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Religion or Atheism Which is better?

245



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    Arguments


  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -   edited June 2017
    @coveny,

    In a 1976 phone conversation with John Maher, Jones alternately stated that he was an agnostic and an atheist.[42] Despite the Temple's fear that the IRS was investigating its religious tax exemption, Marceline Jones admitted in a 1977 New York Times interview that Jones was trying to promote Marxism in the United States by mobilizing people through religion, citing Mao Zedong as his inspiration.[38] She stated that, "Jim used religion to try to get some people out of the opiate of religion", and had slammed the Bible on the table yelling "I've got to destroy this paper idol!"[38] In one sermon, Jones said that, "You're gonna help yourself, or you'll get no help! There's only one hope of glory; that's within you! Nobody's gonna come out of the sky! There's no heaven up there! We'll have to make heaven down here!"[12]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

    Edit: and I'll concede to that one, McVeigh...while it was never proven that he was part of any group of Militant Christians, did in fact kill 168 people in the Oklahoma City Bombing and left hundreds wounded.  That's roughly 19% of what Jim Jones managed to get.

    Edit#2 lol: Mcveigh admitted openly to being agnostic.  So we're back to the 5% then, name me an instance where a Christian killed 45 people.  Jim Jones was 39 years ago, let's say we go back as far as 50 years then to be fair.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jun/11/mcveigh.usa4

    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    Vaulk said:
    @coveny,

    "Jim used religion to try to get some people out of the opiate of religion", 

    Um so you admit Jim was a theist? He just preached a different religion from the standard ones as most cult leaders do.

    Also as with many of the people considered athiest, but are really anti-theist, they grew up religious, were molded by religion, and are the results of that fall at religions feet. Raised Catholic, confirmed catholic. and believed in god. He was unhappy about how the catholic church had treated him after the bombing. (your article/comment is from the execution table where he renounced religion) 


    VaulkSilverishGoldNova
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -   edited June 2017
    @coveny,

    While many Atheists were once Theists...this makes no difference in the argument and is irrelevant. This is an "Irrelevant appeal", one of my favorite logical fallacies. And no, I make no admission nor did I make an admission that Jim Jones was a theist.  I never said he was a born Atheist, I simply stated that he was an Atheist.  What makes a Christian a Christian?  The belief in Christianity of course.  Jim Jones claimed to be an Atheist and disbelieved in God:

    "Off the record, I don’t believe in any loving God. Our people, I would say, are ninety percent atheist." ~ Rev. Jones

    "Well, thank you for the feedback, ‘cause, I must say, I felt somewhat hypocritical for the last years as I became uh, an atheist, uh, I have become uh, you— you feel uh, tainted, uh, by being in the church situation. But of course, everyone knows where I’m at. My bishop knows that I’m an atheist. He— He knows that I— I— I recognize only love, when I say— I’ll say, "God is Love"— well, you heard my preaching. You know where I’m at." ~ Rev. Jones

    http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=64931

    Christian: (Noun) A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Christianity.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/christian

    Atheist: A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/atheist

    That establishes that being an Atheist is simply a belief, there is no required practice, established methodology or qualification series that must be met in order to be an Atheist, you simply must disbelieve in the existence of God.


    And unless you can provide any sort of evidence (None of which I found in the article) that Mcveigh renounced his religion in conjunction with his execution then I'm afraid that's pure speculation.  I did manage to find some interesting research concerning interviews with Mcveigh by Lou Michel from CNN:

    In his letter, McVeigh said he was an agnostic but that he would "improvise, adapt and overcome", if it turned out there was an afterlife. "If I'm going to hell," he wrote, "I'm gonna have a lot of company." His body is to be cremated and his ashes scattered in a secret location.”(SEE NOTE 5)

      Note the above that McVeigh “said he was an agnostic” but not only that, but that he was defiant about hell itself and remain unrepentant.  Then we also find the same statement that he was an agnostic admitted by Lou Michel during a cyber interview with CNN.  Lou Michel spent hours interviewing McVeigh in writing a book titled, “American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing”.  Michel’s words are enlightening:

     Lou Michel: McVeigh is agnostic. He doesn't believe in God, but he won't rule out the possibility. I asked him, ‘What if there is a heaven and hell?’

    He said that once he crosses over the line from life to death, if there is something on the other side, he will -- and this is using his military jargon – ‘adapt, improvise, and overcome.’ Death to him is all part of the adventure.”

    http://www.tektonics.org/guest/mcveigh.htm


    At this point there is no evidence to support that Timothy Mcveigh was a Christian and whats more is that there stands reason and evidence to believe that he was Agnostic...not Christian.










    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  

    Jim Jones

    Irrelevant appeal

    As I have previously told you, you don’t get to choose reality, and part of reality is how we were raised affects who we are. It may not be a direct cause and effect but it has a HUGE bearing on how we turn out. So, the difference between growing up religious versus not growing up religious is relevant to the actions we take as an adult. Several of the proclaimed atheists just hated religion because of the abuse they received at the hands of it. Now that's not the case with Jones, but Jones was taken in by religion, and very religious at a young age. He felt like he was the messiah. (a belief his mother supported... see the growing up part that is relevant?) He believed himself greater than god, therefore a god himself, and a religion.

    From New Your article: “promote Marxism in the United States by mobilizing people through RELIGION”

    You have not linked the source of your two quotes or WHEN they were spoken, please correct this.

    Jones began his own religious quest around the age of 10. He visited churches in the small town of Lynn where he lived with his family and befriended a Pentecostal minister for a time. Jones began taking what he learned at these different houses of worship and started preaching to other children in the community. His overpowering religious zest turned off some, and he, in turn, disliked many typical teenage boy activities, such as sports, and objected what he believed to be sinful behavior, such as dancing or drinking. Biographers emphasize Jones’s strange childhood devotion to and obsession with the Bible

    Reverend Jones was an ordained pastor. A Methodist student pastor at Somerset Methodist Church in Indianapolis between 1952 and 1956. In 1956 became an ordained minister in Independent Assemblies of God. Jones became the minister of the Disciples of Christ February 16, 1964. A self-proclaimed messiah.

    http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=16601#_ftn41 - For the majority of the residents of Jonestown: “To love God’s justice on earth was to love Jim Jones; to be loyal to socialist values was to be loyal to Jones.”

    Time Magazine, December 4, 1978, Messiah from the Midwest - “The young preacher once threw his Bible to the floor and yelled at his associates, Too many people are looking at this instead of looking at me!”

     [2] FBI No. Q265 (17 October 1978) - “If my wife said, I'm not going to be a communist, I'd say, well, forget it, by God, I'll forget you too.”

    *Proof of his belief in the existence of god one month before the event.

     Event happened November 18, 1978.

    To recap, Jones was very religious growing up, was a pastor, and claimed to be the messiah. Even a month before the event he’s still using god in his declarations. He believed he was god, and could perform miracles... that’s a religion.

     

     

     

    Timothy McVeigh:

    A theist is a theist because they believe

    If that’s your bar, then Tim was a theist when the event happened (April 19, 1995) and still proclaimed himself a believer in 2001 to Time. “I do believe in a God, yes”

    The previous article you linked is from the execution table where he states he states he’s an agnostic (code for not sure if god exists) again he was a theist at the time of the attack, and as you stated the belief in Christianity makes you a Christian.

    You need to prove he was an atheist WHEN he killed those people…

  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -   edited June 2017
    @coveny,

    I haven't contested that Jim Jones "Used" to be religious.  I don't think it would be wise to disagree as there stands entirely too much evidence to prove that he was in fact a very religious person.  But again we have to look at what it means to be an Atheist, Atheism has nothing to do with what you used to believe.  There are no degrees of Atheism based upon a person's progression of beliefs.  So in layman's terms...it doesn't matter if you used to be Christian, Wiccan, Agnostic or a Satanist...if tomorrow morning you wake up and decided that you don't believe in God then you are in fact an Atheist.

    As far as the quotes from Jim Jones, the link below is a transcript from Court evidence (Q266) that was withheld until about 2003 and is without a date of the actual recording.  I can't attest to how the lack of a date credits or discredits any supposed statement made by Jones about him being an Atheist but it would appear that his statements made in the transcript are in line with what several people during interviews and that is that Jim Jones didn't believe in God.  Atheism isn't the lack of Religion...it's the lack of belief in God. 

    http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=27498



    And to address your first point, I agree that how you're raised has a major impact on your life...the things you do, what you're exposed to, your parents ect ect...they all play a role in determining who you are.  I also agree that Jim Jones "Was" very religious growing up, he was a pastor, he was a leader of a religious group and Jim Jones' group could easily be considered a Religion...but being part of a Religion doesn't have anything to do with being an Atheist.

    Again, the meaning of Atheism...disbelief in God.  You can be a part of a Religious Cult AND be an Atheist.  You can be a Religious Atheist because Religion can be a particular system of faith and Worship, it is not exclusively related to God.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/religion

    Saying "By god" does not prove that you believe in God just as saying "Oh my God" doesn't prove that an Atheist is actually a Theist. 


    As for Mcveigh, I never contested that he wasn't a Theist...the argument is that he wasn't a Christian.  Mcveigh stated over the course of time that he believed in God and then went on to say that he wasn't sure.  And yes, believing in "Christianity" does make you a Christian...but Mcveigh never stated that he believed in Christianity and made it clear that he fell away from Catholicism during his time in the Military.

    So again I'll ask, when's the last time a Christian killed 45 people?











    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk

    Ok the title of this debate is "Religion or Atheism Which is better?" it's not "Christianity or atheism which is better?" so you are creating a strawman fallacy that is NOT the topic of the debate.

    From your definition of religion - "The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."

    If you believe yourself a god, you are an theist. (as opposed to an atheist who doesn't believe in any gods)

    Now I think it's important that he calls himself agnostic not an atheist. You can be an agnostic theist or an agnostic athiest.

    Next he said "we emphasize the teachings of Christ". So he follows the teaching of christ making him a christian by your definition because he believer in christ's teachings. 

    Also he say's "we are a church". "A building used for public Christian worship." per https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/church

    And lastly he says "god is love" indicating he does believe in a god.


