frame

Feminism, Misandrists and Equality

Opening Argument

Absolute equality is equality in all aspects.

A lot of us have watched feminist videos where feminists discuss their rights, violations against them and how they feel about men doing things. A misandrist is basically someone who dislikes men. And feminism is not just about supporting women's right or the advocacy of women's rights but the philosophy of social equality among both sexes. I'm not a believer nor am I someone who pushes ABSOLUTE equality because I've seen athletes have insane salary compared to military forces when they're both people for the country but the theme here is equality for both sexes. Now equality isn't constant nor present in a global scale how much more on a gender-based scale? Countries may have more bombs, population and resources compared to others. Absolute Equality is absolutely impossible. 

I thought we had a major idea of accepting change and difference but this feminism is a threat to that major idea. First of all, I want feminism to be much more defined in which aspects should social equality be implied because people are getting lost here for a shallow definition of a term, not just women. Should it be applied in wage and rights or groceries and privileges? Should all products just be uni-sex so we don't offend anyone? Should all women hold the privilege to impregnate other women for the sake of equality or even make pregnancy possible for men for that equality??? Do women also want to be as equally treated and accused of rape as much as men? Do they even want that privilege??? A standardised theory or perhaps full publication of feminism and its exact scope will satisfy me.

So please, we must define modern feminism and evaluate its true stand and not just listen to feminists/misandrists and associate their idea to feminism. No there must be norms to feminism because it can be a great concept women may uphold given it is well-defined like how other concepts have been well-defined such as math or even quantum mechanics. I believe like good and evil, there's both equality and inequality. For now, No to today's modern feminism because it's messy and poorly defined.

If there is anyone who'd like to discuss any other concept like Male Superiority and how feminism eliminates such, I am open-minded.
marijuansnatbaronsbillpassedspandamcomey_testify

Status: Open Debate


Arguments

  • Equality is seen from different point of views and has different definitions in all of most of those people's eyes. I am a supporter of equality, in my point of view, but maybe not someone else's. I believe that woman deserve the same rights as men, and African Americans deserve the same rights as whites. Here's what I don't believe in... illegal immigrants taking American tax payer dollars... people who spend their welfare money on pot or expensive goods getting welfare... etc. that is un fair and should be occurring. So, again, I'm a full believer in equality, but my definition of equality is people who work deserve equality gaining equality.
    ImbsterSilverishGoldNova
  • ImbsterImbster 95 Pts
    marijuans said:
    Equality is seen from different point of views and has different definitions in all of most of those people's eyes. I am a supporter of equality, in my point of view, but maybe not someone else's. I believe that woman deserve the same rights as men, and African Americans deserve the same rights as whites. Here's what I don't believe in... illegal immigrants taking American tax payer dollars... people who spend their welfare money on pot or expensive goods getting welfare... etc. that is un fair and should be occurring. So, again, I'm a full believer in equality, but my definition of equality is people who work deserve equality gaining equality.
    I also believe in equality and inequality and no doubt agree women should have the same rights as men in accordance to the Bill of Rights and not in accordance to their emotions. If they feel they have a much smaller wage become a female athlete then because I believe the Bill of Rights has corrected that or perhaps this woman is comparing herself with a male in a higher employment position. I cannot seem to find any good political sources so if you may enlighten me, are there any rights both women and men should have but only men or only women have those rights?

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  • Honestly, modern feminism isn't needed, in fact it's just a push for women supremacy. Many of their leaders have either demanded that all men either be killed or put in a concentration camp like community that functions as a public library but for men instead of books. Because of modern feminism, a man can get arrested for sexual assault just by looking at a woman on a college campus. YouTuber Gary Orsum, points out other ways that feminism is damaging society, mostly in Australia. One example is how men aren't allowed to fly with their children, because "all men are rapists and child molesters". In a video that Gary published, he showed an interview from a documentary on the subject of feminism in Australia. In the interview, the interviewee talked about how he was asked to sit in a different row than his kids just because he was a man. He also stated that the flight attendant that moved him also had some random woman that he didn't know sit with his kids instead. Knowing this, I'd like to point out the popular feminist belief that only men can be rapists. Not all of them, but a lot of them strongly believe that girls cannot rape anyone and men cannot be raped by anyone.


