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Israeli-Palestinian conflict debate

there's a LOT to talk about here...is Israel committing genocide? do Jews have a right to that land? are Palestinians committing terrorist attacks? does the media have a bias for/against either one? Were Netanyahu's actions in spreading settlements justified? How can the US intervene, and should it?
inc4tislander507joecavalryAlwaysCorrect
  1. Israel is unfairly occupying land/oppressing Palestinians21 votes
    1. I agree
      42.86%
    2. I disagree
      57.14%

Comments

  • WhyTrumpWhyTrump 140 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    I fully support Israel in this conflict. They have full rights to the land and Israel is a great partner to US.  It is critical that US support our key allies in the middle east to help Israel protect themselves against terrorists.
    avivuzairmahmud
    WhyTrump - a good question
  • I completely agree with @whyTrump , I support Israel.
  • agsragsr 485 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Israel is well within their right to fight for their land.  I support Israel side of the debate.
    Live Long and Prosper
  • The US shouldn't get involved, I'm on Isreal side on this one.
  • ale5ale5 126 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Israel has done everything right in this case. I would say that if anything Israel and US should take a more aggressive stance with Palestinians.
    aviv
    It's kind of fun to do the impossible
    - Walt Disney
  • I agree with @agsr . He is the best, I came here because of him. Although, the website is amazing too and that's another reason.
  • agsragsr 485 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @meta_capitalin, thank you for your kind words. It is great to have you here.

    regarding Israel, it is difficult to justify Palenestian actions as anything other than terrorist attacks.  The Palestinian claim to the land has no legal basis either.
    if it wouldn't be for Israel, middle east would really become a horrible place (much worse than now).  It is amazing how such a small country is able to develop such a great military, have so many entrepreneurs, and have so many dedicated citizens who truly love their country.
    Live Long and Prosper
  • randalrandal 59 Pts
    I also agree with the all time leader @agsr . I personally came here because the website is great and the users such as agsr are civil.
  • avivaviv 27 Pts
    I fully support Israel in this conflict. Israel has tried five times to propose peace agreements, but the Palestinians have rejected all of them and have not even tried to propose an agreement of their own. In addition, a Palestinian Authority poll in 2016 reveals that more than 80% of Palestinians do not even want a two-state solution
    love2debateagsr
  • agsragsr 485 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @aviv, Well said.  Israel has been trying to address the conflict, but is in a difficult situation. Palestinians don't really negotiate with a single voice and don't want to stop short of destroying Israel all together.
    Without Israel, the situation in the middle east would drastically deteriorate, and would become a major burden/threat to our country.
    That's why US need to continue to support oir critical ally in the middle east.  
    aviv
    Live Long and Prosper
  • LogicLogic 215 Pts
    Are you people serious? Oh yeah, I forgot! It's okay... As long as it doesn't happen to you.Related image
     Children dying? Pshh, Israevil is an ally of America, So it doesn't matter.  People being oppressed? Israevil is in the right of course, They should oppress the people on the stolen land OF those people. 

