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Latino is not a "Race", nor is "Hispanic" or "Mexican"

Opening Argument

There's a massive amount of misinformation on the World Wide Web today concerning Race versus Ethnicity.  My post today aims to correct and inform the would-be ignorance toting Race Mongers.

1.  Latino: No matter where you search, any official definition or meaning of the word "Latino" will include the word "Ancestry" or "Origin".  From an intellectual standpoint this excludes the word "Latino" from describing any Race simply because a Human's Race cannot be determined by his place of birth.  There are White people born in Africa and Black people born in China.  Birthplace does not affect your Race...period.  From an official standpoint, "Latino" is definitively used to describe your ethnicity "Regardless" of your race ~U.S. Census Bureau~

2.  Hispanic: Again we're right back to "Ancestry" or "Origin".  Officially the word is used to again describe people who's origin is of one of several Countries and is completely and totally exclusive from Race.  ~U.S. Census Bureau~

3.  Mexican: Now we're getting somewhere...but then again we're stuck at a similar answer.  Being "Mexican" has nothing to do with your Race, if it did then anyone with citizenship in Mexico would qualify as one Race.  A "Mexican" is someone who holds citizenship in Mexico, Mexico is a geographical location on the Earth and therefor cannot be a Race. 

So unless someone suggests that all Latinos or all Hispanics or all Mexicans are one single Race...then we are left with accepting that none of these words aptly identify any Race at all.  If both my parents were born in Mexico and gave birth to me...I would in fact be Hispanic...even though my skin is white as snow.

I would suggest as an idea that people with dark or light brown skin who's lineage follows Hispanic or Latino ethnicity do not have a Racial identity unless you count the term "Mestizo".  I'll be honest when I say that I have never, ever heard anyone use that term to describe a Race of people but it is a legally and officially recognized term that aptly describes people of mixed-race who typically come from Central and South American Countries. 
claxbaerthepridenorthsouthkoreabillpassed
  1. Latino AND Hispanic are terms that identify a Race of Human Beings

    27 votes
    1. No
      51.85%
    2. Yes
      48.15%
"If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


«1

Status: Open Debate


Arguments

  • That's a good point @Vaulk . I agree, because Mexican etc. are sunroofs of Latino. In general(m, they are not considered to be races.
  • They identify a race as said. Latino is at the top of tree while he there are sunroofs and another user said.
  • VaulkVaulk 266 Pts

    They identify a race as said. Latino is at the top of tree while he there are sunroofs and another user said.
    @johannarunel ; Is there any reason you think that these words identify a Race?
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • These words don't identify a race at all, I completely agree with @Vaulk .
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • inc4tinc4t 154 Pts
    @Vaulk, another amazing debate.  Very comprehensive, logical, and I agree.
  • ale5ale5 147 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Vaulk, respectfully, I think that this debate is quite academic.  If technically Latino or Mexicans are not a "race" that is fine, and I agree with you that it is confusing as the line is a bit blurry.  But if we are trying to say they that discriminating against Latino's like in the other article about waiter discriminating against Latino women by asking for ID, that is still a strong form of racial profiling regardless of the technical nuances.
    It's kind of fun to do the impossible
    - Walt Disney
  • PinoPino 67 Pts
    As I understand it the term Latino is to describe the citizens of those South American nations whose language is based on latin, i.e, Spanish,Portuguese and Italian. 
    Mexican denotes someone from Mexico.
    I can only guess that Hispanic refers to someone from a South American country which was settled by the Spanish. 
  • VaulkVaulk 266 Pts
    ale5 said:
    @Vaulk, respectfully, I think that this debate is quite academic.  If technically Latino or Mexicans are not a "race" that is fine, and I agree with you that it is confusing as the line is a bit blurry.  But if we are trying to say they that discriminating against Latino's like in the other article about waiter discriminating against Latino women by asking for ID, that is still a strong form of racial profiling regardless of the technical nuances.
    I would have to ask "How does anyone know the ethnicity of the Women in the article"?  I lean back on my original point, that having an ethnic background has absolutely nothing to do with one's Race.  Likewise, being of a particular Race does not determine one's ethnicity so I then ask myself "How would one go about targeting a "Latino" person when attempting to Racially Profile someone"?  The answer I come up with is "It doesn't seem possible".  There's no way someone could guess your ethnicity being that your skin could be black as midnight and your ancestry could be traced back 10 generations and be all Chinese or some other Asian origin.  The point here is that while Racial profiling can include your ethnicity...there's no way to determine someone's ethnicity because your ethnicity is completely and totally unrelated to your Race. For example "She looks Latino" is an ignorant statement because "Latino" is an Ethnicity and has nothing to do with what you look like.  Ethnicity is about culture...not physical characteristics.

