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Communities

Socialism

Opening Argument

The definition of Socialism used here will be: Democratic and collective ownership of capital, property, and the means of production.

If you care to know (i.e., if you wish to properly refute my personal beliefs), the form of Socialism I advocate is Fabian Socialism, particularly in the form of a cooperative economy.

Give your reasons for or against Socialism here.
ChangeMyViewjoecavalryyolostide
Bis das, si cito das.
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Arguments

  • joecavalryjoecavalry 268 Pts
    edited October 2017
    I believe that socialism is good, because of its great benefits. It helps everybody or a lot of people be possibly financially secure.
    yolostideGeorge_HorseSilverishGoldNova
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • I believe that Socialism is not good. This does not possibly allow full independence for some if not all people and requires taxpayers to possibly pay for others.
  • I believe that socialism is good, because of its great benefits. It helps everybody or a lot of people be possibly financially secure.
    What do you mean by helping people be financially secure?

    "I believe that Socialism is not good. This does not possibly allow full independence for some if not all people and requires taxpayers to possibly pay for others. "
    What does full independence require? Why does Socialism inhibit it?
    Why would taxpayers have to pay for others?
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • FascismFascism 256 Pts
    edited October 2017
    Capitalist values and socialist values should be mixed. Too much of anything is bad. 

    What policies do you support in specific? 
  • Fascism said:
    Capitalist values and socialist values should be mixed. Too much of anything is bad. 

    What policies do you support in specific? 
    I'm a Fabian Socialist. I believe in gradual reform through the democratic process with the goal of establishing either: a state-ran economy (I'm still iffy about this, but I'm still considering it.) or a cooperative economy (where cooperations and the like are not allowed).

    For specific policies, I'm afraid I don't understand the point of the question.
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • @DrCereal
    "For specific policies, I'm afraid I don't understand the point of the question."

    For example:
    Private businesses shouldn't be allowed
    Progressive tax systems
    free secondary education
    authoritarianism

    This is basically to understand exactly which type of socialism you support. Fabian socialism is broad and there might be too many misunderstandings and assumptions if I argue with you without knowing exactly what you believe in. I might even end up agreeing with many of your beliefs. 

    I support state-run economies. I call it a command economy, but they are the same thing. There shouldn't be too much of it, but at the right amount it is efficient. 
    I don't believe in a cooperative economy because the government would have to be too authoritarian to enforce it. Also since people won't accept it easily, it will be hard to use gradual reform. 
  • DrCerealDrCereal 110 Pts
    edited October 2017
    Fascism said:
    @DrCereal
    "For specific policies, I'm afraid I don't understand the point of the question."

    For example:
    Private businesses shouldn't be allowed
    Progressive tax systems
    free secondary education
    authoritarianism

    This is basically to understand exactly which type of socialism you support. Fabian socialism is broad and there might be too many misunderstandings and assumptions if I argue with you without knowing exactly what you believe in. I might even end up agreeing with many of your beliefs. 

    I support state-run economies. I call it a command economy, but they are the same thing. There shouldn't be too much of it, but at the right amount it is efficient. 
    I don't believe in a cooperative economy because the government would have to be too authoritarian to enforce it. Also since people won't accept it easily, it will be hard to use gradual reform. 
    Authoritarianism is not a policy.

    "government would have to be too authoritarian to enforce it."
    I disagree because I'm pretty sure the government already has rules for how you set up a business. My view is that they implement one more: you must give fair democratic control to the workers you decide to hire (if you decide to hire workers).

    "Also since people won't accept it easily, it will be hard to use gradual reform. "
    That's a pretty large assumption to base your argument off of.

    "Private businesses shouldn't be allowed"
    I think I did say that I support this (as long as the business isn't a cooperative).

    As for other policies such as taxes and education, they are irrelevant to the discussion. I support gradually implemented Socialism (i.e., what I have defined in my original post). The majority of policies are irrelevant to that statement.
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • @DrCereal

    "Authoritarianism is not a policy."

    Yes I know, but for my purposes I would have liked to know more about what you believed. Sorry for the weird wording, I couldn't really think of another way to say it. 

    ""government would have to be too authoritarian to enforce it."
    I disagree because I'm pretty sure the government already has rules for how you set up a business. My view is that they implement one more: you must give fair democratic control to the workers you decide to hire (if you decide to hire workers)."

    I don't think I understood what cooperative economies are. Can you explain? 