    Some people on this website are purely heartless.
    Erfisflatlordneptune
  • avivaviv 27 Pts
    edited May 6
    @Logic; first of all, Palestine was an occupied territory of the Ottoman Empire, after World War I the Ottomans lost the territory to Britain and France. In 1947 the UN voted in favor of establishing a Jewish state in the same area. Second, it is the Arabs who attack the Israelis, not the other way around. And thirdly, guess what? When you declare war on someone who is stronger than you, there will be casualties
  • LogicLogic 215 Pts
    @aviv The territory isn't even what matters.  So here you are saying, Oppressing men ,women and children, For an action not done by all, But a minority in palestine, Is okay?  Murdering INNOCENT children, Is okay?  Israel won. I acknowledge that. But think for a second, What if this was happening to your country?  Let's say, Canada decided to attack america, And it's army was stronger [This is hypothetical if you haven't noticed] .  It defeated america. And nearly A DECADE later, American citizens were STILL facing oppression, It's people being slaughtered like cattle as if they weren't human. How would you feel. And for most people, It IS okay, As long as it doesn't happen to them.
    Erfisflat
  • avivaviv 27 Pts
    @Logic first of all, you said that they stole the land I show you why you are wrong. Second, do you think that IDF soldiers simply walk in the street and shoot Palestinian children? No, the parents of these children send them to stab people on the street and that Causes them to die. Third, again the Arabs who attack, not the other way around. And fourth that is ironic, I live in Israel
    inc4t
  • agsragsr 485 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Logic, when Innocent people get caught  up in this horrible tragedy that is awful, especially when it impacts children.  That image you included is certainly a sad example of how it brings tragedy to many people lives.
    that said, there were countless examples of innocent victims on both sides who got caught up in this conflict.  Many innocent Israellies were victims of terrorist attacks from the other side.  It is really not about being heartless, but finding a solution that stops blood shed in that region.
    Logicinc4t
    Live Long and Prosper
  • melanielustmelanielust 225 Pts
    It's not so productive to simply take some images and statistics and force the blame for bloodshed onto one side. Yes, statistically, Israel has killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis; but in terms of the entire conflict, how many other countries have sided with Palestine to attack Israel? How many times has Israel gone out of its way to conduct structured terrorist attacks targeting women and children? Not at all, from what I've seen, and if so not to the degree of Palestine. Overall, bloodshed is to be expected in conflicts such as these. It does sound heartless but civilian deaths are casualties of war, and such casualties will always occur if the objective is peace.
    islander507
  • LogicLogic 215 Pts
    @melanielust One part of your comment made me laugh, Real hard. 
    ''How many times has Israel gone out of its way to conduct structured terrorist attacks targeting women and children?"https://electronicintifada.net/content/ultimate-hypocracy-israels-targeting-palestinians-spun-part-war-against-terrorism/3986

    Israelites HATE the people of palestine.  The police are CONSTANTLY abusing the elderly and children. Oh yeah, but since you aren't a child in palastine being abused for the retarded government of you country, It's defineitly okay :P https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/04/11/palestine-israeli-police-abusing-detained-children  
    It's only okay, As long as it doesn't happen to you.
    agsravivErfisflatlordneptune
  • LogicLogic 215 Pts
    @melanielust The objective is peace? Yeah yeah, Let me abuse some elderly and some children... It's ALL for the sake of peace though.
    Yeah they won the war, But let's keep abusing them for fun.  I mean, They're all sub human right?  What do they know, Just a bunch of animals.  Let's just murder them like cattle. After all, Isn't that what they're worth?
    agsravivmelanielustErfisflat
  • agsragsr 485 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Logic, that is unfair.  You are painting it as a one sided issue.  I wouldn't be surprised of course if many Israel citizens despite Palestinians just as much as many Palestinians despite Israellies.  That is hatry nurtured by generations of both sides.  You are not mentioning all the suicide bombers that kill innocent people and children in Israel?
    I respect your point of view, and the issue is so deep that I doubt there is any practical resolution at this point.
    Logic
    Live Long and Prosper
  • LogicLogic 215 Pts
    @agsr  What control do the children being abused, Have over the terrorist/terror attacks?  Find the people doing it? But no, Instead we should abuse children, To spark a fire of hate in their hearts. And create more up coming osama bin ladens.
  • agsragsr 485 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Logic, respectfully I am not sure if the article in newspaper provided is unbiased.  That said, if there are isolated cases where excessive violence is used then it would be wrong.  I am just unsure of credibility of these articles.
    Live Long and Prosper
  • LogicLogic 215 Pts
    @agsr  It's not just articles, You just have to search  israel abusing children: And press images.  It's not something new. And if you support israel, You support child abuse. End of discussion.
    Erfisflat
  • avivaviv 27 Pts
    @Logic wow just wow You are so brainwashed. First of all, it is predictable that Israel will look who helped the terrorist among the Palestinians after all the terrorist was Muslim. Second, most Israelis do not hate Palestinians, my brother is currently working in a factory with Palestinians. Third, policemen usually don't enter Arab villages and, yes, there are check points that Palestinians have to go through, this is what happens when some Palestinians send their children to stab people on the street. 
  • LogicLogic 215 Pts
    @aviv  When did they send children to stab police? And who's fault is that? The child who doesn't have a mind to think on his own, Or the parent sending his child to death? But they abuse the children instead.
     All terrorists are muslim? http://www.globalresearch.ca/non-muslims-carried-out-more-than-90-of-all-terrorist-attacks-in-america/5333619

