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There can be good without evil

ImbsterImbster 77 Pts
edited June 19 in Religion
Wow what an irrefutable argument. I am placing this under religion.

This is a very common argument being associated to why God allows evil and not only good. Actually there are three moral categories a human may choose which is to be morally evil, morally good or morally neutral. Morally neutral acts are generally acts that do not devalue others nor can it be judged as an act for the greater good. For example, I choose eggs over waffles. I'd rather take my bike than a car considering I'm alone.

Choosing to read the Quran for now and the Bible later(Just kidding, no super religious person would consider that neutral)

My point here is there can be good without evil. You don't need to contrast good. Who cares about a perfect world where nobody sins, isn't that better than our current state? And most probably that perfect world would've achieved world peace and equity. But then how would you differentiate good from evil? If you say evil is necessary to contrast good, then what's necessary to contrast neutral things? Nothing. Since the two categories are out we are left with normal and neutral things and acts. Go argue you'll miss your mischief and lies then you're really just admitting you are addicted to doing evil acts despite being in a religion. It doesn't matter if only good exists and nobody knows or even has an inch of idea what evil is! God clearly missed this logic and was like most of you believing in 'balance'. I'm not gonna wait for a time 50% of the world is good 50% of the world is evil or even perhaps the percentages change at alternating times because no one, NO ONE can be morally upright for a long time. You can only believe that your sins are so small compared to the good you'r doing and reach an insane thought that your small sins are nothing. Bad words, insults, perversion backstabbing. Even if we take it back to the caveman, where they had no option to burn or club one another, they'd focus on only finding food and shelter for one another. Love would've been firmly, strongly and clearly established in earlier times for younger generations to be forced to learn.

Nobody will know what rape is but they'll be forced to know respect for women. Nobody will know how to murder but they'll focus on valuing life. They become HABITS. Something most religious people can't forge with goodness. Good acts will become HABITS and not some FORCED ACT so you don't go to hell. Since God knows everything, I don't even have to specify which evils to take away because God already knows all forms of evil and once taken out of existence only upright morality and neutrality will govern. True love will finally be everywhere.

Wait a minute...what if God already did take away everything he considered forms of evil?...And he left us with...morally upright options and choices meaning...we're the ones judging what is morally upright and evil...we're not going according to his will...
If that were true then still I stand judging God rather than God judging me.
joecavalrykmelkevolution17DavidDebates

Comments

  • joecavalryjoecavalry 145 Pts
    There can be good without evil, but it requires great self control.
    Imbster
  • EvidenceEvidence 64 Pts
    There can be good without evil, but it requires great self control.

    God doesn't necessarily 'allow' evil, He allows free will. He allows us to make that choice to either choose to do evil, or hate it!?

    1 Corinthians 6:12

    Also, let's consider what the Lord promised; that in Heaven there will be no more pain or suffering. How is that possible with Heaven full of individuals, from Powerful Angels, to all kinds of different creatures to us humans who will hopefully get there, .. all exercising our free will?


    I myself believe that this is why there was a war in Heaven, and Satan and his angels lost the battle and were cast down to earths, .. to what we call the "supernatural realm", so the ones in Heaven are now those that are 'one with God', .. or One Mind with Him, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are One".
    Those in Heaven don't want conflict, or have someone accuse others like Satan used to do, as he attained the title (amongst other tittles); "the Accuser"!
    So now Heaven is for only those with the same mind, same plan, same goal .. to live in perfect joy and peace for ever and ever! So every action is done with that same goal in mind.
    Like we do here in, .. oh let's just say "building a huge bridge". The contractor chooses people who will do nothing else but contribute to finishing that bridge according to plan.

    This is why we humans are here, to reveal our characters, what is it that we really want, .. the over all picture!?
    We know that if we are selfish, or greedy, or love to cause pain and suffering, or even if just enjoy watching those that suffer, this would not be good in the long-run, .. especially we're talking about receiving incorruptible bodies, and getting to live in eternity!
  • ImbsterImbster 77 Pts
    edited June 9
    @Evidence
    Allowing free will is still allowing evil. You've read Job probably and Satan has free will too to enter heaven. The best part here is, the argument that humans cause suffering to themselves is useless against the character Job. For he has done nothing major against the eyes of God and is God's favoured one at that time but God here allows Satan to do works but not kill Job. So because of Job's goodness and decisions to praise and be loyal to God almighty Satan is attracted to punish him? I should start committing sins often to keep Satan away.

    Whoah there on your presumptions of what heaven is. With your definition, nobody would be in heaven because that would mean those who don't sin but don't care about peace won't enter. Those who want to achieve peace and eternal joy but can't stop their evil habits are going to heaven? And actually my statements are already a yes based on catholic doctrine because since Jesus sacrificed himself for the world, salvation is already at hand. There is no counting your good deeds to bad deeds ratio but all you have to do is believe that Jesus is the saviour and died for you and you are guaranteed a spot in heaven. Ask any bishop and do your research. Good deeds aren't what's counting it's your faith meter.

    Is that the 'same mind' heaven should even be based on? Even if I go to hell, I want heaven only for perfectly moral people rather than rapists or murderers who have turned, repented and just always believed Jesus died on the cross for them.

    Actually you can't assume all humans even care about looking at themselves and saying they'll think it's not good in the long-run well why do you think we never had economic equity? Some humans don't care anymore. Some humans are mean girls. Some humans are just natural perverts.

    Even if the contractor chooses people that will contribute to finishing his bridge plan, one out of twelve will contribute to his death also.