    Ethnicity is the term for the culture of people in a given geographic region, including their language, heritage, religion and customs. To be a member of an ethnic group is to conform to some or all of those practices.  Race and ethnicity can obviously overlap, but they are distinct.




    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • CovenyCoveny 398 Pts
    There is only one race... human. The rest are constructs. Not to mention they all have the same ancestry if you go far enough back.
    aarongSilverishGoldNova
  • randalrandal 59 Pts
    I agree @coveny , everyone could be from the same ancestry at some point in the past.
  • I believe that humans are not all the same and disagree with @coveny . Over time, humans developed and that's what makes us different. 
  • CovenyCoveny 398 Pts
    But that's true with any race @kmelkevolution17. To break off into another race would require a major difference. For example the difference between Homo erectus and Homo sapiens. We don't disagree that both a beagle and spaniel are the same race... dog. 
  • I disagree with @coveny , You can consider to be those two types of dogs "races" as well, dogs could be related to a "kind" like human kind.
  • VaulkVaulk 266 Pts
    There are well established Racial boundaries in the Human Species.  I for one don't believe in the evolution of Human beings but I also concede that we can be classified as a type of animal.  Classification of living things has never been about establishing a superiority or inferiority index, classification is about understanding differences, uniqueness, individuality and the reasoning behind these things.  Race is nothing more than a classification of Human beings, a classification of distinct physical characteristics like: Black Skin or White Skin...these are very distinct physical characteristics.  Also @Coveny , Humanity is not a Race, it is a well established Species by all scientific standards, the Hebrew Bible even describes Humans as a "Kind" of being among beings (Regarding living creatures on the Earth). 

    Since our current classification of Race is skewed, we're going to have to establish something before we can really address the Race issue and that is that, by definition, Race is synonymous with Ethnicity.  This is a problem because logically the idea of Race and Ethnicity being one and the same does not make sense.  How is it that Race and Ethnicity can be the same thing if you can be Black (Which is a Race) and simultaneously of pure European Decent (Which is an Ethnicity)?  The answer is: "It's not possible to be both Black and European if Race and Ethnicity are the same thing".  By definition, you would have to be one or the other, you could not be both otherwise Race and Ethnicity would have to be separate from each other and independent.  So let us understand that Race and Ethnicity are totally separate because everyone here can concede that it is VERY possible to be both Black and European.

    And @Coveny , every classification system in the world is a Construct...including "Humanity" because we designated ourselves as such and there is no empirical evidence to suggest that our classification was correct...it just is because we all agree that it is.  And your suggestion that ancestry has anything to do with your Race is off target, if 10 generations of Caucasian breeding resulted in a Black child...the child's Race would in fact be "Black", the ancestry has nothing to do with what physical characteristics the child inherits from recessive genes.  Your "Race" is determined by YOUR distinct physical characteristics...not those of your ancestors.


