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Do you believe in God? Religion vs Science

Opening Argument

Timeless debate of all time.  Please vote and explain your position.
RodinonEvidenceSilverishGoldNova
  1. Do you believe in God? Religion vs Science

    33 votes
    1. Yes I believe in God or Higher Power- Religion
      57.58%
    2. No - Science
      42.42%
«1

Status: Open Debate

Arguments

  • God has not been proven in any way. Most attempts have come from philosophical contexts and rational arguments. Thomas Aquinas attempted to explain god, yet the ideas were very vague and there was a massive leap in his logical connections. They have also been disproven through other logical arguments. Same goes for the ontological proof of god. As proposition, the burden of proof lies upon you and there is not enough evidence to show that a higher power exists.
    melanielustm_abusteit
  • inc4tinc4t 135 Pts
    Atheism has not been proven or disproven, neither was God.  It is a personal believe, and takes many shapes.  
    I personally believe in science.
  • I believe in god and he is real.
  • A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away... AN EXPLOSION! Both sides can sound rediculous. I believe in a universal law of god rather than the possibility of a "big bang". My god, (i'm christian) is not some guy with a white beard on a throne. My god is more like gravity and cannot be seen here. Simple as that. I beileve a perfect, non random force would be more likely to have crested the universe rather than the big bang.
    SaltyDogDawnBringerRiven
  • @Brois_Nickalson , welcome back to the Island...
    You had some interesting debates and I hope things are well.
    I also believe in higher power, but just not sure what it is. We don't understand so many things, so for us to say with absolute certainty that we know exactly how things started is arogant.  I think there is a higher form of energy that holds things together, and what I think is most important is that we believe in something, and that something drives us to do the right thing. Whether it's fear of going to hell, or a desire of getting to heaven..that is one of the glues holding societies together and avoid anarchy. 
    I dont argue against the big bang, that maybe part of that higher power plan too. There is sufficient evidence that something like Big Bang did happen.
  • I completely believe in god.
  • @islander507 , if at any poing in history ere was absolutely nothing then there would still be absolutely nothing and no laws of the universe would exist. If there was always something then it would be random and it would be illogical that we would exist since we are finite and such. It would make sence that if a god existed that it would have interacted with humanity. My argument for god jerry-condenced.
  • Well, Boris Nickalson I do understand your point some what, but do not share the same opinion. Although, you made a great argument, but I disrespectfully disagree. Something had to trigger the creation of everything.
  • @Brois_Nickalson , thank you for your compelling argument.  The point is that what we refer to as "God" is open to much interpretation.  I think you agreed on that in your earlier argument.  I argue that definition of "nothing" is open to interpretation.  
    It is all based on personal belief.  
    Science has demonstrated substantial theory supporting Big Bang.  As you earlier pointed out it will be too arogant for us to understand exactly what happened, but I still find Big Bang theory more compelling.
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    The concept of god can be proven, Through rational thoughts. But to believe, Gives a better purpose. Gives a meaning.  And if you are right, There is a reward, If not, Then there really isn't anything next. Worth a leap of faith, If you ask me.
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    @islander507  Some would rather believe, He who made the Big Bang explode. 
  • avivaviv 27 Pts

    Yes I believe that God exists but I do not believe He is an entity of good or evil, these are human concepts. I think he created the universe for his own amusement like a computer game. Sometimes he helps or hurts some character or other out of curiosity, to see what will happen

    love2debate
  • agsragsr 538 PtsPremium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    Premium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    @aviv, interesting notion.  I believe that humans and arguably other intelligent creatures do lots of things for either amusement of self actualization.  What you call computer game of course can be a much more sophisticated simulation for another more intelligent life form.  
     
    Live Long and Prosper
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    I believe in god [Muslim].  But at the same time, I believe in science. God said in the qur'an 'The worst of creatures, Is he who doesn't use his reason'  The reason i believe is because there are miracles no 7th century illiterate man could have known. The scientific ones are overrated, The historical ones are truly amazing . http://islamiclearningmaterials.com/miracles-of-the-quran/
  • EmperorAZEmperorAZ 21 Pts
    God must be real and have created something to start this universe, but then the universe probably just developed on its own according to science, so its really a mixture of both.
    agsraviv
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    @EmperorAZ In islam, One of allah's name is Al Bari [The evolver] Created the universe, Let it grow. Created the single cell, Let it evolve.
    agsr
  • melanielustmelanielust 228 Pts
    I don't believe in a god or any other higher power except the laws of physics that govern our universe. That being said, i can understand the argument that god was the cause for many unsolved scientific mysteries, such as why the big bang expanded, etcetera.
  • missmedicmissmedic 19 Pts

    A lot of horrible things in this world get done for something greater then ourselves. Humans have invented thousands of gods over thousands of years and all have become myths when belief in them stopped. The only thing needed for gods to be true is belief. One need not own beliefs of any kind to establish scientific facts, observe and enjoy nature, or live a productive, moral, and useful life.