     Thinking about getting a so called incorruptible body and living in eternity and call others greedy and selfish? I don't even think about that because I'm atheist. I think about what I can do to help others stick to the moral upright values their religion teaches them because as teens they find it hard to resist temptation. I explain religious texts to them in a theist perspective. Do all theists do that? Truly helping and contributing to their companions' lives or do they just pray for others? "I'll pray for you". "I'll help you". Synonymous? I think not.

    I achieve unselfish goodness because I do good for the people in my observable realm and not for an assumed to be existent, water vapour-dominant realm. I teach kids in my spare time as a religious assistant unwillingly cherrypicking Bible verses and stories that won't corrupt their innocent minds. Too bad other theistic preachers don't feel that cherrypicking feeling.
  • True, but it requires great control over your self constantly. There must be full balance within your mental state and in situations your physical body.
  • EvidenceEvidence 64 Pts
    Hello @Imbster, I see you are Filipino and not Catholic but atheist, from my perspective, how I understand religion, that's good. Using the power of the Bible to help others is good too, God bless you, the God of the Bible that is, not the Christian god/gods. (My wife is pure Filipino)
    You said: "Allowing free will is still allowing evil", .. so true. So I guess God wanted "Children" for himself, not robots, right?

    Yes, committing sin will get you in favor with Satan, he will leave you alone and only call on you when he needs you to do something for him. But if you worship God, in other words; if you do good because you love God, he will haunt you till the day you die.
    You see Satan doesn't care if you do good most of the time, as long as you're not doing it in Gods name, and to His glory! That's when he'll come after you like he did with Job.

    This is what I want to point out to those who belong to the Christian Religion, that the god they worship is NOT the Bible God, and the Jesus they worship is, .. well here, you look for yourself:


    or this;

    time 1:02

    Heaven is for those who love God, and think like Him, want eternal joy and peace in their lives for an eternity like Him through thick and thin, until death. Will we make mistakes? yes, That's why we have Jesus our Lord (not to be confused with the sun-god Lucifer's version of Jesus, or the three-in-one-Jesus) so in the times we failed, we can call upon Him and live, not die IN sin.

    Just because someone says: "Peace and security" doesn't mean that's what he's really up to. God is not blind, nor dumb. Remember that Satan can appear as an Angel of Light, all Illuminati-like.

    You said: "Is that the 'same mind' heaven should even be based on? Even if I go to hell, I want heaven only for perfectly moral people rather than rapists or murderers who have turned, repented and just always believed Jesus died on the cross for them" .. obviously you have never faced serious repentance. I pray you never will have to, but to understand what it takes to truly "repent" from being a rapist and a murderer, you will have to face some serious repentance. Repentance may be from something as simple as "gossip", but just observe how hard it is for a gossiper to repent, .. truly repent!? Only then can you appreciate the story like the "Prodigals Son".

    Yes, some humans are all that, some more and some less, but what God looks at is repentance, what trials and temptations one fights through to achieve it. You don't actually believe that God will allow a rapist or a murderer into Heaven just because they claim a religion version of Jesus do you?
    If that was so, there are a lot of Jesus's in Mexico who we could call upon, and for a small fee will get us in Heaven (like any Catholic Priest). Jesus on the other hand knows who has truly repented, like one that just went through fire, and there is no other way into Heaven except through Christ.

    You said: "Even if the contractor chooses people that will contribute to finishing his bridge plan, one out of twelve will contribute to his death also." 
    What I said was that God want's only those who are of One Mind, One purpose with Him into Heaven. Judas acted the part, but had very different plans. I mean that's what I want, to be one in mind with God because just by looking at His Creation I can tell He got everything figured out perfectly. It's all good, only what we-man did is bad. Free will, free choice and I choose God through His Son Jesus Christ.
    But we see that the Devil and his angels, chose Lucifer's ideas over Gods plan, so they no longer have any place in Heaven.

    You said: "Thinking about getting a so called incorruptible body and living in eternity and call others greedy and selfish?"
    Lol, So working hard, always loving and helping my neighbor and those in need and still wishing one day to be able to buy a nice house, and a nice car for my wife and my children is selfish of me?
    Hey, the incorruptible body, the mansion in Heaven and an eternal life of joy and happiness was not my idea OK!? I'd take a nice little bamboo house eating herbs and Mangoes as long as I could live in peace without the harassment from evil people, and the constant pain. So Jesus has different plans for me, hey, who am I to argue with Him?

    You said: "I achieve unselfish goodness because I do good for the people in my observable realm and not for an assumed to be existent, water vapour-dominant realm. I teach kids in my spare time as a religious assistant unwillingly cherrypicking Bible verses and stories that won't corrupt their innocent minds. Too bad other theistic preachers don't feel that cherrypicking feeling."

    Well, you sound like an angel, always doing good to those in need, so obviously you don't need saving, nor do you need Jesus. See, even Jesus said that "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners for repentance."  There are about 2.2 billion of you, the others call themselves Christ-like, or Christian, and no matter what they do, they justify it through their religious doctrines. They are not bad people, only they follow either a wide road, and others carve a narrower road other than what Jesus made. So I can only wish you good luck with that because only one road, one way leads to Heaven. I don't know if I could trust the one I make for myself?? But hey, you never know, .. even Billy Graham says there are many roads leading to God!?


