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Best Persuaded Content

  • Whatever happened murderer Kyle Rittenhouse?

    Last I heard, Kylie was suing the fake news press who slandered him by saying that he was a murderer.     Joseph should leave his name and address so that Kylie can add him to the list of defendents he intends to sue.

    Kylie will win his case in the same way that Nicholous Sandman won his damages case against the fake news press.     He got millions out of that.     Good on him.    Journalists are supposed to be journalists, not activists.
        



    just_sayinall4acttFactfinderJoeseph
  • Did God(s) Create Humans or Did Humans Create God(s)?

    @MayCaesar
    The guy you replied to meant that if a no npc in a game can be the creator of the game, then why would anyone in the universe be creator of the universe? The game developer made the game, the universe developer or God made the universe. The game dev is not in the game and not obliged by any rule of the game nor is God obliged by any rule of the universe. Since time is a rule of the universe, God isn't effected by time and is immortal. let me give you another example. You needed your parents to be born, your existence depends on your parents, and their existence depends on your grandparents, and theirs on your great grandparents and so on. This Cycle goes on forever and like this we would never exist, unless there was something that was uncreated, the thing whose existence is not dependent on anything or anyone else, something that has been around since the universe was created. What was the thing present before the creation of the universe? The creator of the universe, God, who we just learned is immortal, uncreated and uneffected by the laws of the universe. BTW, in 10 min it will be 3am. If I made any error or there is some problem in logic or anything, just point it out. I'll reply to it to explain better after getting some sleep.

    Edit: I'm new to debateisland.com and didn't know that if you do an edit to fix spelling and grammar errors then all reactions will disappear :( someone reacted that my argument was persuading, but its too late.
    just_sayinFactfinder
  • Is there good evidence for the resurrection of Jesus?

    MayCaesar said:
    @Factfinder

    On a philosophical level, it is quite interesting that the greatest fear a human has is that of the only inevitable event in his life: death. That humans have gone very far trying to either develop a "cure to mortality", or to convince themselves that death is merely the end of current stage of life and beginning of the new one, or to seek escape in mindfulness practices... While the most logical thing would be to accept it as inevitability and move on. In the Dune books Frank Herbert used the term "little death" to describe the metaphorical death of human soul resulting from inability to accept the real death: trying to escape it, to deny it is what leads to the actually frightening death.

    I have always had a simple philosophical perspective on it: since tens of billions of people and uncountable numbers of other living organisms have gone through death, it must be the most common experience on this planet. And fearing something that so many organisms have experienced and the conclusion of which is erasure of my consciousness which will make even reflecting on the fact that I died impossible - makes no sense. Death is certainly unpleasant, but it is nothing special: it is the natural end of everyone's journey. And, who knows, we know very little about how consciousness works and why... Perhaps the actual death experience is very different from what we expect it to be. Yet another curiosity to uncover! Not that I am planning to uncover it any time soon, if I can help it. :)

    Looking back at my life, the most painful experiences, in retrospect, were not even that bad. That seems to be the general flaw of human organism: we tend to fear things and blow them out of proportion, and when our fears do materialize, it turns out that we were afraid of ghosts. I remember my first ultramarathon when, after 14 hours of walking/running and consuming the equivalent of 20 cups of coffee, I found myself laying in the middle of field littered with rattlesnakes... Pretty much the bottom of human experience. Yet somehow I was fine, and looking back, I was actually on top of the world, extremely proud of myself. I think that we would all be much happier if we learned to accept that negative experiences, including the ultimate one - death - are integral parts of our journey and are interesting in themselves. Happier and, probably, more mortal. :D
    So, almost all of the witnesses of Jesus' resurrection were willing to be martyrs and tortured, because they feared the big death?  So they refused to change their story because they couldn't handle the idea of no more pain?  I just find that hard to believe - not that you are OK with dying, but that so many of the witnesses of the resurrection of Jesus would rather be tortured to death than deny what they had seen, if it were not true.  One thing that several of the Roman historians note about the early Christians is that they did not fear death.  This fact stood out to them and frustrated them.  Maybe there is another way to face death, even painful death, in a peaceful manner, that you have not thought much about. just sayin
    GiantMan
  • Are Homophobes Perverted?


    @just_sayin

    I'm a bit confused. How do the sexual health issues you raise support your argument that homosexuality is a sin? 