    Here is the transcript of the section in contention:

    Jones: Well, I’m really heart and mind with you. I’m uh, you know, an agnostic. We have a— some emphasis on the terms of paranormal, because uh, it brings results, uh, there is something to therapeutic healing, all medical science has proven, but we don’t link that with any kind of causative factor of a loving God. Off the record, I don’t believe in any loving God. Our people, I would say, are ninety percent atheist. Uh, we— we think Jesus Christ was a swinger. He taught some pretty damn good things at feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, uh, maybe a little paternalistic, but it’s still uh— all the emphasis of the judgment of character— the only time he ever mentioned judgment at all was in Matthew 25, and it had to do totally with what you were doing for other people, so we— we emphasize the teachings of Christ, but um, we’re a— we are as um— we’re the most unusual church I’ve ever run into, in— in this sense, uh, and we state in the church— I would’ve loved to have been in the foundation. For some years, I’ve been talking to our attorneys to try to get in a foundation, but we have such an influence in the denomination— Our bishop was here Sunday, that’s why we wanted you to meet him and the president of our— of our denomination, I don’t know whether you’re familiar with the— the— the denomination, it’s called the Disciples of Christ. It includes the FBI Director [Clarence Kelley], [Former President] Lyndon Baines Johnson, I think, Senator Monsdale [Sen. Walter Mondale] to give you some background of it—

    Maher: Oh, my God, it’s—

    Jones: And see, we’re linked, not only as Peoples Temple have— I have my own bishopry of the churches I’ve founded, of about 70,000 members altogether, but (stumbles over words), I’m in official capacity, assistant DA [Tim Stoen] who’s a member is also in official capacity, in the regional denomination of two million. It’s— uh, that stateswide. So we— Giving up the church meant giving up that kind of influence, uh, our— our whole denomination comes out with the most radical kinds of postures, and it’s always Peoples Temple’s caucus that does that—

    Maher: Right.

    Jones: —So— Otherwise, I would have left the church. I—

    Maher: I— I think you’re in the right place, because I think it’s exactly right, uh, because, you know, a lot of these folks have, through their education and their background has made them bigots and fools, that they can hear it from a collar, and they’re basically decent—

    Jones: Unfortunately, I think you’re right.

    Maher: —and— and that’s— I think that’s essential, because an awful lot of these little Christian people around, too. You know, they vote wrong all the time, and all this stuff, but fundamentally, they’ve— they— they’ve got some good ideas about principles, and if we could just reach them, and I think you’re doing it right, I think that’s the only way to reach them, is from— from— from positions where they— where they can hear it, instead of demanding that they listen to us on the street and—

    Jones: Well, thank you for the feedback, ‘cause, I must say, I felt somewhat hypocritical for the last years as I became uh, an atheist, uh, I have become uh, you— you feel uh, tainted, uh, by being in the church situation. But of course, everyone knows where I’m at. My bishop knows that I’m an atheist. He— He knows that I— I— I recognize only love, when I say— I’ll say, "God is Love"— well, you heard my preaching. You know where I’m at.. 

    Jones was a theist, if a weird one. He like many theists misunderstood what atheism means. If you believe you are a god you aren't an athiest. If you believe god is love you aren't an athiest. If you believe christ is a god you aren't an athiest. If you don't follow the normal denominations... that doesn't make you an athiest regardless if you call yourself an athiest. Jones is more of a Unitarian Universalists just before that denomination existed. http://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/higher-power/views Religions keep breaking into smaller and smaller pieces, this is an example of that break. Jones created a new religion and he thought that made him an athiest... it doesn't.
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    @Coveny,

    We can agree that Jim Jones was most likely confused and although he was a self-proclaimed Atheist, he was most likely a hybrid of multiple beliefs, none of which can be substantiated to any degree past reasonable doubt. 
    The only person who knows what Jim Jones believe is Jim Jones, we can only make determinations as to what his beliefs were according to his actions and statements...some of which obviously contradict each other in regards to his religious preference.

    And while I concede that this argument isn't in line with the debate topic, my argument was directed towards statements made by @awaketowhere and were not off the topic that he proposed.  This all started as as a response to @awaketowhere , who used the argument that Atheism is better than Religion by using Christianity specifically to make his point.  He/She made several references to the God of Christianity, all of which were negative, in response (And I admit while it was in line with the argument, it was far too simplistic) I posted an equivalency opposition.  My argument is simply that Atheism is not necessarily better than Religion based on Religion being the only driving principle of bad things happening. 


    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk

    I can agree that motives of other human beings can never truly be known, and anything we are discussing is really just speculation on a topic that can never be "proven". (people lie, and are confused)

    Anytime you pit theist vs atheist it invariably leads to body count comparisons, which leads to discussions of the individuals who made those body counts. Individuals who both sides agree are horrible people. That's why I try not to initiate body count comparisons, but as you can see I still defend against them presented them.  

    Personally I feel like faith healing, pediphilia, child abuse, homosexual torture/killing, refusal to get children medical care, etc are all better indicators of the harm that theism brings to the world right now. (as opposed to historically) From my side (which I know you see yourself as different from) islam and christianity are just two different cults that worship yahweh, and want to kill each other. They are the same story as the protestants and catholics killing each other in years past. Gnostic atheists and agnostics atheists don't kill each other. We don't as a group protect pediphiles or defend pediphiles as some theists groups have done. Atheists are a "not group" which doesn't exist like anywhere else. We don't have name for people who don't golf. We don't have a name for people who don't drive, but because of the massive amount of pressure to conform we have a name for people who don't when it comes to religion. It's like some theist see us as a blemish that MUST be forced to conform, these are the ones I have a problem with.

    Taking the long view, it's been shown the more educated we are, the more we understand the world, the less religious and superstitious we are. So if that trend continues it's just a matter of time before all the religions of the world are resigned to myths. Sadly I won't be alive for it, so until that happens I can't tell the people I work with that I'm an atheist because I have to worry about it costing me work or my job.
  • ImbsterImbster 149 Pts   -  
    Just saying, misotheists hate God dystheists believe there's a possibility God is evil. They can't be atheist cause they still believe in a God but have a different view on him very far from religious teaching.
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    I don't understand the question.  Atheism is a religion.
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    Atheism is a religion in the same way that bald is a hair color.

    Atheist = a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist

    Theist = belief in the existence of a god or gods
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theist

    Religion = the service and worship of God or the supernatural
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

    Oh but atheist do eat babies.... hehe 


  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Atheism is a belief of the nature of life and the universe, the same as any other religion.
    ImbsterSonofason
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    No atheism is not a belief about anything. Atheism is a lack of a belief in god. That's it, and that's how everyone defines it. I showed you definitions of the word to prove my point, I can get more if you like, they are all going to say the same thing because it's just like asymmetrical, asynchronous, agnostic, etc. The letter "A" in front of another word comes from greek, and just means "not". 

    https://www.dailywritingtips.com/7-negative-prefixes/
    ImbsterSonofasonSilverishGoldNova
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    @Coveny ; "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"  Atheism certainly fits that bill
    Imbster
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -   edited June 2017
    @coveny and @CYDdharta ,

    This is an interesting circle.  @CYDdharta - A "Religion" by definition can be a particular system of faith and worship.  Also: A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.  The meaning of Religion is simply not restricted to the service and worship of God or the supernatural.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/religion

    So, in this, an Atheist can in fact be Religious depending on the nature of his Atheistic beliefs.  Since the existence of God cannot be proved or disproved beyond any reasonable doubt...then any subsequent belief that God does not exist is just that, "Belief".  And what might you call a belief without proof?  Well I suppose you could call it faith.

    Belief: An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/belief

    Since you cannot prove or disprove the existence of God, then ANY belief in this regard is faith.  So in this, there are faithful Atheists out there who believe that God doesn't exist despite their belief not ever surpassing reasonable doubt.  Likewise there are faithful Theists out there who believe that God does exist despite their belief not ever surpassing reasonable doubt.

    @coveny, Atheism is an accepted AND recognized Religion in the United States.  Please see below for reference, directly under the list of "Religions" you will find "Atheist".

    http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/




    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    CYDdharta said:
    @Coveny ; "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"  Atheism certainly fits that bill
    Atheism means not believing in god. There are no causes, principles, or systems of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. Atheist means does not believe.. no beliefs held. So unless you want to define theism as having no beliefs, then the opposite of beliefs is still no beliefs. ergo atheism can not be a religion, and doesn't not in any way "fit the bill" of religion.
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -   edited June 2017
    @coveny, I think you may have cherry-picked there.

    Coveny said:
    CYDdharta said:
    @Coveny ; "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"  Atheism certainly fits that bill
    @CYDdharta 's provided definition included that a Religion could be a "Cause" "Principle" OR System of beliefs held to with ardor and faity.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/principle

    Atheism could most certainly be considered a Cause and could likewise be considered a Principle.

    And there's a matter of semantics here, believing that God doesn't exist is a "Belief".  Disbelieving that God does exist is a "Disbelief".   "I believe he does not exist" - "I disbelieve that he does exist". Both statements mean the exact same thing.


    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk atheism has no "faith" or "worship". Nor does it have great devotion. You can't be devoted to not golfing can you? No you can't. So atheism can not be a religion, and you can not be a religious atheist. I get you guys simply can't accept that anyone could survive without religion, but ... you can. 

    Then you go from belief and lack of belief to the level of certainty of them. This really doesn't matter to the topic of atheism being a religion or not, but I'll go down the rabbit hole anyway. An acceptance that something exists is a belief. You can't "believe" that something doesn't exist. Nor does disbelieving in something mean that you believe in the opposite. I can say I don't believe you have a unicorn in your truck, without taking the stance that there is NOT a unicorn in your trunk. This is a false dichotomy, there are more than two choices. (as I've just shown) The same holds true with faith, I don't have "faith" that god doesn't exist, I just don't see cause to believe he exists. Do you have faith that the tooth fairy doesn't exist? Does your religion that Santa isn't real drive you? Hopefully you can how taking what you are saying and applying it to things you also don't believe in makes the whole concept ridiculous. Actually I should have use myths as the example so I'll give you one more. You have faith that thor doesn't exist right? So you have devotion to "I don't believe in thor" religion? (fun times) No of course you don't. Just understand the absences of religion is a thing in people. The absence of a belief in god or gods is a thing in people. If we were talking about golf we wouldn't have this discussion because we all understand how ridiculous it sounds to tell a non-golfer that they have devotion, faith, or worship... not golfing.

