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Formal Debate: The Earth is flat (again)

Opening Argument

edited November 2017 in Earth Science
http://debateisland.com/discussion/1372/formal-debate-the-earth-is-flat

Same arguments. I had no real refutation last time.

If anyone on either side attempts to change the subject to a baseless claim about gravity they lose automatically. Same for plagiarism  @Erfisflat @Evidence @Fea @Fascism
walterbaMissDMeanorfea
 

Debra AI Prediction

Against
Predicted To Win
78%
Likely
22%
Unlikely

Details +


Points For:

5


Points Against:

0



Votes: 1

Rounds: 3

Time Per Round: 48 Hours Per Round

Round 1

Round 2

Round 3

Voting


Arguments

  • Round 1 | Position: Against
    The Earth is not flat. If the Earth would be flat, airplanes, boats, etc. wouldn’t be able to go to the location they came from possibly. Also, images from NASA and possibly other organizations show that the Earth is not flat.
    SilverishGoldNovafea
  • Round 1 | Position: For
    edited November 2017
    walterba said:
    The Earth is not flat. If the Earth would be flat, airplanes, boats, etc. wouldn’t be able to go to the location they came from possibly. Also, images from NASA and possibly other organizations show that the Earth is not flat.
    I preaddressd that. Please read the original debate. Also

    Ill respond to any more takers in the next round, And I have plenty of time to study.
    feaDrCereal
     
  • Round 1 | Position: Against
    SilverishGoldNova The lack of proof for something can not prove something. Refuting the other side can help support yours but it does nothing to prove it. Many factors play in to air plain flightpatterns. Wind speed, wind direction, air port supplies and room. Flying over the poles does not offer that much less distance. Their are no air ports to make emergency stops. Pleas explain why we have a horizon. Making fake images and admitting they are fake is fine. Their are plenty of reasons to make a fake images. As long as you say they are fake. I apologize if I missed something from the first debate. I can't watch the video on my school computer. : )
    fea
  • Round 1 | Position: Against
    MissDMeanorMissDMeanor 98 Pts
    edited November 2017

    Refutation 1

    You question why rendering technology separated by years produce different images? Or why data collection technology separated by years produce different results? Anyways, let’s say the pictures are fake, how many pictures of the flat earth exist?


    As for fisheye windows:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGtZHHj2w4U

    Man that wing is really curved, amazing right? Somehow the horizon gets distorted but the wings on the plane don’t.


    Refutation 2:

    At the end you see the mirage effects causing some bending to the buildings. You can only see the top half of the building is chicago, on a flat earth we should be able to see all of chicago. Also, where are the Rocky Mountains? You are depriving yourself here.


    Refutation 3:

    I thought plane windows caused distortion?


    Refutation 4:

    https://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/02/21/qantas-tells-perth-to-fly-to-south-africa-via-dubai/


    The map that you provide is an example of a Azimuthal Equidistant Projection, which is a projection of a sphere on a flat map. This is one of the ways of trying to flatten a three dimensional spheroid onto a 2 dimensional surface, and it causes distortion, this can be seen if you have ever tried to flatten an orange peel. Lines of longitude are maintained, the only way you can gauge an accurate distance on this projection of directly from the center. Any distance not directly stemming from the center will be distorted and appear longer the farther away from the center it is.


    The Town of Red Rock in Australia is 30°S, 153°13’E

    The Town of Leaman is 30°S, 115°E

    The angle between is 38°13’ or 38.217

    The actual distance between the two cities is 3687 km

    On the flat earth the 30°S map is 13322 km from the north pole.

    Length of an arc: θπr/180

    (38.217°)*(3.1415)*(13322km)/180 = 8886 km

    This is 2.41 times larger than the actual distance between the two towns. This would make the distance between the two towns have to be 15.81°.

    It is impossible to keep distance the same without inconsistency with the coordinate system, it is impossible to maintain a coordinate system without inconsistencies in distance.


    Quantus flies directly from Sydney to Johannesburg. This is a direct distance of 11,060 km with a flight time of 13 hours and 20 minutes. The average speed of the flight is 830 km/h


    Using the law of cosines,

    d= a2+b2+2abcos(C)

    d= 128942+137592+2(12894)(13759)cos(122.93)

    d=23419, this is twice as far as the actual distance


    The Boeing 727400 used on this flight has a max distance of 13438 km, where is the extra fuel stored? The flight would take you over New Guinea, China, India, the Himalayas, The arabian peninsula, The countries of east Africa. Nobody has ever reporting seeing any of this.

    The two reasonable stops in between the flat earth flight Qantas, the airline company, does not fly at.