  • A perfect world means no arguments, no problems, no sins. Do you like this website, do you like to argue about things? If we lived in a perfect world, there would be no life lessons to learn, we wouldn't have to work hard to get what we wanted. Sometimes that's kind of important. It sucks but it teaches us new things. It teaches us how to get through life. There is no good without evil. There can be more good than evil. There can be more evil than good. It depends on where you live. It depends on how you look at life. Some people either see the good or evil. I see both. I'll tell you what I can't see: Good without evil and vice versa.
    PowerPikachu21
  • ImbsterImbster 77 Pts
    Well then let us analyse thy view a bit
    @eric_the_warlord
    Perfection is not the absence of evil neither moral perfection. I do not aim to generate or illustrate a perfect world but if in harsh and extreme demonstrations, a world where people are mindless having no knowledge of evil and no existence of evil upon them. 

    Let's say we have two coffee shops A and B
    Now in coffeeshop A the employees can only choose to put between three things
    coffee
    rat poison
    creamer

    Coffee of course is the neutral and base here because why have rat poison or creamer only? So they have free will to place rat poison for some reason by the employer.

    Now in coffeeshop B there's only coffee and creamer
    You can either choose coffee or coffee with creamer

    The employer has made sure that rat poison will never reach them and never let them know of such and use the alternative of just cleaning the whole coffeeshop regularly.

    The main points here are nothing immoral can happen without something amoral before that action. Holding a gun is not necessarily evil already because there's the action of putting it away or throwing it after holding or you could have the other action which is shooting someone. Same with holding a knife also, cook dinner for everyone or chop everyone.

    Well there should be a third view in life and that's neutral because you can't label waffles good or eggs evil in choosing your breakfast and perhaps adjust to seeing all.

    We would still have a choice I mean two choices of neutral things to do or good things to do. Walking or help someone cross the street. Is it not better we are not able to know of or even commit evil acts?
    I mean it is also possible for only neutral things and evil things to exist without good. A world with insult-filled offensive and racist conversations or peaceful dialogue?
  • ImbsterImbster 77 Pts
    @Evidence

    So you don't accept the trinity or three-in-one Jesus?
  • @Imbster  God may have made evil, but not with the intent of it being the status quo.  

    In Genesis 1, after He creates each part of the earth He says 'And it was good'.  This is not just a painter saying 'this painting is good', but God literally meant creation was good and evil was non-existent.  This is explored later in Genesis 3 as Adam and Eve eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  

    Now why did God place that tree there?  To allow the freedom of choice.  That is what you get with children.  Do you want to dictate your child's life day in and day out, until they are old enough to leave?  No, you let them choose as they get older.  You allow them freedom with responsibility.  Controlling them 24/7 would take away choice and free will.  That is how God sees it.  He didn't necessarily create evil, but allowed a choice to do good or not to do good.  

    It's like dirt.  You dig a hole.  Is that hole a thing?  No, but it cannot exist without the dirt.  Sin is not a thing and is not physical like a hole.  With good being the dirt, you take that away and evil doesn't exist.  Now do keep in mind God cannot do evil, though He may have created it.  Creating and doing evil are two completely different things.  He did command His people to commit genocide, but this is a world 3500 years ago where war was necessary.  The Bible must be kept in historical context as any other old writing.  
  • ImbsterImbster 77 Pts
    edited June 23
    @SuperSith89
    We're talking about a three omniential God here and not a father who is capable of much and is supposedly beyond anybody's logic. God is able to take away evil and let dirt be without having to control anyone. It is not control nor violating free will when he took things or people in the old testament. Is imposing religion taking away free will? No right. Is stealing violating free will? No it's even aligned with free will. Then I may steal evil out of the world but still give two choices to wander around. Since God knows all forms of evils I have no need to specify which he must take away. A choice to do good or not to do good? Amoral things aren't good nor evil in its purest nature. I not only allow people with responsibility without evil but I am leading them to always uphold their responsibility or call it off for a while it's not evil it's amoral.

    Explore every amoral act a person is capable of doing first with my given illustrations, demonstrations and arguments of such world and you'll see choice doesn't disappear neither free will. God still gives them free will to either eat bread or fish or both.

    There's still a choice, you may walk but you cannot or do not even know how to step on someone. You may talk but you cannot or do not even know how to offend nor insult someone.

     Well with the same illustration the dirt can exist without the hole.
  • EvidenceEvidence 64 Pts
    Imbster said:
    @Evidence

    So you don't accept the trinity or three-in-one Jesus?

    Of course not, unless someone can show me why there was even a need to create this man-made doctrine, .. right?

    Where is the Bible lacking in explaining who God, who His Son Word, and who the Holy Spirit is? The information is clear on who God is.
    I asked Mormons a similar question: "Why was there a need to create another testament of Jesus Christ? What information can the Book of Mormo reveal that's missing in the Bible? Besides, who the hell is Mormo anyways?"

    They couldn't answer.

    The Trinity Doctrine is how the Catholic created Christian Religion turned our Infinite and Eternal Spirit-God who's throne is in Heaven, into plural, three deified created beings, or demigods who reside for the time being in earths supernatural realm, from where they divine their lies through divination to mediums, or Christian Diviners.
    It is no longer a secret who these three-gods are:

    1. Who in the Christian Religion is referred to as "God on earth", or "The Holiest of Fathers"? The Pope, who is the trinities "Father-god"

    2. Sun-god, which is no secret that the Catholic Church worships the sun


    3. Spirit-god
    Who do Catholics pray to? To the spirit of the goddess Mary,


    but of course the Protestant denominations and non-denominational denominations will make other excuses and apologetics to justify their worship of these pagan gods, some have better sheepskins/doctrine than others.

    There is one plural being mentioned in the Bible, a single demon who is many, and Jesus asked his name, he said it was Legion
    Then He asked him, “What is your name?” And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many.”

    God is One, the Only Possible Infinite and Eternal Creator, who beget/created a Son he properly named "Word"

    The Holy Spirit is also an individual like other Angels are, who comes to us and teaches us about reality and reveals to us Gods Word.