     Because of it's certainty religious faith is both arrogant and ignorant. Far from being arrogant the scientific method is one of humility. It acknowledges the limits of our current knowledge. It doesn't provide explanations or answers from a position of ignorance, but investigates the unknown in an attempt to reach understanding based on empirical evidence. Surely it is the superstitious or religious approach which claims to know the answers without any evidence except "faith" that is the arrogant approach.

    DawnBringerRiven
  • VaulkVaulk 239 Pts
    I personally believe in God, not because there's empirical evidence that he exists, but because I have faith in a higher power.  That and science has done a fairly decent job at providing evidence of "Intelligent Design" in the attempt at proving that the origins of the Earth and life itself were purely random.

    And to contest some of the other statements concerning Science, there hasn't been any proof that God doesn't exist.  I concede that the existence of God cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt, but by definition, Science cannot disprove God and also cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that the origins of the Earth don't involve God.  This is the great thing about theories, they're subject to change and therefor cannot ever be facts.  Hence the "Theory of Evolution", "Big Bang Theory"...ect, none of them are facts and none of them can be proven Scientifically.  And in regards to Laws of Science, even the Laws of Science can be and have been changed and are therefor not concrete.  Newton's Laws allegedly applied to all objects on the Earth, with the discovery of Sub-Atomic Particles (Which do not respect Newton's Laws) the well established first, second and third laws had to be changed to encompass previously undiscovered information.  This is where we got Quantum Physics and Quantum Mechanics...so not even Scientific Laws can be facts.

    Lastly,
    1. The Scientific Method is as follows: A method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
    2. Science is the study of the Physical and Natural world through observation and experiment.
    3. Supernatural means: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
    4. The underlying goal of Science is not to make predictions, it is to develop an understanding of the mechanisms underlying the operation of the natural world.
    Source: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/supernatural
    Source: http://sciencecouncil.org/about-us/our-definition-of-science/
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/scientific_method
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2008/03/15/science-and-unobservable-things/#.WQ9_89y1uUk

    So from our Scientific community we can logically deduce that:

    A.  Science cannot apply to the supernatural world, only the physical and Natural.
       
    B.  The Supernatural by definition excludes Scientific understanding and therefor nothing Scientific can explain it.

    C.  Since no one can observe what happened during the creation of life, the Scientific Method cannot be executed in creating a theory or hypothesis concerning how it happened.

    D.  Since the creation of life was not observed, cannot be observed, and cannot be tested then no experiment can be executed to further the theory of how it occurred.

    Simply put, Scientists have been tossing aside their very own code and systems for decades while trying to explain the origins of life.  Why?  Because you cannot attempt to explain the origin of life without conceding that it cannot be observed, tested or experimented.

    Scientist - Gentlemen, we have a theory on the origins of life!

    Scientific Community - Did you find a way to observe what happened?

    Scientist - No, but we have another theory on how to determine what would have been observed had we been there.

    Scientific Community - Did you test this theory?

    Scientist - No but there's no way to test it since we can't possibly know the controls, variables or measurements during the event, so we have a theory for that too.

    Scientific Community - Well did you at least experiment with this to try to recreate a comparable model?

    Scientist - No but everyone else who's tried to create an experiment for this has failed and we have a theory for that too.

    Scientific Community - So you didn't observe it, you can't test it and you can't experiment to make any real determination in regards to empirical facts?

    Scientist - If you wanted to put it that way, yes.

    Scientific Community - Well it sounds good to us!  Let's get this published!  By next year they'll be teaching this in Public School!







  • WhyTrumpWhyTrump 148 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Vaulk said:
    I personally believe in God, not because there's empirical evidence that he exists, but because I have faith in a higher power. 

    Simply put, Scientists have been tossing aside their very own code and systems for decades while trying to explain the origins of life.  Why?  Because you cannot attempt to explain the origin of life without conceding that it cannot be observed, tested or experimented.

    @Vaulk, great points.  So bottom line is this debate is all based on lack of conclusive evidence and unless one day we can actually further advance science it will remain an issue of personal faith.