    So pew does religious research and understands that some people aren't religious and include that in their survey, and to you that somehow "proves" that answering not religious ... means religious. How exactly could they word it to make them not religious? They literally chose religion NONE, and you still call them religious...




  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk no it is not a held belief. There isn't a "cause" or a "principle" or a "system". Is your cause to not believe in thor? Is that an important principle in your life? NO it's not.

    Again by your definition a belief is in the existence of something you don't have beliefs of negatives. I hope you can understand how many religions you would be a part of with this stance. Do you believe in unicorns and all the rest of the mythological animals? No... well that's a belief by your definition, so that's thousands of religions you follow and are devoted to. There are what around 3,000 gods you don't believe in that you would "believe" that they don't exist, and therefore you are in the religion of their non-existence, lets pack on a few thousand more religions. Sounds like it's impossible to be a monotheist at this point... 

  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -   edited June 2017
    @coveny,

    I'm sorry my friend, but Atheism is a belief by the meaning of the word: An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.  So by this allow me to make an example:
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/belief

    Gods do not exist...do you accept this as truth?  If you do accept this as truth then by definition you are an Atheist and this is your belief.  Again I'm afraid you're cherry picking the definition.  Belief is not JUST accepting that something exists...it includes accepting something as truth without proof. 

    In opposition: Gods do exist...do you accept this as truth?  If you don't, then by definition you are still an Atheist and this is not your belief...your belief is listed above.

    Coveny said:
    @Vaulk no it is not a held belief. There isn't a "cause" or a "principle" or a "system".
    Oh but I'm afraid it is, Atheism is a principle because it is by definition: a belief that governs one's own behavior.  So let's go back into an example:
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/principle

    As an Atheist, do you pray to God?  Do you attend Religious services?  Do you worship God?  Do you attribute your success to God's benevolence?  If the answer to these questions is "No", then why not?  If the answer to this question is "Because I'm an Atheist" then you're admitting that your behavior in this regard (Specifically, what you won't do) is governed by your belief that God does not exist. 
    CYDdharta said:
    @Coveny ; "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"  Atheism certainly fits that bill

    Therefor Atheism is a Principle and while I'm curious as to where @CYDdharta got this definition, it certainly does fit the bill.  Atheism is a principle and since I've established that it's a belief...then it's without proof which requires faith.  Although I honestly haven't ever seen an Atheist enthusiastic about Atheism...I have seen many of them argue it with a great deal of it.

    Lastly, your reference to my previous link where Atheism is listed as a Religion...the "Religious Nones" is listed as "Other Faiths".






    Coveny
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk we are not friends don't patronize me. 

    I don't accept that god is true. I do not have a belief in god. You continue to present a false dichotomy where you must either "believe" in a thing, or "believe" in a thing not existing. There are more than two options. I don't accept that you have a unicorn in your trunk, while not believing anything about the contents of your trunk. My disbelief of your claim is valid by itself, this does not require or imply that I am making a claim in response. I could believe you have donuts in your trunk instead of unicorns. This would be a belief because I believe it to be true. The problem you are having is that you can only think in terms of a replacement as the other option. You understand believing that there is a unicorn in your trunk, and you understand believing there are donuts in your trunk, but you can't wrap your head around the idea of disbelief without something to replace it. If I believe in donuts, then I don't believe in unicorns in your trunk. This makes sense to you because I've replaced it and I believe in something right? But do you think that the one who believes in unicorns is also a non-donut believer, and the one who believes in donuts is a non-unicorn believer?

    You have not addressed the polytheism that your semantics creates. Do you admit that you "believe" that thor doesn't exist, and this is a cause, principle, or devotion in your life making you a polytheist? Because what you are trying to apply to me would also apply to everyone else. You don't get to cherry pick the definition to just apply to my lack of belief in your god, it must apply to a lack of belief in ALL gods, and all things. Anything you don't believe becomes a religion. Please address this concept rather than ignoring it. Talk about how you are a polytheist tell me all the not religions you worship. Tell me how that makes sense to you.

    And you keep going down the same line. Do you pray to, attribute your success to, or worship thor? Now does you answering no to that question mean the reason you don't is because you are a thor non-believer? No it doesn't. Anything you don't do, does not mean that you believe in a negative of it, or the negative of it is your cause, principle, or devotion. On the days I don't eat donuts I'm a non-donut believer, and the days I do I'm a donut believer? Somehow my cause, principles, and devotion go back and forth as I do or don't do different actions? Or do you somehow believe that my desire to eat a donut is a cause, principle, or devotion to by non-belief in thor, odin, unicorns, basilisks, etc ? No they are not. When I do something I do that because I want to do it, not because of the negative of all the things I'm not doing. Actually I should clarify, there are cases where people do an action because they don't want to do another action, and their motives are based on a negative, so it is possible, but it's the exception not the rule, and not germane to this discussion. 

    The definition is from #4 here - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

    Atheism is not a principle any more than your non-beliefs in unicorns is a principle. You don't use unicorns non-existence as the foundation for the decisions you make, it doesn't rule or govern your behavior, and you don't think it's moral to not believe in unicorns. Not believing in unicorns is not a principle any more than not believing in god is. There are 3,000 or so gods out there. You believe in yahweh, and those principles guide your life... because you BELIEVE. You are guided by not believing in the other 2,999 are you? As soon as you understand how you are toward the ones you don't believe in, then maybe, just maybe you'll understand what it's like to add that last one to the plie. 

    Yes because it includes "other faiths" like wiccan. 




    Evidence
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    @Vaulk atheism has no "faith" or "worship". Nor does it have great devotion. You can't be devoted to not golfing can you? No you can't. So atheism can not be a religion, and you can not be a religious atheist. I get you guys simply can't accept that anyone could survive without religion, but ... you can.


    If Atheism has no "faith" or "worship", what do you think they do at atheist churches?

    What happens at an atheist church?
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    Some people have a hard time losing religion for more than just the lose of god. I don't think anyone can disagree that there is a sense of community to religious groups, and athiest who've left that life want that community back. Like @CYDdharta ;and @Vaulk they really don't understand what not being religious means, so like a addict who swaps from one addiction to another they try to recreate what they've lost. Actually that's not really fair to them. Personally I see this type of behavior as a crutch to deal with losing religion, but it's completely understandable to want to meet and socialize with like minded individual. Just like a hunting club or whatever. I understand the mentality, it's just not for me, but that doesn't mean that it's not a valid way to live your life outside of god. I'm rambling a bit now... sorry. Anyway, just a club or gathering of people who are accustom to gathering on Sundays for church, and want something to do during that time, that is what they do when atheist's meet. (even if that meeting place use to be a church)
    SilverishGoldNova
  • andyandy 11 Pts   -  
    Coveny said: Every religion has blood on it's hands. The various worshipers of yahweh (baptist, jews, catholics, islamic, etc) have been killing, torturing and stopping progress for thousands of years. The purpose of religion is to control the masses, and turn a profit in the process. Although it has good people in it, the over all effect is negative. Much of the division in our world today can be attributed to religion, and the dominant religions keep splintering into smaller groups that fight over the various versions of the same text, or if new text is valid or not. I ask you to take a few minutes to look through http://whatstheharm.net/. Religion may give some sense of peace, but the impact on the world is not peaceful in any sense of the word.  great@Logic
    Coveny
  • andyandy 11 Pts   -  
    Coveny said: Every religion has blood on it's hands. The various worshipers of yahweh (baptist, jews, catholics, islamic, etc) have been killing, torturing and stopping progress for thousands of years. The purpose of religion is to control the masses, and turn a profit in the process. Although it has good people in it, the over all effect is negative. Much of the division in our world today can be attributed to religion, and the dominant religions keep splintering into smaller groups that fight over the various versions of the same text, or if new text is valid or not. I ask you to take a few minutes to look through http://whatstheharm.net/. Religion may give some sense of peace, but the impact on the world is not peaceful in any sense of the word.  great@Logic
  • andyandy 11 Pts   -  
    Coveny said: Every religion has blood on it's hands. The various worshipers of yahweh (baptist, jews, catholics, islamic, etc) have been killing, torturing and stopping progress for thousands of years. The purpose of religion is to control the masses, and turn a profit in the process. Although it has good people in it, the over all effect is negative. Much of the division in our world today can be attributed to religion, and the dominant religions keep splintering into smaller groups that fight over the various versions of the same text, or if new text is valid or not. I ask you to take a few minutes to look through http://whatstheharm.net/. Religion may give some sense of peace, but the impact on the world is not peaceful in any sense of the word.  great@Logic
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    To be an atheist, you inheritantly "believe" or have faith in the words of men. Just like religion, some man, or group, has convinced you of the impossible, that you, and everything you know, came from nothing. There's no reason to claim that either theory is more valid than the other.
    AlwaysCorrect
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    @AveMaria um when claiming yourself to be an athiest gets you killed... people will claim to be theists who don't believe. (I've never been burned alive, but I assume it sucks)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_burned_as_heretics

    I think that both proves that athiest wasn't an allowed choice, AND that religion is NOT supportive of science.

    As for the point of morals... are you serious? Who got rid of slavery? Atheists. Who got women equal rights? Atheist. Who are making laws so that beating your child to death will land you in jail? Atheists. Who made it so you can't stone your wife to death if she's not a virgin? Atheists. Homosexuals not getting killed? Atheists. And the list goes on and on.

    Theist have a LONG history of fighting for things that we now see are morally wrong. You literally have ZERO moral high ground, and you do not... I mean like completely do not believe in the morals taught in those books/gospels.

    I mean mixed fibers... really? Bet you go to a doctor rather than a priest to rub oil on you when your life depends on it. You MUST cherry pick the bible to be able to give it any validation of moral grounds, and you know how you choose what to follow and what not to follow in out of the bible? The same morals Atheists use.

    Oh and for the record worshipers of yahweh are still burning people alive in 2017?!?!?!? 
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/patna/90-yr-old-burned-alive-for-witchcraft/articleshow/57880346.cms

    So that stuff isn't ancient past, we here in the US have the atheist morals that prevent you from being the theists you want to be.

    This is hard to explain because of our almost 2,000 years of indoctrination, .. but I will try. Tell me Coveny, how do you understand the word "theism/theist" to mean?
    In other words, .. since there are a lot of different interpretations of the word theism, which one would you pick as 'your own personal interpretation/definition'?