    As for my statement regarding perversion, it was a play on words, a way to play along and comment on @Bardardot's stance, which I would bluntly call nothing more than a reflection of language fu*cking! And this is regardless of whether he is intentionally mocking people with an aversion to gays or not; his argument is still a dumb one and does nothing productive. 

    Neither your nor @Bardardot's argument holds up to scrutiny. Both arguments are not based on evidence-based epistemology. They are void of knowledge that has been obtained objectively—that is, knowledge obtained through verifiable facts and empirical evidence.


    Bernie claimed that no one ever offers any reason for their objection for homosexuality.  I provided 2 lines of argumentation.  I did not say that because something is unhealthy it is automatically a sin.  I made 2 arguments.  

    You said my arguments don't hold up to scrutiny.  Please explain.  If you don't accept the religious tradition, fine, but it is a long held religious belief based on clear directions in the Bible given in response to sexual activity that deviates from the biblical teaching that sex is between a male and female within marriage.  I'm not asking you to agree with the biblical belief, only acknowledge that it is a reason that people give for their objection of same-sex relationships.

    The health issues are what they are.  Are you denying that LGBTQ+ people have several increased health risks?  On the debate main page right now is @Dreamer 's debate on if drinking causes cancer and how it should be sharply curtailed because of it.  We have debated mandating behaviors due to COVID.  So whether or not you would agree with restricting sexual practices due to health risks, the argument has been made.  Again, I'm not demanding you agree with the conclusion, just acknowledge that the argument has been made.

    There are many health studies on LGBTQ+ issues.  It would be hard to argue that there are no differences in health outcomes - especially regarding HIV, and certain cancers.  You don't think such evidence is empirical?
    GiantMan
  • Is there good evidence for the resurrection of Jesus?

    What do both Jesus' enemies and followers agree on about him?  The following are a list of things about Jesus that his enemies said about him that agree with what Jesus' followers said:

    Jesus was born and lived in Palestine. He was born, supposedly, to a virgin and had an earthly father who was a carpenter. He was a teacher who taught that through repentance and belief, all followers would become brothers and sisters. He led the Jews away from their beliefs. He was a wise man who claimed to be God and the Messiah. He had unusual magical powers and performed miraculous deeds. He healed the lame. He accurately predicted the future. He was persecuted by the Jews for what He said, betrayed by Judah Iskarioto. He was beaten with rods, forced to drink vinegar and wear a crown of thorns. He was crucified on the eve of the Passover and this crucifixion occurred under the direction of Pontius Pilate, during the time of Tiberius. On the day of His crucifixion, the sky grew dark and there was an earthquake. Afterward, He was buried in a tomb and the tomb was later found to be empty. He appeared to His disciples resurrected from the grave and showed them His wounds. These disciples then told others Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Jesus’ disciples and followers upheld a high moral code. One of them was named Matthai. The disciples were also persecuted for their faith but were martyred without changing their claims. They met regularly to worship Jesus, even after His death. - compiled in Cold Case Christianity

    Sources:
    Thallus
    Tacitus
    Mar Bar-Sarapion
    Phlegon
    Pliny the Younger
    Suetonius
    Lucian of Samosata
    Celsus
    Josephus
    Jewish Talmud
    The Toledot Yeshu
    GiantMan
  • Is there good evidence for the resurrection of Jesus?

    Atheists generally value reason and evidence over faith. The resurrection narrative requires accepting a supernatural explanation without empirical proof.  There are major discrepancies between the Gospel accounts of the resurrection, raising questions about their reliability:

    The Women at the Tomb:

    • Number: Mark mentions one woman (Mary Magdalene) while Matthew mentions several women visiting the tomb.
    • Encounter with the Angelic Being(s): Matthew describes one angel, Mark and Luke describe young men, and John has the women encountering two angels inside the tomb (after Peter and another disciple had already left).

    The Resurrected Jesus:

    • Location of Appearances: The Gospels differ on where Jesus first appeared after the resurrection. Mark and Luke have appearances in Jerusalem, while John places them primarily in Galilee.
    • Number of Appearances: The Gospels don't all agree on the number of appearances Jesus made.

    Additional Details:

    • Empty Tomb: While all Gospels depict an empty tomb, details of how the tomb was found open differ.
    • The Guards: Matthew is the only Gospel mentioning Roman guards stationed at the tomb.
    • The Ascension: The timing of Jesus' ascension to heaven also differs. Luke describes it happening on the same day as the resurrection, while Acts places it 40 days later.

    Obviously, the stories are not divinely inspired or historically accurate.



