U.S. Citizens or do no hold a current work Visa.

    Now I just thought this up in the last 10 minutes but this is what news at 9 would sound like if we were to implement effective illegal immigration control.  Call me heartless but I don't support anything that's illegal...including illegal immigration.




    That last bit, you don't support anything that illegal? Seriously? What if you lived in a state where cannabis was still illegal and your child was suffering from severe seizures and the only thing that helped was cannabis? In cases like these, the law becomes inneficient or outdated? I know this is a bit off topic here, but...
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • WakeWake 121 Pts
    @George_Horse - I hope you are aware that President Trump has never made ONE CHANGE on US laws concerning illegal aliens. The laws have been unchanged for generations.

    My question is: why are you implying that Trump is bad for following the laws while Obama was good for breaking the laws to pieces despite objections of Congress?
  • WakeWake 121 Pts
    @Erfisflat - cannabis doesn't stop seizures and as someone that has to take anti-seizure medication you can be sure of that. Virtually ALL of the so-called medical uses for cannabis are nothing more than a pack of BS from users. And the small amount of the medical profession that are saying that are probably users as well.

    And I can absolutely guarantee you that it is a gateway drug. I played in rock bands and every single member aside from me used and went on to harder drugs and every single one of them is dead today. And most died in their late 40's.
    Erfisflat
  • @Vaulk Even if such measures were feasible, they still wouldn't stop drug mules from being sent across the border.
  • VaulkVaulk 288 Pts
    edited October 7
    @Erfisflat ,

    And what if frogs could fly?  C'mon, we're talking about illegal immigrants.  The status of legality in regards to cannabis in completely and totally irrelevant to the topic at hand.  I mean we might as well bring up dinosaurs if we're going to go down this line of debating.  I mean seriously...what about dinosaurs?  I've posted this numerous times but for the sake of the argument:

    The fact that it's illegal to cross into our Country is not simply a matter of "You didn't do it the right way".  This isn't a frivolous law.  We have these laws in place for, not good, but great reasons.

    1.  Ever heard of Ebola, Cholera, Rotavirus, Malaria, Hepatitis, MRSA, CRE, Tuberculosis?  These are diseases that are not only contagious but are also rampant in 3rd World Countries where there's either no disease control or very little.  How would you feel if tomorrow your youngest daughter came home from Daycare with Tuberculosis?  When Immigrants cross the border legally they are screened for these diseases and subsequently denied entry if they test positive.  Of course none of that matters when you cross illegally.  "Breitbart London reports how “London is now the tuberculosis capital of Europe thanks to mass migration.  We now have cases of the Zika virus in Texas, Illinois and Florida.  The New York Times reports the virus made its first appearance in South America in May 2015, just as we were in the middle of the continuing “surge” of illegal immigrants into this nation".
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jan/25/tammy-bruce-when-foreigners-bring-disease-across-t/

    2. The U.S. border doesn't just represent an invisible line that we don't want people to cross without knowledge and consent.  The border represents our National Security.  If you post a sign on your property that says "No Trespassing" then at what point is the security of your property compromised?  Is it when someone enters your house without your permission or knowledge or is it when someone steps foot past your property line?  Transgressing against our Border laws is a transgression against our National Security regardless of intent.  If you trespass by hopping the fence onto someone else's property and get caught by law enforcement officials...do you think they'll go easy on you because you "Didn't mean any harm"?  Our OWN GOVERNMENT will crush it's own people for trespassing but somehow we're supposed to be ok with foreigners doing it?

    3.  American people come first...always.  I have no devotion, no loyalty, no sympathy and I owe nothing to Illegal Immigrants who broke our laws to gain access to our Country.  I shouldn't have to pay a solitary dime to support Illegal Immigrants, we already have enough lethargic leeches in our society that we ALL pay to support in one way or another.  I don't want my hard earned dollars being tossed to people who aren't even Americans.  We look out for our own FIRST and FOREMOST.  So I refuse to accept the pity card from foreigners while our own people are suffering.  There are approximately 400,000 Children in the U.S. foster system, of which over 100,000 are waiting for adoption.  There are approximately 1.56 million homeless people in our Country.  We have an incredibly honorable demographic in our Country that's probably more deserving than any other and somehow has been left to ROT in situations that PRISONERS don't even have to worry about.  Our Veterans have been hung out to dry, literally in every sense of the phrase "Left to die" and our LAST PRESIDENT didn't GAF.  It took over 200 veterans dying while waiting to receive medical treatment to get anyone's heads to turn.  So everyone will have to excuse me if I seem too preoccupied with legitimate American priorities to be concerned in the least about what foreign criminals need from the U.S.





    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • VaulkVaulk 288 Pts
    @CYDdharta ,

    You sir are very correct, it won't stop it and probably wouldn't even affect it in the least.  Which is why I wouldn't ever attempt to implement my proposals to solve the drug problem at the border.  My proposals were for the illegal immigration issue.  You can hardly call drug running "Immigration" as the runners most likely either already live in the United States or have no intention of staying...I mean how are you going to continue running drugs if you stay permanently in the U.S.?
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Vaulk said:
    @CYDdharta ,

    You sir are very correct, it won't stop it and probably wouldn't even affect it in the least.  Which is why I wouldn't ever attempt to implement my proposals to solve the drug problem at the border.  My proposals were for the illegal immigration issue.  You can hardly call drug running "Immigration" as the runners most likely either already live in the United States or have no intention of staying...I mean how are you going to continue running drugs if you stay permanently in the U.S.?
    They would continue running drugs by sending new mules, like they do now.  Unless and until corruption in the US catches up with what it is in central and south America, there would still be plenty of volunteers to run drugs across the border and live at the mercy of those willing to provide the goods and service the government would not.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 811 Pts
    edited October 7
    @wake
    "Cannabis doesn't stop seizures and as someone that has to take anti-seizure medication you can be sure of that."



    "Virtually ALL of the so-called medical uses for cannabis are nothing more than a pack of BS from users. And the small amount of the medical profession that are saying that are probably users as well. "

    Even the US Government quietly admits that cannabis cures even cancer, you seem to make a lot of claims with no valid evidence behind them, you do realize this is being dishonest right?

    https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/patient/cannabis-pdq

    "And I can absolutely guarantee you that it is a gateway drug. I played in rock bands and every single member aside from me used and went on to harder drugs and every single one of them is dead today. And most died in their late 40's."

    I can absolutely guarantee that it's not. I've used cannabis as treatment for anxiety for almost 20 years, and, though I've tried other drugs, mostly due to peer pressure, I've not done enough of anything to develop any habits. Alcohol was the first drug I've tried, so technically, and this goes for most people, that was the gateway drug.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.


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  • The cost is nothing compared to the savings we will have in not providing welfare to illegals.  Besides, we can simply cut welfare distribution schemes for the money.  What border disputes.  The U.S. and Mexico know where the boundary lines is, and if Mexico does not like where we put our wall, they can send their army, such as it is, to tell us about it.  Is this all you have?
  • The wal has to be built. There are illegal immigrants coming into the country and taking tax payer’s money. This should be stopped and the wall can stop it completely or most of it. The cost of the wall is not high compared to the amount of money illegal immigrants may be taking possibly.
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