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I don't believe people should wave around the Confederate Flag

Opening Argument

I don't think people should wave the Confederate flag. I support their rights to do so, but I think it is disrespectful. Just because I want to respect German history and culture doesn't mean I get to wave around a Nazi Flag. In the same way, I don't think it is respectful to carry a Confederate flag. 
joecavalry
«13

Status: Open Debate


Arguments

  • I don't think it's as disrespectful as waving the flag of a foreign nation, such as Mexico.
    FascismBaconToes
  • @CYDdharta I will agree with you on that. 
  • I've only ever seen one person holding a Confederate flag of some sort with my own eyes. Ironically, he was black. 
  • VaulkVaulk 289 Pts
    The last time I saw someone "Waving" the confederate flag was...never.  
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • I think I saw it at Gettysburg once during a reenactment.
    penguin06FascismBaconToes
  • CYDdharta said:
    I don't think it's as disrespectful as waving the flag of a foreign nation, such as Mexico.
    Hey! I just had a question for you regarding this. I don't mean that your opinion is incorrect, but when does what you are stating apply? Is it disrespectful for a person to be waving a Mexican flag at a Mexican fair in San Antonio (Texas)? If you could help me understand this, that would be appreciated!
  • If one is offended by a confederate battle flag being waved, would they be offended by an American revolutionary flag being waved?

  • @Nightwing The American Revolutionary flag doesn't represent anything that can cause hate. The Confederate on the other hand, represents slave states specifically. This can cause black people to feel offended. Similarly, if someone waves a Nazi flag in front of a Jew, the Jew can justifiably feel offended. 
    WilliamSchulz
  • I believe that they should not do that due to the discrimination.
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 

  • Hey! I just had a question for you regarding this. I don't mean that your opinion is incorrect, but when does what you are stating apply? Is it disrespectful for a person to be waving a Mexican flag at a Mexican fair in San Antonio (Texas)? If you could help me understand this, that would be appreciated!
    You mean during the San Antonio Fiesta, celebrating the fallen heroes of the Alamo?  Yes, I would consider waving a Mexican flag at such an event disrespectful.
    Fascism
  • VaulkVaulk 289 Pts
    edited November 29
    CYDdharta said:

    Hey! I just had a question for you regarding this. I don't mean that your opinion is incorrect, but when does what you are stating apply? Is it disrespectful for a person to be waving a Mexican flag at a Mexican fair in San Antonio (Texas)? If you could help me understand this, that would be appreciated!
    You mean during the San Antonio Fiesta, celebrating the fallen heroes of the Alamo?  Yes, I would consider waving a Mexican flag at such an event disrespectful.
    wow...just wow. 

    So yea, agreed, waving a Mexican Flag during the San Antonio Fiesta would be extremely disrespectful just as waving the Flag of the British Empire during an Independence Day Parade would be awful. 
    Fascism
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Vaulk said:
    CYDdharta said:

    Hey! I just had a question for you regarding this. I don't mean that your opinion is incorrect, but when does what you are stating apply? Is it disrespectful for a person to be waving a Mexican flag at a Mexican fair in San Antonio (Texas)? If you could help me understand this, that would be appreciated!
    You mean during the San Antonio Fiesta, celebrating the fallen heroes of the Alamo?  Yes, I would consider waving a Mexican flag at such an event disrespectful.
    wow...just wow. 

    So yea, agreed, waving a Mexican Flag during the San Antonio Fiesta would be extremely disrespectful just as waving the Flag of the British Empire during an Independence Day Parade would be awful. 
    But at least during the San Antonio Fiesta, although it does honor the heroes of the Alamo, it is a Mexican 10 day celebration in the city, so even if it is wrong elsewhere, at least it would be justified during the event.
    Fascism

  • But at least during the San Antonio Fiesta, although it does honor the heroes of the Alamo, it is a Mexican 10 day celebration in the city, so even if it is wrong elsewhere, at least it would be justified during the event.
    So the event has morphed into a celebration of both the brave defenders of the Alamo and of the foreign invaders that slaughtered them; it sounds like an illustration of the problems caused by wanting to wave around a foreign flag in the first place. 
  • CYDdharta said:

    But at least during the San Antonio Fiesta, although it does honor the heroes of the Alamo, it is a Mexican 10 day celebration in the city, so even if it is wrong elsewhere, at least it would be justified during the event.
    So the event has morphed into a celebration of both the brave defenders of the Alamo and of the foreign invaders that slaughtered them; it sounds like an illustration of the problems caused by wanting to wave around a foreign flag in the first place. 
    At the same token, the Mexican American war was heavily sided toward the Americans, and although the event was a tragedy, as a nation, we have forgiven and assimilated Mexican immigrants into Texas. Heroes of the Alamo could also be courageous Mexicans, the event does not specify. After 150 years, I'm glad we have gotten over our differences on the M-A war to have a celebration, and waving a Mexican flag isn't going to disrespect the dead people, it is a show of patriotism and respect.
  • edited November 30

