So, almost all of the witnesses of Jesus' resurrection were willing to be martyrs and tortured, because they feared the big death? So they refused to change their story because they couldn't handle the idea of no more pain? I just find that hard to believe - not that you are OK with dying, but that so many of the witnesses of the resurrection of Jesus would rather be tortured to death than deny what they had seen, if it were not true. One thing that several of the Roman historians note about the early Christians is that they did not fear death. This fact stood out to them and frustrated them. Maybe there is another way to face death, even painful death, in a peaceful manner, that you have not thought much about. just sayinMayCaesar said:@Factfinder
On a philosophical level, it is quite interesting that the greatest fear a human has is that of the only inevitable event in his life: death. That humans have gone very far trying to either develop a "cure to mortality", or to convince themselves that death is merely the end of current stage of life and beginning of the new one, or to seek escape in mindfulness practices... While the most logical thing would be to accept it as inevitability and move on. In the Dune books Frank Herbert used the term "little death" to describe the metaphorical death of human soul resulting from inability to accept the real death: trying to escape it, to deny it is what leads to the actually frightening death.
I have always had a simple philosophical perspective on it: since tens of billions of people and uncountable numbers of other living organisms have gone through death, it must be the most common experience on this planet. And fearing something that so many organisms have experienced and the conclusion of which is erasure of my consciousness which will make even reflecting on the fact that I died impossible - makes no sense. Death is certainly unpleasant, but it is nothing special: it is the natural end of everyone's journey. And, who knows, we know very little about how consciousness works and why... Perhaps the actual death experience is very different from what we expect it to be. Yet another curiosity to uncover! Not that I am planning to uncover it any time soon, if I can help it.
Looking back at my life, the most painful experiences, in retrospect, were not even that bad. That seems to be the general flaw of human organism: we tend to fear things and blow them out of proportion, and when our fears do materialize, it turns out that we were afraid of ghosts. I remember my first ultramarathon when, after 14 hours of walking/running and consuming the equivalent of 20 cups of coffee, I found myself laying in the middle of field littered with rattlesnakes... Pretty much the bottom of human experience. Yet somehow I was fine, and looking back, I was actually on top of the world, extremely proud of myself. I think that we would all be much happier if we learned to accept that negative experiences, including the ultimate one - death - are integral parts of our journey and are interesting in themselves. Happier and, probably, more mortal.
Bernie claimed that no one ever offers any reason for their objection for homosexuality. I provided 2 lines of argumentation. I did not say that because something is unhealthy it is automatically a sin. I made 2 arguments.ZeusAres42 said:I'm a bit confused. How do the sexual health issues you raise support your argument that homosexuality is a sin?
As for my statement regarding perversion, it was a play on words, a way to play along and comment on @Bardardot's stance, which I would bluntly call nothing more than a reflection of language fu*cking! And this is regardless of whether he is intentionally mocking people with an aversion to gays or not; his argument is still a dumb one and does nothing productive.
Neither your nor @Bardardot's argument holds up to scrutiny. Both arguments are not based on evidence-based epistemology. They are void of knowledge that has been obtained objectively—that is, knowledge obtained through verifiable facts and empirical evidence.
Jesus was born and lived in Palestine. He was born, supposedly, to a virgin and had an earthly father who was a carpenter. He was a teacher who taught that through repentance and belief, all followers would become brothers and sisters. He led the Jews away from their beliefs. He was a wise man who claimed to be God and the Messiah. He had unusual magical powers and performed miraculous deeds. He healed the lame. He accurately predicted the future. He was persecuted by the Jews for what He said, betrayed by Judah Iskarioto. He was beaten with rods, forced to drink vinegar and wear a crown of thorns. He was crucified on the eve of the Passover and this crucifixion occurred under the direction of Pontius Pilate, during the time of Tiberius. On the day of His crucifixion, the sky grew dark and there was an earthquake. Afterward, He was buried in a tomb and the tomb was later found to be empty. He appeared to His disciples resurrected from the grave and showed them His wounds. These disciples then told others Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Jesus’ disciples and followers upheld a high moral code. One of them was named Matthai. The disciples were also persecuted for their faith but were martyred without changing their claims. They met regularly to worship Jesus, even after His death. - compiled in Cold Case Christianity
Sigh. I'll give a plausible explanation for the so called 'discrepancies' in a moment, but first a note. The minimal core evidence I have mentioned is regarded by the vast bulk of historians as actual historical events. Even if there were actual discrepancies in the gospels, it would not invalidate the minimal core I have focused on.JulesKorngold said:Atheists generally value reason and evidence over faith. The resurrection narrative requires accepting a supernatural explanation without empirical proof. There are major discrepancies between the Gospel accounts of the resurrection, raising questions about their reliability:The Women at the Tomb:
- Number: Mark mentions one woman (Mary Magdalene) while Matthew mentions several women visiting the tomb.
