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The earth is flat

2456720

Status: Open Debate

Arguments

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Logic said:
    Question: Flat earthers believe there is a big ice wall surrounding the world, How come we haven't found it? And how thick is this ''Flat earth.''
    Both at unfortunately unanswerable questions.

    Antarctica, the outer boundaries of the place we live is off limits pretty much to the public. The antarctic treaty and all..  Sure, there are pictures that come up on a Google image search, but I think you know my position on unverifiable imagery...

    http://bfy.tw/BO2x

    We've only dug about 8 miles deep. So I can't speculate how "thick" the earth is either, sorry.
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • The Earth is flat. Unless you are walking up a mountain.
    And of course walking down the other side of the mountain.
    If you cannot see beyond the end of your nose, then the Earth will always appear to be flat.
    joecavalry
  • joecavalryjoecavalry 190 Pts
    @Fredsnephew , if you really bringing up mountains, why do people see the earth as circular when they are ina peak of a very large mountain like Mount Everest?
    Erfisflat
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • WhyTrumpWhyTrump 148 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Erfisflat, if earth is flat how come when We fly from US East coast to Asia the plane actually gets us back returning through west coast of US?
    WhyTrump - a good question
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Fredsnephew , if you really bringing up mountains, why do people see the earth as circular when they are ina peak of a very large mountain like Mount Everest?

    They don't, you can't see the curvature from a mountain, nor a plane. There isn't any.
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    WhyTrump said:
    @Erfisflat, if earth is flat how come when We fly from US East coast to Asia the plane actually gets us back returning through west coast of US?
    I've answered this before, so I'll just copy paste it.  In the flat earth model, the north pole is the middle of a circle, with south all straight lines away from there. East and west are only relative. So circumnavigation is entirely possible on a flat earth. On a ball earth however, pilots get to a certain altitude and LEVEL out. On a ball they would fly out in space...
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • agsragsr 540 PtsPremium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    Premium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    @Erfisflat, wouldn't polar route disprove the flat earth theory then?  How would you defend against it?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_route
    Erfisflat
    Live Long and Prosper
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    edited June 5 Premium Member
    @agsr I would say that these flights are rare, often cancelled, or rerouted. I for one am not in the southern hemisphere to verify they exist at all, but i have tried to book them. Then I would say the map could be wrong, I didn't make it, it was given to me. I personally have measured the lake close to my house and it is perfectly flat on a calm day, this is something most people can confirm. 


    With the curvature calculator found here: https://dizzib.github.io/ you can see that an observer at 1000 feet looking at an item 163 miles away would find that object 10,631 feet below the horizon. This would place the peak of Canigou well over 1000 feet below the horizon however not only it, but other peaks near it are clearly seen. In the videos below you will see several, sometimes 6 or 7 noticeable and very clear distinct mountain peaks. Even peaks 4000 feet high can be seen and this peak should be over a mile below the horizon.





    http://canigou.allauch.free.fr/index.html
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • I'm a creationist and I still think the flat earth theory is a bunch of junk.  Your only evidence is speculation.  
    Erfisflat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @SuperSith89

    My evidence is logical and scientifically sound. I've yet to see the same verifiable evidence for a globe earth. So far there's zero. Whether it's 30 miles, 


    60 miles

     Or more


    The math is not wrong. It's not speculation to state facts. Water is Flat. No curvature has been found. Anywhere. 


    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • If the earth is flat, then what is on the other side?
    Have any "flat earthers" seen the other side?
    How thick is the flat earth?
    What keeps water from spilling over the edges?
    If you fly to the edge of the flat earth and keep going, What happens then?
    Are all celestial bodies flat?
    If so, why do we always see the flat side and not the edge?
    Presumably if we viewed the edge, celestial bodies would appear as an elongated cuboid.
    Coveny
  • agsragsr 540 PtsPremium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    Premium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    @Erfisflat, a few followup questions:
    1) if you could get on that flight via North Pole, would that provide you sufficient evidence that flat earth theory is wrong?
    2) would watching commercial flights on flight tracker go through North Pole be proof enough? Or would you argue that it is staged?


