Black Americans are only 13% of the population but commit 55% of the crimes why is that

MayCaesar

Culture primarily. If you go to most "black neighborhoods", you will hear rap songs blasting around glorifying drug use, mistreatment of women, opposing cops and the "white man", see teens walking around and playing basketball all day instead of studying, see trash laying around that nobody cares to pick up...

High culture takes decades, perhaps centuries, to grow, and it requires dedication and persistent work of hard thinkers - that themselves do not appear out of nowhere, but emerge from pre-existing culture. Look at the history of Europe: before the renaissance there was a millennium of darkness, religious and monarchic tyranny and widespread ignorance. A peasant from the 1150 France could not care less about these things: he had to work all day on a farm to survive, and pass out in a local bar in the evening to cope with the stress.

"Black communities" in the US have simply never had that. Up until recently they were not allowed into the so-called civilized circles, and when the allowance was granted, the absence of its history made sure that most black people would not take advantage of that.

A good example of that among white people is Eastern Europe: Belarus, Russia, Ukraine... You see the same thing there: widespread crime, trash laying around, corrupt cops, songs glorifying crime and mistreatment of women. Go to Moscow and walk 500 meters away from the downtown - and you will see an absolute disaster, with regular people peeing on the streets, throwing cigarettes on the sidewalks, spitting everywhere they look. Why? Similar history: slavery in those regions was ended at about the same time as in the US, yet the freed slaves were never taken seriously by the higher society. Then the communists came and destroyed said higher society, and the children of the serfs had no cultural guidance - except for the party made up of the same uncultured people as them. And when the Soviet Union collapsed and even the party's guidance was gone, all hell broke loose.

That is my explanation, at any rate. I am by no means in favor of things like apartheid or class system - however, the historical reality is such that those who used to hold power in the society tended to champion high cultural values, since they were the only ones having the quality of life allowing them to care about those. And the groups that for whatever reason never had those values bestowed to them from those above never developed them. This is how in virtually every country you see subpopulations living very different lives. In France the descendants of Parisian nobles live very different lives than most gypsies - and it is not because gypsies have some kind of genetic predisposition to living like they do, but because historically gypsies and Parisians never closely interacted.

just_sayin

The color of skin does not cause crime.  There are several factors that increase the likelihood of someone committing a crime.  A primary one is coming from a single parent home.  Sources sited on Wikipedia:

In 1992, 47% of African-American families had an incipient nuclear family in comparison to 54% of all US incipient nuclear families.[22] The African-American simple nuclear family structure has been defined as a married couple with children.[20] This is the traditional norm for the composition of African-American families.[23] In 1992 25% of African-American families were simple nuclear families in comparison to 36% of all US families.[22] About 67 percent of black children are born into a single parent household.[24]

The African-American segmented nuclear I (unmarried mother and children) and II (unmarried father and children) family structures are defined as a parent–child relationship.[20] In 1992, 94% of African-American segmented nuclear families were composed of an unmarried mother and children.[22] Glick's research found that single parent families are twice as prevalent in African-American families as they are in other races, and this gap continues to widen.[21]

The effects of single-mother and single-father families on youth crime: Examining five gender-related hypotheses

found that coming from a single parent home significantly increased the likelihood that someone would commit a crime, especially coming from a single mother household.  

Data suggests 72 percent of adolescent murderers and 70 percent of long-term prison inmates come from fatherless homes.  The risk increases no matter the race.

Other factors also play a part - if someone is in a high crime neighborhood, the likelihood of them committing a crime increases.  If someone in their family went to prison, there is an increase in the likelihood that they will also commit a crime.  

Another factor is religious practice.  50 plus studies have shown that the more religiously active a community or individual is the less his/her/its crime rate is.  An example can be found in 

No Time For Crime: Study Finds More Religious Communities Have Lower Rates Of Black, White and Latino Violence and

Religiosity and Criminality: Evidence and Explanations of Complex Relationships

jack

P2Chompy said:

Black Americans are only 13% of the population but commit 55% of the crimes why is that

Hello P:

Nahhh..  Pure and simple, the justice system is racist. 

excon

RickeyHoltsclaw

@P2Chompy ; I policed some of the Nation's most violent Black neighborhoods in Houston, TX in my 31-year career with the Houston PD and counseled Black inmates in the Texas Department of Corrections. The most significant causation for Black crime is the absence of a Godly male role model, a father, in Black households where 70% of those homes are absent a Daddy and where there are multiple children in a Black home there is overwhelmingly multiple fathers who are not accountable to the mother or the children.

Second, would be absence of Biblical values in Black inner-city homes...the "Mom" is often addicted to drugs, alcohol, and has made herself a welfare whore. The older daughter is often times responsible for the siblings and most live in filth and degeneracy. Democrat welfare polices have engendered single parent households by paying a single mother increased allotments for each child she is raising absent a father.

Third, would be the easy access to mind altering drugs and peer pressure to engage in drug use and gang activity that becomes a surrogate "family." There is no respect for self or for others or for life...moral relativism abounds, sexual disease and mental illness are pervasive and no one cares. The Democrat Party has destroyed Black culture in America subsequent 1964.

just_sayin

jack said:

P2Chompy said:

Black Americans are only 13% of the population but commit 55% of the crimes why is that

Hello P:

Nahhh..  Pure and simple, the justice system is racist. 

excon

If you are going to claim the justice system is systemically racist then you should identify what system is the racist one.  We know from 40 years of FBI records that eye witness accounts of the race of the perpetrator match closely with the convicted criminal's actual race.  Are you claiming that Black people are more likely to lie about the race of the person who committed a crime against them?  Since the vast majority of crime committed against Black people is committed by other Black people, it sounds like you could be accusing Black people of lying.  Maybe you are accusing Black people of being more likely to snitch and report a crime.  Is that what you are doing?  Maybe you are saying that white people are better at hiding dead bodies than Black people.  Is that were the systemic racism is?

A lot of evidence argues against police and the courts being prejudiced against Blacks.  
a) Peter Moskos of John Jay College of Criminal Justice at CUNY. Moskos found that “Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police. Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed, whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.”

b) According to a study based on reviews of police records for Boston, Camden, Austin, Dallas, Houston, Los Angeles, and six Florida counties by Roland G. Fryer J. An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force. Journal of Political Economy. found:

“Blacks are 23.5 percent less likely to be shot by police, relative to whites, in an interaction”

c) Another study that found no evidence of systemic racism in use of lethal force among police was Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings, PNAS. It concluded:

We did not find evidence for anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparity in police use of force across all shootings, and, if anything, found anti-White disparities when controlling for race-specific crime.

d) Even the way-left-leaning Center for Policing Equity. See See https://policingequity.org/images/pdfs-doc/CPE_SoJ_Race-Arrests-UoF_2016-07-08-1130.pdf. You have to dig deep into pages 20 and 21 to see that police are 42% less likely to use lethal force when arresting black people than when arresting whites and police are 59% less likely to use lethal force when arresting blacks for serious violent crimes than when arresting whites for serious violent crimes. Check it out though.

e) Another study Is There Evidence of Racial Disparity in Police Use of Deadly Force? Analyses of Officer-Involved Fatal Shootings in 2015–2016, by Cesario, Johnson, Terrill. It found:

“Exposure to police given crime rate differences likely accounts for the higher per capita rate of fatal police shootings for Blacks, at least when analyzing all shootings."