- Encounter with the Angelic Being(s): Matthew describes one angel, Mark and Luke describe young men, and John has the women encountering two angels inside the tomb (after Peter and another disciple had already left).
The Resurrected Jesus:
- Location of Appearances: The Gospels differ on where Jesus first appeared after the resurrection. Mark and Luke have appearances in Jerusalem, while John places them primarily in Galilee.
- Number of Appearances: The Gospels don't all agree on the number of appearances Jesus made.
Additional Details:
- Empty Tomb: While all Gospels depict an empty tomb, details of how the tomb was found open differ.
- The Guards: Matthew is the only Gospel mentioning Roman guards stationed at the tomb.
- The Ascension: The timing of Jesus' ascension to heaven also differs. Luke describes it happening on the same day as the resurrection, while Acts places it 40 days later.
Obviously, the stories are not divinely inspired or historically accurate.
In my first book I told you, Theophilus, about everything Jesus began to do and teach until the day he was taken up to heaven after giving his chosen apostles further instructions through the Holy Spirit. During the forty days after he suffered and died, he appeared to the apostles from time to time, and he proved to them in many ways that he was actually alive. And he talked to them about the Kingdom of God. Acts 1:1-3
In @Barnarot 's initial post he said no one ever gives reasons about objections to homosexuality. I provided him with 2 different types of reasons people do indeed give. Now Bernie was just doing it to try and make quick points based on a false premise and smear people who don't agree with his viewpoint.Factfinder said:So what are you calling perverse? That's the debate. Are homophobics perverse?just_sayin said:I don't agree. I think it is possible to be a homosexual and acknowledge there are increased health issues. I believe there are people all the time who live a life that is not in agreement with the faith they profess.Factfinder said:That's because you miss the point. The views whether they be homophobic, or homosexual, are diametrically opposed so it makes sense for the two to try and avoid the other when possible; but that in no way endorses one over the other. And in no way is one perverse and the other not. It is what it is and that it.just_sayin said:I don't see how the views are 'perverted'. The religious views you may disagree with if you have other religious values. The health issues are the health issues. Surely you aren't suggesting that we keep the health risks hidden from people are you?ZeusAres42 said:just_sayin said:Several religious traditions associate same sex relationships with sin.For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. - Romans 1:26 - 28Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
For the same reason that certain other sexual practices are deemed sin, same-sex sex is considered a sin by the Bible.Often not discussed are the serious health issues that are associated with same sex relationships. These are often hidden and downplayed due to to LGBTQ+ status as a minority group: From the National Library of Medicine:
homosexual activity may be associated with a lifespan shortened by 20 to 30 years.From Health
Here is a list of increased health risks
1) Increased risk of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV. Adolescent and adult gay and bisexual men made up 68% of new HIV diagnoses in the United States in 2018.
Gay and bisexual men are also at a higher risk for other STIs than others. Chlamydia, syphilis, and gonorrhea also significantly increase the risk of getting or transmitting HIV.
Additionally, some evidence suggests that LGBTQ+ people are more likely to have the human papillomavirus virus (HPV). Gay, bisexual, and MSM are 20 times more likely than heterosexual men to develop anal cancer (Patel P, Bush T, Kojic EM, et al. Prevalence, Incidence, and Clearance of Anal High-Risk Human Papillomavirus Infection Among HIV-Infected Men in the SUN Study. J Infect Dis. 2018;217(6):953-963. doi:10.1093/infdis/jix607)
Certain strains of HPV cause anal cancer. Also, some strains of HPV are the cause of cervical cancer. But it's also a risk factor for anogenital cancers. HPV also links to head and neck malignancies due to transmission of the virus via oral sex.
2) HIgher rates of partner violence
3) Substance Abuse
Research has found that people who identify as lesbian or gay are more than twice as likely as people who identify as heterosexual to abuse alcohol or tobacco. And people who identify as bisexual are three times as likely.(Boyd CJ, Veliz PT, Stephenson R, Hughes TL, McCabe SE. Severity of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Drug Use Disorders Among Sexual Minority Individuals and Their "Not Sure" Counterparts. LGBT Health. 2019;6(1):15-22. doi:10.1089/lgbt.2018.0122)
4) Greater Risk of Mental Health Conditions
5) Greater Risk of Obesity and Eating Disorders
Research has found that bisexual and lesbian women were more likely to be overweight or obese than women who identify as heterosexual.
