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My undocumented friend: Carlos does the work few in Vermont want to do

Debate Information

Carlos was one of the estimated 1,000-2,000 undocumented, mostly Mexican immigrants employed on the state’s dairy farms


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/25/undocumented-immigrants-vermont-dairy-industry


aarongpiloteer
  1. Live Poll

    Should Carlos be deported?

    29 votes
    1. Yes
      72.41%
    2. No
      27.59%
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    Arguments


  • WhyTrumpWhyTrump 234 Pts   -  
    This is a good example of Useful function played by undocumented immigrants.
    WhyTrump - a good question
  • islander507islander507 194 Pts   -  
    Carlos should be deported.  He is here illegally, and whether he serves a useful function or not for the local economy it is unfair to American tax payers and other immigrants who waited for their turn to come here.
    George_Horse
  • agsragsr 881 Pts   -  
    The article makes an argument that likely without illegal immigrants the dairy economy in Vermont would dry up.  That maybe true, but if we are relying on illegal labor to do this, then it is still not a valid reason supporting undocumented immigrants.
    George_Horse
    Live Long and Prosper
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    He should be deported and let back in when he applies for and is granted a Visa.  Illegals do not benefit our society.  Legal migrants that come here to work and aren't taking American jobs do.
    George_Horse
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    Well I don't know, has Carlos been screened for dangerous contagious diseases such as Malaria, Ebola, Smallpox, Dengue Fever, The Plague?  These are all diseases that exist in 3rd world countries because there is absolutely no Government accountability concerning Citizens with deadly and communicable diseases.  Has Carlos had a background check?  Is there even a way to verify that he's not some Serial Child Rapist from another Country?  Granted the percent of foreigners who are horrible criminals is probably very low...like 5%-10% of the total...but can you roll the dice with 1-10 odds that you're not going to hire some sick, nasty criminal with a history that would put Charles Manson to shame?  Seems like a big...no HUGE risk for such a tiny benefit like having someone work in the dairy industry who doesn't pay taxes.
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • valexiajj1927valexiajj1927 14 Pts   -  
    Yes, there are little to no exceptions when it comes to deportations or that's the way it should be.
    George_Horse
  • hucj_rockhucj_rock 2 Pts   -  
    No, people like Carlos don't deserve to be deported.

    he clearly contributed to American and his community, if he gets deported, his farm and others could suffer.
    George_Horse
  • melanielustmelanielust 285 Pts   -  
    He does valuable work and contributes to society. People say he's benefitting off of other people's taxes with welfare programs even though he's not a citizen, but he's just as good as a citizen so his presence in America isn't hurting anyone.
  • melanielustmelanielust 285 Pts   -  
  • lansilo_user19lansilo_user19 15 Pts   -  
    Im sure he's a great guy, but all illegals must be deported and fast as well.
    George_Horse
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    @melanielust ; I'm afraid by definition, Mexico is in fact a 3rd world country.  Pick a source...any source, any official determining factor and you will see that Mexico is listed (Along with many other countries) as a 3rd world country. 

    http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm
    https://www.reference.com/geography/mexico-third-world-country-ac77a931a28e3a8
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World
    http://learnersdictionary.com/definition/third world
    https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Mexico-viewed-as-a-third-world-country

    All these references will explain and prove why Mexico is a "3rd World Country" but this is setting aside the fact that Mexico has no sovereignty.