    It will be fascinating to see what happens once/if science can actually create new life forms and replicate some of the facts.  Faith of many may get questioned 
    WhyTrump - a good question
  • VaulkVaulk 239 Pts
    @WhyTrump , essentially yes.  The bottom line of this debate is simply this:  It requires leaps of faith to believe either side of the explanation for the origin of life.  Neither side can prove or disprove the other and we are all entitled to believe what we want.  Whether or not it ever becomes possible to prove beyond reasonable doubt what really happened...I don't know if that'll ever happen but until then I have my beliefs and respect others' right to have their own.
    agsrWhyTrumpVincent_Costanzo
  • WhyTrumpWhyTrump 148 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Vaulk,completely agree!
    WhyTrump - a good question
  • I am athiest and heres an example why
    Noah's Ark. Real in the bible not a mythical story. Never been found and there's a lot of mistakes there a huge amount of mistakes in this story. And Saying Because god wanted it or something is not a legitimate excuse.
    The ark is 450 × 75 × 45 ft and the journey was 1 year long. Here are the mistakes i have caught feel free to add more.

    No meat could be preserved for a year.

    Animals with Long gestational period could not survive.

    Animals from Australia could not have crossed to the ark or back and no fossils of Australian animals found in a crossing/

    Ants cannot survive with two ants. You would need a Colony.

    Seeds could not survive underwater neither could plants. And nobody could really collect them

    There are certain bugs that only feed on the eggs of  other bugs. How could either survive since one doesn't have food one doesn't have eggs

    Genetic bottle neck. No genetic diversity, everything would be SOOOO horribly inbred.

    How could you keep food fresh.

    Where would you get fresh water

    If it flooded continents, saltwater and freshwater animals would mix and not survive

    Underwater plants couldn't survive since there would be too much water and sun couldnt get though messing up the whole underwater ecosystem

    how Could bugs with week long life spans survive

    Dolania americana females have a 5 minute life span, how could they survive

    How would you get that much wood in the middle east

    How did Noah build that boat of that size with no prior knowledge, professional shipbuilders at the time couldn't make one nearly as big with it having problems,

    How did some animals keep instincts if there just feed.

     How would untrained people get poop out of a dangerous animals pen

    How would noah choose which animals survive out of that species, like i want those two llamas, the rest can just die.

    Other civilization at the time have no record of this event/

    No rock patterns showing wearing from so much water 

     
  • I mostly agree with Vaulk but i think there a bit more evidence behind science
  • @AthiestH, that's right.  Similarly, Moses and opening of the Sea.  These are stories that cannot be proven by anything other than faith.
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    The universe is too big [in my opinion] for there to be nothing out there.  
    i.e  God  i.e Aliens and so on so forth. 
  • I think without a doubt that there is other life somewhere else in the universe
  • I feel as there being around 4200 religions its impossible to find out which is actually right. If i had to pick a religion i would pick an ancient greek or roman one with zeus and everyone cause its so interesting to me.
     
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    @AthiestH  Interesting doesn't always mean truth.  4200 religions, which many worship idols.  
    Some even trees and the sun. If you really want a religion, I think you should look for a monotheistic one.  Because if there is more than one god, Then god isn't all powerful.  I chose islam, Quite interesting numerical miracles. 
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    Also, I urge every atheist on debate island to watch this, And the other 3 parts  
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    @Vaulk Seems you don't know too much about the scientific method  B)

  • Just because your religion is monotheistic doesn't make it better. A council of leaders can make more  thought about decisions. Also a brash or not logical decision is more likely to be made with one as feelings can cloud the brain. With a council you have to talk and make a decision and those kinds of rulings are unlikely 
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    @AthiestH  But if a god needs more than one of himself to make a decision  he isn't all wise. You can't compare humans with gods, The analogy itself is logically incorrect.  A god is all wise, A human takes time to make a decision, while a god doesn't.  Also, i think you should watch the 4 parts of the video i gave.
  • VaulkVaulk 239 Pts
    @Logic,

    I honestly don't know much about the scientific method and I don't claim to either.  How is this part of the debate and was that an appeal to authority?
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    @Vaulk  I'm pretty sure i posted that on the is islam compatiable with evolution debate  :|  And no, It was not at all an appeal to authority. It was just that you brought up the scientific method in that other debate, While not even noting it was created by a theist. 
  • VaulkVaulk 239 Pts
    @Logic, it's posted above in this debate.
    Logic said:
    @Vaulk Seems you don't know too much about the scientific method  B)