    Another good example would be the Safe Schools program that has been introduced to the Australian school system. The program was originally presented as an anti-bullying program for the misfits of society (i.e. fat people, gingers, etc.) At first, most of the public was in support of it, the rest weren't because of who created it. The creator, Roz Ward, is a known feminist and Marxist with the ultimate goal of turning Australia into a communist country. Public opinion soon changed when a leaked video of a secret meeting hosted by Roz Ward showed footage of her, the creator of the safe schools program, saying that the true purpose of the program is to force pre-pubescent children to accept their sexual identity. Many parents have further proved this when they started complaining about how their children were being taught that heterosexuality was evil and a bad thing. Stories have also surfaced from higher level grade schools about how heterosexual students were often ridiculed and punished just for their sexuality. It's also known that the safe school program is also noticeably aggressive towards boys. It teaches boys to feel ashamed of themselves because they were born as such. Another reason the government and general public have changed their mind about the program is the recent increase in numbers of pre-pubescent boys getting sex changes. A medical professional who operated on some of these young boys talked about how they were compelled to  (or rater bullied to) by the safe schools program.


    Another problem modern feminism presents is the example they set for our children. Look at the protests from President Trump's inauguration to present day. They run around naked, wearing vagina hats/costumes and spewing vulgar and slander. Young children are very impressionable. They'll take a look at this behavior and think it's okay, then they'll be doing it. Also, take a look at this video that Gary Orsum posted. I know I keep going back to him, but he makes some very valid points, like in the video that I just suggested you take a look at. He shows video that proves feminism is a bad influence on young children and he points it out.



    Anyway. On your point of equality, almost every country already has obtained true equality. The only exceptions would be the Middle East and some Asian countries. Everywhere else, including America, has achieved true equality. You'll hear women complain about how they make less than men, or sexual assault victims are punished instead of the perpetrator. All of these arguments that feminists have created are lies. Economists, many governments and a large multitude of unbiased surveys proving them to be such. It's well known that the amount you make is dependent on how much you work. The amount of hours you get depends on how hard you work and what kind of job you have. Part time jobs tend to offer less hours than a full time job. As for sexual assault perpetrators? The average sentence for sex offenders is 5 years and 3 months in prison. How are they not getting punished again?

    No, we already have equality. What we need, is equity. If you don't know what the difference is, allow me to explain.

    Let's say there are 3 boys in a field. Each boy is a different size and their trying to watch a baseball game over a fence. One boy is tall and has no problem seeing over the fence, the next boy is of average height and can see over the fence, but just barely, the 3rd boy is really short and can't see over the fence at all. Equality is when you give each boy the same sized box to help them see over the fence. They each get a box, but their heights don't change. The tall boy is still very tall, the average size boy is still average sized and the short boy is still short. Equity is when you give the two smaller boys two different sized boxes that will put them at equal height as the tall boy. Now all three boys are watching from the same exact vantage point.

    As you can see, we must obtain equity. Then and only then, we will all truly be equal with the only difference being financially. I do support a capitalist (or free market) system.
    ImbsternatbaronsSilverishGoldNova
  • ImbsterImbster 95 Pts
    Honestly, modern feminism isn't needed, in fact it's just a push for women supremacy. Many of their leaders have either demanded that all men either be killed or put in a concentration camp like community that functions as a public library but for men instead of books. Because of modern feminism, a man can get arrested for sexual assault just by looking at a woman on a college campus. YouTuber Gary Orsum, points out other ways that feminism is damaging society, mostly in Australia. One example is how men aren't allowed to fly with their children, because "all men are rapists and child molesters". In a video that Gary published, he showed an interview from a documentary on the subject of feminism in Australia. In the interview, the interviewee talked about how he was asked to sit in a different row than his kids just because he was a man. He also stated that the flight attendant that moved him also had some random woman that he didn't know sit with his kids instead. Knowing this, I'd like to point out the popular feminist belief that only men can be rapists. Not all of them, but a lot of them strongly believe that girls cannot rape anyone and men cannot be raped by anyone.