    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • joecavalryjoecavalry 430 Pts   -  
    Yes, he must be deported. Any illegal immigrant needs to be, because when exceptions start to be made everyone started expecting to not be deported due to their job, personality etc.
    George_Horse
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • ale5ale5 263 Pts   -  
    @joecavalry ;
    I don't agree that we should deport 11 million people - it's inhumane.
    It's kind of fun to do the impossible
    - Walt Disney
  • meta_capitalinmeta_capitalin 19 Pts   -  
    I agree with @ale5 . Carlos is a great person and this country wouldn't be the same without him... and many others alike.
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    Maybe we should let Carlos stay...and by doing so we would send the message to the millions of people who are going about the "Legal" way of gaining citizenship that their efforts to do the right thing to get into the U.S. are great and all...but we're going to give shortcuts to those who chose to break the law and skip the line.  Imagine you and your wife can't have children so you begin going through the adoption process, 12 months later you're still waiting for your approval to adopt and meanwhile your neighbor decides to just steal a child.  Then you find out the Government decided to give your neighbor a break because he's had the child for so long that it would be just too inhumane to remove the child from him...and you're still stuck waiting for your approval...this is essentially the message we'd be sending to all the people that respect our laws: "Respect our laws regarding immigration and you'll be passed up by everyone else who didn't respect our laws...they'll be given preference while you have to wait the full period for citizenship and you STILL might be turned down".  This is also called "Wrong" where I come from.
    aarongall4actt
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • love2debatelove2debate 186 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk, that's an Amazing point!  
  • knekk_3029knekk_3029 32 Pts   -  
    No, Carlos should not be deported. As a democrat, I am against these mass deportations. I agree with @Vaulk on this debate. Carlos clearly contributed to our society in the United States. Without him and other illegal immigrants, our workforce will change and the economy could collapse. Although, the unemployed Americans can relpace these Illegal Immigrants' jobs. The issue with that is simply... Experience, skill, location, pay etc. the illegal immigrants and being payed a little amount of money to do their job, Americans can't be paid so little but the smallest would be the minimum wage. With skill, people coming in to these jobs would not be skilled to most likely not doing them before. Also, labor is a big issue due to the high labor required for these jobs which Americans may not want or prefer to actually do. That is a major issue as well.
    George_Horse
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    @knekk_3029 ; The reply button is very misleading, I think you meant to agree with another debater lol.  But to respond to @knekk_3029, I'm not sure how anyone can verify that an illegal immigrant is contributing to our society.  How does one measure the contributions of an illegal immigrant?  Some might say "Well he pays taxes" to which I would reply "With what Social Security Number"?  If you don't have an SSN or Tax ID number then you simply cannot have taxes deducted from your wages and therefor cannot contribute to income Tax or Social Security Tax.  Likewise if Carlos is performing a job in the U.S. as an undocumented worker...then his employer isn't required to give him fair pay, benefits, time off...ect.  So what's to stop his employer (Who's apparently ok with using illegal labor) from out-selling his competition due to his abnormally low worker expenses?  If two Dairy Farms operate in the same country and sell their products nationwide...but one of those Dairy Farms uses cheap and illegal labor, who's going to be able to sell products at a lower rate and therefor out-perform their competition?  While this problem is the fault of Carlos per say (The employer should be charged) the existence of this labor force is still and undeniable issue and IS NOT a good thing for our Economy.
    aarong
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    And excuse me ladies and gentlemen, never debate before Coffee.  Phew I sincerely apologize for that grammar mess above.
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • randalrandal 67 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk , lol. I agree, you should make a debate on "should people debate before coffee." Any who, I agree with @Vaulk
  • agsragsr 881 Pts   -   edited April 2017
    The founder of Reddit speaks out with a personal video lashing out for illegal immigration.