    Also, if passengers were to arrive at the scheduled time of 13 hours and 20 minutes, FlatEarth Airlines would have to fly at an average speed of 1756 km/h. The max speed for a 727400 is 988 Kilometers per hour. Please demonstrate a 727400 flying at nearly double its actual speed.


    You Polar Coordinate system is seriously flawed.


    Refutation 5:

    Video 1&4:

    if you notice, the sun SETS at the end of the day - it doesn't just move further away. And if the world was truly flat, you could see much further into the distance, and you would see things reflecting sunlight back to you. Also, in no model does the south pole have daylight for 6 months at a time. Also, we should be able to see the sun, even if we are not directly in it’s rays. The sun would rise northeast and set northwest and would never set due east or due west like it does in our world.

    The sun would have to be in multiple places.


    At the Solstice, the sun is directly over the equator. On a flat earth the expected elevation can be calculated like this:

    Plotted with how it actually is in real world shows the error in the earth being flat: The actual angle of elevation is just the viewers longitude minus 90. There is a large discrepancy.



    On the Solstices, the sun is 23.44 degrees away from the zenith of someone standing on the equator, but on a flat earth model with a close sun this does not occur:


    The difference between the sun on the two solstices is 48.66 degrees, on the flat earth model, this is the difference based on your longitude:

    The only way you can defend your flat earth model is by saying that the tangent function is a government conspiracy created to support the round earth.

    Video 2 :

    The camera was below the tabletop. And the coin was right on the table top. Everyone here knows full well that if you had the camera at the same level as the tabletop with the coin held above it, like you would see with the sun on the flat earth, it wouldn't have disappeared. Basic trigonometry shows that even at the farthest possible distance on the flat earth, the sun would still appear several degrees above the horizon.


    Video 3:

    Norway is just south of the arctic circle and the video is right when it says that even though Norway is south south of the arctic circle, Norwegians can still see the sun at midnight. But saying that this is proof that the earth is flat is ridiculous. You see, at 1 am the sun IS below the horizon. The definition of Midnight sun isn't that you are able to see it at midnight, but rather that the sun never is below the horizon no matter what time it is. And by the way, this video has a huge and crucial error. At the north cape in Norway, the phenomena Midnight sun does NOT occur for only three days, but for approximately two and a half months, from mid may to the end of july. The closer you are to the arctic circle the shorter the period and the closer to the north pole the longer. These are observable facts you can see for yourself if you wanna travel. Also, at this time of year you can observe the sun going completely below the horizon and at the same time see the sun shine at the top of the mountains. In other words, I can observe the sun go completely below the horizon, immediately jump into a helicopter, fly a thousand yards straight up in a few minutes and then be able to see the sun again. This my friends, debunks this video and is absolute proof that the earth is spherical. Also, why is the sun going up and down?


    Video 5:

    You think that trying to show the sun gets a little smaller as it sets, helps flat earth? (it doesn't, and neither does the moon) You are still left  with a sun that is NOT "dwindled to invisibility". It's still "sinking out of sight"!


    Stars

    The star Sadalmelik is on the celestial equator, Polaris is 40’ off the celestial north pole. Sadalmelik will be flying around the north pole around the equator because of a magical force. What would a flat earther see?

    This is, of course, not the case


    Consider the Autumn Equinox, where Sadalmelik will just be seen over the horizon line on the north pole but the sky's too bright. Heading further south, someone 80°N will see Polaris 10° from his zenith, and Sadalmelik 10° above his horizon. Someone 70°N will se Polaris 20° from his zenith, and Sadalmelik 20° above his horizon. This pattern continues until at the equator Polaris is seen just above the horizon line, and Sadalmelik is directly above. This is observed because the earth is a sphere.

    If the earth was flat, the start would have to be in multiple places at once.




    Credit to:
    HankPowerPikachu21SilverishGoldNovafeaDrCerealFamesonswedWoodenWood
  • Round 2 | Position: For
    edited November 2017

    Nope said:
    SilverishGoldNova The lack of proof for something can not prove something. Refuting the other side can help support yours but it does nothing to prove it. Many factors play in to air plain flightpatterns. Wind speed, wind direction, air port supplies and room. Flying over the poles does not offer that much less distance. Their are no air ports to make emergency stops. Pleas explain why we have a horizon. Making fake images and admitting they are fake is fine. Their are plenty of reasons to make a fake images. As long as you say they are fake. I apologize if I missed something from the first debate. I can't watch the video on my school computer. : )

    I refuted a couple of globe arguments and also provided proof for a flat Earth, so no. For that to be true you would have to assume that the world constantly maintains the same windspeed. Why do we have a horizon?