RickeyHoltsclaw

@just_sayin @Jack ; Yes, the system is "racist" today due Progressive insanity via DEI and Affirmative Action...Whites and Asians are the ones discriminated against.

Bogan

The reasons are, because the most common IQ's among Africans is roughly 15 IQ points below the most common IQ scores of white Europeans, which have slightly lower most common {mean} IQ's of Asians.    In addition, Africans and some other races (Pacific Islanders) have a genetic propensity to violent behaviour (which is usually legally proscribed behaviour) at a much higher level than for other races.       Criminologists (at least the non socialist ones) no longer link poverty to crime.      They know that there are very poor communities in the world where crime is almost non existent.      There is however, an obvious and proven causal link between crime and low intelligence, and crime and welfare.        The link between welfare and crime is so strong that it could be validly claimed that welfare causes crime.        

This is why some races are always dysfunctional within whichever advanced western society they choose to barge into in order to avail themselves of the white man's welfare.   Importing these troublesome races into advanced societies is exactly the same as importing a bull into a China shop.       Unfortunately, western people today have become so hyper sensitive to racism that they refuse to look the facts in the face.    This unhappy situation will continue until they run out of excuses and stop virtue signaling by blaming themselves for the shortcomings of others.      

jack

P2Chompy said:

I have been wondering this for a while now and would love to hear your takes.

Hello P:

It's a typical straw man..  Post a lie, and then discuss it as though it were true..  It warrants no discussion at all.

excon

Factfinder

Snap shot behind the numbers.

https://nonprofitquarterly.org/report-exposes-the-fallacies-of-black-criminality/?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwtZK1BhDuARIsAAy2VzuHswKUbDKXpThAW0xB-ViSNTSp8VAFg6m5Fe4YfNXEicnW3kbAjEMaAu4nEALw_wcB

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

Snap shot behind the numbers.

https://nonprofitquarterly.org/report-exposes-the-fallacies-of-black-criminality/?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwtZK1BhDuARIsAAy2VzuHswKUbDKXpThAW0xB-ViSNTSp8VAFg6m5Fe4YfNXEicnW3kbAjEMaAu4nEALw_wcB

Help me to understand your links rationale.  First they claim The FBI’s Uniform Crime Report, “considered the official measure of the national crime rate” is one that “has always emphasized street crime to the exclusion of organized and white-collar crime.”  While that is true, the FBI's report is specifically on violent crimes.  Why did your source feel the need to redefine the definition of violent crimes that have been used for 40 plus years?   Even this rationale though, fails to explain why the percentage of Blacks arrested for smaller crimes is 3 times greater than for other races.  The most logical conclusion is that Blacks, as a racial group, commit more crimes typically, than their percentage of the population would suggest.

Further, the article you referenced used the National Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice rather than the Bureau of Justice Statistics which includes federal and state records.   Why would you use a less credible source as opposed to the one considered the gold standard?  The article makes a big deal that the NCLEAJ source is incomplete, why the bait and switch then?  Why not site the more complete source to make your argument?  The reason is, it doesn't make their argument but shows Blacks have a much higher crime rate in the US than their population would suggest, just as Asians have a much lower rate than their population would suggest.

Your source says "For the same crime, Black men receive sentences an average of 19.1 percent longer than those of their white male counterparts."  However, it failed to factor in several issues such as the percentage of cases for each race where the convicted person has a prior conviction. and if the person was charged with other accompanying crimes.  Further, the Obama administration, no less, reported that it found no racism either among prosecutors nor Judges.  It did note that Judges in districts with high Black majorities, gave white criminals equally long sentences - and that the discrepancy is based on those judges giving longer sentences overall.  This issue though is not racially driven.  Black communities vote in Black judges who give longer sentences the report suggested.  In fact the point of the Obama report was to show that much of the discretion of judges had been taken away from them.

Your source seems to be more of special pleading and bait and switch rather than an honest review of the criminal convictions and arrests by race in the US.  just sayin

Bogan

The "report" you submitted which blames the white guy and claims that the US legal system is biased against blacks was more worthy of hilarity that serious consideration, Factfinder.       If the US system is biased, then how come it is the Black majority cities with their black mayor's and police chiefs where crime is out of control?      The black Democrats "fixed" the biased US justice system in their own jurisdictions by defunding the police, no bail laws, and releasing poor oppressed violent black criminals back into their societies.      That didn't go too well, did it?     Then the dumbarse black leaders thought up a new way to prevent crime.   Just let people legally steal $1000 dollars worth of merchandise from stores per day.      That didn't work out too well either, did it?    With even corner grocery stores in black neighborhoods closing down and fleeing the consequences of bad political decisions made by du-mb black pollical leaders, what did the black leaders do?     They want to make it illegal for grocery stores to close without giving six months notice.     Not real bright, is it?     Which tends to reinforce the idea that black people and their leaders are not real bright.   



        

Delilah6120

Black Americans are only 13% of the population but commit 55% of the crimes why is that

Obviously a complex problem has complex reasons behind it. Blacks commit a higher rate of crimes which typically correlate with poverty, unemployment, lack of education and yes, systemic inequalities. Discrimination and inequality against blacks causes more stress and contributes to feelings of subjugation which can lead to anger, resentment and violence. 

Bogan

@Delilah6120

Delilah6120 opined.        Obviously a complex problem has complex reasons behind it.

 

Wrong.  It is a very simple problem.    The overwhelming majority of people from notoriously dysfunctional races just do not have enough intelligence to prosper within advanced western societies where at the very least a slightly below average IQ or better is absolutely essential.     

 

Delilah6120    Blacks commit a higher rate of crimes which typically correlate with poverty, unemployment, lack of education and yes, systemic inequalities.

Wrong again.  The excuse that blacks suffer from a lack of educational opportunities is not valid in any western society where black and whit students sit together in the same classrooms.       The excuse that blacks suffer from unemployment hardly makes sense when black communities think that looting the local grocery store and Walmart is a clever thing to do.       Black areas were usually very prosperous white areas before blacks arrived seeking handouts and drove the whites way with their violent behaviour, and their penchant for voting for black politicians who think that squeezing the white taxpayers until the pips squeak is good economic sense.       “Systemic inequalities” is hardly an excuse where the population of an entire city is mainly black, and the city is bankrupt crime ridden hellhole.   Lastly, “poverty” is no excuse because criminologists know that there have existed very poor communities where crime rates were very low.   One good example would be London in the 1900’s where crime was so low that, much to the amazement of the rest of the world, London police had no need to carry firearms.    England and Wales homicide rate at that time was the lowest ever recorded for any industrialised society, then and now.      Want to see how white and law abiding poor white people lived at the time?   Here is a picture that might stimulate some neuronal activity in you sclerotic brain that poverty does not cause crime.           It has become a provable premise that welfare causes crime.   