    Sigh.  I'll give a plausible explanation for the so called 'discrepancies' in a moment, but first a note.  The minimal core evidence I have mentioned is regarded by the vast bulk of historians as actual historical events.  Even if there were actual discrepancies in the gospels, it would not invalidate the minimal core I have focused on.

    The gospels don't say 'only' one woman was here.  In fact over 6 total women across the gospels are identified.  Just like if you had a police report, the accounts would not all contain the same details.  The focus on Mary Magdalene  in Mark is because she was the first witness (it does not exclude other women having gone to the tomb).  The general sequence of events is:
    a) The women left before sunrise to travel the 2 miles to the tomb from Bethany
    b) On the way the sun arose and the women arrive at the tomb and find it empty and see the angels
    c) The women run back to tell the disciples - Mary to see Peter and John who were staying with John's friend in Jerusalem and the other women back to Bethany.
    d) Peter and John and Mary arrive at the tomb first, while Peter and John go into the tomb, Mary encounters Jesus

    The number of angels is not problematic.  The text does not exclude more than one angel.  The one angel is mentioned because that angel made the announcement.  Again, you have to examine the documents in the way that ancient mid-eastern people would have related the story - your AI is programmed for Western thought  patterns, and these accounts are not western.  The writers focused only on details that related to the point they were trying to make.  

    Matthew mentioning guards is not problematic.  In eyewitness testimony, detectives will tell you that one witness will mention one detail, while another may mention another detail not mentioned by the others.  Rather than reduce authenticity, the accounts actually have a ring of true accounts.

    There is no 'this happened the same day' clause in Luke.  In fact, Luke, who wrote the sequel to his gospel, Acts, which deals with what the Apostles did after Jesus when up into heaven said:

    In my first book I told you, Theophilus, about everything Jesus began to do and teach until the day he was taken up to heaven after giving his chosen apostles further instructions through the Holy Spirit. During the forty days after he suffered and died, he appeared to the apostles from time to time, and he proved to them in many ways that he was actually alive. And he talked to them about the Kingdom of God. Acts 1:1-3

    An AI would have to intentionally misrepresent Luke to make such a conclusion as you mentioned.  Further, John mentions post resurrection appearances both in Jerusalem and Galilee which happened over the 40 day period.  There is no discrepancy.  

    GiantMan
  • Is there good evidence for the resurrection of Jesus?

    The evidence for the resurrection provides good reasons to believe it happened

    1)  Early attestation - the Christian creed found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 - is dated no later than 18 months after the resurrection. This is an incredibly early attestation for an event in antiquity.  It says:

    I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said.  He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said. He was seen by Peter and then by the Twelve.  After that, he was seen by more than 500 of his followers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. Then he was seen by James and later by all the apostles.

    It states Jesus was raised from the dead on the 3rd day and it identifies witnesses of the resurrection.  We have the eye witness testimony of Peter, some of the apostles, and James as corroborating sources.

    2) Multiple sources - There are at least 12 sources for the crucifixion of Jesus, with half of the sources being enemies of Jesus and Christianity.  Eye witness accounts also have multiple attestations.  The gospel accounts identify many eyewitnesses, while accounts in Matthew, John, James, 1 Peter provide personal eyewitness accounts.  

    Early church fathers corroborate the eye witness accounts.  Church fathers such as Clement, Polycarp and Irenaeus who knew the apostles confirm that they did indeed claim that Jesus rose from the dead.  Further, there are several sources from Jesus' enemies which corroborate that the followers of Jesus believed he rose from the dead.

    3) Historical accuracy - the eye witness accounts portray crucifixion, and burial in historically accurate ways.  Further, the the details of Jesus' crucifixion match medical evidence of what a crucifixion would have been like.  

    4) Embarrassing elements - All four gospels mention that women were the first witnesses.  In the culture of the day, women were not considered reliable witnesses.  A fabricated story would not have had women as the first witnesses.  Further the gospels all record that the disciples ran away on the night Jesus was arrested.  These embarrassing events suggest that the accounts are about a real event.

    5)  Lots of facts are provided that could have been verified:  1) Jesus was buried in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb.  He was a Pharisee and a member of the Sanhedrin - he would have obviously have been known.  The same goes for Nicodemus who was also a member of the Sanhedrin who assisted in the burial of Jesus.  2)  Lots of names are mentioned in the accounts - Mary Magdalene, Clopas, Peter, John, Thomas, James, Mattias, etc.  Further, many of the names mentioned corroborated the accounts we have. 