    I mean, .. you don't believe in the trinity-gods do you?
  • EvidenceEvidence 64 Pts
    @Imbster  God may have made evil, but not with the intent of it being the status quo.  

    In Genesis 1, after He creates each part of the earth He says 'And it was good'.  This is not just a painter saying 'this painting is good', but God literally meant creation was good and evil was non-existent.  This is explored later in Genesis 3 as Adam and Eve eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  

    Now why did God place that tree there?  To allow the freedom of choice.  That is what you get with children.  Do you want to dictate your child's life day in and day out, until they are old enough to leave?  No, you let them choose as they get older.  You allow them freedom with responsibility.  Controlling them 24/7 would take away choice and free will.  That is how God sees it.  He didn't necessarily create evil, but allowed a choice to do good or not to do good.  

    It's like dirt.  You dig a hole.  Is that hole a thing?  No, but it cannot exist without the dirt.  Sin is not a thing and is not physical like a hole.  With good being the dirt, you take that away and evil doesn't exist.  Now do keep in mind God cannot do evil, though He may have created it.  Creating and doing evil are two completely different things.  He did command His people to commit genocide, but this is a world 3500 years ago where war was necessary.  The Bible must be kept in historical context as any other old writing.  

    I don't think God creating evil means He created bad things to happen to His creation, or make others do bad things. What I believe it means is like the flood, .. God caused a terrible flood that killed all life except 8 humans and the animals in the boat, so God did a terrible evil which He himself repented of. Not because He was in the wrong, but because it tore Him up to have had to do such terrible evil. God is love, so I guess it must have been really hard on Him.

    He is sending His Son to do even worse evil than that, He will destroy both our heaven and the earth and all things in them with an unquenchable fire, can't think of any greater evil befalling this here creation than that! Hell is another evil God created for those who refuse to live with Him in joy and peace. So yes, God creates good and evil, He does all those things out of love.

  • @Evidence  Your views on the trinity are way too radical.  The holy spirit isn't just some angel that comes down to reveal God's word.  Look at the disciples.  They were cowards before Jesus left Earth.  They were terrified by the storm and yet they didn't the power of Jesus because of the Holy Spirit.  Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.".  The disciples were given this power after Jesus left and look at what they did immediately.  Read Acts 2 for this.  Then they went on with a burning fire in them and brought Christianity to this point today.  There is also much to prove that the trinity of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one.  Verses where Jesus says that God is greater than Himself were when He was on earth as a human.  He had the power, but not the knowledge.  In heaven, He is one with God again.  The Holy Spirit is the power of God and is God's power.  

    Now I do agree about your point on evil.  God created it, but does not use it.  Everything He does is justified.  
  • ImbsterImbster 77 Pts
    @SuperSith89
    Look the official doctrine of the trinity is like a spoon. A spoon can pick up liquid viand or even rice but only one spoon is doing it. That's the official church doctrine that there is one God but three works, the father the son and the holy spirit. Confusing but with such doctrine I can assume God is Jesus, Jesus is God. The holy spirit too.
  • EvidenceEvidence 64 Pts
    @Evidence  Your views on the trinity are way too radical.  The holy spirit isn't just some angel that comes down to reveal God's word.  Look at the disciples.  They were cowards before Jesus left Earth.  They were terrified by the storm and yet they didn't the power of Jesus because of the Holy Spirit.  Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.".  The disciples were given this power after Jesus left and look at what they did immediately.  Read Acts 2 for this.  Then they went on with a burning fire in them and brought Christianity to this point today.  There is also much to prove that the trinity of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one.  Verses where Jesus says that God is greater than Himself were when He was on earth as a human.  He had the power, but not the knowledge.  In heaven, He is one with God again.  The Holy Spirit is the power of God and is God's power.  

    Now I do agree about your point on evil.  God created it, but does not use it.  Everything He does is justified.  
    @SuperSith89 "Your views on the trinity are way too radical."

    Is there another way to describe a man made doctrine that turns our Holy God into the devil, .. some divine (demon) that lives in the supernatural realm?


    @SuperSith89 : "The holy spirit isn't just some angel that comes down to reveal God's word"
    Correct, I agree that the Holy Spirit is not just some Angel, but the Power of God who can come into many at once.

    The voice from Heaven was from God who choses whatever of His creation to talk through to us by. The dove like Spirit was the Holy Spirit as it says,

    But fine, so you have in the Trinity:

    Father-god
    Son-god and
    Spirit-god,
    three individuals who are one, all God, correct?

     "Father-God" of the Trinity is God, right? Who is He the Father of?

    Mathew 1:20 But while he (Joseph) thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

    So as we read here, it's the Holy Spirit that fathered Jesus, then again, .. who is the trinity "Father-god" the father of?

    You said: "Verses where Jesus says that God is greater than Himself were when He was on earth as a human"

    What does that mean, .. that God can be less than God depending on the form He takes to speak to us through?? Wait, .. so you believe God died on the cross?? No wonder Satan keeps God nailed to the cross on all them paintings and idols as a "trophy", he really thinks he killed God!?
    Also, if "God" was on earth as a human, where was Father-god? What, arguing with spirit-god for going into Mary and having the child that He was supposed to father??
    Don't you see just ho ridiculous this evil doctrine is?


    Let's move on, so in the Trinity you have three individuals who make up God, so who is this then?

    And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him (Moses) in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
    So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

    And he said, “Here I am.”

    Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

    I mean right there it says that the Fiery Angel was God! Why is this "fourth" personage of God not included in the Trinity-gods?

    I can point out a lot more "personages" of God throughout the Bible, but I believe this will do for now my friend.