    Re-Rebuttal 1:

    Well isn't it maybe just a little bit odd that a 1 year difference can turn the world from a 1 continent desert wasteland to... normal, and that it changes the size of the continents? I am still waiting rebuttal for C/P clouds and the article I linked.

    Re-Rebuttal 2:

    Can you show any bending happening? Do I have to squint really hard or is it just you?

    The reason we can't see them is because at such a distance, they have already fallen below the vantage point.
     
    Re-Rebuttal 3:

    I said  the explanation for airplane curvature is that curved glass can artificially curve straight lines, similar to a fish eye lense  I didn't say, exactly like a fisheye lense. And I specifically said "Straight lines"

    Re-Rebuttal 4:

    I presume this is about the picture of a fish eye camera? Yeah I said "similar", not "100% like".

    Rebuttal 5:

    You've shown that 1 or 2 distances on a map are incorrect. Bravo *slow clap*. You haven't debunked the flat Earth Earth by showing a couple of distances on a map are wrong, try harder. No map is 100% accurate. The article you linked is not a rebuttal page, it is literaly some random guy pointing out flight times for a few of the flights. Until you explain why flight times, rather than flight patterns, matter, this argument is irrelevant.

    Sun:

    Re-Rebuttal 1/4:

    Perspective would naturally cause the sun to appear that it is setting, when it reality is moving in a circuit.
     
    Image result for vanishing point perspective

    Consider this a pre-refutation of some of your other arguments 


    Also, just to get rid of your solsticies argument.

    Re-Rebuttal 2:

    You don't even try to refute the argument, and you just focus on how the camera was below the table when that guy flipped a coin. Amazing. 

    Re-Rebuttal 3:

    I can explain how the midnight sun is proof of a flat Earth. 
    If the Earth were actually a spinning globe revolving around the Sun, the only place such a phenomenon as the Midnight Sun could be observed would be at the poles.  Any other vantage point from 89 degrees latitude downwards could never, regardless of any tilt or inclination, see the Sun for 24 hours straight.  To see the Sun for an entire revolution on a spinning globe at a point other than the poles, you would have to be looking through miles and miles of land and sea for part of the revolution!  Anyone below the 89th parallel could never witness the Sun for 72 hours, 3 whole revolutions, straight because to do so would be to assume you are somehow seeing “through the globe” and to the Sun on the other side!  Since such an assumption is ridiculous, and yet the Midnight Sun can clearly be seen as low as the 65 parallel, this is another absolute proof that Earth is the flat, stationary center of the universe.

    http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2016/06/arctic-midnight-sun-proves-flat-earth.html (It's for the arctic midnight sun but it explains your Norway concern well)

    Re-Rebuttal 5:

    I just explained perspective to you so I'm not gonna bother with this one. 

    Stars:


    The graph you linked shows that at different angles, the star can be seen differently. Interesting. 

    You are correct that the angles change when you head further south, but this is not because of the Earth being a globe, its because of perspective. I've already explained how perspective and vanishing points works to you, do you not understand perspective? Yes, as you walk further south, the angle at which the stars can be seen changes. This is because of perspective. 

    I'm not going to address the video you posted since you are only giving credit to the author of the images. Also, I expect by next round an explanation for:

    1. My article
    2. C/P Clouds
    3. The last 2 videos I posted (Extras).
    4. The images I showed in favor of a flat Earth

    Extra Proof:



    Along with those 3, I wouldn't mind an explanation to this. We have a clear view of pikes peak from ground level in fort collins. According to the globe model this should be impossible.


    @MissDMeanor
    MissDMeanorfea
     
  • Round 3 | Position: For
    edited November 2017
    Well MDM plagarized an appeal to ridicule argument... pretty pitiful. I put in the rules no plagiarism.  I had to delete It.

    https://gyazo.com/741f026ebcb46d8af3d868a4a611ddac
    https://gyazo.com/958d47d09180d37c93cd18e6071c82ce

    I hearby declare another victory in the name of Flatearthia, this debate is over.
     
  • Vote
    Persuasive Argument (For): 3 Points
    Evidence And Sources (For): 0 Points
    Conduct (For): 2 Points
    Spelling And Grammar (For): 0 Points
    Persuasive Argument (Against): 0 Points
    Evidence And Sources (Against): 0 Points
    Conduct (Against): 0 Points
    Spelling And Grammar (Against): 0 Points

    Total Points (For): 5 Points

    Total Points (Against): 0 Points

    Explanation: Plag
     
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