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Religion or Atheism Which is better?

LogicLogic 153 Points
In my  view, Religion has given purpose to many meaningless people, While at the same time giving hope to the hopeless.  And chances are one of them are right. So is it so bad , To try out a new religion?

Comments

  • I prefer religion, real or fake it keeps you active. I happen to believe it's real.
    Khan823
  • LogicLogic 153 Points
    @ludil_hanza Same here. I mean, You reap the reward if it IS real. A very good reward.  
  • inc4tinc4t 101 Points
    For many people religion provides a good way to live and a life purpose. It is also a great way to drive a sense of community.
    That said, for many it is important to believe in individuality.
  • melanielustmelanielust 103 Points
    Neither one is better, a religious person can be just as smart, morally good or fulfilled as an atheist
    SaltyDog
  • ale5ale5 75 PointsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @melanielust, good point.  Religion is a good way for many to achieve self-actualization, but certainly not the only way
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    Every religion has blood on it's hands. The various worshipers of yahweh (baptist, jews, catholics, islamic, etc) have been killing, torturing and stopping progress for thousands of years. The purpose of religion is to control the masses, and turn a profit in the process. Although it has good people in it, the over all effect is negative. Much of the division in our world today can be attributed to religion, and the dominant religions keep splintering into smaller groups that fight over the various versions of the same text, or if new text is valid or not. I ask you to take a few minutes to look through http://whatstheharm.net/. Religion may give some sense of peace, but the impact on the world is not peaceful in any sense of the word. 
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    Every religion has blood on it's hands. The various worshipers of yahweh (baptist, jews, catholics, islamic, etc) have been killing, torturing and stopping progress for thousands of years. The purpose of religion is to control the masses, and turn a profit in the process. Although it has good people in it, the over all effect is negative. Much of the division in our world today can be attributed to religion, and the dominant religions keep splintering into smaller groups that fight over the various versions of the same text, or if new text is valid or not. I ask you to take a few minutes to look through http://whatstheharm.net/. Religion may give some sense of peace, but the impact on the world is not peaceful in any sense of the word. 
  • LogicLogic 153 Points
    Yeah, Stalin [An atheist] must have been great, In your opinion of course @Coveny  .  None of the religions above, Order the killings of innocents, As has been done by each religion. 
    SaltyDog
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    @Logic he's a great example of theists destroying the world yes. Son of a priest, raised in a devote christian household, where he was abused from birth, but still chose to spend five years in the Greek Orthodox seminary. So thiest made him the man he was regardless of his personal feelings which could be fall into something like (1) Anti-christian (which is NOT the same as atheist) (2) all about the power (given that he chose to go to seminary maybe he did believe but chose power over following his beliefs) But like I said it really doesn't matter, theists made him the man he was.
  • LogicLogic 153 Points
    @Coveny  You said it yourself 'he was abused'  Whose fault is this? His parents.  So that must have left a psychological scar on him.  Theists made him the man he was, Not the religions those theists follow. Blame the followers, Not the religions. Also, I'm not christian.  
    I'm a muslim, And follow logic and use my reason in every action.
    http://islamiclearningmaterials.com/miracles-of-the-quran/
    Reason allows me to believe. Reason before belief. 
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    @Logic if you are abused by christians you'll tend to see christians in a bad light. You'll tend to work against christians, and hate christians. The whole community back his father's abuse because the father was following the bible in beating him. Religion trapped him in a cage where no one helped him, and it pissed him off so he fought back against it. It was more than just his parents fault, religion must shoulder the burden as well. Thiests are representatives of their religion, their religion is not blameless when the teaches abuse, and create hostility. 

    You are islamic which means you believe in one more prophet than the catholics that abused him. Yahweh is your god just as it was for Stalin's parents. 

    Religion is in no way based in reason. Religion is installed in children when they lack the critical thinking skills to stop it. Very few people ever dispute that programing because to do so disrupts the very foundation of their identity. The medical term for this is cognitive dissonance. It's not even a debate I have to have with you. You can look at any other religion but the one installed in you and laugh at it right? There are roughly 3000 religions that exist, and you only believe in one of them. Thor promised the miracle of no Ice Giants, and we have proof of that miracle because there are no Ice Giants, so Thor must be real.