      

Delilah quote    Discrimination and inequality against blacks causes more stress and contributes to feelings of subjugation which can lead to anger, resentment and violence. 

 

Under DEI, the only people being discriminated against in the western world are white people, Asians and Jews.       How come these races are not turning to crime?  

Bogan

Barnardot

@Bogan ; because the most common IQ's among Africans is roughly 

So this is the latest buzz expression from the half brain biased statistics that you manage to find and try to convince others that it actually means something?

Let me try the new buzz expression then. The most common form of hatred and bigotry comes from half brained nits.

Delilah6120

@Bogan @Just_sayin

Wrong.  It is a very simple problem.    The overwhelming majority of people from notoriously dysfunctional races just do not have enough intelligence to prosper within advanced western societies where at the very least a slightly below average IQ or better is absolutely essential.     

Your racism is glaring. Your claim is ignorant. You generalize an entire group of people based on race and intelligence. The above statement is unfounded and discriminatory and shows that ... You generalized a whole race of people to be one ...It is racist implying that one race is inferior based on their intelligence

You´ve been brainwashed by a leader who is racist - and you - like your racist leader - further marginalize disadvantaged groups to elevate your poor, needy, miserable souls as he does.

Delilah6120    Blacks commit a higher rate of crimes which typically correlate with poverty, unemployment, lack of education and yes, systemic inequalities.

Wrong again.  The excuse that blacks suffer from a lack of educational opportunities is not valid in any western society where black and whit students sit together in the same classrooms.

I won´t waste my time with a rascist. And no, I´m not running bc I´ve nothing to say. I´m bowing out because you´re just too sad to entertain - you poor, miserable soul.

And Just_sayin enough with the DEI B <<< S. Get a grip. The degree to which you´ve both been indoctrinated into the Aggressive Hate Club is sad.

just_sayin

Delilah6120 said:

@Bogan @Just_sayin

Wrong.  It is a very simple problem.    The overwhelming majority of people from notoriously dysfunctional races just do not have enough intelligence to prosper within advanced western societies where at the very least a slightly below average IQ or better is absolutely essential.     

Your racism is glaring. Your claim is ignorant. You generalize an entire group of people based on race and intelligence. The above statement is unfounded and discriminatory and shows that ... You generalized a whole race of people to be one ...It is racist implying that one race is inferior based on their intelligence

You´ve been brainwashed by a leader who is racist - and you - like your racist leader - further marginalize disadvantaged groups to elevate your poor, needy, miserable souls as he does.

Delilah6120    Blacks commit a higher rate of crimes which typically correlate with poverty, unemployment, lack of education and yes, systemic inequalities.

Wrong again.  The excuse that blacks suffer from a lack of educational opportunities is not valid in any western society where black and whit students sit together in the same classrooms.

I won´t waste my time with a rascist. And no, I´m not running bc I´ve nothing to say. I´m bowing out because you´re just too sad to entertain - you poor, miserable soul.

And Just_sayin enough with the DEI B <<< S. Get a grip. The degree to which you´ve both been indoctrinated into the Aggressive Hate Club is sad.

Now, Bogie may be a friend, but I don't agree with him on racial issues.  I don't know how long you have been on the site, but I have mentioned that not that long ago I was on a board for transitional housing program for Black women.  I don't have a problem with your statement 'Blacks commit a higher rate of crimes which typically correlate with poverty, unemployment, lack of education and yes, systemic inequalities.'  However, it is my observation that leftists do not want to deal with the issue of single parent homes.  Obama acknowledged the problem:

https://www.politico.com/story/2008/06/text-of-obamas-fatherhood-speech-011094

But his party ran from the issue.

DEI is like sticking jello to a wall.  If I say DEI is this, you will say no it isn't.  So instead, let me tell you what is racist - any policy that favors or discriminates against someone on the basis of race for admissions, hiring, promotions, recognition, influence, awards, getting grants, scholarships, or contracts is a racist policy.  Period.  I know leftists believe their racism is holy racism and that their racism is well intentioned.  The problem with holy well intentioned racism though, is that IT IS STILL RACISM.  No one should be discriminated against because of their race.  Its fine to help people achieve more, as long as you aren't only helping the races you favor, but to penalize others or to hold others down or back because they aren't the races you care about is blatant racism and it is wrong.  If the kind of racism you decry from 150 years ago was morally wrong, then the kind of racism you embrace today is morally wrong also.

Bogan

@Delilah6120

Delilah6120   Opined         Your racism is glaring.

That is because, just like everybody else on planet Earth, I am a racist.    Racism can hardly be socially unacceptable behaviour if everybody does it.     Your problem, is one of cognitive dissonance.     You have been brain washed to think that racism is just awful, yet you cannot see your own racism.  

 

Delilah6120    Your claim is ignorant.

 Ignorance is when you either do not have the information to make rational decisions, or you just think in slogans.      Your belief that racists are ignorant is just a culturally transmitted belief (no different to Rick’s belief in God’s, sons of Gods, and that Satan exists)  which has been inculcated into your brain by your peers to stop you thinking rationally about something that your peers consider be forever considered an Absolute Truth, never to be questioned.      Question it.     Only dumb people think in absolutes, Delilah.     No cultural value is carved in stone.      Our western world is turning to sh-it because the cultural values which we have developed during the Age of Aquarius are not working.     Time for intelligent people to question them.      Turn away from the Dark Side, Delilah.   

 

 Delilah6120          You generalize an entire group of people based on race and intelligence.

 I love it when my opponents come at me in the same old way, and I just shoot them down in the same old way.      Everybody makes generations, Delilah.    There is nothing wrong with doing that.     You think that racists are ignorant.     THAT is a generalisation.        You think that Nazis are all evil.     That is a generalisation.      Generalisations are just that.     They may not be entirely true, just true enough to make a reasonably accurate statement.   Your problem is, that you have been conditioned to think that people like me making generalisations is absolutely wrong, yet you do it yourself without even thinking about it.   And it has never occurred to you that you are condemning your opponents for what you do yourself.

 As for making a generalisation about race and intelligence, I can justify that position with many reasoned arguments.     However, your own generalised belief that all races are equal is something you are unable to justify with any reasoned argument.     It is simply a belief that has been inculcated into your brain by your teachers and your peers for so long that you have accepted it without thinking about it.       You have considered it an Absolute Truth for so long that it never occurred to you that you would ever need to defend it. 

 

  Delilah6120          The above statement is unfounded and discriminatory and shows that ... You generalized a whole race of people to be one ...It is racist implying that one race is inferior based on their intelligence.