    Thanks.
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Evidence I haven't seen a "lot" of interpretation of the word theism.

    Webster -  belief in the existence of a god or gods
    Dictionary - belief in the existence of a god or gods
    Oxford - Belief in the existence of a god or gods
    Vocabulary - belief in at least one god
    Free Dictionary - Belief in the existence of a god or gods
    Cambridge - belief in the existence of a god or gods

    So my "own personal interpretation/definition" of theism is ... belief in the existence of a god or gods
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    @Evidence I haven't seen a "lot" of interpretation of the word theism.

    Webster -  belief in the existence of a god or gods
    Dictionary - belief in the existence of a god or gods
    Oxford - Belief in the existence of a god or gods
    Vocabulary - belief in at least one god
    Free Dictionary - Belief in the existence of a god or gods
    Cambridge - belief in the existence of a god or gods

    So my "own personal interpretation/definition" of theism is ... belief in the existence of a god or gods
    So your own personal interpretation/definition of theism is ... "belief in the existence of a god or gods", .. Hmm, now why would you pick that particular one?
    (pun intended)

    OK, you got a pretty general definition of theism; belief in God or gods, .. that's about what I got too. So theism, or a theist is one who believes in a God or gods, which could be anything from a piece of pine wood carved like a dildo (phallic god) to the Pharaohs like the hawk god Horus Pharaoh, the vulture goddess Nekhbet, and the cobra-goddess Wadjet, to the Popes, to Buddha the teacher of gods, .. to Mormo, to Allah, to Kenneth Copeland, Joseph Smith and Jessy Duplantis, .. to the triune Christian gods, to  Jesus Christ, and countless more, like the planets, the moon and the sun, day of a week and let's not forget money, .. do you agree?

    Now I'm sure you agree that each of these gods are also tied to some religion to keep them alive, correct? Like the Muslim religion would be all about Allah, the 7DA would be about the god Sabbath, the Latter Day Saints would be all about Mormo, the BB-Evolutionists would be all about 'Mother Nature and Father Time and their son Gravity', the Baptists would be all about the three-gods-in-one like the Trinity-gods, the Catholics would be all about Mary, .. so on and so forth, .. in other words; there is no single definition for God that everyone could agree on, would you agree with me on that?

    This is why the word God is automatically assigned to "religion" because anything and anyone can be their god, not only that, but they even tell me that "you cannot talk about God (any of the gods in theism) outside of religion", .. do you agree on this too?

    Yet I could be religious, very religious and not even have heard of any of these gods. For instance I could be religious about walking an hour every morning, or religious about keeping my car spotless, and so on.

    What I'm getting at here, is that the word "theism" is automatically  ascribed to those who believe in god or gods and visa versa. Also the word "god" is automatically ascribed to religions and visa-versa, .. but "religion" does not necessarily have to include god, matter of fact, like I said; a religious person could lack all knowledge of, or never mention the word god, or mention the name of any of the gods in theism.

    You see, that's me, religious, but not about any of the gods in theism. (here is where you would have to step outside of the box to get what I'm saying)
    I don't take the Bible as a religious book, I don't put it on an alter with lights shining on it, I simply read it religiously, just as I used to read comics when I was a kid.

    Since God is real, I can't even go to any religion to serve and worship Him, because as you can see the gods in religion are not real, I am required to have blind-faith to accept their gods. Just as I don't need to go to any religion to get a good sun-tan, or enjoy a day fishing, or read the book "War and Peace" by Tolstoy. I know God by definition, and from observing the laws in nature I know He is perfection. The book called the Bible also explains a lot about God, and I know it's the same God who is evident in nature, and the laws in nature, and He is unlike any of the gods in any religion.

    I also don't need to go to a private social club that discriminates against other social clubs, which is what every religion I went to was, a very discriminating social club.
    I like meetings, socializing with like-minded people, who share my beliefs that are outside of religious indoctrinations, or prejudice. I love the laws, which is already inherent in me, my physical makeup, and nature, and use common sense to decipher between good and evil. In other words the "laws" don't apply to me because I'm always aware of what is right and what is wrong, and should I break the law, I have a Lawyer/Advocate who won't let me rest till I turn and repent from erroneous ways.

    To sum it up, I am religious in seeking the truth of all things, to seek out and justify the evidence, with substance, .. not just accept it on blind faith.
    I am an atheist, not by religion (What do you believe in? "Oh, I'm an atheist") no, I'm an atheist because I know both from evidence that no god/gods in religion are real God, .. they even tell me that their god/gods must be accepted on blind faith, .. and I can also see this to be true by scientific observation.
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Evidence I guess we're going to have a semantics discussion so let's get to it.

    Definition of religion:
    Webster - relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity
    Dictionary - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
    Oxford - The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
    Free Dictionary -  The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe:
    Cambridge - the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship

    So unlike the term theism religion is less agreed upon. My assumption is this is to take into account religions like pantheism (what you are describing as your religion) or the like that say the universe/nature is god, or we are all gods, or whatever. The lines start getting a bit blurry on defining the term when you move from organized religions like catholic, muslim, etc and try to include new wave religions, which we all agree are religions, but aren't easily defined when you try to group them all together.

    You seem to be trying to play this like your a mystic or something and you're trying to baffle me with bull****. I"m not buying what you're selling. Here are the ONLY two contridictary statements from you that matter:
    1) God is real
    2) I'm an atheist

    These two can not co-exist, one is untrue. (see the definition of theism above)
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    @Evidence I guess we're going to have a semantics discussion so let's get to it.

    Definition of religion:
    Webster - relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity
    Dictionary - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
    Oxford - The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
    Free Dictionary -  The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe:
    Cambridge - the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship

    So unlike the term theism religion is less agreed upon. My assumption is this is to take into account religions like pantheism (what you are describing as your religion) or the like that say the universe/nature is god, or we are all gods, or whatever. The lines start getting a bit blurry on defining the term when you move from organized religions like catholic, muslim, etc and try to include new wave religions, which we all agree are religions, but aren't easily defined when you try to group them all together.

    You seem to be trying to play this like your a mystic or something and you're trying to baffle me with bull****. I"m not buying what you're selling. Here are the ONLY two contridictary statements from you that matter:
    1) God is real
    2) I'm an atheist

    These two can not co-exist, one is untrue. (see the definition of theism above)
    I like you Coveny, I like your reasoning, and I value your response. Yes, this is relating to meaning in language or logic. For instance if you were to seek the definition for "a noble gentleman", and among the varying definitions you found: "a commoner who frequents a brothel", wouldn't that raise a flag with you?

    @Coveny So unlike the term theism religion is less agreed upon. My assumption is this is to take into account religions like pantheism (what you are describing as your religion) or the like that say the universe/nature is god, or we are all gods, or whatever. The lines start getting a bit blurry on defining the term when you move from organized religions like catholic, muslim, etc and try to include new wave religions, which we all agree are religions, but aren't easily defined when you try to group them all together.

    So if the word "religion" is less agreed upon, should we just throw in the Creator of Heaven and Earth including all things in creation that He created, including languages, the ability to reason, and the order that we find in creation, all assigned by strict laws?

    If I say: "God is Love!"
    Response in most cases: "Oh, another religious nut. Go to the religious section along with the other dildo/phallic gods and talk about their weird sexual perversions there."
    "No, .. I mean the Real Creator, not any gods defined in religion. And I mean Love, Agape-love, not Eros/erotic-love"
    Response I got so far, including years of debating elsewhere: "semantics, that's all that is!"

    Pantheism:
    1.
    a doctrine that identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.
    2. worship that admits or tolerates all gods.
    .. is as far as to what I believe as the east is from the west. Pantheism identifies the Creator with the created, .. so no, .. religion does that, not me.

    @Coveny The lines start getting a bit blurry on defining the term when you move from organized religions like catholic, muslim, etc and try to include new wave religions, which we all agree are religions, but aren't easily defined when you try to group them all together.

    No, there is no "blurry lines" with me, it is either black, or white, no gray area in my logic. I will tell you if I'm not sure about something, and there are a lot of those, but what I'm talking about here should be very evident to you too. Since I've been here, my stand has always been that; "ALL Religions have their own god/gods and ideas of gods, NOT ONE knows, or would even consider our real Creator, this includes His Son Word. If they did, that would be the end of that Religion."

    The closest that any Religion can come to in letting Jesus in their church/congregation is by name (and Mexico is full of Jesus's), but they will make sure you know it is NOT the Jesus in the Bible, the Son of God, but their version of Jesus, a failure of a man like the Pope said, or some deified man to godhood; the trinity sun-god, .. or some Cherubim, .. anything but Jesus the Only Begotten Son of God Word.
    Here is a good example:


    @Coveny You seem to be trying to play this like your a mystic or something and you're trying to baffle me with bull****. I"m not buying what you're selling. Here are the ONLY two contridictary statements from you that matter:
    1) God is real
    2) I'm an atheist

    Mystic, .. me? Wow, what honor, sure is a step up from "uneducated, unschooled dumbass, ignorant piece of sht that just won't f*king die!"
    I, .. I don't know what to say!?

    I'm not selling anything, I got it, and I give it for free, that's all it matters, and no one has to take any of it: I know who our Creator is, and He is not any of the created-gods in ANY religion. But if semantics means little to you, then none of this matters, sorry that I wasted your time.

    As for:
    1) God is real, .. - yes, not only real, but the Only One Possible.
    2) I'm an atheist - yes, I don't believe that any of the gods in religion that the religious study in theology is our real Creator. But if you don't value semantics like diamonds or other precious stones, then my explanation is worthless to you.

    Mathew 13:
    The Parable of the Hidden Treasure
    44 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

    The Parable of the Pearl of Great Price

    45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, 46 who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

    The treasure I found was the true definition of the word Infinite, .. and with it I found the true meaning of Eternal and the more I dug, I found the true definition of "nothing", and I had to give up everything and everyone I knew, friends and family, relatives, wealthy acquaintances that loved me, and wanted to adopt me as a son, all I had to do is accept them as they are, including what they believed in, their religion, but I gave it all up, .. because it just didn't compare with what I found, .. the "truth" with evidence.

  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Logic said:
    In my  view, Religion has given purpose to many meaningless people, While at the same time giving hope to the hopeless.  And chances are one of them are right. So is it so bad , To try out a new religion?

