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The Earth is flat 4.0

Opening Argument

edited November 2017 in Earth Science
(2 of the other debates were closed and 1 was deleted due to uncivil conduct. Please do not join this debate if you intend to troll)

Do you have any evidence we're monkeys on a spinning ball? Because I've seen none besides contradictory pseudoscience 

Read this debate.  http://debateisland.com/discussion/1372/formal-debate-the-earth-is-flat ;



Answer down below if the Earth is flat:

 
yolostideaarongnamemcnamejoecavalrywalterbaErfisflat
  1. Earths shape?

    20 votes
    1. Flat
      35.00%
    2. Ball
      65.00%
 
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Arguments

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 847 Pts
    edited October 2017
    "The physics of orbital movement ( i.e. a satellite orbiting the earth ) would be impossible in a flat plane."

    Yes, satellites are a myth. There are balloons drones, and of course, an ever-growing wealth of towers. So in agreement,  "The physics of orbital movement ( i.e. a satellite orbiting the earth ) would be impossible in a flat plane."

    "Geosynchronous satellites would be impossible."

    It's just a balloon.

    https://www.nasa.gov/scientificballoons

    https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/news/FactSheets/FS-098-DFRC.html

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NASA_aircraft

    " Geodetic surveys maintain their accuracy by  adjusting for the earth's curvature."

    No, they don't. I'm a surveyor. Some might say they do, but only to appear smart, or is coached. Chris van Matre is a 30+ year professional surveyor making flat earth videos 



    (Edit: link to his channel was dead, link his latest video)
    This guy called a few surveying companies, most said the don't, the others that said they did, couldn't properly explain how, and were at a loss when asked about the math.




    "Other proofs are available."

    Next.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • "Ok there is just no way that Earth is flat.

    Because youve seen it, with your own eye, right? A million times a day on the teli.

    "There are two main reasons. One of these reason is that how do people travel around the world if the world is flat, apparently they would just fall right off.

    Circumnavigation is just going around the disc, with magnetic North at it's center. Up until recently, going south as far as you could was impossible, due to severe conditions. Go as far as you can south, find the edge you so desperately seek.

    "Also, since we've known that Earth is round which started believing in when Aristotle was alive which was what 244 B.C.E?

    It was highly debated for a long time. Once it was implemented into the education sytem, it's no longer questioned. Aristotle thought he saw boats over the horizon. An optical illusion, due to refraction. His word usually stuck, regardless of truth.

    "We have known that the Earth is round for thousands of years, yet all of the people that believe that the Earth is flat haven't done anything to prove their point and are just starting controversy.

    I have done very much to prove my point. The fact that you completely ignore my arguments gives me an idea as to why you would ask me questions I've answered multiple times. If you're going to debate the flat earth, at least read the rebuttals in the debates before asking trivial questions. 

    "So anyone taht the thinks the world is flat? Go to the end of the world and prove it."

    Too cold.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • "I have found that whenever you two see points that you cannot refute you seems to try to focus on one point of the post and change the subject.For example a user refuted one of your points, and in the process called one of you a moron, you chose to focus on that and completely avoid the refutation. I have finished reading one of the other debates and found no answers, so I'll read the other one too(Alos, why is the reason for having multiple debates, is it to make an excuse for every argument that comes up?). I haven't participated yet, so I believe it would be no trouble for you two to just copy paste your refutations here to respond to me.

    To make this clear, I don't think you two are trolling, I just find it annoying that whenever someone cited NASA you immediately scream appeal to authority fallacy, or some unsourced claim on how NASA said they fake their pictures. Let me make this clear, If we cite  government organization who researches space, and the earth, that is a not an appeal to authority fallacy. An appeal to authority claim is: "Using an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument." NASA is an authority on space. 

    I just wonder what would the government gain from telling us the world is round when it is really flat? What you are telling me is that every scientific authority in every country(Including North Korea, Iran, and other enemies of the west) are all lying to the world's population, for what reason? I expect a refutation, or at least a sentence or two on how each point I made in my post is wrong, or does not prove the earth is round/cannot be flat."

