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Please explain kneeling to the flag during NFL games.

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  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    Even if those many others are blindly following a pispoor and slanderous leader.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -   edited October 2017

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    When you find yourself fighting against the world, it's usually because you're on the wrong side.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    This debate continues to circle around to the idea that being disgusted with the NFL protesters is somehow a violation of their right to protest.  It's. Not.  

    If John protests the National Anthem and Harry protests John's protest...who has more of a legal right to their protest?  The answer is "Neither".  They BOTH have the EQUAL right to protest.

    Everyone can acknowledge that the NFL protesters have not had ANY of their rights violated and they're simply suffering from public backlash as a result of several issues when it comes to bringing political movements into Football games.  So people are calling you nasty names for protesting...so what?  Get over it or fold and go down as the guys that couldn't hold up the protest against public opinion.  The debate about "Rights" needs to end here, this isn't about rights and it never was.
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk
    Agreed, it's about a political so called leader using groupthink to discourage anyone using their right to protest.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat Incorrect, the blow-back to the protests started as soon as NFL players decided to disrespect our national anthem, which was well before Trump said anything about it.
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    Agreed, Trump isn't a pioneer in this matter, the backlash that NFL players received was WELL established long before Trump said a word on the matter.  Still, we're right back at insisting that somehow...voicing your disagreement is a suppression of constitutional rights.  The Misnomer is old.
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • NFL players are allowed to take a knee for anthem and flag. People also have the right to boo that.
    I am no longer active on DebateIsland or any debate website. Many things I have posted here and on other sites (Such as believing in the flat Earth theory or other conspiracy theories such as those that are about the Las Vegas Shooting or 9/11) do not reflect on my current views. 

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p6M-VgXHwwdpJarhyQYapBz-kRc6FrgdOLFAd3IfYz8/edit

    https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/18248/#Comment_18248 (Me officially stating that I am no longer a flat-Earther)
  • NopeNope 397 Pts   -  
    I am not well educated in this subject. I need help understanding how knelling in the national anthem is disrespectful.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    Nope said:
    I am not well educated in this subject. I need help understanding how knelling in the national anthem is disrespectful.
    Americans are expected to stand at attention in reverence to their country during the anthem, similar to Nazi Germany. 
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • OakchairbcOakchairbc 88 Pts   -  
    Wake said:
    I fought in a war for my country and having millionaires attack this country for things they know nothing about is twenty steps over the line. I will no longer have anything to do with the NFL, the NBA or any of their sponsors.
    They are kneeling the only thing that is being attacked here is reality with your hysteria. 
    Vaulk
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    @Oakchairbc

    This is the second debate I've found your comments to personally attack the character of someone else who's made their opinion known.  This isn't facebook and it's not a comment section on youtube, this is a debate forum where everyone can voice their opinion while respecting the debating process.  
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • OakchairbcOakchairbc 88 Pts   -  
    Vaulk said:
    @Oakchairbc

    This is the second debate I've found your comments to personally attack the character of someone else who's made their opinion known.  This isn't facebook and it's not a comment section on youtube, this is a debate forum where everyone can voice their opinion while respecting the debating process.  
      There is nothing respectful about being hysterical and slandering protesters. Stop being a mindless hypocrite. 
  • NonCredentiNonCredenti 46 Pts   -  
    Of the hundreds of players who have knelt, how many have complained about the backlash? How many of them have made complaints about backlash their new main issue? That's what I've seen for three pages of this discussion, but I haven't seen any players making an issue of it. I haven't seen a single player say they should be immune from backlash. If that's the main thing they're complaining about now, where can I find this? Surely of the hundreds of players who have taken place in protests, the majority of whom are now supposedly complaining non-stop about backlash, it should be easy to come up with dozens of examples, maybe scores of examples. 

    What I have not seen is any mention of the fact that Colin Kaepernick spoke with a former teammate and former Green Beret, Nate Boyer, about how to protest unequal treatment of African Americans without being disrespectful. It was this former Green Beret who settled with him on kneeling. Boyer told him specifically that kneeling before the flag was not disrespectful.  Now, Nate Boyer, former Green Beret, is not the final arbiter of what is considered respectful or disrepsectul, but it seems to me that if we're going to blame someone for "disrespect," we should be blaming Boyer for misleading Kaepernick, right? No, of course not. When we find out that it was Boyer who told him his form of protest was not disrepectful, we start looking for ways to hand-wave it away. 