    Live Long and Prosper
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    agsr said:
    @Erfisflat, a few followup questions:
    1) if you could get on that flight via North Pole, would that provide you sufficient evidence that flat earth theory is wrong?
    2) would watching commercial flights on flight tracker go through North Pole be proof enough? Or would you argue that it is staged?


    northern polar flights at perfectly compatible with the flat earth model. 



    It's the supposed southern polar flights that I'm skeptical of.



    These southern hemisphere flights usually take the path expected on the flat earth map.




    The GPS is turned off during those flights, so I'd need to take a compass.



    Even if all this happened,  it doesn't prove curvature, it just proves the map is wrong. When you've measured the lack of curvature that must be there, you then can KNOW that water is flat, that's where the real argument is, and that's where the flat earth beats everytime. Do the experiment and see for yourself. 

    https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/nikon-coolpix-p900
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    edited June 8 Premium Member
    If the earth is flat, then what is on the other side?
    Have any "flat earthers" seen the other side?
    How thick is the flat earth?
    What keeps water from spilling over the edges?
    If you fly to the edge of the flat earth and keep going, What happens then?
    Are all celestial bodies flat?
    If so, why do we always see the flat side and not the edge?
    Presumably if we viewed the edge, celestial bodies would appear as an elongated cuboid.
    Ah I knew somebody would eventually drill me about the edge. I did find a rare picture of the edge, just for you.

    https://www.sonicscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/edge1_two.jpg

    In all seriousness, there may not be an edge. The outskirts of Antarctica is as far as any citizen is allowed to freely explore. Nobody can. It may be an infinite plane as suggested by this Buddhist map from 1,000 A.D.


    Celestial bodies at just points of light in the sky. NASA gives us CGI to make us think they are terra firma, but everyone should know how I feel about that.


    marijuansSilverishGoldNova
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • @Erfisflat , here she my question? How would airplanes or people travel in both directions a round the world if it's flat? IF you want to make a trip from Antarctica to NY, but go through the other side of the the world which they do know, you can't do that with a flat.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @marijuans
    I'm not sure what you mean. Source? 
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Since no one has brought it up, I'll do the honors. Scientism claim: A lunar eclipse occurs when the Moon passes directly behind the Earth into its umbra. This can occur only when the sun, Earth, and moon are aligned exactly, or very closely so, with the Earth in the middle.


    While this would indeed suggest a spherical earth, I turns out to be another red herring. First, this quote for Samuel Rowbotham:

    " that an eclipse of the moon arises from a shadow of the earth, is a statement in every respect, because unproved, unsatisfactory. The earth has been proved to be without orbital or axial motion; and, therefore, it could never come between the sun and the moon. The earth is also proved to be a plane, always underneath the sun and moon; and, therefore, to speak of its intercepting the light of the sun, and thus casting its own shadow on the moon, is to say that which is physically impossible.

    Besides the above difficulties or incompatibilities, many cases are on record of the sun and moon being eclipsed when both were above the horizon. The sun, the earth, and the moon, not in a straight line, but the earth below the sun and moon--out of the reach or direction of both--and yet a lunar eclipse has occurred! Is it possible that a "shadow" of the earth could be thrown upon the moon, when sun, earth, and moon, were not in the same line? "

    One such occurrence of this phenomenon, since labelled a selenelion was recorded, and can be reviewed here:


    This completely refutes this "evidence" for a spherical earth, if you have some common sense and knowledge of basic geometry. 


    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    I'll explain any more concerns related to that popsci article that keeps coming up in the Google search.
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Ball earth evidence that isn't pseudoscience or other logical fallacy so far: 0

    Flat earth: I lost count, how many?
    SilverishGoldNova
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • I am correct in assuming you believe in creation, yes?  Well I am sure you know of Answers In Genesis.  Very popular website filled with well written articles by creationists.  I found this on there to prove the Bible does not prove a flat Earth. https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/

    Erfisflat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    edited June 7 Premium Member
    I am correct in assuming you believe in creation, yes?  Well I am sure you know of Answers In Genesis.  Very popular website filled with well written articles by creationists.  I found this on there to prove the Bible does not prove a flat Earth. https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/

    I mean, I've already given you a rebuttal to that, any talking points you'd like to discuss? I think most Biblical creationists are forcing interpretations to conform to popular consensus. I don't understand how one can misinterpret verses like:

    1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

    Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm …”

    Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable …”

    Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

    Isaiah 45:18: “…who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast…”


    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • agsragsr 540 PtsPremium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    Premium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    @Erfisflat, I have do say that while I dont agree with Earth being flat I really think you are doing a great job defending this position and the material is really entertaining.  
    Bottom line is that if we can argue that there is a mass conspiracy theory that staged space exploration then no one can prove that earth is not flat.
    Erfisflat
    Live Long and Prosper
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @agsr

    Thanks for the kind words, could you please elaborate on the last statement you made?
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • agsragsr 540 PtsPremium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    Premium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    Hi @Erfisflat, sure. I guess the point I am trying to make is that if you will assert that space is fake in a mass conspiracy theory, despite imagery and other traditionally established evidence then I cannot see how someone can fully disprove your theory.  It becomes a question of who has a burden of proof.
    again, I really enjoy this topic as it certainly challenged my thinking and taught me to question what we take for granted.  I am still very much of believe that earth is round, but your arguments are excellent.
    Erfisflat
    Live Long and Prosper
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @agsr

    I'm glad to hear that, I hope you'll keep your mind open about this and any other ideas you may have dismissed before. Keep in mind that I am I no way trying to tell you what to think, that was what the public indoctrination system is for, I'm only here to show people how to think, encourage more of it, and urge people to not just accept what you're told, research all opposition and make an unbiased, informed decision. 

    There are a few things that would prove to me the earth was a ball.

    1. Let us see it ourselves! 
     
    If Buzz and company actually went to the Moon almost 50 years ago, there should be no problem getting a few regular citizens, ( ones that haven't swore an oath to Big Brother) at least to the ISS.  with the technological advancements over the last 50 years hell we should have McDonald's on the Moon by now.

    2. Put a live Cam on the moon!

    NASA steals over 50 million dollars a day. A decent live Cam on the moon (it shouldn't be hard, the same side faces us the whole time) available to all taxpayers. You know, one good enough to pick up a magnesium flare.

    3. A 360 degree camera pan

    This is pretty self explanatory for anyone with knowledge about movies, TV and 4th wall mechanics.

    4. Air lock bay footage

    One of the most exciting moments in those space movies is when they open the airlock hatch.  NASA has never given us footage of somebody suiting up, going into the airlock hatch, depressurizing and opening the door to space.

    I'm sure I could think of more, but the wife is bugging out, tomorrow is trash day. :/
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Proof that the earth is flat and motionless

    Gyroscopes

    Many of us science geeks know these toys  from the gift shop or as a simple top. Little did we know we had proof of the biggest lie ever told right in our hands. Gyroscope is defined as:

    a device consisting of a wheel or disk mounted so that it can spin rapidly about an axis that is itself free to alter in direction. The orientation of the axis is not affected by tilting of the mounting; so gyroscopes can be used to provide stability or maintain a reference direction in navigation systems, automatic pilots, and stabilizers. 

    From Wikipedia:
    A gyroscope is a spinning wheel mounted on a set of gimbals so that its axis is free to orient itself in any way.[2] When it is spun up to speed with its axis pointing in some direction, due to the law of conservation of angular momentum, such a wheel will normally maintain its original orientation to a fixed point in outer space (not to a fixed point on Earth). Since our planet rotates, it appears to a stationary observer on Earth that a gyroscope's axis is completing a full rotation once every 24 hours.

    Seems like a reasonable way to test for any axial rotation, but it was never demonstrated. In actuality, it was tested, and it doesn't move at all, ever.


    "NASA and modern astronomy say the Earth is a giant ball tilted back, wobbling and spinning 1,000 mph around its central axis, traveling 67,000 mph circles around the Sun, spiraling 500,000 mph around the Milky Way, while the entire galaxy rockets a ridiculous (1,300,000 )mph through the Universe, with all of these motions originating from an alleged “Big Bang” cosmogenic explosion 14 billion years ago. That’s a grand total of (1,868,000) mph in several different directions we’re all supposedly speeding along at simultaneously, yet no one has ever seen, felt, heard, measured or proven a single one of these motions to exist whatsoever."- Eric Dubay


    Would a gyroscope even be still for a minute?