    Just because your brother [One israeli]  doesn't hate the people of palestine, Doesn't mean they all don't.
    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/charlotte-silver/israeli-counterterrorism-means-abuse-and-torture-children

    I'm brainwashed? No, It's the other way around.  I'm the only one sane in this mad house, Filled with unsympathetic evil trumptards.  
    If i am brainwashed for believing Israel is evil for abusing children, Then i'm proud to call my self a full on lunatic.
    Erfisflat
  • avivaviv 27 Pts
    @Logic ;1) They attack civilians and police officers are the ones that cause to stop. 2) did you just called all Muslims terrorists? 3) My brother was an example. I am a soldier in the IDF and only 2 of my unit hates Palestinians. 4) How does Israel abuse children if you said it was their parents who abused them? 5) Brainwashed This does not necessarily mean insane, it simply means that you are Very naive
  • melanielustmelanielust 225 Pts
    Hey everyone lets take it down. Everyone is entitle do to their own opinion. I feel you disagree with them, it doesn't make them wrong or "brainwashed." Let's not throw around insults.
    inc4t
  • melanielustmelanielust 225 Pts
    @Logic You completely misconstrued my point. Israel has been the victim of more hatred from more nations than Palestine has ever been. Given that, a lot of their self defense tactics are interpreted as violent and hateful. Israelis are legally and politically bound to the land they currently occupy and they must keep their people safe. If you'd like, i could also find pictures and statistics of Israeli children suffering and Palestinians committing unwarranted terrorist acts.

    For the record, I still have complete respect for your opinion. There aren't many reasons why someone might be pro-Palestine and I understand completely, I just disagree. Come back to me when you're willing to have a more civilized discussion please.
  • LogicLogic 215 Pts
    Just because the parents abuse the children, Doesn't mean the israelis don't do it to.  I put a link earlier, A kid who was allegedly throwing rocks [not at police, EVEN if he was throwing rocks]  was sent to prison for 4 months. How just of israel! A country with such moral could never be wrong!   
    Again, The terrorist attacks are done by the adults. So why aren't they going after the adults!?! Why children??  Just because the child can't fight back? 
    And again, I have said this before. I acknowledge that the land is israel's land now.  My ONLY problem, Is that they are abusing children. And the palastinians that are bombing israel, Are not any better. They are equal trash.  But why do those kids have to suffer, For something they didn't do.
    Erfisflat
  • LogicLogic 215 Pts
    @aviv  It's mainly their parents that send them to do those things, So why not imprison the parents? No, I thought you were calling muslims terrorists, So i brought a stat.  showing they weren't. 
    Does the IDF represent all of israel? 
    The parents abuse them psychologically, And the Israelites abuse them physically. Both as horrible as they sound.  
    I'm naive for have feelings?  I'm naive because i think that under no circumstances is abusing children okay?  I'll stay naive then.
    joecavalryavivErfisflat
  • joecavalryjoecavalry 151 Pts
    I agree with @logic .
    avivErfisflatlordneptune
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • I'm a bit late, but to go over some of the points that were raised.

    Before I do I'd just like to say I can't work out how anyone could disagree with the first post as two people have. It asks questions of both sides and seems neutral.

    The biggest thing I'd point out is in regards to several comments about who owns the land, which often don't even refer to which land is being talked about. Depending on what people mean, these comments could be interpreted as meaning anything from the very ordinary to support for war crimes and ethnic cleansing.

    The resolution to the conflict as accepted by essentially every single nation on earth - including Israel and the Palestinian Authority which represents the Palestinian territories - is that the land should be split between the Israelis and the Palestinians based on the 1967 borders. If anyone is arguing for one side to have all the land, whether that be Israel annexing the Palestinian Territories or the Palestine Territories annexing Israel, then they are arguing a pro-war crimes position which is not acceptable.

    Now to cover some specific points:

    WhyTrump said:
    I fully support Israel in this conflict. They have full rights to the land and Israel is a great partner to US.  It is critical that US support our key allies in the middle east to help Israel protect themselves against terrorists.