 Is it racist that 75% of the US NRL football league is composed of black players?     Or is it because of a biological fact?      That some races have genetically evolved on hot savannas over 200,00 years of human history to be superior at running sports than others?      Does this make those races who are not as good at other races at running “inferior”?       Or is it simply stating the obvious?       Some races are better adapted to live in cold climates and others better adapted to live in hot climates.      How is it racist to say that?      Some races live in environments where a lot of very dangerous large predators live, it is understandable that they may evolve personalities different from people who evolved within environments where large carnivorous predators never existed.      Some races evolved over thousands of years to live within highly complex advanced societies where a knowledge of mathematics became more and more necessary.   Others lived for thousands of years within primitive societies where their only conception of mathematics was “one, two, many.”      Why is it impossible for you to understand that races barley out of the stone age are unable to grasp basic mathematics?     That some races are hopeless at mathematics is now causing some activists from these races to claim that “mathematics is racist.”   If you agree with them, then you are not thinking straight.      

 

Delilah6120      You´ve been brainwashed by a leader who is racist - and you - like your racist leader - further marginalize disadvantaged groups to elevate your poor, needy, miserable souls as he does.

 I do not know which “leader” that you are referring to?       My own racist opinions I developed myself over time.     I was once an anti racist like your good self, until I realised that those people who claimed to be most vehemently anti racist, were in fact extremely racist themselves .   They hated the white race, which just happens to be my race.   That got me thinking.        I hope you can manage what I managed to achieve?

 

 Delilah6120    I won´t waste my time with a rascist. And no, I´m not running bc I´ve nothing to say. I´m bowing out because you´re just too sad to entertain - you poor, miserable soul.

 You are running away because you have an opinion which you never thought that you would ever need to justify.      So, you can't do it.            I have crossed swords with many different people on debate sites around the world who have your opinion.     Their problem, is that they hold beliefs which they hold so dear, which they themselves know that they can not justify, even to themselves.      But they have been conditioned to think that "smart" people are non racists and "du-mb people are racists, and that is all they care about.       Thinking outside of the box can be socially problematic with your peers.   .   

MichaelElpers

@Delilah6120

Id like to know why you believe the majority of the Nba is made of black players?  Why are all corners defensive backs in the nfl made of black players even though they are experiencing the systematic inequalities you say are prevalent?

What explains the anomaly?

just_sayin

MichaelElpers said:

@Delilah6120

Id like to know why you believe the majority of the Nba is made of black players?  Why are all corners defensive backs in the nfl made of black players even though they are experiencing the systematic inequalities you say are prevalent?

What explains the anomaly?

Great point @MichaelElpers

 If I could tag on to this observation: If DEI is such a good thing and equity is the goal, shouldn't we fire a lot of Black NFL football players and give their positions to White players, so the NFLs make up will look like the United States?  That would only be fair, right?

Barnardot

@Bogan ;@Delilah6120 Delilah6120   Opined         Your racism is glaring.
    Racism can hardly be socially unacceptable behaviour if everybody does it.

Your quiet right there. The only thing is that you made it conditional and used the IF word. The fact is that not every body does it. It only comes from half brained hate filled bigoted nits like you which thanks goodness are few and far between. 

Delilah6120

@Bogan

Saying everyone is racist is like saying everyone is a . While it might be true that everyone has lied at some point in their lives, it doesn't mean everyone is a habitual . The same thing holds true for racism. While everyone might have some unconscious biases, it doesn't mean everyone is maliciously racist.

Stop trying to justify your racism. You are a racist and I might add, a malicious racist.

I am not. Grow up and climb out of your safe box and join society.

Delilah6120

@just_sayin

 If I could tag on to this observation: If DEI is such a good thing and equity is the goal, shouldn't we fire a lot of Black NFL football players and give their positions to White players, so the NFLs make up will look like the United States?  That would only be fair, right?

Since you seem to be extremely concerned about Asians being discriminated against in college admissions, why haven´t you asked why Asians are underrepresented in football?

Research that and then get back to me. The answer to that question should shed some light on your question above.

just_sayin

Delilah6120 said:

@just_sayin

 If I could tag on to this observation: If DEI is such a good thing and equity is the goal, shouldn't we fire a lot of Black NFL football players and give their positions to White players, so the NFLs make up will look like the United States?  That would only be fair, right?

Since you seem to be extremely concerned about Asians being discriminated against in college admissions, why haven´t you asked why Asians are underrepresented in football?

Research that and then get back to me. The answer to that question should shed some light on your question above.

The answer is fairly obvious - 1) Football is more of an American sport, and not as popular in Asian countries to begin with, and 2) Asians spend more than twice the time studying than white kids, and almost 4 times the amount of Black kids a week.  They are busy studying, and often don't have time for Football.  Did that shed some light on the issue to you?  It should have.  

Even though Asians are statistically poorer when they come to the US initially, than other racial groups in the US, they tend to do very well adapting in the US.  They have much lower percentages of single parent homes, and a different culture with respect to education.  If Harvard admitted on merit, then almost 50% of those it lets in would be Asian.  When Harvard doesn't admit a hard working Asian student with better scores and grades than other minorities who do get in, that is discrimination - that is racism.  It has real effects.  

Delilah6120

@MichaelElpers ; @Just_sayin

Id like to know why you believe the majority of the Nba is made of black players?  Why are all corners defensive backs in the nfl made of black players even though they are experiencing the systematic inequalities you say are prevalent?

What explains the anomaly?

Why are the majority of NBA predominantly black players?  There are multiple reasons including historical, socioeconomic, cultural, physical. Blacks were historically excluded from many sports opportunities (as well as professional). Basketball is an accessible sport that does not require lots of more - equipment - a ball and a court. Also many successful basketball players serve as role models in poor communities thus inspiring many young black children. For many blacks, sports provide a more accessible avenue toward financial success (vs. professional avenues). Many high schools that are predominantly black have programs that provide scholarships to students. Poor communities with black populations invest in basketball programs for youth as a way to keep black youth safe and off the streets. Blacks may have the physical traits that are advantageous in basketball players - height, muscle composition, quickness, etc. 

You ask: ¨Why are all corners defensive backs in the nfl made of black players ...... ?¨

I ask: Why are the positions of coach, quarterback, kicker/punter, offensive linemen and tight ends predominantly white?

Bogan

 To @just_sayin.   It looks as though our little leftie friend Delilah has fled the arena again?      I find it odd that people come onto debate sites and do not want to engage in fair debate with people who hold opposing views to themselves?   

Anyhoo, since I can't talk sense to Delilah, I will select you as my next victim again.       You said that you were a Christian but I don't know what kind of Christian you are?        I do not think that you are the type who believes in Noah's ark, or that Jonah lived in a whale, or that the universe was created in six days.      You seem to be too smart for that.       So, I think that you have the acumen that can be reasoned with?