    @Logic said: In my  view, Religion has given purpose to many meaningless people

    Hello Logic.
    You mean like Ferdinand and Isabella choosing the Inquisitors, meaningless, full of hate out of a job people for the Inquisition, .. that kind of "purpose"?

    The only "hope" any Religion has given to the hopeless is "false hope".





    This is what religion teaches;


    While these here starve


    The chances are that one of them are right? By all means, show me one that is right?

    Why not worship the One True and Only Possible, the uncreated God of Abraham, "The Creator" whom for obvious reasons no Religion can tolerate, and be religious about that, the truth!?
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Evidence People “love” to say “real” when speaking of their religion and gods. The implications is that they know the others are fake but theirs… theirs in the “real” one, or the way the worship is the “real” or “true” way. As an atheist, I have always found this funny. I mean it’s a theist saying how they can see all 2,999 of gods/20k+ denominations are fake, but this last one that they follow... it's not, and the irony of that is pretty funny to me. But even though you are just one god away from atheism, you are still a theist. (most theists are just one god away from atheism just like you...)

     

    On the “god is love”, and getting into the semantics of how you define love you seem to be trying for some mystic/higher plane stuff. Psychology defines 7 different types of love. (one of which is Agape) There is no mystic/higher plane mumbo jumbo on this. It's not "too difficult for the human mind to grasp" or whatever mystic you are trying to push.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201606/these-are-the-7-types-love

     

    Pantheism does not identify creator with created, pantheism says god is the universe, not that he created the universe. So no creation needed, and this is why I say the term religion is blurred. How do you define religion to include both “god created the universe”, “god is the universe”, and “we are all gods and goddesses”? With most organized religions, you have an entity. With pantheism, you don’t have an entity, but everything is connected. With new wave, there isn’t an “other” entity, humans are the entity, as well as all life is the entity. Semantically speaking that’s going to create blurry lines unless you segregate religion into 3 or more forms of religion. So yes, the lines are blurry.

    And you’re back to the mystic vague preaching at me again, still not buying what you are peddling. If you believe that jesus is the son of yahweh then you are a theist. If you just believe jesus is the son of the creator you are a theist. If you know who the creator is you are a theist. If you believe god is real you are a theist. I have defined the word theist very clearly, and even though you are attempting to muddy the water with all this talk of religion, you believe in a creator, you believe in a god, so you are a theist. Just because you don’t believe in OTHER gods, does not mean you are an atheist. That’s not the way it works. You only have to believe in one god to be a theist, and it really doesn’t matter how much mystic you attempt to use to muddy the waters by trying to make yourself seem better than other theists, you’re not. You are just like every other theist who have ever lived and all on the planet right now who thinks their god or their worship is the "real" or "true" way, and all the others aren't.

    @Evidence you are a theist. Period… end statement… your way isn't  "higher", "special", or "enlightened".

  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    @Coveny ;said: People “love” to say “real” when speaking of their religion and gods. The implications is that they know the others are fake but theirs… theirs in the “real” one, or the way the worship is the “real” or “true” way. As an atheist, I have always found this funny. I mean it’s a theist saying how they can see all 2,999 of gods/20k+ denominations are fake, but this last one that they follow... it's not, and the irony of that is pretty funny to me. But even though you are just one god away from atheism, you are still a theist. (most theists are just one god away from atheism just like you...)

    Lol, .. you missed the whole point. The "point was" to have you look outside of your religious indoctrination that says: "all gods belong in religion, and must be believed in without any evidence, .. on blind faith alone, or you cannot belong to this religion!"

    But I see you are very religious, and like all religious folk, the words "evidence", "proof" "real" and so on are meaningless to them, and it's because they don't want to give up their beliefs regardless of the evidence presented to them. I know how you feel, it is scary sometimes, the path is very narrow and full of thorns, and only a few people are willing to travel on it. This 'narrow path' is also very dangerous, and the consequences are just too great. Nevertheless, if you love and value truth, 'The Way' is worth it, for me anyways even if it costs me all.

    This is why the Lord said:
    Mathew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

    Now how does the above sentence make sense coming from Christianity, which is double the size of the second largest religion Islam, and 3, 4, 5 times the size/number of followers of the next religion in line, .. huh?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/5-religions-with-the-most_b_853000.html

    Christianity with 2.3 BILLION followers, now that's one "Wide Road" if you ask me!?

    @Coveny: But even though you are just one god away from atheism, you are still a theist.

    Yes, for you, .. just as for billions of other religious folk who can never turn, because all they know is the gods in religion, which must be taken on blind faith, just ask any religious person?
    Or better yet, show me just ONE god that you know outside of the ones in religion that they don't study in theology, or are not deities who live in the supernatural realm, .. just ONE?
    You can't because you're either a theist, or an atheist, .. which are two sides of the same coin; "Religion".

    See what I mean? And here I am talking about the Real Creator, which is out of the box/religion.

    Tell me, if I said the name "Henry Ford" the creator of the Ford Motor Company, would you consider him as a "real creator", .. or that I'm just babbling about religion again? How about "Nicola Tesla", or "Thomas Edison", .. real creators or they belong in religion!?

    @Coveny On the “god is love”, and getting into the semantics of how you define love you seem to be trying for some mystic/higher plane stuff. Psychology defines 7 different types of love. (one of which is Agape) There is no mystic/higher plane mumbo jumbo on this. It's not "too difficult for the human mind to grasp" or whatever mystic you are trying to push.

    Wait, .. so when a teen with a steady girlfriend takes a girl he just met at a party to the back bedroom, the girl should understand that he means it when he says: "But baby I love you, .. don't you believe me?" 
    No wonder teen pregnancy is so high, it's this: "There is no mystic/higher plane mumbo jumbo on the meaning of the word 'love' " type of religious belief that gets them there. No wonder you don't like the word "real", .. what do us evolving apes know about love anyways, .. right? Hey, it's mating season!

    As for the rest of your response, either you've not read a single word I wrote (which is not what I see), .. or you are so blinded by indoctrination (as we all are or were) that you read it, but unable to "see" my point, .. as if you had blinders on, .. the greatest of which is religion.

    You know, like when you go to a woman laying prostrate before a huge statue of the goddess Mother-Mary in prayer and you tell her: "But we are not to bow down before idols", .. she looks up at you, stares you in your eyes and says from the bottom of her heart: "Oh Lord no, I would never bow down before any idols!" .. because I have relatives that do, and say just that.

    @Coveny "And you’re back to the mystic vague preaching at me again, still not buying what you are peddling."

    .. OK, I am done here my friend, you are stuck in religion. I seen a spark there so I was hoping you could step outside of it for a bit, .. but no-can-do. I know it's hard, but you have to try harder.

    Is there ANYONE here that understands a little of what I am getting at? Anyone who can recognize the difference between characters like gods/creators created by religious fairytales, and a real Creator?

    Look, example:
    Zeus - Infinite
    Can anyone see the difference?
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Evidence
    All gods (including yours) must be believed in without any evidence on blind faith alone or you can not be a theist. If there was “evidence”, “proof”, or they were “real” it would not be faith. You say I feel evidence, proof, and real are meaningless, yet you have provided no evidence, proof, or stated anything real. I have just as much evidence, proof, and reality that thor exists as I do yahweh, jesus, or your creator. The same way you feel about thor, is the same way I feel about your god. 

    You say I’m religious? In the same way, the off is a TV station, in the same way that bald is a hair color, in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby, in the same way that abstinence is a sex act, in the same way that unemployment is a job, in the same way that healthy is a disease, and in the same way that barefoot is a type of shoe. Reality does not change to fit what you can understand. Just because you cannot understand living without a god doesn’t mean that I am the same way. Your fantasy does not apply to me, and you don’t even understand the words you use. I believe in no god, I worship no god, therefore I am an atheist, and @Evidence you are a theist because you believe in a god. 

    You want me to debate against bible being logical? ROFL I’m not a theist. Theism makes no sense logical sense. (and that includes your theism)

    More of your mystic semantics word play . All gods are outside of religion. Gods are created, then religions spring up from them. Take the FSM for example. The god was created, then the religion came into being around it. Scientology created by a book about gods (creating them), which then created a religion. Gods are created by man, then they spread the word, and religion is born. I’m just speaking of religions that you were most likely around during their conception, but they all follow the same model. Word of the god is spread, and religion is formed. When only one person believes, there is no religion. Your creator is the same way. You are not special, your theism is not different, and you are not outside of the box/label just because you don’t want to be boxed and labeled. If more believe the way you do it becomes a religion.

    Henry Ford created Ford Motor Company, adding the word “real” implies there are others who are attempting to take created for creating Ford Motor Company, and to my knowledge no one has. There is evidence, and proof that Henry Ford created Ford Motor Company, and that isn’t in question. Also, there is no religion that worships Henry Ford for creating a company, so yes you are just babbling about religion again. Tesla created a lot, Edison on the other hand has been shown to have stolen ideas from others and was not the “real” creator. (just like the various imaginary gods who take credit)

    Semantics is the discussion of the meaning of words. The more a word covers the more difficult it is to define it. Love covers many things to most people and therefore the meaning is blurry. (even worse than religion) However lying to a woman to get laid isn’t about the definition of love, and the meaning of love isn’t the cause for teen pregnancy. Teen pregnancy increases are directly tied to theist teaching abstinence rather than sex education. The science behind this is easily provable. Also I see nothing wrong with sex or “mating season”, I just think it should be don’t responsible and taught based on reality rather than fantasy.

    I didn’t say that I don’t like the word “real”. I have no problem with it. I said I find it funny when people with imaginary friends say their imaginary friend is “real” but other people’s imaginary friends aren’t. Would you prefer the word ironic instead?

    As for the false dichotomy of I either believe you or I didn’t read what you wrote. You may not understand that there are other options with your limited world view, but there are. I can read what you wrote, and find it to be utter bulls***, this is a valid third option. And again, god comes before religion, and your preaching to create a religion … that’s not a religion yet is an excellent example of that.

    I don’t tell people not to bow down before idols… I’m not a theist. Peddle your to someone who’s buying.