    Reason...

  • LogicLogic 153 Points
    First of all, The ones who follow the religion, Don't represent the religion. I'll give you an example. Let's say a religion tells you to feed the poor, take in the orphans, pay charity to the poor.  And it's followers a psycho megalomaniacs.  They will STILL and ALWAYS be, Megalomaniacal psychopath.  And if the religion tells you to kill steal, Be a psycho, All the bad things you can imagine, And it's followers feed the poor, Give home to the orphans, Pay charity to the poor.  The only one who represents a religion, Is it's prophet. 
    I worship Yahweh? You just showed me how ignorant you are on the topic of religion.  Islam doesn't worship yahweh, Nor does it take jesus as a god. We believe allah sent a messenger for each age, And jesus was one of them. We worship ONE god, Allah. That is true monotheism.   I do know what the word reason means,It's quite obvious you didn't check my link. It contained content, Which NO 7th century man from the desert could have known.  And ALSO, That 7th century man was illiterate.  Induction. Use my reason.  That must mean something with that kind of knowledge, Knew it. And allah has 99 names, And the All knowing is one. 
  • agsragsr 271 PointsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Coveny, imho religion by itself is not bad. Soviet Union systemically abolished religion, killed off priests, rabbi's, etc. it replaced it with a common brainwashing propoganda where everyone believed in purity of communist leaders for 3 generations.  North Korea is another similar example.
    I think that blind faith (religion or otherwise) is risky and can be abused.  That said, there are many great benefits of religion - like sense of purpose, community, structure, etc.
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    Logic said:
    I worship Yahweh? You just showed me how ignorant you are on the topic of religion.  Islam doesn't worship yahweh, Nor does it take jesus as a god. We believe allah sent a messenger for each age, And jesus was one of them. We worship ONE god, Allah. 
    Are you trolling me? Allah is the word for god in islam. God and allah are just the same word in different languages. But the abrahamic god actually has a name, and that name is yahweh. .
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Yahweh

    There is some contention that Yahowah or Jehovah are the correct name
    https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-gods-name-yahweh-or-jehovah

    And there are others still
    http://www.eliyah.com/yahweh.html

    But that I as an athiest have to correct you on what your gods name... I mean the irony of that is not lost on me. And you tell me that I'm ignorant? ROFL I mean really man did you research it at all or was it like license agreement and you scrolled to the bottom and just clicked yes? Check the links out bro, you really should know the name of your god if you are going to worship him.
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    @agsr you are taking a very kind view to religion. I mean I could debate the death tolls, but I'd have to deal with BS stuff like the above where people attribute people to atheism who weren't driven by atheism. The death toll of people driven by religion is pretty impressive, but I'm not gonna go that route. I'm going to link you to a site, and I want you to read through one section... the one about children dying slowing and painfully because of religious people. 

    http://www.whatstheharm.net/children.html
  • LogicLogic 153 Points
    @Coveny  Find me a single verse of the qur'an using the word yahweh.
    Allah means god? Holy crap!  Allah doesn't mean god, God can be turned into plural. i.e Gods.  It can be made feminine or masculine i.e Goddess, God [masculine by default]  
    Allah can't be made either.  There is no such thing as Allahs.
    god mean 'Ilah'  not allah.  You're lecturing me on my second language
    ? This is funny. I'm the one lecturing you here. 
  • agsragsr 271 PointsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Coveny, these are tragic examples and these people are clearly disturbed to do this.  
    I am not convinced though that declaring all religions evil because of these black marks is appropriate.  
    There are evil religious people and evil atheists.  Similarly there are great amd kind people who are deeply religious.