    I thought that pointing you to the basic, very fallacious arguments and their refutation would be enough. Seriously,  if your going to expect to debate against a model, at least do a few minutes of real research. I'll start a copy paste post up soon.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • @Erfisflat
    You pointed me to two debates with hundreds of threads.
  • Those are the basic points and refutations aside from the last post, which I'm still hoping I don't have to spend probably an hour copy pasting, and the user will politely read the debate I pointed to. I've very little time left.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 847 Pts
    edited October 2017
    http://www.debateisland.com/discussion/930/the-earth-is-flat/p1

    First two pages

    (Edit: the refutations, after rereading, are a bit further in the debate, around the 4th-5th page.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • My plans just got changed, I'll have some time to get to rebuttals if needed. No responses yet, I'm hoping some basic research is getting done for the newcomers.
    SilverishGoldNova
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • If the Earth was flat, airplane, etc. wouldn’t be able to travel around he world.
    SilverishGoldNova
  • yolostide said:
    If the Earth was flat, airplane, etc. wouldn’t be able to travel around he world.
    Good job man.  *sigh*
    SilverishGoldNova
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • Erfisflat said:
    "The physics of orbital movement ( i.e. a satellite orbiting the earth ) would be impossible in a flat plane."

    Yes, satellites are a myth. There are balloons drones, and of course, and ever-growing wealth of towers. So in agreement,  "The physics of orbital movement ( i.e. a satellite orbiting the earth ) would be impossible in a flat plane."

    "Geosynchronous satellites would be impossible. 

    It's just a balloon.

    https://www.nasa.gov/scientificballoons

    https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/news/FactSheets/FS-098-DFRC.html

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NASA_aircraft

    " Geodetic surveys maintain their accuracy by  adjusting for the earth's curvature."

    No, they don't. I'm a surveyor. Some might say they do, but only to appear smart, or is coached. Chris van Matre is a 30+ year professional surveyor making flat earth videos 



    (Edit: link to his channel was dead, link his latest video)
    This guy called a few surveying companies, most said the don't, the others that said they did, couldn't properly explain how, and were at a loss when asked about the math.




    "Other proofs are available."

    Next.

    docmatrix This is a rebuttal to your argument

    Erfisflat said:
    "Ok there is just no way that Earth is flat.

    Because youve seen it, with your own eye, right? A million times a day on the teli.

    "There are two main reasons. One of these reason is that how do people travel around the world if the world is flat, apparently they would just fall right off.

    Circumnavigation is just going around the disc, with magnetic North at it's center. Up until recently, going south as far as you could was impossible, due to severe conditions. Go as far as you can south, find the edge you so desperately seek.

    "Also, since we've known that Earth is round which started believing in when Aristotle was alive which was what 244 B.C.E?

    It was highly debated for a long time. Once it was implemented into the education sytem, it's no longer questioned. Aristotle thought he saw boats over the horizon. An optical illusion, due to refraction. His word usually stuck, regardless of truth.

    "We have known that the Earth is round for thousands of years, yet all of the people that believe that the Earth is flat haven't done anything to prove their point and are just starting controversy.

    I have done very much to prove my point. The fact that you completely ignore my arguments gives me an idea as to why you would ask me questions I've answered multiple times. If you're going to debate the flat earth, at least read the rebuttals in the debates before asking trivial questions. 

    "So anyone taht the thinks the world is flat? Go to the end of the world and prove it."

    Too cold.
    @averyapro And this is a rebuttal to yours

     
  • Erfisflat said:
    "The physics of orbital movement ( i.e. a satellite orbiting the earth ) would be impossible in a flat plane."

    Yes, satellites are a myth. There are balloons drones, and of course, and ever-growing wealth of towers. So in agreement,  "The physics of orbital movement ( i.e. a satellite orbiting the earth ) would be impossible in a flat plane."

    "Geosynchronous satellites would be impossible. 

    It's just a balloon.

    https://www.nasa.gov/scientificballoons

    https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/news/FactSheets/FS-098-DFRC.html

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NASA_aircraft

    " Geodetic surveys maintain their accuracy by  adjusting for the earth's curvature."

    No, they don't. I'm a surveyor. Some might say they do, but only to appear smart, or is coached. Chris van Matre is a 30+ year professional surveyor making flat earth videos 



    (Edit: link to his channel was dead, link his latest video)
    This guy called a few surveying companies, most said the don't, the others that said they did, couldn't properly explain how, and were at a loss when asked about the math.




    "Other proofs are available."

    Next.

    docmatrix This is a rebuttal to your argument

    Erfisflat said:
    "Ok there is just no way that Earth is flat.

    Because youve seen it, with your own eye, right? A million times a day on the teli.

    "There are two main reasons. One of these reason is that how do people travel around the world if the world is flat, apparently they would just fall right off.