6) Increased Risk of Breast and Cervical Cancer
7) Heart Disease
Research has found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults have a higher risk of heart disease and other cardiac problems than others.
I don't think talking about how God views same sex relationships and the health risks of same-sex makes one 'perverted'. It may offend some though.
You see, @Barnardo, this is exactly why your argument is perverted. Of course, @just_saying's argument isn't any different. Hey, I guess we could call this perversion metastasis!
May, I'll remind you that when you claimed I took Penrose's calculation of the odds of the low entropy of the initial conditions of the big bang you said I made it up, and I provided you with at least 5 pages of his work to show I had not taken him out of context.MayCaesar said:@just_sayin
Well, I do not know about that. When you posted Penrose's argument, I took a couple of hours to dive deep into it and somewhat understand all the equations, hoping that you have done the same... Then I learned that you do not even understand the central claim of the Big Bang Theory, let alone the mathematical apparatus behind Penrose's argument. I am open to the idea that my understanding is severely lacking, but you are unlikely to be the one to demonstrate it to me.
I don't agree. I think it is possible to be a homosexual and acknowledge there are increased health issues. I believe there are people all the time who live a life that is not in agreement with the faith they profess.Factfinder said:That's because you miss the point. The views whether they be homophobic, or homosexual, are diametrically opposed so it makes sense for the two to try and avoid the other when possible; but that in no way endorses one over the other. And in no way is one perverse and the other not. It is what it is and that it.just_sayin said:I don't see how the views are 'perverted'. The religious views you may disagree with if you have other religious values. The health issues are the health issues. Surely you aren't suggesting that we keep the health risks hidden from people are you?ZeusAres42 said:just_sayin said:Several religious traditions associate same sex relationships with sin.For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. - Romans 1:26 - 28Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
For the same reason that certain other sexual practices are deemed sin, same-sex sex is considered a sin by the Bible.Often not discussed are the serious health issues that are associated with same sex relationships. These are often hidden and downplayed due to to LGBTQ+ status as a minority group: From the National Library of Medicine:
homosexual activity may be associated with a lifespan shortened by 20 to 30 years.From Health
Here is a list of increased health risks
1) Increased risk of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV. Adolescent and adult gay and bisexual men made up 68% of new HIV diagnoses in the United States in 2018.
Gay and bisexual men are also at a higher risk for other STIs than others. Chlamydia, syphilis, and gonorrhea also significantly increase the risk of getting or transmitting HIV.
Additionally, some evidence suggests that LGBTQ+ people are more likely to have the human papillomavirus virus (HPV). Gay, bisexual, and MSM are 20 times more likely than heterosexual men to develop anal cancer (Patel P, Bush T, Kojic EM, et al. Prevalence, Incidence, and Clearance of Anal High-Risk Human Papillomavirus Infection Among HIV-Infected Men in the SUN Study. J Infect Dis. 2018;217(6):953-963. doi:10.1093/infdis/jix607)
Certain strains of HPV cause anal cancer. Also, some strains of HPV are the cause of cervical cancer. But it's also a risk factor for anogenital cancers. HPV also links to head and neck malignancies due to transmission of the virus via oral sex.
2) HIgher rates of partner violence
3) Substance Abuse
Research has found that people who identify as lesbian or gay are more than twice as likely as people who identify as heterosexual to abuse alcohol or tobacco. And people who identify as bisexual are three times as likely.(Boyd CJ, Veliz PT, Stephenson R, Hughes TL, McCabe SE. Severity of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Drug Use Disorders Among Sexual Minority Individuals and Their "Not Sure" Counterparts. LGBT Health. 2019;6(1):15-22. doi:10.1089/lgbt.2018.0122)
4) Greater Risk of Mental Health Conditions
5) Greater Risk of Obesity and Eating Disorders
Research has found that bisexual and lesbian women were more likely to be overweight or obese than women who identify as heterosexual.
6) Increased Risk of Breast and Cervical Cancer
7) Heart Disease
Research has found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults have a higher risk of heart disease and other cardiac problems than others.
I don't think talking about how God views same sex relationships and the health risks of same-sex makes one 'perverted'. It may offend some though.
You see, @Barnardo, this is exactly why your argument is perverted. Of course, @just_saying's argument isn't any different. Hey, I guess we could call this perversion metastasis!