    Not only that, but planes are mounted with gyroscopes, in a casing called an attitude indicator. Letting the pilot know which way is up, the gyroscope remains in a fixed position from it's starting point. If a pilot is traveling over a ball, not over a flat plane as our senses tell us, the attitude indicator would be useless over long distances. 



    Some higher end phones are equipped with a gyroscope, if yours isn't, get one of these, set it on your nightstand tonight, and wake up in the morning to be sure your senses aren't deceiving you, your phone, and the earth, hasn't moved an inch, and we can conclude that gyroscopes are evidence of a flat, stationary earth.

    https://www.quadratec.com/products/94050_00.htm?gclid=CM-EspC-rdQCFQsQgQodPMkBJQ






    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    edited June 8 Premium Member

    What planet is this?



    This is the old one:


    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    Around the time Disney was acquiring the rights to Lucasfilms, they quietly celebrated with this image of Han Solo, frozen in mercury on... Mercury. 


    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    The flat earth we live on is circular, with Antarctica fully surrounding us as an ice wall. Similar to a pizza. So we can describe our home as a pizza planet. Disney is known for putting easter eggs in their films. So is this another subliminal message?



    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • @Erfisflat Taking those verses at face value, sure it may prove it, but it doesn't mean He literally kept it still.  Some of the Bible has more imagery like in Revelation and even Jesus used stories to prove His points.  What I'm saying is that these verses aren't literal in any way. All Psalms were written in poetry form even, just do the research on how each book was written and the Hebrew words too.  

    Job 26:7  He stretches out the north over the void

    and hangs the earth on nothing."

    Isiah 40:22  "It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,

    and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;"

    Though you may argue these verses could be poetic too, it goes to show that the Bible doesn't support just one.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Erfisflat Taking those verses at face value, sure it may prove it, but it doesn't mean He literally kept it still.  Some of the Bible has more imagery like in Revelation and even Jesus used stories to prove His points.  What I'm saying is that these verses aren't literal in any way. All Psalms were written in poetry form even, just do the research on how each book was written and the Hebrew words too.  

    Job 26:7  He stretches out the north over the void

    and hangs the earth on nothing."

    Isiah 40:22  "It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,

    and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;"

    Though you may argue these verses could be poetic too, it goes to show that the Bible doesn't support just one.

    hanging the earth on nothing is far from spinning it around and sending it spiraling around an infinite vacuum, and yes a flat, circular earth. This I why I leave the bible out of my arguments, you and society can interpret it however you want. When it was written,  it was blatantly obvious and well known that the earth was flat and stationary, where at least the writers had the use of their God given senses.

    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • agsragsr 540 PtsPremium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    edited June 9 Premium MemberTechnology Community Moderator
    Here are a few ways you can prove the earth is round, after getting some help from Reddit science community.
    Just re-create the experiment that [Eratosthenes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes) used to measure the circumference of the Earth more than 2000 years ago. Here is a simple one you can do at home.

    Find a meter stick, walk outside on a sunny day, and stick it in the ground. Wait until noon. This should be noon not as said by your clock, but the point when the Sun is the highest in the sky. You can determine when this is by looking at the shadow of the stick. At local noon, the shadow will be pointing due north (if you're in the Northern hemisphere). 

    Now, measure the length of the shadow.

    Re-create this experiment again, many miles due north or south of your original location. You can either wait until tomorrow and go out and measure your stick, or have a friend who is many miles due north or south do the experiment at the same time. Your results won't be that different either way as long as you do the experiments within a few days of eacth other.

    What you will find is that the length of the stick's shadow is longer when you are further north. [This is because the Sun's rays are hitting the stick at a slightly different angle due to the Earth's curvature.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Eratosthenes_measure_of_Earth_circumference.svg/300px-Eratosthenes_measure_of_Earth_circumference.svg.png) With accurate measurements and only some simple trigonometry, you can measure the circumference of the Earth!

    The shadow is longer when you are further north. 
    Source:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/5oempt/what_could_i_do_to_personally_prove_the_earth_is/?st=J3PN1XP2&sh=5df484e7

    Another approach:



    * Vacation on the [ISS](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/STS-130_Endeavour_flyaround_5.jpg). It's quite the view. Can't afford to go? [Watch it live streamed 24 hours a day.](http://www.ustream.tv/channel/iss-hdev-payload)

    * Notice how only spheres [cast circular shadows](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Write_adam_-_Total_Lunar_Eclipse,_December_21_2010_\(by\).jpg) at any angle, which [Aristotle deduced](http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/heavens.2.ii.html), and [Aristarchus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Sizes_and_Distances_\(Aristarchus\)) used.