    While I concede that the Scientific Method may have been created by a theist, it is none-the-less the accepted method by the Scientific Community as a whole for the fundamental principles of Science.  This is the part of science that I happen to love, there is some wiggle room but for the most part it's set firmly in methodology, rules and standards...far from the Religious community which can't seem to agree on much of anything, much less a standard of practice.
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    @Vaulk I said that i meant to post that in another debate, Not sure why it's here. 
    Why would a theist make something that isn't compatible with his religion?  And god doesn't have to be in the realm of the super natural alone, Why not the realm of the un seen?  We can't see gravity as it is in the realm of the un seen, But it is there. Science and religion can easily go together, And you don't really have to twist the words of either to do so.
  • VaulkVaulk 239 Pts
    edited May 30
    @Logic,

    To answer your question:
    Logic said:
    Why would a theist make something that isn't compatible with his religion? 
    Answer: Science is the study of the natural world...plain and simple.  The ideology behind a supremely powerful being who can defy all the laws of the natural world is by definition "Supernatural" and therefor stands distinctly separated from Science and beyond Scientific understanding.  So essentially, whoever created the Scientific Method (Whoever you believe made the most contributions to its establishment) didn't create a Religious incompatibility but merely made it so that one could not be used in conjunction with the other as they are in different realms.

    And secondly:

    Logic said:
    And god doesn't have to be in the realm of the super natural alone, Why not the realm of the un seen? 
    Answer: I've found no reference to the "Realm of the unseen" that isn't a supernatural reference.  Granted you cannot see gravity but that doesn't make it supernatural, this is a faulty comparison because Gravity, while it cannot be observed directly (Similar to air), the effect of Gravity can be observed and experienced.  You can test gravity, you can formulate hypotheses and then experiment to verify its existential nature. 

    In this, I'm afraid that we may have to agree to disagree, God or "A God" is a supernatural being by definition no matter how hard anyone wants it to be otherwise.  I don't believe anyone from the Scientific Community would disagree either.  Not to say that Science cannot be applied to what's in front of us that may be the result of something Supernatural...I think this is where Science and Religion meet very well. 

    And I agree that no twisting of words is required to bring Science and Religion together however, this doesn't make it so that anyone can use Science to formulate theories regarding God.  To date I actually haven't seen any scientific study aimed at theorizing God at all, most Science regarding the supernatural is used in an attempt to prove or disprove it all-together...never to explain the existence of God...but that might have something to do with Science and the Supernatural being separated by definition.
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    @Vaulk  As for the first part, I really have no choice but to concede. Nice argument.  As for your second argument; 
    If a religion is right, We can see the effects of it.  For example ; Islam. 
    Every year [mandatory]  every single muslim must pay 2% of his wealth to the poor. The poor can see the effect of this. Or the theists that live a more meaningful life because they believe in god. They see the effect on their own life.  And i guess i agree god is a supernatural being. May i ask what religion you are a part of?
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    @Vaulk  As for the first part, I really have no choice but to concede. Nice argument.  As for your second argument; 
    If a religion is right, We can see the effects of it.  For example ; Islam. 
    Every year [mandatory]  every single muslim must pay 2% of his wealth to the poor. The poor can see the effect of this. Or the theists that live a more meaningful life because they believe in god. They see the effect on their own life.  And i guess i agree god is a supernatural being. May i ask what religion you are a part of?
  • VaulkVaulk 239 Pts
    @Logic,

    Nice debate, and I agree that you can observe the effects of the choices people make in their life.  Religion is a belief system, without the belief then the Religion has no power.  Now I'm not saying that God or Allah has no power, but the Religion itself is a belief that exists in our minds and through our actions.  Practicing Muslims as you say, choose to pay a portion of their wealth to the poor, the poor in turn choose to accept it.  The Religion alone and itself did not do anything, the faithful did. 

    Now I agree that practicing a religion can give you a more meaningful life and can bring you peace that you might not know otherwise.  I suppose it depends on the person as not everyone who encounters Religion can say it was positive and neither can everyone say it was negative.