    Circumnavigation is just going around the disc, with magnetic North at it's center. Up until recently, going south as far as you could was impossible, due to severe conditions. Go as far as you can south, find the edge you so desperately seek.

    "Also, since we've known that Earth is round which started believing in when Aristotle was alive which was what 244 B.C.E?

    It was highly debated for a long time. Once it was implemented into the education sytem, it's no longer questioned. Aristotle thought he saw boats over the horizon. An optical illusion, due to refraction. His word usually stuck, regardless of truth.

    "We have known that the Earth is round for thousands of years, yet all of the people that believe that the Earth is flat haven't done anything to prove their point and are just starting controversy.

    I have done very much to prove my point. The fact that you completely ignore my arguments gives me an idea as to why you would ask me questions I've answered multiple times. If you're going to debate the flat earth, at least read the rebuttals in the debates before asking trivial questions. 

    "So anyone taht the thinks the world is flat? Go to the end of the world and prove it."

    Too cold.
    @averyapro And this is a rebuttal to yours

    I think they're done.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • @Erfisflat Coveny says he is going to ban people who disagree with him whenever terriblymadewebsite is completed.
     
  • @SilverishGoldNova can you clarify the poll question? There can't possibly be 100 percent of 5 people that agree the earth is flat.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • Erfisflat said:
    @SilverishGoldNova can you clarify the poll question? There can't possibly be 100 percent of 5 people that agree the earth is flat.
    K
     
  • @Erfisflat Coveny says he is going to ban people who disagree with him whenever terriblymadewebsite is completed.
    What do you think? 
     
  • feafea 76 Pts
    @Erfisflat Coveny says he is going to ban people who disagree with him whenever terriblymadewebsite is completed.
    What do you think? 
    Sad...
    Erfisflat
  • @Erfisflat Coveny says he is going to ban people who disagree with him whenever terriblymadewebsite is completed.
    What do you think? 
    Uninterested.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 847 Pts
    edited October 2017
    Anyone interested in debating against the flat earth is welcome to comment. Unless you agree that the earth is flat. Then you're welcome to join us. Or join metabunk or reddit, where they will all agree with you.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • edited October 2017
    @Erfisflat Well I think you should allow other people besides us 2 to defend the flat Earth. There was a serious flat Earth subreddit but it got taken over by globers looking to troll. Metabunk is nothing more than an echo chamber. The admins of metabunk are known to ban anyone who disagrees with them, and it is considered a major violation to believe in a flat Earth there. 
    Erfisflat
     
  • @Erfisflat Well I think you should allow other people besides us 2 to defend the flat Earth. There was a serious flat Earth subreddit but it got taken over by globers looking to troll. Metabunk is nothing more than an echo chamber. The admins of metabunk are known to ban anyone who disagrees with them, and it is considered a major violation to believe in a flat Earth there. 
    Fine with anyone speaking up anywhere in favor of or against a flat earth. The general attitude of the discussion unfortunately advances to logical fallacies because this is a core belief, and the progress of the discussion either ends abruptly (ahem @docmatrix and @averyapro) or is reversed.

    Why are people so against The idea that the earth is flat? It's synonymous with "stupid".

    The intelligent ones who realize that there is far more conclusive arguments in favor of the flat earth than for the globe seem to disappear suddenly. 



    SilverishGoldNova
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • @MissDMeanor I mean no disrespect, but it is very hard to explain the fundamental things and laws of nature to sound solid. 
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • Ok, no more takers tonight? Going to bed. Nite all.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • "Let me make this clear, If we cite  government organization who researches space, and the earth, that is a not an appeal to authority fallacy. An appeal to authority claim is: "Using an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument." NASA is an authority on space. "

    An argument from authority, also called an appeal to authority, popularized by John Locke as the argumentum ad verecundiam, is a form of argument in which expert opinion supports the argument's conclusion. It is well known as a fallacy, though it is most often used in a cogent form.

    == Structure ==
    The argument is a defeasible argument and a statistical syllogism taking the form:
    X is an expert on subject Y,
    X claims A. (A is within subject Y.)
    Therefore, A is probably true.