    Another good example would be the Safe Schools program that has been introduced to the Australian school system. The program was originally presented as an anti-bullying program for the misfits of society (i.e. fat people, gingers, etc.) At first, most of the public was in support of it, the rest weren't because of who created it. The creator, Roz Ward, is a known feminist and Marxist with the ultimate goal of turning Australia into a communist country. Public opinion soon changed when a leaked video of a secret meeting hosted by Roz Ward showed footage of her, the creator of the safe schools program, saying that the true purpose of the program is to force pre-pubescent children to accept their sexual identity. Many parents have further proved this when they started complaining about how their children were being taught that heterosexuality was evil and a bad thing. Stories have also surfaced from higher level grade schools about how heterosexual students were often ridiculed and punished just for their sexuality. It's also known that the safe school program is also noticeably aggressive towards boys. It teaches boys to feel ashamed of themselves because they were born as such. Another reason the government and general public have changed their mind about the program is the recent increase in numbers of pre-pubescent boys getting sex changes. A medical professional who operated on some of these young boys talked about how they were compelled to  (or rater bullied to) by the safe schools program.


    Another problem modern feminism presents is the example they set for our children. Look at the protests from President Trump's inauguration to present day. They run around naked, wearing vagina hats/costumes and spewing vulgar and slander. Young children are very impressionable. They'll take a look at this behavior and think it's okay, then they'll be doing it. Also, take a look at this video that Gary Orsum posted. I know I keep going back to him, but he makes some very valid points, like in the video that I just suggested you take a look at. He shows video that proves feminism is a bad influence on young children and he points it out.



    Anyway. On your point of equality, almost every country already has obtained true equality. The only exceptions would be the Middle East and some Asian countries. Everywhere else, including America, has achieved true equality. You'll hear women complain about how they make less than men, or sexual assault victims are punished instead of the perpetrator. All of these arguments that feminists have created are lies. Economists, many governments and a large multitude of unbiased surveys proving them to be such. It's well known that the amount you make is dependent on how much you work. The amount of hours you get depends on how hard you work and what kind of job you have. Part time jobs tend to offer less hours than a full time job. As for sexual assault perpetrators? The average sentence for sex offenders is 5 years and 3 months in prison. How are they not getting punished again?

    No, we already have equality. What we need, is equity. If you don't know what the difference is, allow me to explain.

    Let's say there are 3 boys in a field. Each boy is a different size and their trying to watch a baseball game over a fence. One boy is tall and has no problem seeing over the fence, the next boy is of average height and can see over the fence, but just barely, the 3rd boy is really short and can't see over the fence at all. Equality is when you give each boy the same sized box to help them see over the fence. They each get a box, but their heights don't change. The tall boy is still very tall, the average size boy is still average sized and the short boy is still short. Equity is when you give the two smaller boys two different sized boxes that will put them at equal height as the tall boy. Now all three boys are watching from the same exact vantage point.

    As you can see, we must obtain equity. Then and only then, we will all truly be equal with the only difference being financially. I do support a capitalist (or free market) system.
    Amazing job with the presentation of your points but might I suggest that the feminists you have mentioned show hatred towards men and are therefore misandrists also. Modern Feminism now takes on the shape and form of misandry which is now a huge threat to society given the strong examples you have mentioned. I never knew women would now do such and the last thing I heard was a girl wishing to join the boy scouts. Now true equality is something you have yet to define specifically before I may comment. I strongly agree with obtaining equity because there is no major threat probable to occur with obtaining such. I see equity as something ultimately good having wealth equitably distributed, we'll get those boxes to have equity in national security and probably a fair chance against any other country. What should be the basis of equitable wealth distribution though? I mean if we want to be as rich as a bank it can be pulled off given an insane executive order.
    natbarons
  • The reality is. There is the species homo-sapiens.
    The female of the species produces an egg. The male of the species produces sperm to fertilize the egg.
    This is how the species perpetuates.
    Other than the basic necessities and functions that the species requires for survival,
    everything else is evolved conceptual nonsense.
    That is to say, feminism and misandry and of course misogyny are all evolved conceptual nonsense.


    VaulkImbster
  • @Imbster ;
    I'll just address your first argument. Feminism is and can be many things. The majority of people who use the label feminist tend to assign it to only one thing: the definition. Others, and those who do not identify as feminists, usually criticize it as a movement.