  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -   edited November 2017
    @NonCredenti

    As of today: 16 November, 2017, the answer to your question of how many NFL Players have complained about the backlash they've received or that other players have received over the NFL protests: 

    These are instances of representatives who have been recorded as speaking for the entirety of their team
    The entirety of:
    Detroit Lions 
    Seattle Seahawks
    Green Bay Packers

    These are specific players from teams who have not necessarily had representatives speak on behalf of the entire team:
    Specific Players:
    New Orleans Saints - Drew Bees, Cameron Jordan, Brandon Coleman, Kenny Vaccaro, Alvin Kamara, Coby Fleener, Mark Ingram
    Buffalo Bills - LeSean McCoy, Tyrod Taylor
    Baltimore Ravens - Eric Weddle, Joe Flacco, Benjamin Watson, Coach John Harbaugh
    Carolina Panthers - Julius Peppers
    Los Angeles Rams - Andrew Whitworth
    New England Patriots - Johnson Bademosi
    Houston Texans - Christian Covington
    New York Jets - Kelvin Beachum
    Miami Dolphins - Laremy Tunsil

    https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/09/24/nfl-players-comments-trump-national-anthem-protests
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/us/nfl-media-day-take-knee-protests/index.html

    It wasn't really hard to find this list.  2-3 google searches and 2-3 links led to all the information available above about which players have complained publicly about the backlash either they or other players have received from either Trump or the fanbase that disagrees with their protest.
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • NonCredentiNonCredenti 46 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk

    These seem to be about reactions to Trump's comments, calling them SOBs and whatnot. So the consensus is?:

    1. The players protested. They were technically within their rights, but it was extremely disrepectful to the flag. A former Green Beret told them it wasn't disrespectful, but what does he know?
    2. Next the President and others protested the protesters. This is to be expected, and the President and others were just exercising their rights. Within their rights, protected, and admirable.
    3. Next the players protested the protest of their protest. This is whining (or whinging for you Aussies) on the part of ungrateful rich players.  They shouldn't protest against protests. 

    So 1 & 3 bad. 2 good.
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    @NonCredenti

    My contention (I can't speak for anyone here) is that some of our debateisland.com members have falsely led others to believe that your #2 statement equals a violation of the NFL Players' constitutional right to freedom of speech.

    I honestly don't think the NFL Players are being very smart about their method of protest but my opinion is mostly irrelevant.  I do however, really...really...really loathe the idea of intentional misrepresentation of an idea in order to make it seem leagues worse than it actually is.  I make it somewhat of a personal goal to stretch people out for display when I see examples of it...it's really one of the lowest and despicable forms of lying.
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • NonCredentiNonCredenti 46 Pts   -  
    Vaulk said:
    @NonCredenti

    My contention (I can't speak for anyone here) is that some of our debateisland.com members have falsely led others to believe that your #2 statement equals a violation of the NFL Players' constitutional right to freedom of speech.


    Understood. I think I've handicapped myself in this conversation because I mute flat-earthers so I'm missing chunks of the conversation.

    Strictly speaking, NONE of this is about the 1st Amendment, which is about the government curtailing speech. I think the President speaking the way he did could give the appearance of government interference of speech, but it was not a !A violation. 
  • NonCredentiNonCredenti 46 Pts   -  
    Vaulk said:
    I do however, really...really...really loathe the idea of intentional misrepresentation of an idea in order to make it seem leagues worse than it actually is.  
    BTW, this is what I think the anti-protest crowd is doing. I confess I haven't followed the national reactions to the protests closely, but I haven't seen a single man-on-the street interview where an "anti-protester" addressed the issues behind the protests--or even acknowledged them. I would bet a decent chunk of money that in a national poll of conservatives, more than 50% of respondents would say the "purpose of" the NFL protests is "to disrespect the country / flag / soldiers."  Even on TV, the professional talking heads (conservative and liberal) either ignore it or give it a half-sentence of lip service before moving on to the "disrespecting our soldiers" angle. 
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  