    == History ==
    John Locke, in his 1690 Essay Concerning Human Understanding, was the first recorded to identify argumentum ad verecundiam as a specific category of argument. He noted that it can be misused by taking advantage of the "respect" and "submission" of the reader or listener to persuade them to accept the conclusion. Over time, logic textbooks started to adopt and change from Locke's terminology to refer more specifically to fallacious uses of the argument from authority.
    By the late 20th century, logic textbooks had shifted to a less blanket approach to these arguments, often referring to the fallacy as the "Argument from Unqualified Authority" or the "Argument from Unreliable Authority". Some works, however continue to eschew any distinction between the fallacious and sound version. A 2012 guidebook on philosophical logic describes appeals to authority not merely as arguments from unqualified or unreliable authority, but as arguments from authority in general. In addition to appeals lacking evidence of the authority's reliability, the book states that arguments from authority are fallacious if there is a lack of "good evidence" that the authorities appealed to possess "adequate justification for their views."
    With the rise of the Internet, sites focused on the subject of fallacies began to appear. Among them, The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, edited by Bradley Dowden states that "Most reasoning of this kind is not fallacious, and much of our knowledge properly comes from listening to authorities. However, appealing to authority as a reason to believe something is fallacious whenever the authority appealed to is not really an authority in this particular subject, when the authority cannot be trusted to tell the truth, when authorities disagree on this subject (except for the occasional lone wolf), when the reasoner misquotes the authority, and so forth." The "Fallacies" entry by Hans Hansen in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy similarly states that "Fundamentally, the fallacy involves accepting as evidence for a proposition the pronouncement of someone who is taken to be an authority but is not really an authority. This can happen when non-experts parade as experts in fields in which they have no special competence—when, for example, celebrities endorse commercial products or social movements. Similarly, when there is controversy, and authorities are divided, it is an error to base one’s view on the authority of just some of them."
    In the context of law, opinion on the appeal to authority has historically been listed as a valid argument as often as a fallacious argument.

    == Appeal to non-authorities ==
    Fallacious arguments from authority are frequently the result of citing a non-authority as an authority. An example of the fallacy of appealing to an authority in an unrelated field would be citing Albert Einstein as an authority for a determination on religion when his primary expertise was in physics. The body of attributed authorities might not even welcome their citation, such as with the "More Doctors Smoke Camels" ad campaign.
    It is also often a fallacious ad hominem argument to argue that a person presenting statements lacks authority and thus their arguments do not need to be considered. Similarly to the appeal to authority, the ad hominem is not always fallacious, such as when the argument points out that an authority being appealed to is not an expert in the subject at hand.
    Other related fallacious arguments assume that a person without status or authority is inherently reliable. For instance, the appeal to poverty is the fallacy of thinking that someone is more likely to be correct because they are poor. When an argument holds that a conclusion is likely to be true precisely because the one who holds or is presenting it lacks authority, it is a fallacious appeal to the common man.
    However, these are still not the only recognized forms of appeal to authority. For example, a 2012 guidebook on philosophical logic describes appeals to authority not merely as arguments from unqualified or unreliable authority, but as arguments from authority in general. In addition to appeals lacking evidence of the authority's reliability, the book states that arguments from authority are fallacious if there is a lack of "good evidence" that the authorities appealed to possess "adequate justification for their views."
    The "Fallacies" entry by Bradley Dowden in The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy states that "appealing to authority as a reason to believe something is fallacious when authorities disagree on this subject (except for the occasional lone wolf)" The "Fallacies" entry by Hans Hansen in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy similarly states that "when there is controversy, and authorities are divided, it is an error to base one’s view on the authority of just some of them."

    == Examples ==

    === Valid forms ===
    The valid form of argument is one in which a recognized and knowledgeable authority on the relevant subject is appealed to by citing a statement by that authority. This is a form of inductive reasoning in that the conclusion is not logically certain, but likely. Examples include following the treatments prescribed by a medical doctor, or citing a respected author to establish claims of fact in a written work.

    === Fallacious forms ===
    When misused, the argument typically forms an informal fallacy. This form of the argument occurs when the presumed authority appealed to is compromised in some way; such as being an expert in the wrong subject or is giving views from one side of an active controversy. Some examples of this are citing a popular astrophysicist for claims about molecular biology; an Olympic athlete's endorsement of a product they do not use; or a long retired professor's claims about a current debate in their field. This forms an informal fallacy because the first proposition is untrue.

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • In this case, "Because NASA says so" is essentially an appeal to biased authority fallacy, as the entire yearly budget of just under $20,000,000,000 depends solely on the conclusion.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 847 Pts
    edited October 2017
    I killed the internet again


    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat
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