    You are not my friend, to say so is to lie, which is most of what you are doing in this thread. You are just like every other theist on the planet, you just have a different flavor of kool-aid. You have no great understanding, you have nothing but word play and trickery that you use to sound mystic and intelligent. You use that to fool others into believe you have a higher understand than them, your important, and you attempt to recruit disciples to your cause to create the religion you speak so strongly against. This is the nature of theism, it gives simple answers to complex questions, and removes the need for evidence, and proof. (neither of which have you shown any of) Also what you are peddling is not even that different from pantheism, so you are barely even changing the wrappings and trying to act like you’ve created something new or special. (to be fair all theist think their is special though) 

    As for your example, yes, I see I difference. Zeus (unlike Yahweh) wasn’t an infinite god. Zeus had powers beyond those of man but he wasn’t all knowing or all powerful. This is just another case of you trying to look smart, but really you're just babbling in an attempt to con people.
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    @Evidence
    All gods (including yours) must be believed in without any evidence on blind faith alone or you can not be a theist. If there was “evidence”, “proof”, or they were “real” it would not be faith. You say I feel evidence, proof, and real are meaningless, yet you have provided no evidence, proof, or stated anything real. I have just as much evidence, proof, and reality that thor exists as I do yahweh, jesus, or your creator. The same way you feel about thor, is the same way I feel about your god. 

    .....

    @Conevy : All gods (including yours) must be believed in without any evidence on blind faith alone or you can not be a theist.

    You've just said exactly what I've been trying to point out as one of your strongest religious beliefs, what you and billions of us have been indoctrinated with for thousands of years. Now read again what you just said, and then read what I have been saying all along.

    Did you read it again?
    This is rule number ONE of the World Wide Religious Indoctrination, and to make sure you read it again, here is what you said: "All gods (including yours) must be believed in without any evidence on blind faith alone or you can not be a theist."

    Hellooo, .. that's what I keep telling you, that to be a theist, you have to believe in these theistic gods without any evidence, on blind faith, .. which is WHY I am a true atheist (not the religious atheist who say they don't believe in any of these gods in theism, but all they do is talk about them), .. but me, I really DON'T believe in, or worship any of these gods as if they were real, because even the religions admit they are not.

    I believe in the One True God by definition, not by name, .. who can be evidenced through science, (observing the world around us including ourselves), and philosophy (the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline), .. yes, the "real One", .. the Only Possible One who is not existence (as you try to lay on me this pantheistic/Go Green/Recycle/Gaya/Eywa religion, but existence is IN Him, .. He is the Creator of existence/universe whatever your religion calls it. I call it "creation", so everything in existence is creation which was created by the uncreated Creator.

    Now how could I convince you otherwise if this (rather erroneous) "belief system" has been so deeply rooted in, .. in what you believe is your evolving brain!?
    What has your Pastor Dawkins been teaching you? That: "man thinks he has free will, but his 'mind' is the result of selection by some purposeless, accidental random chaotic evolution, the result of tectonic plate movement/environment and the food he eats."   So for me to even try to convince someone with such "opposing to nature" beliefs is futile.

    But because I consider you as my friend, despite the voices, .. what your favorite 'deities from the supernatural realm' (which you refuse to acknowledge) is telling you, like:

    "@Conevy said; You are not my friend, to say so is to lie, which is most of what you are doing in this thread. You are just like every other theist on the planet, you just have a different flavor of kool-aid. You have no great understanding, you have nothing but word play and trickery that you use to sound mystic and intelligent. You use that to fool others into believe you have a higher understand than them, your important, and you attempt to recruit disciples to your cause to create the religion you speak so strongly against." and you made it obvious that you are not about to give up any of your religious beliefs.

    .. even though I get tired of arguing with a brick wall, (heavily indoctrinated religious people), but since you took your time to answer my post (even though you did not address what I said but gave a generalized response from what YOU understood of what I said), I will respond, .. if for no other reason, to make sure others reading this could see for themselves the DIFFERENCE between one speaking from religious indoctrination, and one speaking from "faith" that was built on "evidence with substance", .. and not how you tell me that all gods have to be accepted by; blind faith! That is exactly what you're TELLING me.

    Again, .. here is what I have been saying all along, so let me rephrase it:

    "All gods that people go to Schools of Divinity and Trinity Colleges, or Mythical teachers, gurus to, to study, which is called theology must be believed in without any evidence, .. on blind faith alone, which is what every religion requires right off the bat, because they KNOW their gods are not real!"   In other words, they don't go there to question the reality of these gods/divine beings that rule in the supernatural realm, they just go to learn how to better communicate with them. They go to these schools:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=schools+of+divinity&oq=schools+of+divi&gs_l=serp.1.0.0l2j0i22i30k1l8.324621.331367.0.333631.29.21.0.0.0.0.202.2509.2j16j1.19.0....0...1.1.64.serp..13.16.2216.6..46j0i67k1j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i46k1j0i20k1.Rw215UWXEXQ

    .. to become "Masters in divinity", .. mediums to divining spirits. But it is not necessary to go to any school to divine for these spirits, anyone can speak on their behalf, as I shown you doing.
    To say that you are an atheist who doesn't believe in any of these gods because they are not real, is ridiculous.

    Why?

    Because the theist themselves admit they are not real, that you have to just believe without asking for evidence. The religion requires that you pretend that the particular god in that religion is real, no different than believing in Peter Pan:



    "I do believe in fairies, .. I do, and that the earth is a spinning ball in a vacuum called space, and that I am an evolving ape, and my ancestors are rats, .. and that if we just cut down enough trees for absolutely no reason, like we do at Christmas time, and chem-trail the hell out of our atmosphere in the name of "Go-Green" we can save the earth!" LOL

    What I am saying is NOT that these gods are not real, .. they are, if you just "believe" in them without seeking any evidence, .. as long as you take them on blind faith.
    God, our Creator on the other hand hates these gods (both idols, fairytale and demonic gods), because it occupies our mind and hearts, it takes mans mind away from reality. This is why in these Last Days all the Movies of Comic-Book Heroes are coming out so rapidly, to KEEP our minds in la-la land, .. or should I say "Gaga land".



    to be continued -
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    @Coveny You say I’m religious? In the same way, the off is a TV station, in the same way that bald is a hair color, in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby, in the same way that abstinence is a sex act, in the same way that unemployment is a job, in the same way that healthy is a disease, and in the same way that barefoot is a type of shoe. Reality does not change to fit what you can understand. Just because you cannot understand living without a god doesn’t mean that I am the same way. Your fantasy does not apply to me, and you don’t even understand the words you use. I believe in no god, I worship no god, therefore I am an atheist, and @Evidence you are a theist because you believe in a god.

    And again you present your religious beliefs, like that that the word "god" must be one of your gods in religion, the Greek gods that you say MUST be accepted on blind faith. Atheists acknowledge that "gods are not real, that they have to be accepted as real without any evidence"   just as theists do. You see why theism/atheism are two sides of the same coin; religion? And yes, if your religion teaches that "bald is a hair color", then that's what you'll have to believe and accept on blind faith.

    @Coveny said: Reality does not change to fit what you can understand.

    That's what @Erfisflat been showing you, that reality will not change to the sci-fi BB-fairytale no one can understand. So how are you handling the Flat Earth reality?

    @Coveny; Just because you cannot understand living without a god doesn’t mean that I am the same way.

    Hey, believe in what you want, religion rules this world. Me, I need evidence, and all evidence points to a Creator, and I know who the Creator is.

    "My fantasy don't apply to you?"   Who is the one who believes that the only gods that can exist are the ones in myths and fairytales? Or that the Earth and the heavens were created by a Religious Priests; "Big-Bang in nothing" story?
    I'm talking about "reality" here.

    @Coveny You want me to debate against bible being logical? ROFL I’m not a theist. Theism makes no sense logical sense. (and that includes your theism)

    What does "theism" has to do with the Bible?
    Religion can take a piece of wood and turn it into one of their gods that they then study in theology, so yes, that's what I have been saying that "theology makes no sense".
    The Bible reveals the Creator, while religion through their theology have taken the Bible and our Creator mentioned in there and by their man-made doctrines made Him out to be just another of their fairytale mythical god/gods.

    @Coveny More of your mystic semantics word play . All gods are outside of religion. Gods are created, then religions spring up from them. Take the FSM for example. The god was created, then the religion came into being around it. Scientology created by a book about gods (creating them), which then created a religion. Gods are created by man, then they spread the word, and religion is born. I’m just speaking of religions that you were most likely around during their conception, but they all follow the same model. Word of the god is spread, and religion is formed. When only one person believes, there is no religion. Your creator is the same way. You are not special, your theism is not different, and you are not outside of the box/label just because you don’t want to be boxed and labeled. If more believe the way you do it becomes a religion.

    That's what I've been saying, that the gods in religion were created by man, and then the religion, only I was hoping to open your, and everyone else's eyes to our One and Only Possible Infinite and Eternal Creator-God who can be known through evidence, .. not the created god/gods in religion that the world has been forced to believe in.

    Don't you see that some force has deceived man to believe a lie that; the ONLY gods that can exist are in religion? Which they must accept without questioning, without even seeking any evidence of? This is what you are teaching/preaching, that: "no gods can exist outside of religion"!? Wow, .. really!? And who are you to keep the truth from the people? Like your "Church of snake tongued NASA and 666CERN", forcing their religion on the world by, and through any and all means, secrecy, deception, censorship like that: "the only gods that you are allowed to 'believe' to exist, and worship are in the religions we, skull&bones member of secret societies have created! That; It is a sin to ask for evidence of any of our gods, it shows weakness, and is against our policy of "blind faith" that all religions require, to survive on!

    If I may quote one of JFK's last speeches:

    "Today no war has been declared--and however fierce the struggle may be, it may never be declared in the traditional fashion. Our way of life is under attack. Those who make themselves our enemy are advancing around the globe. The survival of our friends is in danger. And yet no war has been declared, no borders have been crossed by marching troops, no missiles have been fired.

    If the press is awaiting a declaration of war before it imposes the self-discipline of combat conditions, then I can only say that no war ever posed a greater threat to our security. If you are awaiting a finding of "clear and present danger," then I can only say that the danger has never been more clear and its presence has never been more imminent."