    BTW, this is what I think the anti-protest crowd is doing. I confess I haven't followed the national reactions to the protests closely, but I haven't seen a single man-on-the street interview where an "anti-protester" addressed the issues behind the protests--or even acknowledged them. I would bet a decent chunk of money that in a national poll of conservatives, more than 50% of respondents would say the "purpose of" the NFL protests is "to disrespect the country / flag / soldiers."  Even on TV, the professional talking heads (conservative and liberal) either ignore it or give it a half-sentence of lip service before moving on to the "disrespecting our soldiers" angle. 
    I think most people realize their intention is to object to the flag, nation and police by showing their disrespect.  Disrespecting the military is simply an unintended consequence of their actions.
  • NonCredentiNonCredenti 46 Pts   -  
    CYDdharta said:

    BTW, this is what I think the anti-protest crowd is doing. I confess I haven't followed the national reactions to the protests closely, but I haven't seen a single man-on-the street interview where an "anti-protester" addressed the issues behind the protests--or even acknowledged them. I would bet a decent chunk of money that in a national poll of conservatives, more than 50% of respondents would say the "purpose of" the NFL protests is "to disrespect the country / flag / soldiers."  Even on TV, the professional talking heads (conservative and liberal) either ignore it or give it a half-sentence of lip service before moving on to the "disrespecting our soldiers" angle. 
    I think most people realize their intention is to object to the flag, nation and police by showing their disrespect.  Disrespecting the military is simply an unintended consequence of their actions.
    They met with an ex-teammate who is also an ex Green Beret to discuss ways to protest in a respectful way. This ex soldier agreed that kneeling before the flag is not disrespectful. 
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  

    They met with an ex-teammate who is also an ex Green Beret to discuss ways to protest in a respectful way. This ex soldier agreed that kneeling before the flag is not disrespectful. 
    One ex soldier doesn't speak for the country.  In fact, he doesn't even speak for most veterans.  The ex-teammate, ex Green Beret was wrong.
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    Agreed.  As a Veteran I cannot possibly ever...EVER speak for all Veterans or even a majority of them and I would never do the unspeakable and pretend to.  That said, the guy that advised Kaepernick to kneel instead of just sitting there isn't the authority on what is or is not seen as disrespectful to the Flag.  Let's not forget, before he was kneeling he was sitting with his head down and making it clear that he refused to even acknowledge our Flag or National Anthem.  Now that he's kneeling, the idea is that it's somehow respectful.

    I don't think the question has been posed yet.  Just "How" is it respectful (Feeling or showing deference and respect) to refuse to stand with your fellow Americans for the Flag and National Anthem?  I'm not saying it's impossible...but I don't quite see "How" that can be viewed in any way, shape or form as respectful.  Showing respect means something...it's not just a word we can toss around or claim without proof.  Not only is showing respect identifiable but it is measurable.  So please, anyone, explain to me how this is respectful.
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • NonCredentiNonCredenti 46 Pts   -  
    One ex soldier doesn't speak for the country.  In fact, he doesn't even speak for most veterans.  The ex-teammate, ex Green Beret was wrong.
    Just as you would readily agree that Kaepernick and Boyer don't speak for the country (or all black people in the country, or all football players in the country, etc.) I assume you would also agree that neither you, Vaulk, I, or Trump speaks for the country. Nobody speaks for the country. They consulted someone who they thought had a good handle on the issue and were told something that you disagree with. Are you going to condemn Boyer for giving them bad information? 
  • NonCredentiNonCredenti 46 Pts   -  
    Vaulk said:
    ...That said, the guy that advised Kaepernick to kneel instead of just sitting there isn't the authority on what is or is not seen as disrespectful to the Flag.  Let's not forget, before he was kneeling he was sitting with his head down and making it clear that he refused to even acknowledge our Flag or National Anthem.  Now that he's kneeling, the idea is that it's somehow respectful.