    To believe the atheist -
    1)we must dismiss numerous eye witness accounts - both from Jesus' friends and enemies. 
    2) Believe that all the preserved accounts are false even though they were written from many different people in many different locations. 
    3) Believe that embarrassing details that would not have benefited the spread of the story were made up and included anyway. 
    4) Believe that the well known people named were part of the plot to lie about the event. 
    5) Believe that the witnesses who said Jesus was resurrected allowed themselves and in some instances, their families, to be martyred, to preserve the lie.

    I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist.  
    GiantMan
  • Are Homophobes Perverted?

    Several religious traditions associate same sex relationships with sin.  

    For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. - Romans 1:26 - 28
    Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

    For the same reason that certain other sexual practices are deemed sin, same-sex sex is considered a sin by the Bible.

    Often not discussed are the serious health issues that are associated with same sex relationships.  These are often hidden and downplayed due to to LGBTQ+ status as a minority group:  From the National Library of Medicine:

    homosexual activity may be associated with a lifespan shortened by 20 to 30 years.

    From Health

    Here is a list of increased health risks

    1) Increased risk of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.  Adolescent and adult gay and bisexual men made up 68% of new HIV diagnoses in the United States in 2018.

    Gay and bisexual men are also at a higher risk for other STIs than others. Chlamydia, syphilis, and gonorrhea also significantly increase the risk of getting or transmitting HIV.

    Additionally, some evidence suggests that LGBTQ+ people are more likely to have the human papillomavirus virus (HPV). Gay, bisexual, and MSM are 20 times more likely than heterosexual men to develop anal cancer (Patel P, Bush T, Kojic EM, et al. Prevalence, Incidence, and Clearance of Anal High-Risk Human Papillomavirus Infection Among HIV-Infected Men in the SUN StudyJ Infect Dis. 2018;217(6):953-963. doi:10.1093/infdis/jix607)

     Certain strains of HPV cause anal cancer. Also, some strains of HPV are the cause of cervical cancer. But it's also a risk factor for anogenital cancers. HPV also links to head and neck malignancies due to transmission of the virus via oral sex.

    2) HIgher rates of partner violence

    3) Substance Abuse

    Research has found that people who identify as lesbian or gay are more than twice as likely as people who identify as heterosexual to abuse alcohol or tobacco. And people who identify as bisexual are three times as likely.(Boyd CJ, Veliz PT, Stephenson R, Hughes TL, McCabe SE. Severity of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Drug Use Disorders Among Sexual Minority Individuals and Their "Not Sure" CounterpartsLGBT Health. 2019;6(1):15-22. doi:10.1089/lgbt.2018.0122)

    4) Greater Risk of Mental Health Conditions

    5) Greater Risk of Obesity and Eating Disorders

    Research has found that bisexual and lesbian women were more likely to be overweight or obese than women who identify as heterosexual.

    6) Increased Risk of Breast and Cervical Cancer

    7) Heart Disease

    Research has found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults have a higher risk of heart disease and other cardiac problems than others. 

    I don't think talking about how God views same sex relationships and the health risks of same-sex makes one 'perverted'.  It may offend some though.


    You see, @Barnardo, this is exactly why your argument is perverted. Of course, @just_saying's argument isn't any different. Hey, I guess we could call this perversion metastasis! 
    I don't see how the views are 'perverted'.  The religious views you may disagree with if you have other religious values.  The health issues are the health issues.  Surely you aren't suggesting that we keep the health risks hidden from people are you?  
    That's because you miss the point. The views whether they be homophobic, or homosexual, are diametrically opposed so it makes sense for the two to try and avoid the other when possible; but that in no way endorses one over the other. And in no way is one perverse and the other not. It is what it is and that it.
    I don't agree.  I think it is possible to be a homosexual and acknowledge  there are increased health issues.  I  believe there are people all the time who live a life that is not in agreement with the faith they profess.  
    So what are you calling perverse? That's the debate. Are homophobics perverse?
    In @Barnarot 's initial post he said no one ever gives reasons about objections to homosexuality.  I provided him with 2 different types of reasons people do indeed give.  Now Bernie was just doing it to try and make quick points based on a false premise and smear people who don't agree with his viewpoint.  