    I don't think there needs to be a clear guideline for what modern feminist theory is, unless one is created and people decide to strictly abide by it, which they don't. There are many interpretations of the definition, but ultimately the feminist movement can be judged and defined by the collective actions and ideas of its majority. Look no farther than all the commonly reiterated arguments you can find online. Here are some examples:

    - Women make 78 cents to a man's dollar
    - Women are discouraged from going into scientific fields
    - Dress codes are unfair and sexist

    ...all of which are very commonly seen and therefore can be associated with the feminist theory.

    agsr
  • @Fredsnephew, that is unfortunately a really simplistic view. Have you read or heard of the book Men are Mars and  Women from Venus.  It sure feels often that we are different species that are wired pretty differently.  Being different is okay, and that's what makes it work well in many ways (but not without it's issues).  It is important to understand and acknowledge these difference, but also accept that both sexes should get access to similar opportunities.  I have full confidence in women's ability to be successful in many fields, but I find it often true (with many exceptions) that some stereotypes are founded on reality.
    Live Long and Prosper
  • VaulkVaulk 288 Pts
    edited June 5
    @melanielust ,

    So if I understand you correctly, there are two types of people who use the feminist label, those who understand feminism and those who don't identify as feminists and therefor criticize the movement of feminism?  That's a broad brush stroke you have there.  I wasn't aware the palette only came with two colors. 

    Firstly I'd like to address your statement about Feminism being many things.  Words mean things, we cannot redefine the meaning of a word to fit an agenda and as such "Feminism" has but one meaning.  Now, that being said we can each individually decide what Feminism means to us, I'd like to think this would be based on personal experience and logical deduction but we all know there's Human bias (Which is natural), there's stereotypes (Which are also perfectly natural) and there's predisposition...which may be included as bias but specifically addresses personal experiences that may have played the major role in deciding what something means to you before you truly learn what it is.

    Secondly, while you're very much entitled to your opinion and I will always respect your right to hold your own, I don't think a movement as important as "Feminism" can afford to have an unclear or uncertain method.  Now I could be wrong because I was wrong yesterday and I'm certain I'll be wrong again today, but I believe the ideology or theory behind Feminism is simply that if Women and Men properly advocate Women's rights based on equality between the Sexes then equality will be achieved.

    Thirdly, while the Feminist movement certainly could be judged and defined by the collective actions and ideas of the majority...the Feminism movement and organization is no more immune to the norms of society than anyone or anything else.  Question: Who was Bill Clinton?  Answer: He's the President that had an affair with Monica Lewinski and was Impeached from office, an act of Congress that hadn't happened in almost 150 years.  Now I said all of that so I could say this, it doesn't matter how many good things you do, the only thing people will remember is that one time you were downright nasty...if you go there.  I can honestly say, with all bias set aside...the actions of those who represent the Feminist movement in the United States have given me reason to believe that the movement isn't worth supporting.  I'm not saying that Feminism isn't worth supporting...I'm saying that I have been given enough good reasons to believe that it's not.  If you'd like to debate it, I'd be happy to oblige.

    Lastly, the pay gap has been busted for a long time, Men and Women alike are discouraged from doing things and encouraged to do other things...welcome to society.  Dress codes ARE unfair...oh well.  Sexist dress codes?  I might have to hear about this.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#1b75449f2596

    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @PotterWatch Economic equality is impossible. We've all seen what true equal pay does to countries. It's not pretty. When I say "we already have true equality", I mean that everyone gets paid the same wages for the same work, everyone has the  same opportunities, everyone is treated the same unless a reason to do otherwise has been given and everyone has the same rights. We are already seeing some equity in the world, specifically in the work force with women and men. Many companies give pregnant women maternal leave with pay so they can take care of their child. They're still making as much as men. In this scenario, the men's wages represent the tall boy, being pregnant is the height handicap that the other boys has and the leave with  pay is what makes both boys equal. I know this isn't true equity. That is still far out of reach. The biggest road block stems  from equity itself. One giant philosophical question. What is true equity? Where do we need it? And why? We can do as much research as we want and still never come close to figuring it out. At the end of the day, we're left with one burning question in our mind. Were we ever meant to know?
    spandam
  • @agsr
    You refer to simplicity as unfortunate.
    I would suggest that humans tend to cloud the reality of their existence with unnecessarily complex, conceptual thought.
    I would also suggest that the nature of the human condition, inevitably renders the sexes unequal.

    billpassedImbster

  • Haha, I'm not a feminist myself, but that's a whole different story, so the point is I agree with your last few points entirely.