    To me, it goes back to abuse of power In general.
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    @Logic I cannot believe we are having this debate, I’m an atheist I shouldn’t have to teach you about your religion… I mean I shouldn’t. But I guess I am. So, major differences between say the catholic religion and the Islamic religion is that. 1) Islam believes Christ was just a prophet rather than the son of god 2) Islam believes there has since been another prophet name Mohammad No, the Quran does not mention Yahweh. The Quran like the new testament has scrubbed your gods name out to show that it supersedes all other gods. However, the old and the new testament are still valid in Islam(at least parts of it), and the Quran follows all the major catholic points such as Abraham, Moses, Mary, etc. https://www.namb.net/apologetics/a-comprehensive-listing-of-references-to-jesus-isa-in-the-qur-an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Christian_Bible Again, the only points of contention are about whether Christ and Mohammad were prophets. You both trace your religion back the Jewish bible. In which god was given the name YHWH which most biblical scholars believe to translate into Yahweh. To further “prove” this Arabic-Christians worship Allah. http://www.equip.org/article/allah-does-not-belong-to-islam/ From that article “it is time for all of us, especially Christians, to exercise caution when it comes to attacking the term for God in a language foreign to most of us. No other term exists in Arabic for the God Christians claim to be the one, true God.” Now as for your claim that ilah means god in Arabic this is correct, but so does allah. It’s a generic term for Yahweh. In English you “should” say god rather than Allah if you want to refer to the generic, but if you want to refer to the specific name, your gods name is Yahweh. (which is the exact same god as christians)
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    @agsr here we are going to disagree. I don't think the people who did these things were "sick or evil" individuals. I think they believed they were doing the "right" thing based on their religious teachings. I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes on this topic. http://www.sualci.com/images/steven-weinbergs-quotes-5.jpg
  • AveMariaAveMaria 35 Points
    Religion has discovered heliocentrism, the Big Bang, genetics, gravity, the solar system, and the inner workings of earthquakes and volcanoes in the name of God.  Atheism has killed off religious people in the name of rejecting God.
  • islander507islander507 64 Points
    @AveMaria, I don't think it's as clear as you suggest.  Many scientific discoveries are based on various pursuits, not just in the name of God.

    Similarly, while true that atheism killed off religious people in some cases (like communism regime), not all atheism is in that spirit.
  • AveMariaAveMaria 35 Points
    @islander507  The discoveries I just listed were all from Catholic scientists (Nicolaus Copernicus, Gregor Mendel, etc.), and the Catholic Church teaches that science is the discovery of God's creation.  So, God had to at least play a moderate role in their motivation. And the basics of atheism obviously do not include "exterminate religion," but the scientific and societal progress athiesm has made has generally been toward since the neutral to morally wrong side.  Atheism has not contributed nearly as much to modern life as religion has.  Even great atheist scientists like Steven Hawking and Carl Sagan all made discoveries based off principles founded by the religiously devout.
  • islander507islander507 64 Points
    @AveMaria, since you are advocating that religious pursuit hasn't contributed as much to modern life as atheism, what about all discoveries in the last 100 years..automobiles, planes, space travel, google, facebook, debateIsland?
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    @AveMaria um when claiming yourself to be an athiest gets you killed... people will claim to be theists who don't believe. (I've never been burned alive, but I assume it sucks)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_burned_as_heretics

    I think that both proves that athiest wasn't an allowed choice, AND that religion is NOT supportive of science.

    As for the point of morals... are you serious? Who got rid of slavery? Atheists. Who got women equal rights? Atheist. Who are making laws so that beating your child to death will land you in jail? Atheists. Who made it so you can't stone your wife to death if she's not a virgin? Atheists. Homosexuals not getting killed? Atheists. And the list goes on and on.

    Theist have a LONG history of fighting for things that we now see are morally wrong. You literally have ZERO moral high ground, and you do not... I mean like completely do not believe in the morals taught in those books/gospels.

    I mean mixed fibers... really? Bet you go to a doctor rather than a priest to rub oil on you when your life depends on it. You MUST cherry pick the bible to be able to give it any validation of moral grounds, and you know how you choose what to follow and what not to follow in out of the bible? The same morals Atheists use.

    Oh and for the record worshipers of yahweh are still burning people alive in 2017?!?!?!? 
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/patna/90-yr-old-burned-alive-for-witchcraft/articleshow/57880346.cms

    So that stuff isn't ancient past, we here in the US have the atheist morals that prevent you from being the theists you want to be.
  • AveMariaAveMaria 35 Points
    @islander507  Well, Henry Ford and the Wright brothers were Christian, so there goes automobiles and planes.  Space travel wouldn't be physically possible without Newton, Copernicus, Galileo, or Rutherford, and was further progressed during its heyday by Christian scientists like Werhner von Braun and Robert Boyd.  And Mark Zuckerberg has been quoted saying "religion is very important" and has taken "atheist" off his own Facebook profile, while Google's founders (Larry Page and Sergey Brin) are both practicing Jews.  So there you go.