    There can be no greater danger than hiding God, AND His Creation like the earth, and especially man, and replacing Him in the minds of men with fake gods which you can't even ask the evidence of, and place our Flat Earth in some imaginary sci-fi fairyland, and make man out to be an animal, an ape, anything sub-human which is the religious ideas you are proselytizing.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    @Evidence  he's dodging the argument altogether which is disappointing, but not surprising, most devout atheists do. You'd think verifiable evidence of God would convert any atheist.


    Evidence
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:

    You are not my friend, to say so is to lie, which is most of what you are doing in this thread. You are just like every other theist on the planet, you just have a different flavor of kool-aid. You have no great understanding, you have nothing but word play and trickery that you use to sound mystic and intelligent. You use that to fool others into believe you have a higher understand than them, your important, and you attempt to recruit disciples to your cause to create the religion you speak so strongly against. This is the nature of theism, it gives simple answers to complex questions, and removes the need for evidence, and proof. (neither of which have you shown any of) Also what you are peddling is not even that different from pantheism, so you are barely even changing the wrappings and trying to act like you’ve created something new or special. (to be fair all theist think their is special though) 


    @Coveny Henry Ford created Ford Motor Company, adding the word “real” implies there are others who are attempting to take created for creating Ford Motor Company, and to my knowledge no one has. There is evidence, and proof that Henry Ford created Ford Motor Company, and that isn’t in question. Also, there is no religion that worships Henry Ford for creating a company, so yes you are just babbling about religion again. Tesla created a lot, Edison on the other hand has been shown to have stolen ideas from others and was not the “real” creator. (just like the various imaginary gods who take credit)

    Yes, other so called gods, deities are attempting to take credit in creating the heavens and the earth too, you're right.

    @Coveny Semantics is the discussion of the meaning of words. The more a word covers the more difficult it is to define it. Love covers many things to most people and therefore the meaning is blurry. (even worse than religion) However lying to a woman to get laid isn’t about the definition of love, and the meaning of love isn’t the cause for teen pregnancy. Teen pregnancy increases are directly tied to theist teaching abstinence rather than sex education. The science behind this is easily provable. Also I see nothing wrong with sex or “mating season”, I just think it should be don’t responsible and taught based on reality rather than fantasy.

    As I pointed out, the "meaning of love" is most definitely a big part of the 'cause of teen pregnancy'.
    What exactly is the fantasy version of "mating season and getting laid", which for humans can be every day?? I believe you have lost the ability to differentiate between fantasy and reality a long time ago, .. that's if you even had it at all coming from your obvious strict religious indoctrination.

    @Coveny I didn’t say that I don’t like the word “real”. I have no problem with it. I said I find it funny when people with imaginary friends say their imaginary friend is “real” but other people’s imaginary friends aren’t. Would you prefer the word ironic instead?

    Umm, ... how do you see/understand the words: Creator, God, Bible, creation again? You see, you can't even think outside your religious indoctrination (box) to answer this. Creator, God, Bible, creation must remain within your little box of religion and it's indoctrination, where NO god is even allowed to be mentioned outside of that! And yes, the better word for this IS ironic.

    @Coveny As for the false dichotomy of I either believe you or I didn’t read what you wrote. You may not understand that there are other options with your limited world view, but there are. I can read what you wrote, and find it to be utter bulls***, this is a valid third option. And again, god comes before religion, and your preaching to create a religion … that’s not a religion yet is an excellent example of that.

    MY limited world view??
    Tell me again: can you even imagine a Creator outside of your religious indoctrination?  Because I can, and I have.
    Also, a Book teaching us History and the dangers of worshipping gods in religion, and warning against hypocritical religious doctrines does not have to be a religious book. But yes, even a piece of stick can be made into a religious item, and your inability to realize this shows which one of us is the religious one. I bet you believe man landed on the moon too, .. right?

    @Coveny I don’t tell people not to bow down before idols… I’m not a theist. Peddle your to someone who’s buying.

    Theists/atheists have been so brainwashed that they can't even tell the difference between religion and reality!?
    If you believe in the BB-Evolution sci-fi fairytale, you are religious. If you are not allowed to accept, or even think about a Creator-God outside of religion, you are religious. If you have been made to believe that humans are animals, apes, not so distant relatives of rats, .. you are religious.

    The very fact that you think I'm selling something shows your religious indoctrination, because religions do sell something, it's all about money and power.
    Did I ask you for money, or to join my church so you can help pay my car, house etc? The only black person I've shown here is Ota Benga who was brought from Africa by the religious Satanist skull&bones worshipping Evolutionists.




    @Coveny You are not my friend, to say so is to lie, which is most of what you are doing in this thread. You are just like every other theist on the planet, you just have a different flavor of kool-aid. You have no great understanding, you have nothing but word play and trickery that you use to sound mystic and intelligent. You use that to fool others into believe you have a higher understand than them, your important, and you attempt to recruit disciples to your cause to create the religion you speak so strongly against. This is the nature of theism, it gives simple answers to complex questions, and removes the need for evidence, and proof. (neither of which have you shown any of) Also what you are peddling is not even that different from pantheism, so you are barely even changing the wrappings and trying to act like you’ve created something new or special. (to be fair all theist think their is special though) 


    "This is the nature of theism, it gives simple answers to complex questions, and removes the need for evidence, and proof."   True, but not just theism, but atheism does that too; "trust us, we are scientists assigned by and under the direction of the Pope himself! God did not create the earth, George Lemaitre did with a Big Bang" and Mr. Higgs boson gave the growth, and I the Pope is God.



    time 0:01:38 WHooooshh! I mean this is priceless.
    And again, .. I'm not creating something New, nor is this about any "created-gods", I am just revealing the Creator which should be as obvious to everyone as their nose on their faces. But in a world run by religions, and both history and science interpreted by religious indoctrinations, this seems futile. where even the logic of humans is controlled by religion, so outside of God opening the minds-eye to someone Himself, through His Son by some miracle, this is next to impossible.

    @Coveny As for your example, yes, I see I difference. Zeus (unlike Yahweh) wasn’t an infinite god. Zeus had powers beyond those of man but he wasn’t all knowing or all powerful. This is just another case of you trying to look smart, but really you're just babbling in an attempt to con people.

    I mean come on, stop with me trying to con people already. Look, you allowed yourself to go this far, you peaked out of the box so why stop now?
    Yes, Zeus is a creator, but obviously a created one, right?

    There can only be One Creator, and He has to be "uncreated" correct? Otherwise we have the problem of infinite regress, or we confuse Infinite with infinity. like infinite numbers and such.

    Now what is Infinite?

    In religious science, Infinite does not exist (admitting it does ,would be the end of that religion), just as "nothing" is not nothing anymore, and chaos creates order if you wait long enough, .. and so on. But the true and only logical explanation of Infinite is that it has to exist if we agree anything finite exists, and anything 'finite' has to be in Infinite (all you have to do is some scientific experiments with your mind).

    Infinite is NOT space
    not existence
    not a being
    and since anything finite had to be created, the Only Answer is by Infinite.

    Oh well, see how you guys digest this first? I mean this is milk, shouldn't be hard on anyone.
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Evidence
    Well I just opened a book to crazy land. That is a LOT of fluffy with little to no content in it. You continue to play word games and speak around the topic of how your god is different than other gods. You try to change the meaning of theism and atheism to suit your needs, and make the meaning contradictory. I’m not going to address your book of Bulls*** that you wrote .

    If you have proof of your god show me. If you have evidence of your god show me. Oh you don’t do you? You require blind faith… just like every other theist on the planet. Why is it you think you blind faith is different from any other blind faith? I have no blind faith, I deal in what can be proven, nothing you have said can be proven, and it’s vague as s***. Stop with the word play though. 

    “everything in existence is creation which was created by the uncreated Creator”– You create logical impossibilities… 

    I tell you I’m an atheist and you say I refuse to pick my favorite “deities from the supernatural realm”. Well duh?

    Flat earth “reality”? ROFL man you are nuts. There are so many ways to prove the earth isn’t flat.

    In the same paragraph, you say “What does "theism" has to do with the Bible?” and “The Bible reveals the Creator”. Are you serious? You can’t make that connection? You need that explained to you? ROFL

    I have already stated that god can exist outside of religion. (man, you love to play with the word religion don’t you) I could create a god today, and there would be no religion for that god until I get others to believe. Also there are 3k in gods and 20k+ religions off those gods and you act like you’re a victim who can’t have the religion you want because the others are oppressing you. Ya man we just can’t handle 20,001 religions in the world… it’s just to much. ROFL

    Logical impossibilities: “how do you see/understand the words: Creator, God, Bible, creation again? You see, you can't even think outside your religious indoctrination (box) to answer this. Creator, God, Bible, creation must remain within your little box of religion and its indoctrination, where NO god is even allowed to be mentioned outside of that!” No I can’t define god outside of the definition of god? No I can’t mention god outside of mentioning god. Define your god so that it can’t be applied to other gods, let’s see how good your semantics “truly” are. Just understand religion has NOTHING to do with defining the word god.

    You have a book… I have a LOT of books. One of us has a limited view… 

    Yes, I believe man landed on the moon because there is a lot of proof of it. You obviously don’t care about “proof” though so here’s an article that I think your conspiracy heart might be open to.

    More mystic : “If you are not allowed to accept, or even think about a Creator-God outside of religion, you are religious.” So, I’m religious because I don’t think the way you want me to? I’m worshiping not playing golf, am I? ROFL

    As for evolution, obviously there is a TON more proof, but this one is my favorite.

    “Did I ask you for money, or to join my church so you can help pay my car, house etc?” Yes you did… several times.

    Science does not work on the “trust us” method. ROFL So much from you…

    No there cannot be only one answer, and that answer is an “uncreated” creator. All you are saying is that your all-powerful god has always existed, and that you cannot believe that dirt has always existed. You are word playing around it, but in your limited view you can’t believe anything but god. You cannot fathom existence without… god. I can, do, and live my life that way. 

    Oh look more semantic word play. You want to talk about infinite and infinity… you define them. How I define them is going to be what Webster, and other dictionaries define them as…

    Let me tell you how I digest this, you are full of s***. You are a theist who wants to be better than other theist, so you try to sound smart, when all you really do is look the opposite. You sound a LOT like Jim Jones and pantheism though, you aren't even original...
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    @Coveny i destroyed that popsci article, actually read the debate. You had to ask Google why you think you are a monkey on a spinning ball! Rofl @globetards
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    @evidence the jigs up, @coveny proved we landed on the moon with his calculator!  This is just too much! Roflmmfao
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    @Coveny what scientific experiments have you performed to empirically validate any aspect of your belief system? 
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat name calling, ridicule, dismissal, and I wasn't even talking to you, @Evidence it looks like you DO have a religion after all...