    I don't think the question has been posed yet.  Just "How" is it respectful (Feeling or showing deference and respect) to refuse to stand with your fellow Americans for the Flag and National Anthem?  I'm not saying it's impossible...but I don't quite see "How" that can be viewed in any way, shape or form as respectful.  Showing respect means something...it's not just a word we can toss around or claim without proof.  Not only is showing respect identifiable but it is measurable.  So please, anyone, explain to me how this is respectful.
    I agree that neither Boyer nor anybody else is the authority on disrespect, but doesn't the bolded demonstrate an effort on Kaepernick's part to not be disrespectful? According to Boyer, he met with Kaepernick and another teammate (Bennett?) about the protest. Kaepernick told him sitting in the background on the bench wasn't meant to be disrespectful to the flag or anthem, but Boyer said he felt it was, and it would be better if he could find a different way to protest. They settled on joining his teammates, but kneeling. Doesn't that demonstrate to you an effort to not be disrespectful? Otherwise, why change from sitting to kneeling?

    Without getting too far off into semantical weeds, Kaepernick's goal wasn't to show respect, it was to not be actively disrespectful. According to the US Flag Code (I haven't read it, but I think Boyer said he consulted it, and he mentioned some things in it) one shouldn't display the flag horizontally. The NFL does this before every game. The flag is also not supposed to be made into articles of clothing, like bandanas, bikinis, and track suits. Do you think the NFL intends to be disrespectful when they display the flag horizontally? Do you think people who wear US flag bikinis mean to be disrepectful? I think the opposite; that they intend to show respect. As I said, it's subjective, and some people can see the same action in opposite ways. 

    That subjectivity is the problem if we want to make sweeping statements. How do you measure respect? The whole issue is too subjective. Everyone has their opinion on the matter, and how would you hope to tell someone else their feelings are measurably wrong? Boyer told them kneeling was not disrespectful. What is the measure by which you tell him he's wrong?

  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  

     Are you going to condemn Boyer for giving them bad information? 
    Yes
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Vaulk said:
    ...That said, the guy that advised Kaepernick to kneel instead of just sitting there isn't the authority on what is or is not seen as disrespectful to the Flag.  Let's not forget, before he was kneeling he was sitting with his head down and making it clear that he refused to even acknowledge our Flag or National Anthem.  Now that he's kneeling, the idea is that it's somehow respectful.

    I don't think the question has been posed yet.  Just "How" is it respectful (Feeling or showing deference and respect) to refuse to stand with your fellow Americans for the Flag and National Anthem?  I'm not saying it's impossible...but I don't quite see "How" that can be viewed in any way, shape or form as respectful.  Showing respect means something...it's not just a word we can toss around or claim without proof.  Not only is showing respect identifiable but it is measurable.  So please, anyone, explain to me how this is respectful.
    I agree that neither Boyer nor anybody else is the authority on disrespect, but doesn't the bolded demonstrate an effort on Kaepernick's part to not be disrespectful? According to Boyer, he met with Kaepernick and another teammate (Bennett?) about the protest. Kaepernick told him sitting in the background on the bench wasn't meant to be disrespectful to the flag or anthem, but Boyer said he felt it was, and it would be better if he could find a different way to protest. They settled on joining his teammates, but kneeling. Doesn't that demonstrate to you an effort to not be disrespectful? Otherwise, why change from sitting to kneeling?

    Without getting too far off into semantical weeds, Kaepernick's goal wasn't to show respect, it was to not be actively disrespectful. According to the US Flag Code (I haven't read it, but I think Boyer said he consulted it, and he mentioned some things in it) one shouldn't display the flag horizontally. The NFL does this before every game. The flag is also not supposed to be made into articles of clothing, like bandanas, bikinis, and track suits. Do you think the NFL intends to be disrespectful when they display the flag horizontally? Do you think people who wear US flag bikinis mean to be disrepectful? I think the opposite; that they intend to show respect. As I said, it's subjective, and some people can see the same action in opposite ways. 