    At the same token, the Mexican American war was heavily sided toward the Americans, and although the event was a tragedy, as a nation, we have forgiven and assimilated Mexican immigrants into Texas. Heroes of the Alamo could also be courageous Mexicans, the event does not specify. After 150 years, I'm glad we have gotten over our differences on the M-A war to have a celebration, and waving a Mexican flag isn't going to disrespect the dead people, it is a show of patriotism and respect.
    Would it be appropriate to wave an American flag to celebrate Gen Winfield Scott and the first American amphibious landing on the Gulf of Mexico coast and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo on Cinco de Mayo? 

  • CYDdharta said:

    At the same token, the Mexican American war was heavily sided toward the Americans, and although the event was a tragedy, as a nation, we have forgiven and assimilated Mexican immigrants into Texas. Heroes of the Alamo could also be courageous Mexicans, the event does not specify. After 150 years, I'm glad we have gotten over our differences on the M-A war to have a celebration, and waving a Mexican flag isn't going to disrespect the dead people, it is a show of patriotism and respect.
    Would it be appropriate to wave an American flag to celebrate Gen Winfield Scott and the first American amphibious landing on the Gulf of Mexico coast and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo on Cinco de Mayo? 

    This hypothetical scenario raises a lot of questions! For instance, if Americans are waving an American flag to celebrate the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildalgo, that would not be during Cinco de Mayo! How does an American flag represent this value specifically. Aren't American flags hung in America and waved in America even during the date? Okay, that was a joke, but in all seriousness, would an American be traveling down to Mexico specifically to do this? At least in the San Antonio Fiesta example, I used Mexican immigrants who were citizens!

    I will answer your hypothetical statement so I don't sound like a jerk, so I would say it would be worse to wave a flag than in the San Antonio Fiesta simply because the Cinco de Mayo doesn't deal with Americans, it deals with Spain. It would be worse to wave a Spanish flag, but even then, it could be a tourist or a resident holding a party in which the flags are represented to depict independence from Mexico! In the Fiesta, the event deals directly between America and Mexico, so it would be justifyable to wave a flag considering the event celebrates Mexican culture and heratige as WELL as celebrating heroes of the Alamo. In this way, it is a celebration that takes both cultures and combines them into an event that embraces the two countries. 

    You don't have to answer the questions if you don't want to, but I don't like hypothetical statements.
  • VaulkVaulk 289 Pts
    Unless someone here can specifically point out how or why the Confederate Battle Flag is Racist in intent...then I'm afraid I fail to see it. 

    1. The flag was modeled during the Civil War after Saint Andrews' Cross (X Shaped) and had 13 stars to represent the 13 Colonies.  
    2. The Battle Flag was NEVER an official flag of the confederacy.  It wasn't adopted by the Confederate States and wasn't even adopted as the official Confederate Army Battle Flag as the Confederate States couldn't ever agree on one flag.

    Lastly, comparing the Confederate Flag in any way, shape or form to the Nazi Flag is just downright disrespectful to those who suffered the Holocaust.  Suggesting that an Army fighting for an already established institution of Slavery is somehow comparable to the systematic genocide of up to 6 million Jews in another Country across the world is spitting in the face of every survivor of the Holocaust by suggesting that their plight is comparable to that of Slaves in America.  Next we'll be calling the President a Nazi or Racist for enforcing already established immigration laws...oh wait.

    https://theswamp.media/the-confederate-flag-hated-or-misunderstood
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @Vaulk
    1. It was used by the slave-states. Since it was used by the Confederate States, it represents them, Just like how the American flag represents America, or the Mexican flag represents Mexico. It may be based of off other things, but it still represents the country which uses it. Also, the 13 stars don't represent the 13 colonies, they represent the 13 states of the Confederacy. Although the Confederacy only had 11 states, Missouri and Kentucky were included because the Confederacy thought that the states would soon join their side when the tides turned. Another flag was also used for a short while which represented all 15 southern states:
    Image result for 15 star confederate flag
    But when it was clear that not all the states were going to join that willingly, it was reduced to 13. 
    2. The Battle Flag was still a battle flag of the Confederacy. It was the most used battle flag by the Confederate generals. The states eventually did agree on some flags and they were mostly based on the battle flag:
    The second national flag of the Confederacy used from 1863 to 1865 was known as the quotStainless Bannerquot

    So yes, the Confederate Flag did represent the Confederacy. 