    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • CovenyCoveny 398 Pts
    @Vaulk No classification of a living thing is about stereotyping. Our primitive brains are scared of all snakes because over the years we stereotype snake with death, and as we well know that fear is mostly unfounded except for a few exceptions. The same holds true for race. We use it to stereotype by color, and it then becomes an us vs them because they are "different" from us. Queue fighting. No we don't have to define race by Ethnicity, we don't have to define race at all. It's not needed color is more about how much sun your family has gotten than anything else. There is no "need" for the race construct/label/classification it's an outdated physical description.
  • VaulkVaulk 266 Pts
    @Coveny , to use the same logic that you've provided
    Coveny said:
    @Vaulk No classification of a living thing is about stereotyping. Our primitive brains are scared of all snakes because over the years we stereotype snake with death, and as we well know that fear is mostly unfounded except for a few exceptions. The same holds true for race. We use it to stereotype by color, and it then becomes an us vs them because they are "different" from us. Queue fighting. No we don't have to define race by Ethnicity, we don't have to define race at all. It's not needed color is more about how much sun your family has gotten than anything else. There is no "need" for the race construct/label/classification it's an outdated physical description.
    Without classification of any sort, we wouldn't be able to identify which snakes are venomous and which ones aren't.  Que death by venomous snake bite due to an inability to identify a deadly animal.  I love that logic btw...seriously.  And I'm afraid I disagree, just because there are Humans in our world who use the classification system to stereotype...that doesn't mean the system itself was created for nefarious purposes.  This logic that you've provided would be the same logic that dictates that ANYTHING used by Humans for nefarious purposes should be deemed evil.  This is a classic case of blaming the pencil for grammar error, blaming the cheeseburger for obesity and blaming guns for violence...I respectfully decline to agree with any of that logic.
    premiumlegislature
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • CovenyCoveny 398 Pts
    @Vaulk it's good to know that you equate people of color to venomous snakes that will kill you. I can TOTALLY see where that is an apples to apples comparison. On that same note my wife knows like 200 different colors when she shops for paint, so by your logic we should definitely break color down even further.. you know so that we can classify everyone"better". You love my logic? Good news I love yours. If you actually want to prove mine faulty you have to prove a valid reason to classify people by color, AND you have to prove that basic colors like black, white, yellow should be used rather than more granular colors. I'm not blaming color because of the racist, as I already stated it's a primitive urge to create the us verses them mentality. 

    http://www.theemotionmachine.com/the-us-vs-them-mentality-how-group-thinking-can-irrationally-divide-us/
  • VaulkVaulk 266 Pts
    @Coveny , I still haven't seen any evidence to support that the reason classifications were created was to use it to create an "Us versus them mentality".
    claxbaer
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • claxbaerclaxbaer 7 Pts
    I agree with @vaulk , although @Coventry made some great arguments.
  • CovenyCoveny 398 Pts
    Vaulk said:
    @Coveny , I still haven't seen any evidence to support that the reason classifications were created was to use it to create an "Us versus them mentality".
    That's because I didn't say the reason race was created was to use it as an us vs them mentality, so I don't have to support it. No burden of proof over here, I never claimed nefarious intentions. That's the strawman you attempt to apply to me. I still have not seen YOUR proof of why we need race, and why it should only be the colors chosen rather than something more granular. You gonna get to that?
  • VaulkVaulk 266 Pts
    @Coveny

    "@Vaulk No classification of a living thing is about stereotyping."  Your statement here indicates clearly that you believe that "Classification of a living thing" is about stereotyping.  Since by definition, Race is in fact a classification, then YES, you DID claim nefarious intentions because stereotyping is nefarious by definition.  It's negative and cannot be applied in a constructive manner.

    Why we need "Race" is more of a question of why we need "Classification" because "Race" is in fact a classification of Human Beings.  So first, why do we need classification?  The Scientific community is majorly responsible for the classification of living things and the reasoning provided for this is such: Classification is important because it allows scientists to identify, group, and properly name organisms via a standardized system (Linnaeus Taxonomy); based on similarities found in the organisms DNA/RNA (genetics), Adaptations (Evolution), and Embryonic development (Embryology) to other known organisms to better study and understand the new organism as a whole.

    So to condense this in layman's terms, we use a standardized system of classification of living things in order to easily achieve identification of those living things.  This explains the fundamental principle of classification and why we need it but doesn't address Race specifically so let's go there next.