You claimed that it was "unfair" for Christians to not believe in the idea that all races are equal.      If you can appreciate that the reason why some races make much better runners than others is  because thy evolved within the sort of open grasslands where chasing down game was necessary to survive, then how is it "unfair" to think that those who evolved in jungles, mountains, or forests do not run as well as other races?      How is it "unfair" to understand that people with dark skin and dark eyes have evolved to be better adapted to live in hot sunny environments, while other races were better evolved to live in cold climates?   

Unless, of course, like Ricky, you do not believe in evolution at all?   In which case I am wasting my time?    

just_sayin

Bogan said:

 To @just_sayin.   It looks as though our little leftie friend Delilah has fled the arena again?      I find it odd that people come onto debate sites and do not want to engage in fair debate with people who hold opposing views to themselves?   

Anyhoo, since I can't talk sense to Delilah, I will select you as my next victim again.       You said that you were a Christian but I don't know what kind of Christian you are?        I do not think that you are the type who believes in Noah's ark, or that Jonah lived in a whale, or that the universe was created in six days.      You seem to be too smart for that.       So, I think that you have the acumen that can be reasoned with?

You claimed that it was "unfair" for Christians to not believe in the idea that all races are equal.      If you can appreciate that the reason why some races make much better runners than others is  because thy evolved within the sort of open grasslands where chasing down game was necessary to survive, then how is it "unfair" to think that those who evolved in jungles, mountains, or forests do not run as well as other races?      How is it "unfair" to understand that people with dark skin and dark eyes have evolved to be better adapted to live in hot sunny environments, while other races were better evolved to live in cold climates?   

Unless, of course, like Ricky, you do not believe in evolution at all?   In which case I am wasting my time?    

Bogie, you know your my bud.



But I think that there is a fine line to be drawn.  Michael Phelps has a very unique body type for swimming.  He has a long torso and short legs.  Its ideal for swimming.  You don't have to believe in evolution to believe in genetic traits and variation within a species.  Do more white guys have longer torsos and shorter legs?  Maybe, I don't know.  But anyone of any race with that body type can do better than someone with much longer legs and shorter torso.  Some studies have found that Kenyans may have structural advantages in their legs and feet that could help them with middle and long distance running, including longer Achilles tendons and lower foot levers. So maybe, on the whole, Kenyans are faster than Americans, but it just may be that Americans are on average more out of shape.  The thing is, there are always exceptions to generalized rules.  There are always exceptions.  And that is the point, people must be judged as individuals.  We don't award medals at the Olympics on the basis of your race, but if you won the race. Writing rules based on race rather than merit is racist, and it fails to allow individuals to excel.

Delilah wants to change the rules for people depending on their race.  That's racism.  I'm sure she is sincere in her racism, but its still racism.  Not everyone starts at the same point, that's true, but no one should be held back because of their race - and she supports this.  My legs are way too long to swim as fast as Michael Phelps, but that doesn't mean, that Michael Phelps should be handicapped when he races - which is essentially what Delilah is arguing for in her support of racist DEI policies.

Bogan

@Delilah6120 ;  

Delilah quote    Saying everyone is racist is like saying everyone is a . While it might be true that everyone has lied at some point in their lives, it doesn't mean everyone is a habitual . The same thing holds true for racism. While everyone might have some unconscious biases, it doesn't mean everyone is maliciously racist.

There are only two racist explanations for why some races are always dysfunctional within whichever advanced European society that they come to live in.       The first racist explanation is “It’s all the white guys fault.”      The second racist explanation is, that some races have either evolved, or not evolved qualities which make them suitable candidates to live as equals in advanced societies.       Unless you can explain to me an entirely new explanation which is not racist, then ipso facto, everybody is racist.     I look forward to you explaining to me how my logic is wrong? 

     

Delilah quote     Stop trying to justify your racism.

Nobody needs to justify racism because everybody is racist.

 

Delilah quote       You are a racist and I might add, a malicious racist.   

 How am I “malicious” when I am simply defending my own race from the monstrous and false racist charge that my race is responsible for the dysfunctions of those races which are always dysfunctional within advanced western nations?     Loyalty to ones own people is usually be considered a virtue.     How is it that you think that being a traitor to your own people and culture makes you somebody who should be admired?      When did self flagellation become fashionable again?   

 

Delilah quote  I am not.

Yes, you are.    If you believe that the reason why those races who are always dysfunctional are that way because white people are somehow doing something insidious, then you are racist towards white people.   Which just happens to be my people.  Are they also your people?     If so, then how you got brainwashed to think that despising your own race is somehow a virtue is interesting to speculate upon.  

 

Delilah quote            Grow up and climb out of your safe box and join society.

 Now you are getting angry and indulging in abuse.      That’s good.     It means that you are having trouble relating to this topic on a rational level.   You are beginning to realise that racists are not as dumb as you have been told they all are.    A card carrying member of the educated brahmin caste like yourself should be able to run rings around me.     The fact that you can not really shocks you.   Hence the emotional response and the abuse.

 My aim is to get you thinking straight.     Hopefully you will reach the tipping point where you realise that you are not only being lied to, you are being manipulated by clever people who know your compulsive emotional needs, and who are simply providing you with a false ideology which panders to your ego.      Swimming against the tide of public opinion is what many great thinkers throughout history have done.     If you really think that you are smart, then switch on your critical analysis circuit and debate this important topic like an intelligent person.     Or, why did you come onto a debate site if you do not want to debate?   

MichaelElpers

@Delilah6120

"Blacks may have the physical traits that are advantageous in basketball players - height, muscle composition, quickness, etc."

You see the problem here is that you just participated in generalizing an entire race something you chastised Bogan for doing. If you are going to accept physical advantages than you must accept the possibility of mental ones.

"Why are the positions of coach, quarterback, kicker/punter, offensive linemen and tight ends predominantly white?"

I am much more individualistic than collectivist, I dont think through the lens of race. I dont care if 100% were a certain race. I only posed my question to weed out your hypocrisy. Heres how id respond though.
First off in some of those categories statistically, percentage wise, there are still more black participation than reflected in the national census.
Otherwise its because currently those individuals seem to be best performing in there field. Individuals who may not see themselves have the peak physical characteristics may focus on positions requiring more technique.

Note: No one in DEI seems to care about the lack of Asian participation in these sports.

I can accept due to natural/environmental/evolutionary circumstances there may be some differentiation of traits amongst racial groups.  However those things do not define an individual, and these generalities are extremely inefficient in a meritocricy where you can just talk to an individual/ examine other characteristics/data points that so far exceed the generality of race that it makes it an irrelevant/extraneous variable. Because I understand the power of the individual and am not enamored by group characteristics, I can discard caring or trying to fill group quotas.

Delilah6120

@MichaelElpers

"Blacks may have the physical traits that are advantageous in basketball players - height, muscle composition, quickness, etc."

M: You see the problem here is that you just participated in generalizing an entire race something you chastised Bogan for doing. If you are going to accept physical advantages than you must accept the possibility of mental ones.