  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    It's ironic that this just came up in my facebook timeline right before I looked at this response...

    http://www.wbtv.com/story/18577233/nc-pastor-wants-to-isolate-gays-lesbians-until-they-die-out
    agsr
  • LogicLogic 153 Points
    @Coveny You're a special kind of ignorant huh?  The qur'an scrubbed other gods? Funny, Cause there are more than enough verses saying Allah is one. And a full book [in Sahih Al-Bukhari]  Called : The Oneness of god.   So try harder <span>:pensive:</span>    
    We believe in parts of the New and Old testament? Holy crap! And this guy is trying to teach me false things ABOUT MY RELIGION.  The Injeel [Which no longer exists, due to fabrications made by man]   is what we believe. Another fun fact, The Hebrew version [if there is one] MIGHT be a slightly legit injeel.  But goes back to the fact that you can take 2 bibles, And quote from the same book different words.
    And again, Yahweh was never the name of any god. Did you know moses went to Hajj? Why would he do this, If he doesn't worship Allah?
     Or if Allah didn't exist at the time?  Yahweh is a man made fiction.
    And yes, Allah only belongs to islam.   
    [Pretty cool how you learned about the islamic view of the bible FROM WIKIPEDIA.]  That article you gave me saying Allah doesn't belong to islam. Had me laughing from the beginning. The moment he said Allah is equivalent to god in the english language, Is when the argument fell like humpty dumpty.  Allah cannot be made plural.  It doesn't work Like Allah's. Allah can not be made feminine or masculine. [That's goes back to the royal huwa concept]  http://www.answering-christianity.com/allah_not_elohim.htm  That site sets the record straight on tons of misconception and more.   And just because religion has been used as an excuse to do evil things doesn't mean it can't be used as an excuse to do good. I don't know what kind of psychological scar you got, that makes you hate religion so much. But drop the ego a bit. Some islamophobic 'teacher of theology '  isn't going to be the one to teach me about my own religion.
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    @Logic ;By scrubbed out I mean they took out instances of the word yahweh and put in "the lord", or "god" or in your case "allah" or whatever. They did this to "prove" that yahweh supersedes all other gods. If you care to understand the reasons behind it why the gospels the bible was taken from were changed.

    I'm a special kind of ignorant... let's have a look at YOUR link. ROFL

    Did you know that Elohim is Allah (Elohim is a generic term for god, and you both worship yahweh which is the proper name of allah and elohim)
    Jews do call Him: Allah-im.  Aramaic-speaking people also call GOD Almighty Allah. (so jews call the christian god Allah, and it's not just an islamic thing)
    The Bible called Jesus a slave (abd) of GOD throughout the Old Testament! (so your link references how islam is based off the old and new testament)

    This is YOUR link... which you apparently didn't read. Thanks supports what I've been saying. ROFL, go home you're drunk

    Here is some more information for you to ignore because of your cognitive dissonance:
    EL, ELOAH [el, el-oh-ah]: God
    ELOHIM[el-oh-heem]: the plural form of Eloah
    YHWH / YAHWEH / JEHOVAH [yah-way / ji-hoh-veh]: strictly speaking, the only proper name for God. 

    https://www.gotquestions.org/names-of-God.html

    I really don't know why it is that theists have no clue about their own religions. I swear you guys just scroll to the bottom and accept the agreement without ever reading anything
  • LogicLogic 153 Points
    You do know that islam is supposed to be the continuation of the injeel?
    And every prophet, Is a slave to god. 
    But you said Allah is Eloh.  Allah is a word [same meaning, but not same word]   My problem is that you keep saying Yahweh Is the same As allah. Another problem with the word Yahweh, Is that there are different forms 'YHWH, YAHWEH, JEHOVAH/'  But allah only has one, That is allah. There is a difference, Stop acting like an expert in theology.