    That subjectivity is the problem if we want to make sweeping statements. How do you measure respect? The whole issue is too subjective. Everyone has their opinion on the matter, and how would you hope to tell someone else their feelings are measurably wrong? Boyer told them kneeling was not disrespectful. What is the measure by which you tell him he's wrong?

    there is nothing wrong with displaying the flag horizontally;

    (h) When the flag of the United States is displayed from a staff projecting horizontally or at an angle from the window sill, balcony, or front of a building, the union of the flag should be placed at the peak of the staff unless the flag is at half staff.
    When the flag is suspended over a sidewalk from a rope extending from a house to a pole at the edge of the sidewalk, the flag should be hoisted out, union first, from the building.

    i) When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street.
    https://www.legion.org/flag/code

    If Kaepernick's intention was just to not show respect for the flag, he would have stayed in the locker room until after the anthem was played.  His intention was to show disrespect to the flag, the nation, and all those that serve.


  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    I'd like to clarify something here.  I doubt very seriously Kaepernick intended to disrespect those who serve.  *Laughs*  That's not really relevant though, I think he realized after speaking with whoever this Service Member was, that his actions were very much disrespectful to Service Members...else he wouldn't have stopped sitting.  The problem is that kneeling isn't much of a step-up from sitting.  Granted I'll give it to him, kneeling is not as disrespectful as sitting on your 5th point of contact with your head down.

    When I see him kneeling, what I see is "I refuse to stand with my fellow teammates" "I refuse to show the same respect that they show to the flag and our Country" "I refuse to dignify the symbol of our Country, of our values, of our way of life".  There's nothing respectful about his actions in regards to the Flag, our Country or the Men and Women who've died protecting it.  
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • GhostyGhosty 60 Pts   -  
    I personally think that kneeling to the flag isn't disrespectful. I don't think anything is disrespectful unless you are purposely trying to be so. I think there are many misunderstandings. When you meet an alien and you wave hello, the alien might think you're disrespectful because maybe waving means "I want to fight" in his or her planet. But actually, there is no disrespect. It's just all a misunderstanding. So I think the Football players are kneeling because they want equal rights. They feel that they are not treated equally. And we have to do something to change that. The players aren't purposely kneeling to be disrespectful. Patriotism? I think it's patriotism enough that they are risking injuries to play football, the legendary American game, for the American fans. Let the players do as they wish. I'm sure they love their country. It's just that they want some change. Think about that.
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    @Ghosty

    So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that disrespect is all about "Intent"?  So nothing can be considered disrespectful if you don't intend to disrespect?  So if I went to a Civil Rights parade on Martin Luther King Jr. Day and held a sign that said "I think enslaving Africans was a wise decision from an economic standpoint" then by your logic...if I don't "Intend" to disrespect anyone then making my opinion known in that fashion is NOT disrespectful...right?
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  

    I'm lost on that one too^. It was probably intentional disrespect. Not for a country itself, but for it's representatives. What the flag can be argued to stand for.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • GhostyGhosty 60 Pts   -  
    No, I admit that wasn't really clear. Nothing is (universally) disrespectful if you aren't doing it on purpose. Of course, such an act would  be mostly disrespectful, but probably not to everyone. Yes, I guess the NFL players are intentionally doing their thing. However, their purpose is to be treated fairly, not to disrespect the flag.
  • GhostyGhosty 60 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk
    Yes, as I think about it, I am admittedly wrong about my belief in disrespect. However, freedom of speech is still important in America. Let people do as they wish. Freedom of speech is what makes democracy, democracy.
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    @Ghosty

    I don't have a problem with freedom of speech or expression for that matter.  I believe all people in the United States should be free (Legally) to speak and express themselves.  This ideology does not however, protect people from criticism for their method or the context therein of their speech/expression.  If I chose to protest the War in Iraq by standing at the airport when dead Soldiers came home with billboards that read "Stop the pointless deaths"...that would be my choice and my exercise of "Freedom of Speech" but it would also be perceived as grossly disrespectful to the Soldiers that laid their life down in the line of duty.  So while people are entitled to protest in their own way...others are entitled to be disgusted with their chosen method of protest and in this particular case 49% of Americans are polled to be against it and only 43% are for it.  This of course is just a poll and obviously does not perfectly account for the entirety of Americans...still the statistics are to be taken into account and speak volumes about what public perception is in this case none-the-less.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/29/politics/national-anthem-nfl-cnn-poll/index.html
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    Why would so many people be "disgusted" by people kneeling? 

    http://www.truthbeknown.com/national.htm
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat

    If I had to guess, and it's mostly just that, I'd say that any attempt to politicize something as loved and cherished as NFL football games isn't going to end well.  People typically watch football to be entertained, to let go and to enjoy the sport, politicizing any aspect of the game or using the game as a platform for your political demonstration wouldn't be something I would advise anyone to do.