    "Lastly, comparing the Confederate Flag in any way, shape or form to the Nazi Flag is just downright disrespectful to those who suffered the Holocaust.  Suggesting that an Army fighting for an already established institution of Slavery is somehow comparable to the systematic genocide of up to 6 million Jews in another Country across the world is spitting in the face of every survivor of the Holocaust by suggesting that their plight is comparable to that of Slaves in America.  Next we'll be calling the President a Nazi or Racist for enforcing already established immigration laws...oh wait."

    The Holocaust was much worse than the slavery, but the slavery was still bad. Just because slavery was less bad doesn't make the Confederate states good. If Jews can feel disrespected by the Nazi flag, blacks can feel disrespected by the Confederate flag, regardless of whether the Holocaust was worse or not. Just because someone else had it worse, doesn't mean an injustice has been done to the blacks. 

    The Confederate States flags wanted to continue slavery, which is why they are still bad. They were losing power in the government, and slavery would gradually fade from legality. They knew this, and so in order to keep slavery going, they seceded and created the Confederacy. The whole point of the Confederacy was to keep slavery going. 

    And the immigration laws are moral. Slavery isn't moral. The Confederacy was racist, and immoral. 
  • VaulkVaulk 289 Pts
    @Fascism

    Alright, so if the Rebel Flag truly did represent the Confederate States:

    1. When did the Confederacy adopt the Battle Flag?
    2. Who originally proposed the Flag as the Confederate Flag?
    3. Who voted on the adoption of the Battle Flag as the flag of the Confederacy?
    4. Which historical document can reflect the adoption of the flag?

    If the Battle Flag was a Flag of the Confederacy then:

    1. Where is the document approving this flag as a Battle Flag of the Confederacy?
    2. Where is the evidence or proof that this was the most used Battle Flag by Confederate Generals?

    I'm not finding any evidence to support your conclusions.

    Lastly, no one here is contesting that Slavery is bad.  I think slavery was wrong, immoral, pick a negative adjective and it just about fits.  That doesn't change the fact that referencing the Nazi Flag in an attempt to make a comparison to the Rebel Flag is wrong.

    Oh and I meant 13 States, not colonies, mistype on my part.


    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @Vaulk

    The stainless banner:
    1. 1863
    2. Many people contributed to the flag. General P. G. T. Beauregard was one of them. 
    3. The Confederate Congress
    4. Statutes at Large, First Congress, Session III, Chapter 88, and act made by the confederate congress and approved by the president. 

    The Battle flag:
    1. I don't think there was any. I'm pretty sure it was just a cultural phenomenon among the southerners, which caused Congress to adopt its design into the national flag. 
    2. I can't find any free credible sources, but It was the inspiration for the stainless banner and the navy flag. 

    "Lastly, no one here is contesting that Slavery is bad.  I think slavery was wrong, immoral, pick a negative adjective and it just about fits.  That doesn't change the fact that referencing the Nazi Flag in an attempt to make a comparison to the Rebel Flag is wrong."

    In some cases yes, but in this case how so? 
  • The Confederate flag doesn't necessarily mean slavery. It can mean the bravery of the Confederate army during the Civil War or the states wanting state freedom. They want their own choice to do whatever they wanted. The Revolutionary war with Great Britain started mostly because Great Britan limited the colonies right and taxed them. The 13 Confederate states did not want the government to control them. 
  • PoguePogue 89 Pts
    BaconToes said:
    The Confederate flag doesn't necessarily mean slavery.
    The Confederacy seceded because of hate and slavery. The Confederate flag is the symbol of this hate. Even if you see this has a symbol of the south or heritage, this heritage is hate. Even if you say it is about history, well, that particular history is inseparable from hate because it is about hate. It’s about racism, and it’s about slavery.
  • They weren't necessarily "slave states" after the civil war, some states in the north had slaves.

    http://www.civildiscourse-historyblog.com/blog/2017/1/3/when-did-slavery-really-end-in-the-north

    The civil war wasn't entirely about slaves. It was about state's rights.
    NopeBaconToes
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • BaconToesBaconToes 67 Pts
    edited December 4
    @Pogue The Confederate flag can have multiple meanings, just like any other symbolic objects. It doesn't have to be just hate, although you could see it that way.
  • PoguePogue 89 Pts
    Erfisflat said:
    They weren't necessarily "slave states" after the civil war, some states in the north had slaves.

    http://www.civildiscourse-historyblog.com/blog/2017/1/3/when-did-slavery-really-end-in-the-north

    The civil war wasn't entirely about slaves. It was about state's rights.
    If it was about state's rights the North should have seceded because of the infringement on their state rights not to have slaves. Also, that source only says when slavery ended in the north not the causes of the civil war. 
    https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2011/04/12/135353655/slavery-not-states-rights-was-civil-wars-cause ;
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