  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    @Logic No I did not say that Allah is Eloh. The site you linked said Elohim is Allah. I just showed how elohim is the generic name for god, and the proper name for that god is yahweh. Which means that allah is the generic name for god, and the proper name for that god is yahweh.

    Now on the point that YHWH actually means yahweh rather than jehovah or any of the others I have conceded there is some dispute about that point, but went with yahweh as it's considered the accepted addition of the letters. As shown the quran references the old testament which is take from the jewish bible, which says that gods proper name is YHWH. Allah was also used by the jews in the days where there was just the old testament, and at that time they sometimes referred to yahweh as allah. This is a language issue though. Allah is a generic term for your god, and your god is the same god as christians and jews which most agree translates from YHWH to yahweh. So I just use yahweh. Given that you just found all this out, I really don't you've had time to do the proper research on disputing if yahweh is the correct translation of YHWH, but even if you could, it doesn't change the fact that YHWH is the proper name of god of jews, christians, and islam.

    As an athiest I do not accept that yahweh supersedes any other gods. So I will call him by his proper name, just like I call thor by his proper name rather than referring to either as god. To me both of these gods are equal. 
  • AveMariaAveMaria 35 Points
    @Convey  Every single one of the heretics burned in your Wikipedia article was killed before the 1700s except for 2 of them.  The vast majority of the burnings took place during Catholicism's most primitive stages, and in very few number, considering the span of years.  The Church has stopped burning heretics long before the rise of atheism athiesm, not because of secular values values, but because of Biblical ones on loving your enemies and forgiveness for one's sins.

    As for slavery and women's rights, Abraham Lincoln, Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglas, and more were devoutly Christian.  So was Susan B. Anthony.  And don't atheists also have a long history of fighting for things that are morally wrong?  Theists and atheists alike have the capacity to do evil, whether in the name of God (which, by the way, is the highest form of blasphemy) or not.

    And of course I go to a doctor instead of a priest if I'm injured or sick.  The only person who was able to heal someone using only the power of God was Jesus, and the Catholic Church teaches that science isn't our way of discovering God's creation, so of course I'm going to rely on God's miracles that we have already discovered than some Christian Scientist nonsense. You seem to be confusing the crazy Obama-is-the-Antichrist-and-the-Earth-is-6,000-years-old-and-flat Christians on YouTube with the majority of rational-minded Christians.

    Finally, your evidence that religion is destroying the world and that it ultimately leads to heretic burning is one article from the India Times.  Do you really think that kind of thing I say still commonplace and/or respected by most Christians?  At best that is poor data analysis and at worst it is a weak conclusion to an argument riddled with the typic



  • AveMariaAveMaria 35 Points
    (Continuing) typical new atheist cliches of "you are a cherry picker" and "Christianity is intrinsically anti-science."  God bless.
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    @AveMaria If you start spelling my name the server show you the correct spelling and you can just click on it.

    I really don't want to go down the list of "christians", but I really can't ignore Lincoln. Most consider him anti-christian for most of his youth, he wasn't as outspoken when he got older, but he did chose his words carefully on the matter.

    "My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them." Lincoln in a letter to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after the death of Willie Lincoln

    As for the priest thing could you tell me what James 5:14 says on the subject?

    I'll agree the witch burning is no longer "common" sure, but it's still happening. There is a case to be made for all the children we are killing in the middle east is because of the perpetual holy war between christians and islamic theists. The body count on that is in the millions at this point, and it's still happening today. Next let's talk about molestation. Pick your denomination and I can show multiple cases of priests screwing children, many of which were spewing hate about the LGBT community before they were caught. Theism is a blight on this world that helps a few but harms the majority. You personally may have some more open beliefs (because it seems to be going that direction as it fades away) but you are a theist which means you help all those actions.

    I've never been anything but an athiest. I've never found anyone who could explain to me why god created evil as a child in a catholic school where the priests were fondling the altar boys. I could never get past why something all powerful would create evil. In doing so he shows himself as anything but merciful. 