    And I'm Non-Denominational Christian.  Essentially I believe that if God were to come to Earth (Which I don't believe he ever would), he would be disappointed and ashamed that we all split and segregated ourselves into different religions, each chastising the other for what we perceived as "The wrong way to worship" or "The wrong way to believe".  I don't believe that he would be proud of what we've done with our practices. 
  • LogicLogic 220 Pts
    @Vaulk I agree, A religion alone with no followers can do nothing. Just as a king with no subjects to lead can do nothing.  Where i disagree with you on is ; They chose to pay. In islam it is absolutely mandatory, It is one of the 5 pillars. We believe everything we have is from allah, And we would be the ones to blame not allah for the existence of the poor. It is a muslims job to give zakah.  Now, If allah willed there would be no muslims nor islam. He is ultimate power, But the religion itself is different.  If you are worshiping god, There is no wrong way of worship. 
    Where me and you go different ways, Is on the ''God is jesus'' topic. 
    We believe jesus   was one of the mightiest messengers of allah. But not god. Also, In islam people like you would go to heaven. Actually even the jews. And any pious person who believes in god.  Some muslims will even go to hell i.e Saddam Al Hussein. Bashar Al Assad.
    While many christians will go to heaven, And many to hell. The only people who don't have a place in jannah/heaven in islam are the atheists and maybe agnostics. 
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 471 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Science, by that i mean the actual scientific method, agrees with intelligent design. Earth is not a spinning ball, this is scientifically demonstrable. Ergo, big bangism is false, as is evolution.
    DawnBringerRiven
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • inc4t said:
    Timeless debate of all time.  Please vote and explain your position.

    Religion is theory. Science is simply a process we use to verify theories. As yet we have not been able to verify the existence of a god.

    Religion v Science? There is no conflict between religion and science. There is only conflict between senseless human beings.
  • VaulkVaulk 239 Pts
    edited June 4
    @Fredsnephew, In my opinion you're assigning entirely too much credit to Science.  Science is not a process of verification at all, instead it is a methodical study of the natural and physical world.  While you can use Science to prove something, more often than not Science is actually the largest culprit in proving that we know very little about anything.  Theories are not facts, Scientific Laws are not facts.

    To your statement of

    Religion is theory.
    Religion is faith based belief.  Likewise, a vast majority of Scientific Theory requires a large leap of faith as well, as the majority of theories cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt and any Scientist will attest to this. 

    Science is simply a process we use to verify theories. As yet we have not been able to verify the existence of a god.
    Science is more of a philosophy, the "Scientific Method" however is more along the lines of what verifies a theory.  And even if a theory is verified through experiment...this does not make it a fact or truth.  And as to your attesting that we have not been able to verify the existence of God...I would simply say what I have said before. 

    "Scientists will all agree that that idea of "God" is Supernatural and Science is the study of the natural and physical world".  Therefor Science cannot ever be used to prove or disprove the existence of God because the realm of the supernatural specifically excludes scientific understanding by definition.  By the actual meaning of the word...you cannot...ever...use science to effectively study, theorize, verify or refute the existence of anything in the realm of the supernatural.

    http://www.nsta.org/publications/news/story.aspx?id=52402
    http://blog.drwile.com/science-cant-prove-anything/
    http://www.cogsci.rpi.edu/~heuveb/teaching/CriticalThinking/Web/Presentations/Science.pdf



  • Fr3akFr3ak 25 Pts
    edited July 7
    There is no evidence or proof of the existence of any sort of god. Because of this, I believe, as a rational person, that there is no god, however I am open to the existence of one if you can prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is a chance one exists. However, the only arguments I have had are very easily disproven and do not even come close to beggining to prove the existence of a god. The fact of the matter is that we have evidence to suggest that something such as the theory of the big bang is what created the universe. By observing our universe, the evidence leads to a logical conclusion. We cannot say for certain, it is just a theory, however there is more evidence to support whereas the no evidence to support the existence of a god.

    Feel free to challenge me to this and attempt to prove me wrong and try to prove god exists. Who knows, maybe you will come up with something original.
    DawnBringerRiven
  • SylynnSylynn 68 Pts
    I am an atheist, meaning I do not believe in a god. That said, why are these the only options: believe in god, or believe in science? Why can't a person believe in both? Why can't a person believe in neither? I believed in science long before I became an atheist.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 471 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Fr3ak said:
    There is no evidence or proof of the existence of any sort of god. Because of this, I believe, as a rational person, that there is no god, however I am open to the existence of one if you can prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is a chance one exists. However, the only arguments I have had are very easily disproven and do not even come close to beggining to prove the existence of a god. The fact of the matter is that we have evidence to suggest that something such as the theory of the big bang is what created the universe. By observing our universe, the evidence leads to a logical conclusion. We cannot say for certain, it is just a theory, however there is more evidence to support whereas the no evidence to support the existence of a god.

    Feel free to challenge me to this and attempt to prove me wrong and try to prove god exists. Who knows, maybe you will come up with something original.
    http://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/4229#Comment_4229

    There you go.
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • SylynnSylynn 68 Pts
    @Erfisflat - I'm not following ya. Fr3ak asks for evidence of a god and you link to a debate about the ridiculous flat earth conspiracy?
    DawnBringerRiven
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