    I would cast doubt on the idea that Israel is a great partner. How? Morally the USA does not approve of Israel's actions, like the rest of the world it is trying to find a resolution to the conflict which ends Israel's occupation, is against the settlements, etc - even if the USA still tends more pro-Israeli than almost any other coutnry on Earth. Strategically it is quite odd. Because of Israel's history in the region and the occupation of the Palestinian Territories, the USA can't make much use of the US strategically as it would incite the rest of the region and costs the US fairly dearly.

    However more importantly, there is no legal and moral resolution to the conflict that doesn't end with peace being brokered between the two sides. To the terrorism, the USA needs to broker peace.

    ale5 said:
    Israel has done everything right in this case. I would say that if anything Israel and US should take a more aggressive stance with Palestinians.

    Israel stands accused of a whole litany of war crimes - it has even admitted to some of it's past war crimes (Like the Israeli High court of Justice labelling the IDF's use of palestinian civilians as human shields illegal) although for criticism of its current war crimes you have to go to other sources like the UN, human rights organisations like amnesty international, international bodies like the International Court of Justice, etc.

    Viewing Israeli and Palestinian activities as a whole, it is impossible to say that either side has done everything right without becoming a war crime apologist.

    aviv said:
    @Logic; first of all, Palestine was an occupied territory of the Ottoman Empire, after World War I the Ottomans lost the territory to Britain and France. In 1947 the UN voted in favor of establishing a Jewish state in the same area. Second, it is the Arabs who attack the Israelis, not the other way around. And thirdly, guess what? When you declare war on someone who is stronger than you, there will be casualties
    The UN voted to establish a jewish state in part of the area and a Palestinian state in another part of the area. There were no plans for a sole Jewish state on the land. even today both the Palestinians and Israeli government accept that a two-state solution is the just basis for peace.

    Also trying to frame this as one versus the other is ridiculous. It is largely a cycle of violence where one side uses the actions of the other to justify their own attacks. Who threw the first punch hundreds of years ago is both impossible to find out and irrelevant.

    I'd also point out that on the occasions when the violence has taken a notable leap outside the normal tit-for-tat violence, like a war, Israel sometimes has been the obvious attacker such as the Suez Crisis and the Six Day War.

    Lastly, there is currently no war between Israel and the OPT - the violence taking the form of a simmering low-level ethnic clash at the moment between an occupier and an occupiee. However even if there was a war, that is besides the point. International Military Law, which was largely formulated following WW2 as a response to the horrors that were inflicted upon soldiers and civilians, delineates what is acceptable and what is a war crime, e.g. it is acceptable to gun down an armed soldier but not an unarmed child. Both sides breach this and are responsible for war crimes. Both sides should be castigated for their actions and made to stop.

    aviv said:
    Second, do you think that IDF soldiers simply walk in the street and shoot Palestinian children? No, the parents of these children send them to stab people on the street and that Causes them to die. 
    It's not the norm, most Palestinian children who are killed by the IDF tend to be killed by artillery or bombs, but actually this does sometimes happen.

    See the case of Imam Darweesh Al Hams as an example. Straying too near to a military outpost, this unarmed 13 year old girl who made no threatening movements was gunned down by an Israeli IDF captain who continued to shoot her unmoving body as it lay on the ground - in direct convention of IDF procedures. When investigated, the perpetrator said he would do it again and would even gun down a 3 year old.

    What happened? He was made to pay a fine and promoted to Major.

    How many times has Israel gone out of its way to conduct structured terrorist attacks targeting women and children? Not at all, from what I've seen, and if so not to the degree of Palestine. Overall, bloodshed is to be expected in conflicts such as these. It does sound heartless but civilian deaths are casualties of war, and such casualties will always occur if the objective is peace.

    Unless you are making a semantic argument to distinguish war crimes and terrorism, Israel is widely accepted to be carrying out war crimes against the Palestinians which result in far more deaths than the Palestinians cause in return.