  • AveMariaAveMaria 35 Points
    @Convey  To start off, Lincoln was a Christian.  He didn't belong to any particular denomination of Christianity, but he was a Christian.  The letter you cited was his thoughts on the rigidness and overly-literal interpretation of Scripture provided to him by the Protestant churches he grew up with.

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-33/puzzling-faith-of-abraham-lincoln.html

    Also, James 5-14 talks about praying for illnesses to go away.  It does not say that prayer is the only method of getting rid of illness.  As I said before, science is our way of discovering God's creation, so it is in no way unholy to use it for healing.  Prayer is used in addition to medicine by many Christians (myself included).  

    Finally, your point on the body count of Christian-Islamic conflict in the Middle East as well as child molestation was already addressed in my previous argument: both theists and atheists are capable of good and evil.  Theists committing evil doesn't justify or excuse atheists committing evil.  However, your argument on justifying God's existence when child molestation exists was not previously addressed and also relates to good and evil.  God allows evil people to exist because He gave us free will.  He lets us choose between good and evil, all while knowledge of His Word as well as the teachings of Jesus exist, so that we have a better idea of what good and evil are.  Many claim that because evil exists, God is unjust.  This is on the contrary; if God forced us to always obey Him, He would be unjust because He would not let His most intelligent creations think for themselves.
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    @AveMary He was NOT a christian. Another quote from Lincoln "The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." 

    The scripture is pretty clear about how you should deal with sickness, it's killed a lot of people. You want to say you don't cherry pick, could you show the scripture supporting your "science is our way of discovering god's creation"? I'd like to read that version and chapter. It's the SOLE use of most christians, they ignore the bible when their life is on the line and chose science because it has a proven track record for curing and healing. I have yet to see one of those faith healers regrow a leg, but I've seen some really cool prosthetics... 

    As I addressed before in my previous argument yes both are capable of good and evil, but for a good person to do evil you need religion. 


    Atheists don't commit atrocities in the name of atheism, the same can not be said of theists and their various gods.

    Rather than getting into the impossibility of free will and all knowing, I'm just going to skip that and go to if god is all powerful he could wave his magic wand and we would simply know. Instead he's chosen to create creatures that's whole existence is to burrow through the eye, so they can make babies and burrow through another eye. Torture, starvation, rape, etc are all things yahweh could have waved away. If I could stop a child from being molested I would, that's the difference between me and yahweh, and that is why I will never worship him even if he did exist. He has the capacity to make this world peaceful, justified, loving, kind, fair, and all that stuff instead he has chosen right the opposite. This is your "loving" god? Ya that's not how I define loving.
    Khan823
  • AveMariaAveMaria 35 Points
    @Convey  Have you ever heard the phrase "the Bible is not a science textbook?"  That phrase is right.  Nowhere in the Bible does it claim that it describes how the physical world works.  It's a guide on how to live your life the way God wants you to and how to get to Heaven.  There's a reason that Creation is condensed to two chapters, while sin and heroism get the majority of the book and Jesus getting almost half of it.  And you are right, the Bible doesn't say anything about science being our way of discovering God's creation, mostly because the Bible is not a scientific journal.  It is, however, the direct teaching of the Catholic Church that the sciences are our way of discovering God's creation.  It's also the direct teaching of the Catholic Church that Jesus wanted a universal Christian church, so He told His apostles to set up Catholicism.  This is shown in the Bible in Matthew 16:18, Matthew 28:19, and Luke 10:16.  You sound like a fundamentalist, telling me that because science is not mentioned in the Bible, then science is un-Christian, or that creationism is the only Christian form of science.  But if the church that Jesus set up says that science is Christian, why would you argue the contrary?  You are taking the most uncommon and least intellectual view of my religion to try and counter my argument, and yet the points you make come from a completely opposite sect.

    As for atheists never committing evil in the name of atheism, that is an outright lie.  The Soviet Union attacked religion since its earliest days; in fact, the term "militant atheism" came from Vladimir Lenin when describing his policies.  Mexico followed the Soviets' lead in the 19th-20th centuries, with a Soviet ambassador saying "No other two countries show more similarities between the Soivet Union and Mexico".  Even the French Revolution attacked various churches and forced priests to deny their role in the Church, with those refusing denial gracing my execution.