    Why we need the classification of "Race" is the same reason we need the classification of Nationality, Citizenship, Ethnicity and Genealogy.  The classification allows us to easily identify Human Beings for a multitude of purposes.  Firstly, we as Human Beings have a need to be individual, individuality is critical now just as it always has been.  The idea that we should remove a method of identifying ourselves as unique just because a minority of the People of the Earth also use it to discriminate is without merit.  Secondly, there is no denying that we are all different as a matter of empirical fact.  Because we as Humans are all different in multiple ways, we all see the world differently and our Race and Ethnicity are both not only methods of identifying ourselves but are also part of the way we self-identify, the way we understand our history, our social institutions and our world.  Race has several implications other than just being a method of identifying another person, for example: My Race is one of the defining characteristics of my culture, my social history, my Ethnic background.  You cannot simply outcast a classification system that people have used since the beginning of time to self-identify just because there are people in the world who would use the system to stereotype. 

    In summary, Race is a social construct, with it we develop Racial Identity and Ethnic Identity...both of which are used by people to understand our social atmosphere, our individual history and the world that we live in today.  Yes there are sick individuals that still try to use Race as a negative divider in our Society...but deleting a system of self-identification is not the answer to combating the ignorance that is discrimination and prejudice.  Race very well may have been created to establish an order of superiority...but today's world that ideology is mostly frowned upon and we (U.S. Citizens) live in a Country that has made more progress towards Racial Equality than any other Country in the World.



    agsr
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • CovenyCoveny 398 Pts
    @Vaulk ok well that was a big post. 

    My statements
    Classifications is about stereotyping
    Stereotyping leads to a us vs them mentality because of primal tendencies
    Race should be removed because it's not useful

    Somehow out of that you got anytime you classify things it's for nefarious reasons. Nowhere in there did I say anything about intentions or reasons. As previously stated don't have to defend your strawman of my argument, and I'm not gonna...

    We need classification, but it does not logically follow that we need the classification of race. Just because classification is valid, does not mean that all classifications are valid. Your logic is flawed. Yes the scientific community does mostly classify things, and we are classified as humans, or homo sapiens scientists have no phylum below that designation. (thanks for supporting my argument) 

    Race is not equal to any of those. Nationality is a political construct that has nothing to do with science, and could be removed as well. Citizenship is a legal status used by countries to track people, that's like saying we are classified by having a driver's license or not, Ethnicity has some uses, but they are weak. Genealogy is a joke, as we all go back to the same ancestors so it really doesn't classify us at all. Wait what? Where and how did you prove that classification allows us to identify PURPOSE?!?! Really? So I'm a black person how is my "purpose" different from a white persons? Wow I just can't believe you went ... there.

    ROFL so classifying us into a group ... is a way it identify ourselves as unique? 



    Oh yes race is definitely a way you self-identify, and it has several implications beyond that. Not disagreeing with that.

    Now on the point of culture, social history, and ethnic background however I will disagree. Please explain what white culture is, white history is, and white ethnic background is. Because spoiler alert English, Germany, Russians, etc, are all considered "white" and they are VERY different. There is no such thing as white any of that BS you're selling.

    In summary, race is a social construct, with it people develop racial identity used to divide people with the same ethnic backgrounds. Both used to understand who to hate, and where they fit in the social hierarchy. It serves no purpose, and provides nothing but an illusory boundary to divide the human race. Race is all about the same people living slightly different distance from the equator and hating each other for it. There is rampant racism in this country. 

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/?utm_term=.de410011bd3e

    But I guess you are "white" so it doesn't affect you...
    agsr
  • agsragsr 601 PtsPremium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    Premium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    @Coveny and @Vaulk , you are both making compelling arguments. Excellent debate.
    I would like to add that this debate can also morph to discussion regarding merits of affirmative action.  If race and ethnicity wouldn't be relevant then notion of affirmative action would go away.

    Live Long and Prosper
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