    He makes it a personal story about his parents.
    I don't think though that it gives him the right to defend illegal immigration, although It makes sense to endorse immigration in general sith his story.
    http://money.cnn.com/video/technology/2017/03/22/alexis-ohanian-immigration.cnnmoney/
    Live Long and Prosper
  • ale5ale5 263 Pts   -  
    Poor Carlos is just getting so much heat for people wanting to deport him. I would say that on a scale of our priorities right now we have so much more to focus on than how to mess up poor Carlos's life - I would first focus on the North Korea, Middle East, health reform, tax reform. If we need to deal with illegal immigrants - let's deal first with those who have criminal records before we go anywhere near people like Carlos.
    It's kind of fun to do the impossible
    - Walt Disney
  • nato_baronato_baro 9 Pts   -   edited April 2017
    Yes, I agree with @agsr . I came to this website because of him and so did many others. He is the all time leader. Also, the website is great. 
  • agsragsr 881 Pts   -  
    @nato_baro, that is very humbling feedback and thank you for joining us on the Island...
    regarding Carlos, it is sad that liberals are making this issue about being "a good person" instead of looking at the core issue of it being illegal and having a serious financial burden on American tax payers.
    I am not saying lets immediately start mass deportations, or argue against immigration in general, but tolerating illegal actions are just not fair to American tax payers (I am sure that Carlos is a great person..maybe)
    aarong
    Live Long and Prosper
  • I agree with @vaulk .
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    I agree with @nato_baro , he makes a really interesting point that liberals are making this into an issue of Carlos being a good person instead of focusing on the underlying issue.  I think we can all agree that Carlos is most likely a good person...this doesn't change the fact that he shouldn't be in the United States. 
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • I agree with @vaulk .
  • George_HorseGeorge_Horse 499 Pts   -  
    He should be deported. He needs to follow the laws of our country by being a citizen, he's even being paid, NOT okay. 
    Applesauce
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill

    We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.~Orson Welles
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    Let's be more accurate and honest here.  Carlos is willing to do a job that other's aren't willing to do for what Carlos is being paid.  I'd shovel sh1t all day long for $50 per hour.  So the reality is the farmer is exploiting the criminal illegal alien.  Person in the country illegally is a crime, hiring that person is also a crime.  Are you ok with exploitation?
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 493 Pts   -  
    @islander507 it's really not unfair when you get no benefits, no minimum wage, no labor laws. His boss can literally best the out of him just for fun if he wants to. It's a pretty unstable and scary thing to be an illegal immigrant, people don't become them for shits and gigs
    Applesauce
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    According to the current law, Carlos may be deported (although not necessarily "has" to be deported).

    From the economical considerations, he should not, since his work benefits the land he lives on tremendously, and all people living in his state and, by extension, in all states - are better off for him employing so many undocumented immigrants.

    This is the case where the law conflicts with practicality. What should be prioritized, blindly following the law no matter what it is, or focusing on the practicality and bending the law when needed? I think it depends on the personal views. Mine would be somewhere in between.
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    According to the current law, Carlos may be deported (although not necessarily "has" to be deported).

    From the economical considerations, he should not, since his work benefits the land he lives on tremendously, and all people living in his state and, by extension, in all states - are better off for him employing so many undocumented immigrants.

    This is the case where the law conflicts with practicality. What should be prioritized, blindly following the law no matter what it is, or focusing on the practicality and bending the law when needed? I think it depends on the personal views. Mine would be somewhere in between.
    how does his work benefit the land he lives on tremendously?
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    Farming is an activity that has a tremendous return value. One farmer can feed thousands people with modern technology. Carlos and a thousand of his employees, each working on farms, can easily feed over a million Americans all by themselves.

    Australia had a program in early 2000-s (maybe still has) that promoted immigration on a special visa type with the goal to settle the central area of the continent. The government offered heavy subsidies to anyone willing to settle the lands, work on farms - with some requirements, such as agricultural education and/or experience. The program did not do well, probably because it was not advertised properly - but it is the kind of idea that separates a smart government from a narrowminded one.

    Encouraging people like Carlos to hire employees to do farming is one of the best ways of achieving economical prosperity. I think the US would do well by issuing a certain quota for this type of immigrants, and pardoning/legalizing those already involved in this activity.
  • TheocratTheocrat 69 Pts   -  
    Abolish welfare and minimum wage and you will find a whole new cashe of people willing to work Carlos' job.
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    I believe there is already a system in the U.S. for seasonal migrant workers, that is legal.....
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    If I built a Machine that served as a source for clean and renewable energy and created ten servicing jobs by making it but I built it with a motor I stole from someone else...could I simply insist that the rightful owner of the engine just grant me amnesty for my crime AND let me keep the engine because I'm using the stolen property to create jobs for others?