    And finally, your argument on God not wiping evil away with His "magic wand" is addressed in an entire book of the Bible.  The Book of Job is about a man named Job who is perfectly respectful and is vey faithful to God.  However, God and Satan make a deal; Satan is allowed to make Job suffer in any way imaginable, though he cannot take his life.  Satan's motivation is to make Job lose his faith in God, while God's motivation is to teach him His ways in the most extreme of ways.  Needless to say, Job spends most of the book grieving and ultimately throwing the greatest anti-God rant of all time straight at God.  God responds to this by asking him if he truly knows all there is to divine justice and God's true nature, to which Job replies no.  The moral of the story is that God is too vast for the human mind to fully handle, and that there are things He doesn't reveal to us because of His great complexity, such as why good people are allowed to suffer.  So there will always be things that no one on this earth will know about God, and that is fine, because it is innate in us that we cannot know.  This same complexity is why God is often portrayed as a bearded man in the sky in so many paintings; we can never actually know the true essence of God.

    Side Note: We could go back and forth on the Lincoln issue forever.  Let's agree to put that one to rest.



  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    Well @AveMaria you are nothing if not consistent about misspelling my name. I got done teach logic islam I guess it’s time for Christianity next… take a seat it’s your turn.
    AveMaria said:
    Nowhere in the Bible does it claim that it describes how the physical world works. 
    Nowhere you say? Um I disagree
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_scientific_errors

    AveMaria said:
    @Convey  Have you ever heard the phrase "the Bible is not a science textbook?"  That phrase is right.  Nowhere in the Bible does it claim that it describes how the physical world works.  It's a guide on how to live your life the way God wants you to and how to get to Heaven.  There's a reason that Creation is condensed to two chapters, while sin and heroism get the majority of the book and Jesus getting almost half of it.  And you are right, the Bible doesn't say anything about science being our way of discovering God's creation, mostly because the Bible is not a scientific journal.  It is, however, the direct teaching of the Catholic Church that the sciences are our way of discovering God's creation.  
    “"You can't resolve it with the distribution of condoms," Pope Benedict XVI said of the AIDS crisis. "On the contrary, it increases the problem."
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-says-condoms-wont-solve-aids-1646909.html

    So, um condoms increase the problem with AIDs? That doesn’t sound very scientific to me.

    AveMaria said:
     You are taking the most uncommon and least intellectual view of my religion to try and counter my argument, and yet the points you make come from a completely opposite sect.

    Least intellectual view of your religion? I feel like you are calling me stupid with that. If I were to take the least intellectual view of your religion I would follow it, because would be the best way to show little intellect. Populate the world with incest... twice. Sacrificed himself ... to himself to cleanse the original sins he put on us. Man from nothing, but needed a rib for women. Talking snakes and bushes. We are his perfect form.. oh wait except for penises we need to mutilate those things. Do I need to go on? You want to call me stupid? I'm trying to be civil I mean Thor promised to get rid of Ice Giants and I don't see any Ice Giants... just say'n.   

    When christians torture children and they grow up twisted hating the religion that's not athiest, thats Anti-christian. You guys have been creating wackos for centuries, you get to own them. Not a lie, not even a stretch. Stalin is all about the christian hate as we was raised VERY orthodox christian, and from what I've read got beaten by his father (a priest) on a regular basis. I'm sure he quoted abusive christian's favorite passage (Proverbs 13:24) while he was drawing blood. I'm sure little Stalin made the connection between theism and torture.

    Well at least plutarco elias calles is a new one. I had to actually research that one. An illegitimate child in a highly religious area... it's a mystery why he didn't like thiests. A mystery I say. Looks like when he made it so christians couldn't parade crosses and grabs around it the killing started.  Cristero Rebellion (1926–29). So um the violence was started by christians really? ROFL. On the death toll wiki "war had claimed the lives of some 90,000 people: 56,882 on the federal side, 30,000 Cristeros" That's your smoking gun? (wish I would have read that first) Look we are playing the body count game and 60k isn't even a drop in the bucket.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristero_War