I see your point - I WAS generalizing. Thank you for showing me that.  Let me rephrase it: Individuals of diverse backgrounds can possess certain physical traits that are advantageous for certain positions in sports. Their success depends on a combination of many things like skill, training, experience.  

I ¨chastised¨ Bogan for being what I believe is an unapologetic racist seemingly trying to justify his racism by calling everyone racist.  This is just one example of what Bogan said:  ¨This is why some races are always dysfunctional within whichever advanced western society they choose to barge into in order to avail themselves of the white man's welfare.   Importing these troublesome races into advanced societies is exactly the same as importing a bull into a China shop.  Unfortunately, western people today have become so hyper sensitive to racism that they refuse to look the facts in the face.    This unhappy situation will continue until they run out of excuses and stop virtue signaling by blaming themselves for the shortcomings of others.¨  Not only is that statement troubling and offensive but also factually incorrect and rooted in racist ideologies. 

"Why are the positions of coach, quarterback, kicker/punter, offensive linemen and tight ends predominantly white?"

M: I am much more individualistic than collectivist, I dont think through the lens of race. I dont care if 100% were a certain race. I only posed my question to weed out your hypocrisy. Heres how id respond though.
First off in some of those categories statistically, percentage wise, there are still more black participation than reflected in the national census.
Otherwise its because currently those individuals seem to be best performing in there field. Individuals who may not see themselves have the peak physical characteristics may focus on positions requiring more technique.

My hypocrisy? I´m not understanding where my hypocrisy is? I agree with some of your above statement.  Not sure what your point is? Are you saying that blacks are statistically and unfairly admitted into the NFL? Whites generally dominate fields in executive roles, legal professions, finance, real estate. Do you think blacks are the only race that are granted certain professions more readily?

M: Note: No one in DEI seems to care about the lack of Asian participation in these sports.

This was addressed to Just_saying who seems to have an uncanny concern for Asians getting unfairly treated due to DEI policies.

M: I can accept due to natural/environmental/evolutionary circumstances there may be some differentiation of traits amongst racial groups.  However those things do not define an individual, and these generalities are extremely inefficient in a meritocricy where you can just talk to an individual/ examine other characteristics/data points that so far exceed the generality of race that it makes it an irrelevant/extraneous variable. Because I understand the power of the individual and am not enamored by group characteristics, I can discard caring or trying to fill group quotas.

I´m happy that you can accept that there are many facets to hiring one based on many variables. Correct, they do not define ONE individual out of many. I do not share your concern that filling group quotas is actually happening at a pace that appears to be troubling to many. What a perfect world we would live in if we could pick that one perfect person, with all the necessary qualifications, out of hundreds or even thousands to be the best based on meritocracy! Surely you can see how impractical this would be?

MayCaesar

Delilah6120 said:

What a perfect world we would live in if we could pick that one perfect person, with all the necessary qualifications, out of hundreds or even thousands to be the best based on meritocracy! Surely you can see how impractical this would be?

Being unable to always pick the perfect person does not negate the validity of the general approach. I do not know which one of these 1,000 applicants to the PhD program is going to do the best, but I can look at their test scores and a few other metrics and get a pretty good idea of what to expect from each of them.

What I cannot do is look at their race and get any idea of what to expect from them. Someone being or not being Black, Asian, Hispanic or whatever does not tell me absolutely anything. So why consider that at all? The idea of a "racial quota" is just preposterous: there is no benefit to anyone from the classroom containing more people with darker skin shades.

These are explicitly racist initiatives. Imagine if I did the opposite: established, say, a 50% quote for White people. So if my company has less than 50% White people, then I put a hiring freeze on everyone else and only interview White candidates. Would you be cool with that?

jack

P2Chompy said:

Black Americans are only 13% of the population but commit 55% of the crimes why is that

Hello P:

Nahhh..  They're not any more prone to crime than anybody else is.  They just get CAUGHT 55% of the time.

excon

just_sayin

jack said:

P2Chompy said:

Black Americans are only 13% of the population but commit 55% of the crimes why is that

Hello P:

Nahhh..  They're not any more prone to crime than anybody else is.  They just get CAUGHT 55% of the time.

excon

The ones who are the eyewitnesses and the victims of these crimes are predominately Black.  Are you suggesting that Black people snitch more, or that white people are better at hiding dead bodies?

jack

just_sayin said:

jack said:

P2Chompy said:

Black Americans are only 13% of the population but commit 55% of the crimes why is that

Hello P:

Nahhh..  They're not any more prone to crime than anybody else is.  They just get CAUGHT 55% of the time.

excon

The ones who are the eyewitnesses and the victims of these crimes are predominately Black.  Are you suggesting that Black people snitch more, or that white people are better at hiding dead bodies?

Hello again,

Nahh...  They're poorer than white people and it takes money to win your case, which they ain't got.  Most of 'em plea to something they didn't do, just to get out of jail.  That's not crime..  That's extortion.

excon

Bogan

Just-sayin quote    Bogie, you know your my bud.

 Yeah, you and I are mates.   

 

Just sayin quote  You don't have to believe in evolution to believe in genetic traits and variation within a species. 

 Excuse me?      Are you implying that you do not even regard evolution as a scientific fact?      Oh, “just sayin”, what am I going to do with you?      This is why I do not believe in religious superstition, it requires me to put my critical analysis circuits in neutral, ignore the rational,  and just believe the unbelievable.

 

Just-sayin quote       The thing is, there are always exceptions to generalized rules.  There are always exceptions.  And that is the point, people must be judged as individuals.  We don't award medals at the Olympics on the basis of your race, but if you won the race. Writing rules based on race rather than merit is racist, and it fails to allow individuals to excel.

Your logic appears to be, that generalised opinions about other groups of people are always invalid, and that people can only be judged as individuals.     That is not correct.      That means that we can not make any rational decisions about any person unless we know them intimately.      That is simply impossible to do.     It is perfectly valid to make broad, sweeping judgements about other groups of people based upon their known group behaviours and cultural values.        Take Muslims for example.      People like myself have been saying for forty years that the importation of Muslims into western society will result in serious civil strife, parallel societies, calls for separatism, terrorism, rampant criminal behaviour (especially rape) , and finally, either religious partition or civil war.      Your premise, which is the same as what open border fanatics advocated, is that Muslims can not be judged as a group.    They can only be judged as individuals.      Given the situation now occurring in Britain, Germany, France, Sweden, Denmark, and Holland, plainly the fanatics were wrong and the racists were right.

 Your premise is only correct within certain conditions.      People like the Ku Klux Klan or the Nazis, who like yourself only thought in moral absolutes, considered all Africans as inferior human beings.      That was an inappropriate generalisation because it failed to consider that SOME Africans were just as smart as Europeans, and were no more genetically violent as the average European.     But the fact remains that most Africans have low bell curves of IQ compared to Europeans (to say nothing of Asians and Jews), and are much more genetically prone to violent behaviour than most Europeans.        By appreciating that fact, we can make the reasonable conclusion that most African people are unsuitable candidates for living in a modern western society.     And the greater the proportion of Africans within any western society, the more crime and welfare dependency that society will suffer from.       It is the failure to appreciate this simple and irrefutable fact that is causing western society to collapse from within.     

