I don't believe people should wave around the Confederate Flag

BaconToes

Pogue said:

@BaconToes
But they weren't planning on doing that. And your argument is economics. Again, not an issue without slavery. Also, it was a major part of the deep south. Industrialization would be better anyway. 

1. My argument is not only about the economy. Once again you seem to be ignoring me.
2. Are you saying the Southern economy would not be affected by the abolishment of slavery? The South's economy is directly linked with slaves, yet you say without slavery the South's economy would not be affected.
3. Weren't they going to strip the South of their rights to own slaves? What are the Emancipation Proclamation and the 13th amendment?

Sources:
https://www.nps.gov/resources/story.htm?id=251
https://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=false&doc=40
https://prologue.blogs.archives.gov/2013/01/03/emancipation-proclamation-the-13th-amendment/

Pogue

BaconToes said:

Pogue said:

@BaconToes
But they weren't planning on doing that. And your argument is economics. Again, not an issue without slavery. Also, it was a major part of the deep south. Industrialization would be better anyway. 

1. My argument is not only about the economy. Once again you seem to be ignoring me.
2. Are you saying the Southern economy would not be affected by the abolishment of slavery? The South's economy is directly linked with slaves, yet you say without slavery the South's economy would not be affected.
3. Weren't they going to strip the South of their rights to own slaves? What are the Emancipation Proclamation and the 13th amendment?

Sources:
https://www.nps.gov/resources/story.htm?id=251
https://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=false&doc=40
https://prologue.blogs.archives.gov/2013/01/03/emancipation-proclamation-the-13th-amendment/

1. Again you are ignoring me. None of these things would be problems without slavery.
2. No, I never said that. I know that. I said industrialization was better than slavery (more efficient). Again ignoring my point. Not an issue without slavery. 
3. No, Lincoln was not. He never intended to. That was after the Civil War started. They left when an abolitionist was elected and the slave states did not get their way. ie fugitive slave law to a greater extent, Kansas-Nebraska Act, and the Supreme Court's (super racist ruling) that if you were a slave purchased in Missouri, you would be a slave in Illinois (technically no state was free now)

https://www.nps.gov/resources/story.htm?id=251 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY9zHNOjGrs  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajn9g5Gsv98 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNmeOOJCDY

Pogue

@BaconToes ;
You messaged me to tell you the fallacies. Ok, you said on December 4, "At that time, there weren't "discrimination' since they all thought that Blacks were inferior to the White." It is wrong because that is still discrimination. Just because a lot (not everyone, another fallacy) thought it does not make it not discrimination. On December 5 you said, "But guess who stop them from being able to own slaves? Yup! That's right, President Lincoln". While it technically is right, it is out of context. That was not his plan. He did not want to take slavery away from the current slave states at the time. Also on December 5, "It was written so that Abraham Lincoln would make it seem like slavery was the main cause of the war, while there were many others." He did not do that at first. He did not even acknowledge it. At 11:14 am today you said, "But Abraham Lincoln was on the verge of abolishing slavery, so the South(some parts of it) broke up." Again, that is not true. He never wanted to get rid of it in the states that had it already. He did it has a punishment for when they came back. Has your source http://www.ushistory.org/us/34a.asp states, "By mid-1862 Lincoln had come to believe in the need to end slavery. Besides his disdain for the institution, he simply felt that the South could not come back into the Union after trying to destroy it." At 7:26 pm today you said, "Weren't they going to strip the South of their rights to own slaves? What are the Emancipation Proclamation and the 13th amendment?" You probably meant it rhetorically. No, they were not. Again, never intended to happen but has punishment for the Civil War. If you did not mean it rhetorically than why would you use something you do not know about in an argument?  I have already given my sources. 

Ghosty

Nope said:

Ghosty I know but which confederate flag? The rebel flag (probably the most well know), the stars with bars (one of the first of their flags), bonnie blue (their first flag or stainless banner. Each fag was adopted at a different time and could have a different meaning.

We're probably thinking of the rebel flag, since it's the most well known.

Nope

The Rebel flag was originally a battle flag so I think it would represent the Confederate solders. I would think of it more as a symbol of southern solders and what they sacrificed in which case I think it is perfectly fine for people to wave around that flag.

Erfisflat

Flags meanings are objective. As is the case with the American flag, some people see it standing for that country, and or the citizens that died for it, some people see it for the tyrannical government that leads it. I personally see it as a dyed cloth and don't see any offense in any of them. Burn it or wave it, who cares, we can buy another from Wal-Mart. 

Vaulk

@Erfisflat

I disagree and believe that the meaning of a Flag is instead completely subjective and depends largely upon context.  I'm not sure how you can acknowledge that some people see it one way...while others see it another and still maintain that the meaning is objective.

Erfisflat

Vaulk said:

@Erfisflat

I disagree and believe that the meaning of a Flag is instead completely subjective and depends largely upon context.  I'm not sure how you can acknowledge that some people see it one way...while others see it another and still maintain that the meaning is objective.

I've explained the logic and reasoning behind it. I agree to disagree with you. Think of it as a song. The song may be a very nice love song. One person met his wife and they danced their first dance to the song. They have a bad break up and the song, while still the same song, now has a different meaning to him, and he may wish to turn the song off or even burn the cd. Consider the man who, instead has lost his wife to some trajedy, the song they first danced to may make him sad now. It's a piece of cloth. Nationalism is a disease.