    Just to get you started because almost none of you theist will deny this one. Crusades at 1.7 million dead. (would equal 34 million people today)
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/was-obama-right-about-the-crusades-and-islamic-extremism-analysis/2015/02/06/3670628a-ae46-11e4-8876-460b1144cbc1_story.html?utm_term=.aa1e281385fb

    The moral of that story is that yahweh is a d***. Let me start from the beginning. He made a bet, and that bet involved torturing someone who trusted him. That's not to vast for the human mind to understand, I've seen d***heads do that in my lifetime. It's not complex mystical behavior, it's being a d***head. It's cruel and narcissistic is what it is. Why in the world would you pick THAT story to defend evil. It's literally torturing someone for FUN. What yahweh should have said is "No bet satan, he doesn't deserve the abuse" it's not complex it's not beyond anyone's understanding. You don't make bets about hurting and torturing people. It's immoral. Is that seriously difficult for you to grasp? If so please don't go around other human beings...
  • VaulkVaulk 111 Points
    edited May 12
    But on a minor note @AveMaria ,
    Nowhere you say? Um I disagree
    Firstly, this is a wikipage and the credibility here is on a similar level to "Buzzfeed".

    Secondly, and this is the funny part, there ISN'T anywhere on this page that attests to the Bible describing "How the physical world works".  There are several references to inconsistencies regarding how the Bible has described or referenced a number of things in the Physical World but makes no reference to "How they work".  This erroneously listed link is most likely a result of skimming websites before hastily copying and pasting the links for supposed "Evidence" and is consistent with what your opponent normally does.  You're not alone, you're not the only one who's tired of arguing logic against illogical ideology.
  • LogicLogic 153 Points
    Well i'm back, Sorry for being gone so long.  I looked into the mater, And yes, You were right.  [About the Eloh , Allah thing. ]  
    Firstly, I will tell you why i believe in god. 
    There is such precision in the earth, So perfect that we can live on it.
    Our DNA is very complex. [I told you to watch 2 videos about this, seems you ignored me. ]
    There are also things the prophet  of islam could not have known.  
    For example, The expansion of the universe.  
    And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)
    But the word 'heaven'  in Arabic is 'Sama'  Has different meaning [So do hundreds of words in arabic]
    It's meaning are : Sky, Space, Everything above,Heaven [in some cases, very little].  
    And it says 'Expanding' .  The expansion of space was onl known in the 1930s.  
    Secondly, A picture you put said 'Only religion can make someone good do something bad'  Something around  that i guess.
    But apparently good people don't know what greed is, They don't know what being hungry  and needing to steal food is.  Anything can make a good man do something bad. 
  • CovenyCoveny 69 Points
    @Logic I wasn't trying to change your faith, the eloh/allah thing is more about the frustrations of dealing with theists who don't know their own religion. I wish I could say it wasn't common, but that would be lying. Right now I see the fight between catholics, baptist, ete against islam as the main reason the US has the support of it's people to kill children in middle eastern countries, and killing children pisses me off. (not a fan of wars in general either) That's doing something bad, because of religion.The cherokee have this story of the two wolves inside us all that resonates with me. I think we all have the capacity to do good or bad depending on the situation, and I think religion is feeding the angry wolf. 

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3e/a7/68/3ea7680d1f8ab69d0bc51d03fe5b65c6.jpg
  • LogicLogic 153 Points
    @Coveny Religion is not the problem in the middle east. .In syria, Bashar Al-Assad is an oppressive leader, it has nothing to do with his religion. Rebels are fighting him.  End of that.
    And syrian kids are being droned, Blame your corrupt government, not religion.
    [Also, i didn't change faith. The fact that god has different names doesn't change anything]

  • WhyTrumpWhyTrump 86 PointsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Logic said:
    Well i'm back, Sorry for being gone so long.  
    @Logic, we don't always agree :), but most certainly welcome back! 

    I think both Logic and Coveny are right in some ways.  I believe that some of the incidents cited are due to religion, but some are due to corruption in 3rd world countries.  I am honestly learning a lot from this back and forth debate.  Nice job.
    Covenyislander507Logicagsr
  • LogicLogic 153 Points
    edited May 21
    @WhyTrump Debating is between to people who have different opinions on a topic, So thanks :smile:
    agsr
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