 

Just sayin quote   Delilah wants to change the rules for people depending on their race.  That's racism. I'm sure she is sincere in her racism, but its still racism. 

Yes, Delilah's position is racist, but she can not recognise this fact, because she thinks that her version of racism is has good intentions,.   So in her mind it is not really racism at all.     Her response to any person pointing out her racism is to doublethink using this excuse.     

Just sayin quote        Not everyone starts at the same point, that's true, but no one should be held back because of their race - and she supports this. 

With reservations, so do I.     But in a practical and extremely important matter like immigration, it is reasonable to take the position that most black people from Africa will make very poor immigrants to advanced western societies.    This fact is being played out today in my own country, Australia.    Having no knowledge of Africans at all, and thinking that virtue signaling was all that mattered. Australia started importing black African immigrants and refugees.     That this has been catastrophic in terms of endemic welfare dependency, no go areas, and violent criminal behaviour, was so plain that even the socialist Labor Party, the Party of anti racism, had to agree to stop importing Africans from the Horn of Africa, because of their unacceptable behaviour could no longer be ignored.   

 

Just-sayin quote     My legs are way too long to swim as fast as Michael Phelps, but that doesn't mean, that Michael Phelps should be handicapped when he races - which is essentially what Delilah is arguing for in her support of racist DEI policies.

 Delilah has been brain washed by her culture and her peers in two ways.     Firstly, she has been conditioned to think that racists are all cretins and people who are anti racist are the smart ones.      This has put a mental block in her head which prevents her thinking rationally on any subject regarding race.    After all, nobody wants other people to think that they are a cretin, so her mind simply will not accept any reasonable argument from a person that she considers to be an intellectually inferior cretin.   

 Secondly, she has been provided with an explanation for minority dysfunction which if she ever bothered to think about it, makes no sense at all.      Her responses to me whenever I have pointed out that poverty, lack of education, and discrimination are just not valid anymore, is to simply ignore whatever I have written and flee the topic in a huff.    The fact that she can not argue the points in a rational way, and instead resorts to evasion and  angry abuse, points out just how brain washed she has become.       She knows that she can not mix it in a fair debate, even though she is utterly convinced that she is right, so she flees the arena hurling insults every time.      

MichaelElpers

@Delilah6120

"Let me rephrase it: Individuals of diverse backgrounds can possess certain physical traits that are advantageous for certain positions in sports. Their success depends on a combination of many things like skill, training, experience."

You're rephrasing is stating the same thing, just changing black with diverse and adding a couple different factors.  You are still attributing a physical advantage to a general race which is a problem for your idealogy.

Your hyprocrisy lies in recognizing a general potential physical advantage of one race while calling Bogam racist if they do the same.

Unfortunately you and Bogan represent both sides of the same coin in my opinion and it's rooted in collectivism.
Bogan analyzes the data of a collective race and uses it to over utlize the role that generalization plays in judging an individual.
For you, collective idealogy and the emotional fear of being considered racist has lead you to identify all races are 100% equal in everything. Therefore any inequities must amongst this collective group must be caused by systematic circumstances keeping another down. You get yourself in a logical conundrum when trying to describe when there is a positive inequity for a group you deem victimized like my NBA example.  If all equal, you must admit the NBA must be discriminating against other races or your original assumption must be false.

"I do not share your concern that filling group quotas is actually happening at a pace that appears to be troubling to many. What a perfect world we would live in if we could pick that one perfect person, with all the necessary qualifications, out of hundreds or even thousands to be the best based on meritocracy! Surely you can see how impractical this would be?"

Whether it is happening at a fast pace or not, quotas based on race are definitionally racist and should be disbanded entirely.
Its not about whether or not we can pick the perfect person, its about the fact that race is being considered in a meritocracy.  If you are considering race in a choice defined by meritocracy, you yourself are saying there are inherent advantages of being a certain race.  Do your best to pick out of the thousand applicants and ignore race when do so.  That should be the standard.

Bogan

@Delilah6120

Hi Delilah.     I take umbrage with what you said to “just-sayin” about me.    

Delilah quote    I ¨chastised¨ Bogan for being what I believe is an unapologetic racist seemingly trying to justify his racism by calling everyone racist. 

Then let’s go through this again.     Since there are only two equally racist explanations that account for the reason why certain races are always dysfunctional within which ever advanced western society that they inhabit, and since nobody can think up any explanation that is not racist, then ipso facto, everybody is racist.     I politely asked you to explain to me where my logic is wrong on this point and you just ran away.      Unless you can display to everybody the validity of your convictions by standing your ground and debating calmly and rationally in good faith, all you are doing is displaying to any impartial observer is that anti racists are just rabid ideologues who cannot use logic to justify their own positions.  

   

Delilah quote  This is just one example of what Bogan said:  ¨This is why some races are always dysfunctional within whichever advanced western society they choose to barge into in order to avail themselves of the white man's welfare.   Importing these troublesome races into advanced societies is exactly the same as importing a bull into a China shop.  Unfortunately, western people today have become so hyper sensitive to racism that they refuse to look the facts in the face.    This unhappy situation will continue until they run out of excuses and stop virtue signaling by blaming themselves for the shortcomings of others.¨      Not only is that statement troubling and offensive but also factually incorrect and rooted in racist ideologies

Speaking the truth is often “troubling” and it can be offensive to any group of people you may be negatively judging.   But that hardly any reason to not examine any topic on its merits.    Do you fail criticise Nazis because you are afraid of “offending” them?   Or as per usual with leftists, you apply a different moral standard upon yourself?     As for being “factually incorrect”, the onus is upon you to show where I am factually incorrect, not to just make an unfounded accusation and then run away.     As for being “rooted in racist ideologies”, since your own opinion is rooted in the racist ideology of Critical Race Theory, look in the mirror on that score.   

Bogan

@MichaelElpers

MichaelElpers quote       Unfortunately you and Bogan represent both sides of the same coin in my opinion and it's rooted in collectivism.

Awwww shucks, Michael.    Just when I thought I was getting somewhere with you, you go all wonky on me again.   

 

MichaelElpers quote      Bogan analyzes the data of a collective race and uses it to over utlize the role that generalization plays in judging an individual.    

  As I have explained already to just sayin, everybody makes sweeping generalisations about other groups of people based upon the known values, behaviours, and beliefs of that identifiable group of people.     It is not wrong, it is an everyday event.     It can be inappropriate in some situations, but it can never be condemned as always inappropriate if everybody does it.   Your logic is irrational.    If you still claim otherwise, then I am going to take great pleasure in pointing out to you that you are violating your own stated principles when I catch you doing it yourself.     And I will catch you doing it because everybody does it.    And I have been down this path with numerous opponents over the last twenty years and I always catch them out. 