    For the rest reading this, I said it and I'll say it again, no Religion, or a member of a religion will, or even can ever accept God as He really is, .. as He is defined in the Bible. A J.W. will leave his/her religion and the god named Jehovah Witness and go over and accept the Baptist Trinity gods, and visa versa, but to accept Bible God, the One and Only possible one, .. never. Or over all the years I have been out there trying to wake people up, not one person that belonged to any religion, especially a Christian Religion has. Not that I know of?


    I am really hoping and praying my friend Earfisflat would, .. but then, why should he? Who is Evidence, or brother Supersith89, or Erfisflat, or cannabis, or therep, right? We don't even know, or care to know each other, which it the whole reason God created us, the very meaning of Church and brotherhood. Not that if we used our real names would make any difference, if that's as far as it would go, right?

  • @Evidence  "Is there another way to describe a man made doctrine that turns our Holy God into the devil, .. some divine (demon) that lives in the supernatural realm?"

    Are we talking about the same trinity?  Where the heck did you get that idea???

    " "Father-God" of the Trinity is God, right? Who is He the Father of?"

    Jesus and primarily us.  Everyone refers to God as our father.  Abba God.  Father God.  He is also the father of Jesus, yet they are the same still.  I find it hard to visualize, but @Imbster made a good example.  


    "What does that mean, .. that God can be less than God depending on the form He takes to speak to us through?? Wait, .. so you believe God died on the cross?? No wonder Satan keeps God nailed to the cross on all them paintings and idols as a "trophy", he really thinks he killed God!?"

    Yes he did think he had killed God.  He rejoiced in his supposed victory.  But Jesus rose again after three days.  Now Jesus came and stripped Himself of His three omnis to be like us, so yes God became less powerful as man, so that way He could face temptation and pain for our sins.

    "Also, if "God" was on earth as a human, where was Father-god? What, arguing with spirit-god for going into Mary and having the child that He was supposed to father??
    Don't you see just ho ridiculous this evil doctrine is?"    

    Father God was in Heaven while Son God was on Earth paying for our sins.  Read John 1 for further clarification on this.  "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  "14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."  This proves Jesus is God and then came to Earth.  Also, how hard is it to imagine God being in many places due to omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience?  

    "Let's move on, so in the Trinity you have three individuals who make up God, so who is this then?"

    That was God or even the Holy Spirit taking over the bush.  Not hard to answer.  There are three and one of them was in that bush.  Does it matter?  No, Moses became convinced no matter who was in the bush.  It was talking and burning anyways....

    "For the rest reading this, I said it and I'll say it again, no Religion, or a member of a religion will, or even can ever accept God as He really is, .. as He is defined in the Bible. A J.W. will leave his/her religion and the god named Jehovah Witness and go over and accept the Baptist Trinity gods, and visa versa, but to accept Bible God, the One and Only possible one, .. never. Or over all the years I have been out there trying to wake people up, not one person that belonged to any religion, especially a Christian Religion has. Not that I know of?"

    Many Christians do accept God as He truly is.  I certainly do, and God is a trinity and still one.  I am not a J.W and do not agree with their beliefs.  I am a protestant and believe in God as a trinity with Him being the father, the son, and the holy spirit.  Thank you for your time.  


  • @Imbster  I didn't see this before since Evidence stepped in, but could you explain more?  It seems like your are arguing my point that God making free will was not evil, but can be made into evil when someone chooses not to do good.  
  • ImbsterImbster 77 Pts
    @SuperSith89

    I'm gonna have to stop you with an assumption of yours my friend especially that you are heading into theology. I'm no theologian but as a religious assistant I make sure none of what I teach to children is half atheist or half my beliefs but fully from church doctrine, dogma and sites with the most "bible scholars said".

    Yes he did think he had killed God.  He rejoiced in his supposed victory.  But Jesus rose again after three days.  Now Jesus came and stripped Himself of His three omnis to be like us, so yes God became less powerful as man, so that way He could face temptation and pain for our sins.

    A few commentaries and remarks have stated that Satan actually tried to stop Jesus' death because with his current power and knowledge too, he knew already about the death and resurrection it was even portrayed in The Gospel of John(movie) that Satan screamed in disappointment after Jesus died on the cross signalling he needed to stop the success of salvation.

    Now it is propagandised in most christian and catholic religious classes that Jesus despite being man was still 100% God 100% Man. And if the trinity were true then the same can be said for all if one of the trinity ever desired to form themself into a man.

    http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-can-jesus-be-god-and-man

    but yes I must say @Evidence with the bulk of your revolutionary claims maybe you could simplify or summarise your realisations first and then project it in a larger scale with all the specific details so that I may too understand because the gist that I've understood so far is that no one has woken up to the philosophical truth about God and that we are swimming in a false pool of knowledge about God and that you might have realised or obtained such knowledges about God that are perfect.
  • @Imbster  Good point I failed to realize about satan trying to stop it since he knew what would happen.  

    Now Jesus was still God when He was man, but He clearly did not have the same power as He would have outside of man.  He did give up the attributes of the three omnis and took on the burden of being human.  He voluntarily limited Himself is what I was going for, but didn't point out.  He also veiled Himself from the glory of God.  "I have glorified you on the earth. I have finished the work which you have given me to do. And now, O Father, glorify me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was (John 17:4,5)"

    I did make a few mistakes of course, but Evidence has some very different views and he makes me uneasy with how his claims are.  