    Erfisflat said:
    @Coveny i destroyed that popsci article, actually read the debate. You had to ask Google why you think you are a monkey on a spinning ball! Rofl @globetards
    Ctrl F erfisflat - Nope no previous responses to an article I posted. So you are a . (this is my shocked face) You haven't "destroyed" anything, you haven't even spoken against my article, you just make s*** up and expect people not to call you out on it trum...  erfisflat. I'm not buying the you are selling...

    Erfisflat said:
    @Coveny what scientific experiments have you performed to empirically validate any aspect of your belief system? 
    And it seems you also follow @Evidence complete disregard for the meaning of words. Atheists don't have belief systems, they don't have religion, they don't have gods, and they don't need to believe in anything, much less have a system or structure for that lack of belief. It is a lack of believe in any god that makes a person an athiest. This should not be a difficult concept to understand.

    Look evolution has been proven 9 ways to sunday, if you deny it, you are just being hardheaded. The moon landing happened, the idea that the entire world (which includes nations that hate us) would help in the coverup is ridiculous to begin with, but there is crap left on the moon that can be seen from Earth. Round earth has been proven so many times it's sad that people still buy that , but there are things you can do to test it yourself. But instead of going with logic, reason, and evidence you go with mysticism, while looking down on other mysticism, and I find that hilarious. You are both completely full of s***.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -   edited July 2017
    @Coveny
    I see you haven't bothered to even read my debate, or you would know who is the . If you'd like, I can copy it here, but you probably wouldn't understand your own model, let alone mine. It's all there, most here will agree. Tell you what, ask Google to pick your favorite for you.


    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat
    You didn't post it to THIS debate, just how egotistical are you? I'm not going to look through every post you've ever made. If you say you destroyed my article, do it in THIS thread, or (and this is a CRAZY idea) link something... 

    You are a ...


  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    @Covent belief system 


    faith based on a series of beliefs but notformalized into a religion; also, a fixedcoherent set of beliefs prevalent in acommunity or society

    Nothing about your belief system is empirically verifiable. So you are accepting words that men wrote as infallible fact. You believe you're a monkey on a spinning ball because you were taught so. If you have verifiable evidence, present it.

    "there is crap left on the moon that can be seen from Earth."

    Example. Have you seen this yourself? 

    "Round earth has been proven so many times"

    Not on the earth is flat debate,  and certainly not here, or when you were confronted about it. Your belief system is based on pseudoscience, and since you dodged my last question, (ultimately all of them) you may or may not realize your ignorance. Do you know what the scientific method is? 
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • CovenyCoveny 419 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat a "believe" system by nature isn't empirically verifiable... that's why it's a belief system. Did you and Evidence just tap out so you could cycle the crazy around?

    Science isn't "infallible", science has proven itself wrong many times as our knowledge of the universe grows. 

    Ah the "you must know everything yourself, or you just have faith" angle. Not how that works, I don't have to burn myself to know a stove is hot. Science has checks and peer review that do the verification for me. It's not possible to know all the knowledge accumulated by mankind, but it is a higher likelihood of being correct than some random person's opinion. This is where credibility  and reputability come into play. People like you believe that your opinion holds the same weight as science, and nothing could be further from the truth. The scientific method is a way to get past opinion, and become objective about measuring and understanding the universe we live in. It's a way to say I don't believe you unless I can reproduce your results. It's a way for others to look at the methods you used and nitpick them apart if they do NOT take bias out of the equation, and it's a process that continues to get better and be refined to this day. Science doesn't have all the answers, science doesn't lie and say it's never wrong, but you also never see a theist come along and overturn science... another scientist has to do that. 

    Now as for your questions. No I have not seen the stuff that's on the moon, I don't have an interest in it. I have however seen that the earth is round. This isn't a debate about the moon, or a flat earth though is it? You are just wandering around on topics because you have nothing but fluffy when it comes to theism vs atheism. 
  • EvidenceEvidence 814 Pts   -  
    Coveny said:
    @Evidence
    Well I just opened a book to crazy land. That is a LOT of fluffy with little to no content in it. You continue to play word games and speak around the topic of how your god is different than other gods. You try to change the meaning of theism and atheism to suit your needs, and make the meaning contradictory. I’m not going to address your book of Bulls*** that you wrote .
    ...
    @Coveny Well I just opened a book to crazy land. That is a LOT of fluffy with little to no content in it. You continue to play word games and speak around the topic of how your god is different than other gods. You try to change the meaning of theism and atheism to suit your needs, and make the meaning contradictory. I’m not going to address your book of Bulls*** that you wrote .

    So you don't want to even address my views, .. why? Because you don't want me to look silly by proving me wrong? Aahh.. you're sooo nice, thanks!

    @Coveny If you have proof of your god show me. If you have evidence of your god show me. Oh you don’t do you? You require blind faith… just like every other theist on the planet. Why is it you think you blind faith is different from any other blind faith? I have no blind faith, I deal in what can be proven, nothing you have said can be proven, and it’s vague as s***. Stop with the word play though.

    I have tried theists, like Christians, and I have tried atheists, and both sides respond the same indoctrinated way, so I didn't expect any different from you. I have given you the proof, but what you don't see just how deeply indoctrinated you are. I mean you just laughed at me for questioning you if you believe in the moon landing or not, .. I mean that's FIRST thing that people wake up to because, like most of us, we never took another look, we just accepted this huge hoax. Never giving it a second thought who were the ones that created the hoax? It was the Nazi scientist who just got off the plane from torturing Jewish twins in the concentration camps in Germany.

    I mean just look at what ideology/belief system governs these high Priests/Priestesses at 666CERN




    and this is how they worship their gods/goddesses:



    So if the plethora of evidence that @Erfisflat provided on the flat earth hasn't convinced you, buddy the LAST thing your MK-Ultra'd brain would, or even could accept is evidence of our Creator. So not only are you in a box, but in a box that's in a box, a religious atheist. It would take a lifetime to unpack you from all the indoctrinations.
    And then (just like some of my friends I talked to), even after they got convinced, they jumped back in the box They don't even want to talk about having been out of the box. Maybe you guys just feel safer there, .. I don't know!?

    @Coveny Logical impossibilities: “how do you see/understand the words: Creator, God, Bible, creation again? You see, you can't even think outside your religious indoctrination (box) to answer this. Creator, God, Bible, creation must remain within your little box of religion and its indoctrination, where NO god is even allowed to be mentioned outside of that!” No I can’t define god outside of the definition of god? No I can’t mention god outside of mentioning god. Define your god so that it can’t be applied to other gods, let’s see how good your semantics “truly” are. Just understand religion has NOTHING to do with defining the word god.

    I said that as soon as I mention Creator-God, Creation, Bible, .. people have been taught to associate these words with "religion", which is what you've been doing. So I said; you cannot even see these words outside of "religion", .. do you understand now?

    You know why that is? Because we've been trained, .. programmed to think that way, to associate words with false, or deceptive definitions, to place them certain unrelated categories, so we would never find our One True Infinite Creator.

    Why?

    Because look how many BILLIONS of dollars these religious worshippers of Shiva make like NASA and CERN, who call themselves atheists, .. and look how much the other side of the coin make, the theists!
    Religion is money, so they hide God from everyone, and give them one ultimatum, if people want God, they can choose from their religions, where they have tens of thousands of them. Where they have a god/goddess for both theists and atheist Like CERN's Shiva, the prancing god/goddess of Quantum Physics.

    @Coveny As for evolution, obviously there is a TON more proof, but this one is my favorite.


    Oh man @Erfisflat this evidence of evolution is almost as good, if not better than NASA's "Blue Marble" photo of earth!?
    Right there before our very eyes, viruses turn into tadpoles, then to lizards, then get out of the primordial soup, grow legs, lungs, hands and climb a banana tree, and now some of them evolved into monkeys, .. and, .. and, .. wait, That's It? Where do they speciate into humans?

    WOW, this is proof of evolution, and playing with water droplets in the ISS Zero-G Plane is proof of space. This is really sad. What's even worse is that this probably cost us taxpayers a billion dollars! I mean hey, viruses are hard to come by these days, .. with the economy so bad you know!

    @Coveny No there cannot be only one answer, and that answer is an “uncreated” creator. All you are saying is that your all-powerful god has always existed, and that you cannot believe that dirt has always existed. You are word playing around it, but in your limited view you can’t believe anything but god. You cannot fathom existence without… god. I can, do, and live my life that way.


    Yes, there CAN ONLY BE ONE ANSWER, that "Infinite is conscious" as in "I Am"

    Dirt was created, Intelligently Designed by God.
    God is not 'existence', existence is his creation.
    God is not a being, the best I heard anyone describe Him is Paul Tillich, "God is not a being, but the ground of being", when I read this, I was elated, I knew exactly where he was coming from, and what he meant by it. Oh I wished that Paul was still alive, so we could have shared our ideas!?
    Our mind, that spirit in us is of, and is God.
    No, we are not God, but children of God. That spirit, that breath that God breathed into Adam is of God and is God, but in this body, the spirit becomes a complete individual, with it's own free will.
    Our mind is as Infinite as God is, and as God, there is nothing impossible for us, and since our mind is Infinite, we never run out of space for our imagination.. well yeah, our mind is of God.
    As I understand from the Bible, this spirit will remain an individual with, or without a body, like Gods Holy Spirit. But God already prepared a better model of a body for us, one that will never get old, so be wise and choose wisely where you will spend eternity with your New-body!

    Those that chose other gods, like the Big-Bang-god as their Creator, God has prepared just the place for them; "in outer darkness" and here they can wait for a Big-Bang to create them a place they can live, but from what I understand from science, thing just don't pop-out of darkness and evolve. We have to have something to create from too so what we didn't create, God must have, we sure didn't!

    Look at the war Satan, and now those who took sides with Satan fight, trying to "be like the Most High" hoping to capture mans soul/mind, record it on disk/memory stick and put it in a robot, so they could escape Gods Judgement and live eternally, .. LOL





    there are a lot of movies with this ideology
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