    * [Measure shadow angles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes) like Eratosthenes.  

    * Notice how the [constellations](http://www.star-map.fr/free-star-maps/) change with latitude. You could sail south and literally watch the North star dip below the horizon.  

    * Notice flat earth models make no sense when you [figure out gravity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit) is a 1/r^2 force. Like at all. What's the moon doing?  

    * Infer from the spherical shape of all the other celestial bodies, Moon, [Venus](https://i.imgur.com/9BXc1.jpg) (I took this picture myself), Jupiter, the Sun, the stars.  

    * You can [circumnavigate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_circumnavigations) the Earth.  

    * You can watch a [Foucault pendulum]() at different latitudes.  

    * Notice the Southern hemisphere's winter is our summer and vice versa.  

    * Ships sink below the horizon.
    Live Long and Prosper
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    edited June 9 Premium Member
    @agsr
    I'm going to do the rebuttals separately, some of these require more time and space.

    Ok, here we go. When I said I'd done two years of research, you didn't think I'd already run across these? Nearly every day was spent  (after a cup of Joe of course) looking for proof of a ball. You've probably picked up the help of a few globetards with cognitive dissonance that wave their hands at any proof thrown at them, and redirect me to their science books and calculators. They love words like "refraction" and "mirage" and their entire argument consist of but, but, muh maths! No disrespect, but please, for the love of God, don't be that guy.

    1. Globe earth proponents love the hundreds year old theoretical instances of so called proof. They cling to them like a story in the Bible. Errortosthanes was, quite frankly, an idiot. He also thought the earth was a ball (circumnavigation) because he'd seen elephants in the east (Indian) and again in the west (African). His experiment relies solely on a false premise. The distance to the sun. A close small sun will produce the same exact results over a flat surface. It's the very same proof as time zones.


    We can prove that the sun is close and small by simply looking up on any cloudy day.


    So again, the false premise is " the sun is so far away that it's rays are parallel when they reach the Earth"
    If you think those rays are parallel, then you probably failed geometry.


    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @agsr
    2. Once more, pictures from government organizations prove absolutely nothing to me, except when they are examined, that they are not to be trusted. 

    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    edited June 9 Premium Member
    @agsr

    3. More images 

    I think I've covered this extensively. Take that first image you provided and flip it upside down. Here, I'll just show you.







    This, "coincidentally " lines up with another subliminal message:


    Does this not call into question every image they've produced?  NASA makes over $50,000,000 a day. That's a big budget Hollywood movie everyday. People may think that images on a computer are proof of something, I'm not fooled. I'm calling 


    Epic indeed.
    ale5PowerPikachu21SilverishGoldNova
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • @Erfisflat

    Regarding the rays of the sun in that picture, this explains it well

    https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/154951/why-do-sunbeams-diverge-even-though-the-sun-is-much-more-than-a-few-kilometers-a

    Basically  they appear converging because we can see them so far out.

    Erfisflat
  • @Erfisflat

    Regarding " the sun is so far away that it's rays are parallel when they reach the Earth"

    I don't think that the idea is that rays have become parallel after traveling a large distance, but that the rays falling over comparitivelly large distances, say a mile,  on earth must have very little divergence even when they start from the surface of the sun.  Because even after traveling so far a distance, they have only diverged a mile...So they should be nearly parellel to begin with...



    Erfisflat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    edited July 3 Premium Member
    @Erfisflat

    Regarding the rays of the sun in that picture, this explains it well

    https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/154951/why-do-sunbeams-diverge-even-though-the-sun-is-much-more-than-a-few-kilometers-a

    Basically  they appear converging because we can see them so far out.

    Yes, scientism has recognized this very obvious, verifiable flaw in their model, and quickly concocted conjecture to try to refute the claim. It would seem, at first glance, that the matter is settled with perspective and converging parallel lines, but a closer look reveals an obvious difference, and proves the poster you referenced, a dunce in both the laws of perspective and geometry. The lines seen on the tracks are receding parallel lines going away from the eye.