  • VaulkVaulk 179 Pts
    Contrast is vastly more important than the OP has suggested.  Example:

    Let us begin with the word "Good".  Now for the sake of the example, you are an ignorant human being who doesn't know what "Good" means and I am the instructor who will be making an attempt at explaining the meaning of the word.  After all, the meaning of a word is fundamental to understanding how to use it.  So I begin by telling you that "Good" is an adjective used to describe something that can be many things.  Of these things that "Good" can be used to describe I will include Peace, Selflessness, Honor and I would continue down the line listing off all the "Good" virtues I can think of. 

    At some point, as the person learning the meaning, it will become important to you to be able to ask questions to further your understanding, questions such as "What about this...is this good"?  Or "How about that, is that good"?  By asking these questions you would be attempting to narrow the meaning down in order to better understand it and it would be just as important for me to answer your questions effectively as it was to explain what "Good" was to begin with.  This is called "Contrasting" and it is a critical part to understanding the meaning of words.  If I only ever answered "Yes" to your questions, then in your eyes everything would be good and you would essentially learn nothing about the word "Good".  At some point I would have to answer "No, that is not good", or more specifically "No, that is Evil". 

    Now there are indeed circumstances where morality does not play a part, "Choosing eggs over waffles" has nothing to do with morality.  In order to better understand this, I would present to you this question:

    If you are in a cold room (Lets say it's about 50 degrees Fahrenheit) and you tell your friend next to you that you feel hot, are you right or wrong?  The answer is that you are in fact neither right nor wrong because your feelings are never right nor wrong they simply are.  Likewise the choice between eggs and waffles is neither good nor evil it simply is a choice of preference.

    To summarize, you cannot have Good without Evil because without one you would not be able to contrast the other, without contrast we would not understand the current meaning of Good or Evil. 
    Evidence
  • ImbsterImbster 77 Pts
    @Vaulk

    What do you exactly want to point out if we don't understand any meaning of good and evil? I have already stated there is no need to contrast both nor know evil if there is something to support goodness which is neutrality. Think of it this way, you show a baby that you are clapping your hands and the baby may or may not clap. Now does the baby understand the webster definition of clapping? Humans have done choices without even understanding or knowing such. I stand to argue that God completely understands what is good and evil and I have no need to specify what evils he could've taken away. If criminals are needed to contrast the police should that mean we should tolerate the upbringing of humans with high potential to criminals? Should God tolerate that or make free will his highest priority?

    How do you know if God took away evil the world would collapse? Good will also go away? Do you not place faith in God's omnipotence? He is able to bend the rules of nature and if according to you nature demands good to contrast evil then if God wills it nature be punished for such demand. Do we not already achieve neutrality and goodness in the church? Does anything evil then happen in the smallest scale of a religious place or is there just tidying up the holy place and worshipping God in that holy place? Would you then say you doubt that evil doesn't happen in a church?
  • Imbster said:
    Wow what an irrefutable argument. I am placing this under religion.

    This is a very common argument being associated to why God allows evil and not only good. Actually there are three moral categories a human may choose which is to be morally evil, morally good or morally neutral. Morally neutral acts are generally acts that do not devalue others nor can it be judged as an act for the greater good. For example, I choose eggs over waffles. I'd rather take my bike than a car considering I'm alone.

    Choosing to read the Quran for now and the Bible later(Just kidding, no super religious person would consider that neutral)

    My point here is there can be good without evil. You don't need to contrast good. Who cares about a perfect world where nobody sins, isn't that better than our current state? And most probably that perfect world would've achieved world peace and equity. But then how would you differentiate good from evil? If you say evil is necessary to contrast good, then what's necessary to contrast neutral things? Nothing. Since the two categories are out we are left with normal and neutral things and acts. Go argue you'll miss your mischief and lies then you're really just admitting you are addicted to doing evil acts despite being in a religion. It doesn't matter if only good exists and nobody knows or even has an inch of idea what evil is! God clearly missed this logic and was like most of you believing in 'balance'. I'm not gonna wait for a time 50% of the world is good 50% of the world is evil or even perhaps the percentages change at alternating times because no one, NO ONE can be morally upright for a long time. You can only believe that your sins are so small compared to the good you'r doing and reach an insane thought that your small sins are nothing. Bad words, insults, perversion backstabbing. Even if we take it back to the caveman, where they had no option to burn or club one another, they'd focus on only finding food and shelter for one another. Love would've been firmly, strongly and clearly established in earlier times for younger generations to be forced to learn.

    Nobody will know what rape is but they'll be forced to know respect for women. Nobody will know how to murder but they'll focus on valuing life. They become HABITS. Something most religious people can't forge with goodness. Good acts will become HABITS and not some FORCED ACT so you don't go to hell. Since God knows everything, I don't even have to specify which evils to take away because God already knows all forms of evil and once taken out of existence only upright morality and neutrality will govern. True love will finally be everywhere.

    Wait a minute...what if God already did take away everything he considered forms of evil?...And he left us with...morally upright options and choices meaning...we're the ones judging what is morally upright and evil...we're not going according to his will...
    If that were true then still I stand judging God rather than God judging me.
    Is it possible that evil is merely lack of good, and does not exist as itself at all? 

    And what if evil is a good thing to have? Hear me out, don't we need darkness to see what is light? And do we not need silence to appreciate music? In the same way, does the lack of good (evil) draw attention to good when we do see it? Crime, suffering, and pain can illuminate good. When a hurricane hits, the humanitarian workers are only more appreciated than ever. To truly receive fruit, you must be willing to prune the tree, and to raise good sons and daughters, you must be willing to discipline them.

    Kinda just throwing this out there.
    Imbster
  • EvidenceEvidence 64 Pts
    @Evidence  "Is there another way to describe a man made doctrine that turns our Holy God into the devil, .. some divine (demon) that lives in the supernatural realm?"