    This is the level of ridiculousness we're at with the argument that "But they're working jobs that we need to have workers for". 
    Applesauce
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk ;

    Maybe you should take another look on immigration restrictions and ask yourself why they are needed in the first place. What do immigration laws aim to achieve? What is their purpose?

    Then ask yourself, "Did Carlos fulfill that purpose?" If the answer is "yes", then the immigration laws need to be modified to reflect this state of affairs. If the answer is "no", then you would be right - but I strongly disagree that in this case the answer is "no". Carlos brought more economical benefit to the US than the vast majority of legal immigrants did.
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    @Vaulk ;

    Maybe you should take another look on immigration restrictions and ask yourself why they are needed in the first place. What do immigration laws aim to achieve? What is their purpose?

    Then ask yourself, "Did Carlos fulfill that purpose?" If the answer is "yes", then the immigration laws need to be modified to reflect this state of affairs. If the answer is "no", then you would be right - but I strongly disagree that in this case the answer is "no". Carlos brought more economical benefit to the US than the vast majority of legal immigrants did.
    you are justifying breaking the law.  If the law needs to be changed that's one thing, but the law is still the law no matter how you try to rationalize lawlessness.  This same argument could be made for drug dealers and pimps.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    There was a time when drinking alcohol was illegal in the US. It caused massive economical problems and led to incredible growth of the shadow economy - but nonetheless, it was illegal. People did it anyway, in more massive quantities than in the lack of prohibition. Do you think it wrong that the police did not enforce this law as much as it could? I do not.

    Laws are not absolute, they can be changed and they can be ignored, when necessary. Rationality often does not converge on the currently active laws. When laws are rational, then these two can coexist in peace. When they are not, then you have to choose between following the rational considerations and following the law - and I personally choose practical solutions over abstract legal dogmas.

    That said, here I advocate for changing the law, not for bypassing the law. Bypassing the law only becomes necessary in oppressive states like China, where legal systems are based on the whims of the current authoritarian regime and not on practicality. The US, while having certain legal aberrations, overall is pretty practical in its lawmaking process.
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    I would agree with most of that, but to claim we need illegal alien workers I don't believe that to be true.  It's much like the "need" for a $15 an hour minimum wage, see how well that is going?  Farmers will automate anyway, it's been happening.  If they can't exploit illegals then the automation will happen faster.  You know this and the claims that we will starve w/o the illegals is just not true.
    https://www.agriculture.com/technology/robotics/how-automation-will-transform-farming
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    We do not need many things that are, nonetheless, desirable to have due to their economical benefits. We do not need people drinking alcohol - but it so happens that letting people drink alcohol leads to a stronger economy. We do not need the international trade - but the international trade happens to be incredibly beneficial for promoting business competition and for improving the end user product quality. We do not need immigration - but immigrants happen to diversify the economy, leading to a substantial increase of its growth.

    Do we need Carlos? No. Do we want him here? I do, and the economy does as well. The law does not, which simply means that the law has not kept up with time and needs to be modified.

    As far as automation goes, it is a different topic entirely. Automation will never replace the need for human input, until we have developed a self-modifying artificial intelligence - and that is the moment when humanity as we know it will end anyway. The growth of automation will require that people update their skills to better match the working environment, and illegal immigrants tend to be pretty inventive in this regard and will adapt easily, from my perspective.
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    you say the economy needs him, but I don't see proof of that and actually see proof saying we don't, hence the automation that I brought up.  If there is proof that there are economic benefits to have illegal no skilled workers I haven't seen any that out weights the costs.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    No, I said that the economy wants him, because he benefits it - but it does not "need" him; there are very few things that economy really needs for its continued existence. If individual economical freedoms are guaranteed, then the society will do the rest, and the economy will be fine. Restricting Carlos' economical freedoms, given how much he already contributes to the economy, would be counter-productive.