    "As for other policies such as taxes and education, they are irrelevant to the discussion. I support gradually implemented Socialism (i.e., what I have defined in my original post). The majority of policies are irrelevant to that statement."

    Well then, I don't really disagree with you then. I believe the world should gradually move towards more socialist values. 
  • @DrCereal

    Socialism is immoral because it is premised on theft and envy and give tyrannical powers to the state.  But it is perfectly consistent for the atheist to hate freedom and demand enslavement by the state.

    DrCerealNope
  • @DrCereal

    Socialism is immoral because it is premised on theft and envy and give tyrannical powers to the state.  But it is perfectly consistent for the atheist to hate freedom and demand enslavement by the state.

    You seem to have ignored the definition I have provided for this discussion. Please leave.
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • I like exposing ignorance.
    DrCerealNope
  • I like exposing ignorance.
    Good on ya. I'm afraid that that's not what you have really been doing on this site so far.

    Go to a different argument if you have nothing meaningful to say on this one.
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • Of course, the arrogant ignorant do not know when their ignorance has been exposed.  But i do not expect much from a dude who plots to steal everything his neighbor worked for and who is too lazy to earn it himself.
    DrCerealSilverishGoldNova
  • @ViceRegent
    You have added nothing to the conversation. Kindly leave.
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • Nothing that an arrogant ignorant thief would accept anyway.
    DrCerealSilverishGoldNova
  • ViceRegent If it is legal under the law I don't think it counts as steeling which means it is not theft. 
    MissDMeanor
  • @Nope
    Yes it would be referred to as redistribution. 
    Nope
  • @Nope

    In that case, Hitler did not murder a single Jew, since it was lawful under German law to take their lives.  No, man does not define morality.  To take that which is mine without my consent is stealing, no matter who or what says it is ok.
  • ViceRegent Well he did not really kill Jews himself so yea he did not murder anyone. Technically he did not. So correct! And if you choose to use a different definition for stealing then OK. 
  • @Nope

    Don’t be obtuse.  No one murdered any Jews, since it was lawful to slaughter them.  And it is YOU who use the wrong definition of stealing.  But I expect nothing less from those who cover their neighbor’s stuff.  
  • Covet*
  • ViceRegent I checked 5 dictionary sites before posting and I think I used a correct definition. What does that last part me? But we are getting of topic. I believe socialism can hold people back. Their is to much of a limit to how high quality life you can achieve nomatter how hard you work. I am not one how would like to live in a socialist society. : )
  • Tell me this “definition” that says ITV is no longer theft if it is the majority that wants to take what is yours?
  • VaulkVaulk 337 Pts
    edited November 2017
    Nazi: A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nazi

    Above is an example of the single most prominent instance of Socialism on the Planet Earth.  In terms of sheer population numbers, impact, influence, capital gain, economic growth, power and control... the Nazi party is the prominent example in History.  That's just about all that really "Needs" to be said about Socialism but I'm sure there are smaller and less significant examples of Socialism out there that have had marginal impact or influence in the world.  This idea that "It's not fair because that wasn't TRUE _____(Fill in the blank)" is ridiculous.  Just because someone hasn't come along with your perfect idea of a system of government and applied it in the way you want to see it applied doesn't mean that those who've tried and failed in the past are somehow just "Missing the mark" and that there's nothing wrong with that particular ideology.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Vaulk said:
    Nazi: A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nazi

    Above is an example of the single most prominent instance of Socialism on the Planet Earth.  In terms of sheer population numbers, impact, influence, capital gain, economic growth, power and control... the Nazi party is the prominent example in History.  That's just about all that really "Needs" to be said about Socialism but I'm sure there are smaller and less significant examples of Socialism out there that have had marginal impact or influence in the world.  This idea that "It's not fair because that wasn't TRUE _____(Fill in the blank)" is ridiculous.  Just because someone hasn't come along with your perfect idea of a system of government and applied it in the way you want to see it applied doesn't mean that those who've tried and failed in the past are somehow just "Missing the mark" and that there's nothing wrong with that particular ideology.
    Do you think the People's Democratic Republic of North Korea is actually a democratic republic too?

    Hitler hated socialism and communism and many of his first victims were socialists and communists who have been part of the left-wing political parties opposing him. Left-wing socialist politics were actually very big at the time, hence Hitler's desire to call himself a socialist even if he didn't plan to carry out socialist policies.

    If you can't actually put together a cogent argument against socialism "b-b-b-but Hitler" is a pretty poor substitute and insults the memory of those he killed specifically for being socialist.
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