    Are we talking about the same trinity?  Where the heck did you get that idea???

    " "Father-God" of the Trinity is God, right? Who is He the Father of?"

    Jesus and primarily us.  Everyone refers to God as our father.  Abba God.  Father God.  He is also the father of Jesus, yet they are the same still.  I find it hard to visualize, but @Imbster made a good example.  

    <snip> 


    Are we talking about the same trinity?  Where the heck did you get that idea???

    Pagans worshipped deities, Pharaohs were all divine, or "gods on earth", you will never find any accurate Bible translation referring to our Infinite Creator as "divine". This was later added to different translations.
    God is One, and He is Holy, and Spirit who resides in Heaven, He is not a deified man/person who's been elevated to godhood .. He's not a deity.
    __________________
    " "Father-God" of the Trinity is God, right? Who is He the Father of?"

    @Supersith89 Jesus and primarily us.  Everyone refers to God as our father.  Abba God.  Father God.  He is also the father of Jesus, yet they are the same still.  I find it hard to visualize, but @Imbster made a good example.

    Yes my friend, that is true that God is our Father, but neither Jesus, nor any of us can claim to be God, which this unBiblical Religious Doctrine suggests, for if Jesus is both the Son and the Father, than that must go for us too, which is a demonic Catholic popular New-age concept if you think about it, which is why the Pope is referred to as: "The Holiest of Fathers, .. or Holy Father" which the Bible warns us from doing that!

    Besides, throughout the O.T. it is clear that God will send His Son as Messiah through whom He will save the world, nowhere does it ever mention that "God will come and die for us". This is just 'assumed', since we have been thoroughly brainwashed by this Christian Religion. Same like what they did putting the globe in all the classrooms, everyone 'assumes' the earth is a globe.

    Also, I asked, since according to the Bible, the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she was found with child" .. so wouldn't that suggest that the 'Holy Spirit is the father of Jesus?' I never read where Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as Father, yet it's right there in all the Gospels!? Can you find me just ONE place where the Holy Spirit is referred to as Father, or father-god?

    _________________
    @Supersith89 Yes he did think he had killed God.  He rejoiced in his supposed victory.  But Jesus rose again after three days.  Now Jesus came and stripped Himself of His three omnis to be like us, so yes God became less powerful as man, so that way He could face temptation and pain for our sins.

    Can you please show me where the Bible even hints of God dying, or Satan having killed God, .. or "God having died for our sins?", .. or that "Gods death brought us life", .. or "the death of God brought salvation to mankind", .. or ANYTHING even close to that, .. you see what I mean? But I can show you countless references like John 3:16 where God "sent" His only begotten Son, .. not "sent himself".
    Also, .. the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen is a parable of Jesus found in Matthew, Matthew 21:33–46, Mark Mark 12:1–12, and Luke Luke 20:9–19, and in the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas, how could anyone mistaken that to mean "Finally the Father sent himself, surely they will respect myself, .. but they killed him/me."  etc. ?
    God sent His Son, not Himself. God is God, the Son is the Son, and Gods Holy Spirit is exactly who the NT says He is, .. the Comforter, Teacher whose power can come on one, or as many as desire to Have him.

    __________________
    @Supersith89 Father God was in Heaven while Son God was on Earth paying for our sins.  Read John 1 for further clarification on this.  "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  "14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."  This proves Jesus is God and then came to Earth.  Also, how hard is it to imagine God being in many places due to omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience?

    Again, so why is the "Fiery Angel" not listed amongst the Trinity-gods?
    Jesus NEVER claimed He was God, but the Fiery Angel specifically said that he was God talking, and even Moses said "I was afraid to look upon God"! So the fiery Angel should replace Jesus as God in this trinity of gods, at least that part would be Biblical, only in the wrong context.

    Son-god was on earth?? Can you show me any reference to Jesus as "son-god"?
    Again, that is assumed, just as when we talk about God, people right away think of "religion", as if God our Infinite Creator can only exists in 'religion'!? Yet the opposite is true, you will NEVER find our Infinite and Eternal Creator "I Am" in any religion, .. never. Religions only offer made up, created, carved or deified men like Pharaohs and popes as gods.

    Same with the BB-Evolution sci-fi stories, .. soon as someone mentions "Big Bang, or Evolution", people automatically assume "science". But as we learn from our friend @Erfisflat, that not just these falsely labeled theories, but the entire snake tongued NASA and 666CERN is built on science fiction, another words, "fairytales" passed off as real science.

    Look at how this evil-doctrine influenced the interpretation of John 1, which is the best, and clearest explanation of who God, .. who the Son and what 'creation itself' is!?

    John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

    This is talking about the "Word", who we know is Gods Son, right? Also, neither Infinite, nor Eternal (who God is) has a beginning, so this is definitely talking about Gods Son Word, who was with God, and before that "was God", .. just as in Adams creation (which God did in His and His Sons own image Genesis 1:26) Eve was in the beginning of her creation; with Adam, .. and before that she was Adam (or Adams rib), .. see the "image" here?

    verse 3; "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." God created all things through God? This doctrine mocks the whole concept.

    Now let's read it with the demonic trinity-making Jesus God-interpretation:

    - 1. In the beginning was the God, and the God was with God, and the God was God.
    2. God was in the beginning with God.
    3. All things were made through God, and without God nothing was made that was made.

    - totally senseless and ridiculous, why would God, who is not a god of confusion, say this? But Lucifer IS the god of this world, a liar, an accuser, a deceiver, another words, 'a god of confusion'.