    I also do not see what economical costs are there. Costs to whom? Whose wealth does Carlos' farm takes away? He and his workers work on the farms, produce goods and trade them on a free market. If there are some hidden costs involved that are not present in case of legal workers, then I am not aware of them.
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    First, it is not true that all illegal immigrants do not pay taxes. All illegal immigrants pay the sales tax, and their employers typically deduct the income tax from their salaries in order to fulfill the requirements on legal accountability of business owners. From reading about Carlos' business model, it is obvious that his employees pay taxes. Do not forget that this is Vermont, a state with very heavy business accountability laws by the US standards.
    Second, farmers in the US get a lot of subsidies from the government. These illegal immigrants obviously do not, hence they are already doing work that many other Americans get financial assistance for, without such assistance.
    Third, if they work farms, then chances are they live in the wilderness, where roads are scarce, and schools are heavily underfunded. While their children's education may be funded from taxpayers' money, the fraction they take from the governmental funds is much smaller than that of the average American.
    Fourth, they cannot even use roads for driving, since they cannot obtain a driver's license and probably are too poor to be able to afford a car.

    All in all, especially in this particular case, the workers essentially put in as much work as Americans do on similar jobs and pay just as much in terms of taxes, but gain much less assistance from the government and get paid much less for their work by the private employer. If in this case the benefits do not outweigh the costs, then in case of American farmers the ratio is even worse - so, again, illegal immigrants doing this work benefit the economy more (or hurt it less, if you want to interpret it this way) than American citizens.

    Where your argument would be applicable is shadow economy, with arrangements like "You sneak into the kitchen every morning and cook some food until the evening, and I leave you $80 in the closet at the end of the day."
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    how can a business pay taxes for an illegal worker?  They deduct income tax so your friend is filing a tax return?  How do you take taxes and file a return w/o a social security number?  Illegals get caught by driving w/o a licence all the time.
    Every case is unique so I can't really speak to the specifics all that much, but you rationalize what he is doing, which I get, but the bottom line is illegal is illegal.  What of the many who go through the process, a very difficult one (probably doesn't need to be that way but that's a different topic), how is that fair to them?  What are his intentions to live illegally forever?  Is he learning English?  Trying to become legal?
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    @Applesauce

    Here is a general description of how it works:

    https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/

    We are just running around the circles here. My point is that his workers being illegal is less beneficial to the economy, compared to the alternative scenario where they are legal, hence the law should be changed in a way that considers them legal residents. That is what the immigration laws are about: assuring that the arrivals benefit the economy.

    Maybe some "economical incentive amnesty" law could be implemented: if someone is residing in the US illegally, but turns out to bring a lot of profit to the economy by doing work that otherwise is not considered illegal, then they can apply for a permanent residence status, and their previous status is exempted from being acted upon. I believe Australia used to, or still does, have such a system.
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 243 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    I do agree that reforms are very long overdue.  And I also agree it should be merit based like you indicated.  I'd be very happy to adopt or duplicate the Australia immigration system.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • piloteerpiloteer 1577 Pts   -  
    Americans ask for too much money. Minimum wages only cause prices to go up. It doesn't help anybody. I think Carlos is great, because his employment helps keep food costs down. If we deport Carlos, we should also deport those who support minimum wage requirements. 
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 493 Pts   -  
    @piloteer exactly that. It's really quite easy to get jobs to flood back into America. Just take less pay, with less benefits, and less protections. Just take it back to the late 1800's where you work for 12 hours a day, Monday through Saturday in the steel works, with every other Sunday alternating between a day off and a 24 hour shift, for barely enough pay to support a family, and if you get hurt on the job, well sucks for you. This isn't even hyperbole, this is how Andrew Carnegie ran his business, this is why labor laws and unions started.
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