    Again the NFL is in the business of making money and generally speaking when your customers patron an establishment to purchase goods and services only to find out that the experience has become tainted with a political agenda...they generally leave.  Hence the drop in attendance at NFL games, the attendance being down 7.5% from last season is enough to identify a clear and apparent trend of disapproval by the public and again...this is a business.

    In order to identify why someone might disapprove of another person refusing to stand for the National Anthem and presentation of the American Flag, you must ask what these things are first.

    The American Flag is a symbol that represents:

    1. The Original 13 colonies
    2. The 50 States of the Union
    3. Red - Hardiness and Valor
    4. White  - Purity and Innocence
    5. Blue - Vigilance, Perseverance and Justice

    The American National Anthem is a song about the American Flag, an Anthem is simply an uplifting song.  The purpose of the singing or showing respect for the Anthem is to display patriotism and to honor the history, struggles and traditions of the United States of America.

    So, why then would someone find it disgusting that someone refuse to stand with their Country to show respect in the traditional and wholly accepted method towards these ideologies, towards these virtues, towards these fundamental principles?  Simply put, because when you refuse to stand with your fellow Countrymen in support of these things then you are being divisive and alienating yourself from your Countrymen and thereby disrespecting the very thing that brings us together as a Nation.  

    Is the United States perfect?  No.  We've got problems, but if you REALLY want problems and you REALLY want to create division then you should go ahead and abandon all of our fundamental principles represented by our Flag by showing disrespect and disapproval of it, meanwhile there are people dying for it as we speak.

    https://www.rt.com/sport/407520-nfl-negative-effects-anthem-protests/
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    @vaulk
    "People typically watch football to be entertained, to let go and to enjoy the sport, politicizing any aspect of the game or using the game as a platform for your political demonstration wouldn't be something I would advise anyone to do."

    So then, by your logic, participating in the national anthem should not be forced upon by anyone attending or participating in those events? Why not remove the political anthem from these events altogether? Hasn't the NFL politicized the traditional introduction with the anthem? What if standing at attention during the anthem was against one's religion?

    "The American Flag is a symbol that represents:

    1. The Original 13 colonies
    2. The 50 States of the Union
    3. Red - Hardiness and Valor
    4. White  - Purity and Innocence
    5. Blue - Vigilance, Perseverance and Justice"

    This is what it represents to you. To me it represents a few hours of cheap child labor in China.


    "The purpose of the singing or showing respect for the Anthem is to display patriotism and to honor the history, struggles and traditions of the United States of America"

    So, what if I love my home, but I do not care to show "patriotism" for this empire. What if I don't want to honor the history, struggles, or tradition of the USA? What if I just go to a football game just to, as you say, watch (or play) football to be entertained, to let go and to enjoy the sport? Why should I be forced or pressured to do anything at all except watch or play football? Does this make me a bad person? Have I hurt anyone? There's no reason to be a fvcking baby and whine about my freedom to do and act as I please as long as I don't hurt anyone.

    "So, why then would someone find it disgusting that someone refuse to stand with their Country to show respect in the traditional and wholly accepted method towards these ideologies, towards these virtues, towards these fundamental principles?  Simply put, because when you refuse to stand with your fellow Countrymen in support of these things then you are being divisive and alienating yourself from your Countrymen and thereby disrespecting the very thing that brings us together as a Nation."

    To sum it up, you're just saying, step in line, follow the herd. Sorry, I can't do that, because I know where that leads to. You really should read some Orwell.


    There was this saying. When all the buffalo are running towards the cliff, the one running in the opposite direction seems crazy.
    I'm just guessing you're military. Are you familiar with MKULtra?
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    I'm not sure how you cannot see how authoritarian this is.

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
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