    Now look at verse 14, .. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
    Who became flesh? Was it ".. and God became flesh and dwelt among us?  ??
    Never, .. that is all assumed because of our 1,700 years of Religious-indoctrination. The Romans turned our Bible God one or more of their own gods, the cross of Christ their sword, turned the word love into war, the statement: "love one another" to "kill one another", where Christians are blessed and sent off by the Priests and the Popes to kill, maim and conquer other Christians.

    ____________________
    @Supersith89 That was God or even the Holy Spirit taking over the bush.  Not hard to answer.  There are three and one of them was in that bush.  Does it matter?  No, Moses became convinced no matter who was in the bush.  It was talking and burning anyways....

    God, Holy Spirit, .. which one? What about the Son, why couldn't it been the Son Word talking to Moses, are they not all gods? It says clearly in both the OT and the NT that it was the Fiery Angel, or the Angel of Fire, and NOT any of the gods mentioned in the trinity. They should have added all the other manifestations/personages of God also:

    Father-god
    Son (sun)-god
    Spirit-god
    Fiery angel-god
    God-talking to Hagar in the desert-god
    Jacob wrestling with a man-God-god

    _______________________
    @Supersith89 Many Christians do accept God as He truly is.  I certainly do, and God is a trinity and still one.  I am not a J.W and do not agree with their beliefs.  I am a protestant and believe in God as a trinity with Him being the father, the son, and the holy spirit.  Thank you for your time.

    Not many, but ALL members of the Christian Religion, starting with the creators of this Religion the Catholics, .. to the tens of thousands of denominations and non-denomination denominations believe in one, or another form of created gods.

    Those that don't want to accept the trinity, created a different god, like the god named 'Jehovah Witness', or the particular day-god like Sabbath-god, and when I went to visit them at their church, for the 7th D.A. it was: "Happy Sabbath" coming out of their mouth all day, and for the J.W's, it was the word "Jehovah" ad nauseam, so either its a heavenly object like a star, or some demonic spirit living in the supernatural realm that they become diviners for, or some deified man, or woman to godhood, to days, or the moon or the sun, .. but no religion will accept the God of Abraham, Isaak and Jacob, the One and Only Possible Infinite and Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am" described in, and who spoke to His Prophets/Apostles in the Bible, .. none.

    And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve,
    whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River,
    or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
    But as for me and my house,
    we will serve the Lord.”

    The One and Only Possible Infinite and Eternal conscious Mind/Spirit "I Am" !!
    Erfisflat
  • SylynnSylynn 66 Pts
    Here's an issue I have with this concept of, "Evil exists because God gave us free will." 

    Can evil exist in heaven? I would venture a guess that the answer is, no, evil can't exist in heaven. If that's true, there must also not be free will in heaven (which I must point out, is no heaven to me). Why would anyone want to go somewhere in which there is no free will?
  • ImbsterImbster 77 Pts
    @DavidDebates
    I hear thy philosophical points. Might have to rebut crime and suffering can illuminate good. We have to take notice that in 9 boxes we have never seen they may have the same items they may be completely different but we know these things because we've seen boxes already.

    There are many cases that have been outruled because of lack of evidence now the good that should be illuminated is justice but it doesn't happen for some people. When you're raped you truly need hard evidence and not just the statement you were raped cause you might have a very good liar against you. Some people get their justice, some people get saved and stay a virgin some...well.

    Suffering is very vast but yes when we suffer, we learn more than when we were merry drinking. Though constant suffering may close the mind to the illumination of good.
  • ImbsterImbster 77 Pts
    @Sylynn
    Hello there fellow thinker

    Well we can use God's Omni Argument to say that he has power to divide nature's laws between the two realms, heaven and earth. I'm atheist btw.

    Also might I suggest take and research the metaphorical meaning of heaven and hell where basically heaven is a state of complete existence after death because of your achievements and goodness that people will always remember you. And hell it's like constantly spitting on your grave where you have this eternal torture of being insulted because of all the bad you did.
  • ImbsterImbster 77 Pts
    edited July 8
    @Sylynn
    Based on the Book of Job it's much simpler to say "Evil exists because God permits it". So most theists have told me that the lesson to be learned here in the book of Job is that Satan, Lucy, Lucifer can't do anything without the permission of God. So I don't really know where that conclusion came up. Evil already existed before Adam and Eve ate the fruit accordingly to the Bible. It's safer to say we have free will to do evil.
  • SylynnSylynn 66 Pts
    Job is a sick and twisted story about God and Satan enjoying a bit of gambling at Job's expense. The idea Satan can't do anything without God's permission seems a bit absurd. The story goes he was an angel but rebelled against God. Is it really a rebellion if you have permission?
    Imbster
  • ImbsterImbster 77 Pts
    edited July 8
    @Sylynn
    He may not have asked permission at first to rebel against God and cause a war but then after attaining much power realising he's not as powerful as God, perhaps he struck a deal with the true devil to work for Him in exchange for souls according to insane folklore. With that, God gets good people, Lucy tempts people and God watches intensely if Lucy will be successful. He was probably getting more souls so he asked Jesus to come down and save the world which is why in the movie the Gospel of John, Hell was kinda empty. But this all just based on Catholic beliefs.

    The bigger question here is what about other religions if you've followed my previous arguments. It seems that according to Catholic and Christian doctrine we have exclusivism. One unity of people believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ also believing he is the messiah are the only unity of people to enter heaven. What do you suggest?

    https://www.gotquestions.org/inclusivism-exclusivism.html

    Also there a few bible verses pointing out rapists can enter heaven with extreme repentance and exclusivism.

    Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washedyou were sanctifiedyou were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, NIV)
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