    Perverse is a moral term - it makes the most sense in moral argument's such as religious ones.  Now I will admit though, after reading that the LGBTQ+ lifestyle cuts the average person's lifespan by 20 to 30 years - that the health issues could be viewed from a moral lens also.  Though, I'd personally classify them as health issues related to the lifestyle.  
    GiantMan
  • What are the "religious tenets" of the "faith" of Atheism?

    MayCaesar said:
    @just_sayin

    Well, I do not know about that. When you posted Penrose's argument, I took a couple of hours to dive deep into it and somewhat understand all the equations, hoping that you have done the same... Then I learned that you do not even understand the central claim of the Big Bang Theory, let alone the mathematical apparatus behind Penrose's argument. I am open to the idea that my understanding is severely lacking, but you are unlikely to be the one to demonstrate it to me. ;)
    May,  I'll remind you that when you claimed I took Penrose's calculation of the odds of the low entropy of the initial conditions of the big bang you said I made it up, and I provided you with at least 5 pages of his work to show I had not taken him out of context.  

    I'll make a general observation.  You have spent more time in telling us how much you know about math and science, than in sharing any math and science in support of your points.  I encourage you to add some to your debate points.  
    GiantMan
  • Are Homophobes Perverted?

    Several religious traditions associate same sex relationships with sin.  

    For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. - Romans 1:26 - 28
    Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

    For the same reason that certain other sexual practices are deemed sin, same-sex sex is considered a sin by the Bible.

    Often not discussed are the serious health issues that are associated with same sex relationships.  These are often hidden and downplayed due to to LGBTQ+ status as a minority group:  From the National Library of Medicine:

    homosexual activity may be associated with a lifespan shortened by 20 to 30 years.

    From Health

    Here is a list of increased health risks

    1) Increased risk of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.  Adolescent and adult gay and bisexual men made up 68% of new HIV diagnoses in the United States in 2018.

    Gay and bisexual men are also at a higher risk for other STIs than others. Chlamydia, syphilis, and gonorrhea also significantly increase the risk of getting or transmitting HIV.

    Additionally, some evidence suggests that LGBTQ+ people are more likely to have the human papillomavirus virus (HPV). Gay, bisexual, and MSM are 20 times more likely than heterosexual men to develop anal cancer (Patel P, Bush T, Kojic EM, et al. Prevalence, Incidence, and Clearance of Anal High-Risk Human Papillomavirus Infection Among HIV-Infected Men in the SUN StudyJ Infect Dis. 2018;217(6):953-963. doi:10.1093/infdis/jix607)

     Certain strains of HPV cause anal cancer. Also, some strains of HPV are the cause of cervical cancer. But it's also a risk factor for anogenital cancers. HPV also links to head and neck malignancies due to transmission of the virus via oral sex.

    2) HIgher rates of partner violence

    3) Substance Abuse

    Research has found that people who identify as lesbian or gay are more than twice as likely as people who identify as heterosexual to abuse alcohol or tobacco. And people who identify as bisexual are three times as likely.(Boyd CJ, Veliz PT, Stephenson R, Hughes TL, McCabe SE. Severity of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Drug Use Disorders Among Sexual Minority Individuals and Their "Not Sure" CounterpartsLGBT Health. 2019;6(1):15-22. doi:10.1089/lgbt.2018.0122)

    4) Greater Risk of Mental Health Conditions

    5) Greater Risk of Obesity and Eating Disorders

    Research has found that bisexual and lesbian women were more likely to be overweight or obese than women who identify as heterosexual.

    6) Increased Risk of Breast and Cervical Cancer

    7) Heart Disease

    Research has found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults have a higher risk of heart disease and other cardiac problems than others. 

    I don't think talking about how God views same sex relationships and the health risks of same-sex makes one 'perverted'.  It may offend some though.


    You see, @Barnardo, this is exactly why your argument is perverted. Of course, @just_saying's argument isn't any different. Hey, I guess we could call this perversion metastasis! 
    I don't see how the views are 'perverted'.  The religious views you may disagree with if you have other religious values.  The health issues are the health issues.  Surely you aren't suggesting that we keep the health risks hidden from people are you?  
    That's because you miss the point. The views whether they be homophobic, or homosexual, are diametrically opposed so it makes sense for the two to try and avoid the other when possible; but that in no way endorses one over the other. And in no way is one perverse and the other not. It is what it is and that it.
    I don't agree.  I think it is possible to be a homosexual and acknowledge  there are increased health issues.  I  believe there are people all the time who live a life that is not in agreement with the faith they profess.  
    GiantMan

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