    Whereas the crepuscular rays are not.



    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Erfisflat

    Regarding " the sun is so far away that it's rays are parallel when they reach the Earth"

    I don't think that the idea is that rays have become parallel after traveling a large distance, but that the rays falling over comparitivelly large distances, say a mile,  on earth must have very little divergence even when they start from the surface of the sun.  Because even after traveling so far a distance, they have only diverged a mile...So they should be nearly parellel to begin with...



    I'm guessing you're from Reddit. Welcome to debateisland! You should know that I've brought my case to Reddit and refuted most of the claims there, took an entire afternoon of my time, only to have every valid point deleted on the grounds that I was making it up. Needless to say I haven't been back.
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @agsr

    4. Lunar eclipses have been covered. 
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @agsr

    5. Errortosthanes has been covered. 
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @agsr
    6. Stars are close, like the sun. I've covered this. They follow the laws of perspective like everything else, and converge at the horizon. 

    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @agsr

    7. I've discussed the theory of gravity. 

    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @agsr
    8. I've covered circumnavigation. 

    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    edited June 9 Premium Member
    @agar

    9.Focaults pendulum 
    which is just a swinging ball on a cable that somehow convinced a bunch of people that the earth moves under it instead of the the obvious that the ball moves over the earth. What of the Allias effect, where the pendulum sometimes goes the opposite way or speeds up, is the earth changing directions or speed during an eclipse? If the earth actually rotated under a swinging ball as pseudoscience claims, there should be no good reason that i can't get in a hot air balloon, rise up a few hundred feet and wait for Paris to come to me for my vacation this year.
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @agsr ;

    10. Seasons

    I believe ive covered this before  but I can't seem to find it now. The sun is on a tighter circuit around the pole in our summer, and moves to a larger circuit during our winter. 
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • @Erfisflat Regarding you reply about suns rays, I don't think you have refuted it convincingly. In the image with yellow sun and yellow rays, the distances between where the rays fall on earth and the distance between the entry points (black ellispses), can be equal, but the entry points appear closer because they are far away. Another thing about how planes are not flying into space. It can be because of the air density. A horizontally moving airplane continues to drop in altitude to a point where the air density is the same, which happens to be a circle around the earth. Think about this. An airplane weighing say, 500 kg require a lift of 500 kg to stay afloat. We can say that lift is a function of air density, the planes speed and the angle of attack of the wings. Imagine our plane keeping speed and angle of attack of the wings the same. You are saying that the place should fly out into space. This does not happen because, when the plane gain altitude owing to the curvature of earth, say it gains a alt of 50 meters, it finds itself in an area of reduced air density, and is no longer getting a lift of 500kg. So it drops automatically until it is again in a belt of sufficient air density, that the lift is again 500 Kg. This process ends up making it maintain the same altitude as it fly around the earth..
    1Hacker0
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @crazyturtle

    About the sun, I'm I'm entirely sure what you're trying to say, the distances and measurements of the rays are largely irrelevant.  The angles are the point of the debate or the disagreement, your claim is an incoherent strawman, and I'm not sure what Air pressure and weight have to do with my point either. Please ellaborate, or maybe you shouldn't,  what's the highest grade you completed?
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

  • @Erfisflat

    Angles? Ok how did you measure the angle between two rays of sunlight coming through the cloud?

    >I'm not sure what Air pressure and weight have to do with my point either.

    Not air pressure. Air density. Why wont you properly read what I have written and think about it for a while before hurling insults back ...?
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 461 PtsPremium Member
    Premium Member
    @Erfisflat

    Angles? Ok how did you measure the angle between two rays of sunlight coming through the cloud?

    >I'm not sure what Air pressure and weight have to do with my point either.

    Not air pressure. Air density. Why wont you properly read what I have written and think about it for a while before hurling insults back ...?
    I measured the angles by... looking at the picture. ..these are parallel lines 


    We know these are receding parallel lines going away from us.


    As do these.


    There is nothing parallel or receding about these lines.

    I apologize if I insulted you by asking about your education. I'd like to know who I'm talking to. I still have no clue what Air density has to do with planes, out of necessity, traveling nose down.
    "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything." George Carlin 

    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

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