    I never said that using the label had to do with "understanding" feminism, I just said that most people who do tend to defend themselves with saying that feminism is only its dictionary definition.

    Feminism doesn't need a clear meaning simply because it is so, so broad. It is really much more of an idea or a mindset, and those things are very hard to define. Given that, there are a lot of interpretations that almost always fall into the same few places: the definition, some specific points (like the examples that I mentioned), and most of all, the actions of the movement- depending on who you are, any of those things could define feminism. Personally I think it's the last two, since a movement is more than its definition, and actions speak louder than words.

    Ive never heard a statement for the theory before, but if what you said was the theory, that's not what I see feminism doing or accomplishing. I would rather look at feminism based off of what they actually do instead of what they want to do or what they think they're doing. Destructive means don't justify potentially positive ends, which I think might be what you were getting at in your third point.

    So those points I listed were examples of common feminist arguments I see, I don't really believe them myself.
    billpassedspandam
  • I agree with @melanielust . There could be different types of feminists and it doesn't have to be a movement.
    agsr
  • ImbsterImbster 95 Pts
    I am convinced now that its definition is enough but if we have the specific goals and interests from different types of feminists of what they want to achieve with their feminism, then could we actually solve what I believe misandrists have taken too far.

    We all know abuses are inevitable and that unfair things happen to women which causes them to have these mindsets but take a look at Emma Watson, a feminist, and her speech, she has points. My country has social and cultural expectations from women and the women usually just live up to that because their man is aggressive. 

    “If men don’t have to be aggressive in order to be accepted women won’t feel compelled to be submissive. If men don’t have to control, women won’t have to be controlled.”-Emma Watson. Don't even think this culture has died off or is just present in movie scenes where a man uses a fist or gun to control his woman to do things.

    @melanielust 
    My female classmates have higher science grades than me but that's not enough to prove the entire population does not condemn women taking a position in scientific fields. Do I support feminism now with these insights? No I am looking at both sides first then hear others take a side. I propose dividing feminism, if there could be different types of feminists, there can be different types of feminism.

    Don't women already wear jeans and sweatshirts, caps, watches, chains? I mean these feminists aren't all atheists but if they really want to against their religion to be politically correct take this verse: 
    "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this." (New International Version, Deuteronomy 22:5) from http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_dress.htm
    I wouldn't even include this in lectionaries so as not to trigger feminists.
     A woman's dress code is guided by the principles of modesty, appropriateness, gender distinction. Oh no. Everything was so positive until 'gender distinction'.

    Accept difference.
  • There's a difference between feminism and misandry, in my eyes a misandrist cannot possibly be a true feminist. If women are better than men, it's no different than saying men are better than women. Feminism is equality for all genders, that should be how everybody defines it, but not everyone seems to understand the difference between Misandry and Feminism. Some of my friends even call the misandrists, Feminazi's, which may be a bit going too far, but hey in some particular cases, they're not wrong.
    spandam
  • spandamspandam 43 Pts
    @eric_the_warlord , good point!

    Although, I must respectfully disagree. Feminism is the fight for female superiority. Misandrists, are a more conservative version of this.
    eric_the_warlord
  • @spandam ;
    If you look in any dictionary, it will tell you the general definition of misandry is a hatred of men.
    And feminism is simply the belief that women are and should be treated as potential intellectual equals and social equals to men.
    comey_testify
  • @eric_the_warlord , fascinating!
    Misandrists are a more extreme version of feminists while feminists do believe in equality not superiority.
    SilverishGoldNova
  • edited July 26
    Technically, modern feminism isn't misandry nor misogyny. They will happily run over both male and female victims to push their agenda 
     
  • Well I am an advocate of total equality. I do believe in the wage gap and think it should be fixed because I find it unfair. Otherwise I do think we as a society have achieved total equality. I just think every man or woman should be completely treated based on the situation and not their gender. Since I believe in this i'm technically a feminist.
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