    The two key foundations of military law are distinction and proportionality. Distinction refers to recognising the difference between civilians and military personnel and proportionality means that when taking military action, the cost to civilians should not outweigh the military benefit. Or to put it simple; if you end up killing 1 civilian while in the process of killing 10 military personnel then that's tragic but by no means a crime. If you kill 10 civilians in the process of killing 1 soldier and that wasn't simply bad luck but a foreseeable consequence of your actions (e.g. opening fire in a crowded market place), then that's a war crime.

    Israel regularly commits war crimes of this kind, as does Israel, but Israel is an order or magnitude worse in it's effects.For instance over 10 years Hamas and other militant groups killed 23 people with rocket attacks, only 1 of whom was a soldier. However Israel kills that amount of civilians in individual bombing attacks with equally disproportionate military casualties - for instance bombing an  militant while he and his family are at home in a crowded residential area and he is posing no direct threat to anyone.

    Logic said:
    Israelites HATE the people of palestine.  The police are CONSTANTLY abusing the elderly and children. Oh yeah, but since you aren't a child in palastine being abused for the retarded government of you country, It's defineitly okay :P https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/04/11/palestine-israeli-police-abusing-detained-children  
    It's only okay, As long as it doesn't happen to you.
    Some Israelis hate Palestinians, but many do not. Hell, take Rabbis for Peace - they will form human chains and protect Palestinian farmers from hate-mongers throwing stones with their own bodies. There are people who hate and people who love on both sides of the conflict.

    Call out abuse where it happens, but when you speak in these broad tones and try to paint an entire race as one dimensional mindless haters, that enters the territory of racism.

    aviv said:
     Third, policemen usually don't enter Arab villages and, yes, there are check points that Palestinians have to go through, this is what happens when some Palestinians send their children to stab people on the street. 
    Checkpoints and the wall, which the ICJ has stated is a violation of international military law, were in place long before this epidemic of stabbings started a couple of years back. As a war crime, it is also something that is not excusable for any reason.

    aviv said:
    My brother was an example. I am a soldier in the IDF and only 2 of my unit hates Palestinians.
    It doesn't really matter if the individuals hate Palestinians or are ambivalent to them if they commit war crimes against them regardless. 

    @Logic You completely misconstrued my point. Israel has been the victim of more hatred from more nations than Palestine has ever been. Given that, a lot of their self defense tactics are interpreted as violent and hateful. Israelis are legally and politically bound to the land they currently occupy and they must keep their people safe. If you'd like, i could also find pictures and statistics of Israeli children suffering and Palestinians committing unwarranted terrorist acts.
    How are Israelis today the victim of hatred? On average how is the life of a typical Israeli effected by hatred today? Not hugely. They are statistically unlikely to be effected by violence, with any issue there being more psychological. On the other hand a Palestinian born into the West Bank or Gaza is not only far more likely to be effected by violence, but they are also guaranteed to face oppression, a lack of freedom and a denial of their human rights today, tomorrow and every day of their lives until the occupation ends.

    Mot only that, but "they must keep their people safe" will only take you so far. You're not allowed to commit war crimes because it's beneficial. Otherwise you could also argue that the PA and Hamas must guarantee their people's freedom, so obviously anything they do in the course of achieving that is okay!
  • I support Palestine all the way in this conflict. You can't just try to kik out 10 million people, because its your "home", Just start to live with them, share the land and resources with them. NOT kill half of them.
    AlwaysCorrect
  • Yeah, trying to remove people from their homes and land so that you can create a more ethnically and religiously pure state is textbook ethnic cleansing. While there can be debate about how peace is resolved, "Get rid of all of [The Israelis/The Palestinians]" is never going to be an acceptable viewpoint. 
  • @lcdyk_1938 Everything right? They were just handed a country that already belonged to someone else, by the British and forced people out of their homes based on ethnic claims to the land, when in reality the Palestinians are probably more closely related to the first century Jews than modern Jews as a result of interbreeding with Europeans for two thousand years, in addition to the conversion of the Khazars to Judaism hundreds of years after the Jews were expelled from Jerusalem, which accounts for a large number of modern day Jews. Sure the Palestinians get violent but I'm from Alabama and if a foreign country just gave Alabama to another group of foreigners and we were forced out of our homes I'd probably react the same way. Would you not?
    Erfisflat
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