 

MichaelElpers quote  For you, collective idealogy and the emotional fear of being considered racist has lead you to identify all races are 100% equal in everything. Therefore any inequities must amongst this collective group must be caused by systematic circumstances keeping another down. You get yourself in a logical conundrum when trying to describe when there is a positive inequity for a group you deem victimized like my NBA example.  If all equal, you must admit the NBA must be discriminating against other races or your original assumption must be false.

 Well, you got me buggered Michael?    You seem to be agreeing with my position that races are not equal, while condemning me for “collective thinking” for saying that races are not equal?  

MichaelElpers quote      Whether it is happening at a fast pace or not, quotas based on race are definitionally racist and should be disbanded entirely.

 Good logic so far, it makes me wonder why you normally oppose me? 

 

MichaelElpers quote Its not about whether or not we can pick the perfect person, its about the fact that race is being considered in a meritocracy.  If you are considering race in a choice defined by meritocracy, you yourself are saying there are inherent advantages of being a certain race.  Do your best to pick out of the thousand applicants and ignore race when do so.  That should be the standard.

 You are pointing out to Delilah that her so called anti racist position is racist, which is correct.     But since you seem to be agreeing with me that everybody is racist, why do you think that my version of racism is wrong?      Unless (like I challenged “just-sayin”) you can dream up another completely non racist explanation for why some races are always dysfunctional within western societies, then only one of the two racist explanations for minority dysfunction can be correct.    The onus is upon you to explain to me how my logic is incorrect on that point. 

Factfinder

Doesn't matter what haters say. There was systematic racism throughout the whole process so the numbers don't prove nothing especially in an age where statistics are easily manipulated to promulgate  a specific massage. Like I said, look behind the numbers...

https://oll.libertyfund.org/publications/liberty-matters/2024-02-13-systemic-racism-in-crime-do-blacks-commit-more-crimes-than-whites

MichaelElpers

@Bogan

My disagreement with you is how much you utilize use the statistical average differences amongst races to seemingly judge an individual.
When making choices about an individual there are so many other specific data points that you can look at that makes the average discrepancies among races mute.

Itd be like me saying typically I prefer blue foods better than red 60 to 40.  However when offered the two options Im able to analyze the ingredients, the smell, who they were prepared by. Those averages no longer matter to me.
Only when offered solely the color would I logistically choose blue but this is not typical reality.

Much of what you say centers around a several iq points.  Well then just have them take an iq test.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

Doesn't matter what haters say. There was systematic racism throughout the whole process so the numbers don't prove nothing especially in an age where statistics are easily manipulated to promulgate  a specific massage. Like I said, look behind the numbers...

https://oll.libertyfund.org/publications/liberty-matters/2024-02-13-systemic-racism-in-crime-do-blacks-commit-more-crimes-than-whites

Yes Fact, systemic racism has been present.  Affirmative Action has been codified in policies and laws for the last 50 years.  However, they have not been discriminating the people who are disproportionately committing crimes.  The statistics are the FBI's for violent crimes.  The vast majority of those violent Black perpetrator crimes had Black victims.   Surely, you are not saying that we should deny justice to Black victims?  Are you?

You will have to name the system that is racist so we can fix it.  Just claiming there is 'racism' in the ether is unhelpful, and bogus.  Obama had a study done that showed that prosecutors do not discriminate against Blacks (a little against white suspects in mandatory drug charge cases), and there is no discrimination against Blacks in judging.  It would be hard for there to be much difference in sentencing within a district.  That's what Obama pushed for and implemented.

Bogan

MichaelElpers quote       My disagreement with you is how much you utilize use the statistical average differences amongst races to seemingly judge an individual.

 Everybody judges people from other groups by their known group behaviour, culture, and attitudes.       What is your opinion of individual Nazis, communists, and Ku Klux Klansmen?    If you refuse to answer this crucial question, I will know I have got you.       You know I am right, but you won’t admit it.      I can tell as much about my opponents mindset from the questions they dodge as from their stated positions.  

    

MichaelElpers quote       When making choices about an individual there are so many other specific data points that you can look at that makes the average discrepancies among races mute.

What you wrote is so amorphous that I am not even sure what it means?         It is an everyday event to judge people by their group associations, because often making a judgement about an individual is important, and a person’s race, religion, political affiliation, and even the clothes they wear provides us with the information that we need to make a reasonable assumption.         Fact.    Black African women are 15 times more likely to get either murdered by their black African spouses, or end up bashed in UICU compared to  the women of other races within US society.         Conclusion?     If you are a comparatively wealthy and famous black woman, don’t marry a black man, marry a white one.        Just looking at the number of black female celebrities married to white men tends to reinforce the reasonable conclusion that black African men are very violent and abusive towards women, and the black women know it.

  Despite calls by left wing political activists, the police and customs routinely use ethnic profiling to figure out who is probably up to no good.      There was even a story on youtube about the US customs who used ethnic and religious profiling to detect or dismiss drug traffickers crossing the US border.       There is a community of Amish living in Mexico and Amish routinely cross the US/Mexico border without being searched for contraband.       Unfortunately for US customs, some Amish realised that this could make them rich.     They became “mules” for the cartels, until one border guard decided to do an out-of-routine search  of an Amish car and discovered drugs.   While this tends to show the pitfalls of judging people by their group associations, it is still an example of customs judging people by their race and religion, and it is usually accurate. 

   

MichaelElpers quote 

Itd be like me saying typically I prefer blue foods better than red 60 to 40.  However when offered the two options Im able to analyze the ingredients, the smell, who they were prepared by. Those averages no longer matter to me.
Only when offered solely the color would I logistically choose blue but this is not typical reality.

 You are once again indirectly repeating the fallacy that generalisations must never be used, because they are not 100% accurate.    You are wrong on that point.     Everybody generalises.   Everybody stereotypes.      Everybody prejudges.   As a matter of fact, the human mind works by using stereotypical images of people and objects.      If I was to say to you that there is a Scandinavian and a Zulu sitting together on a bench in the park, your mind will draw up a stereotypical image of what a “Scandinavian”, a “Zulu”, a “bench”, and what a “park” looks like.    These stereotypes we that we all use everyday, need not be 100% accurate, only accurate enough to form a concept.     Your premise implies that unless a generalisation, or a judgment is 100% accurate, it can not be valid.     Your problem is, that human beings do not think that way.   You are advocating for a moral position that is so over the moon high, that you cannot conform to it yourself.

 

MichaelElpers quote      Much of what you say centers around a several iq points.  Well then just have them take an iq test.

 According to Jordan Peterson, the renowned Canadian Psychologist, the US Armed Forces, the world’s most technologically advanced armed forces, give all recruits an IQ test with the cutoff IQ 87.      Below that score, the always body hungry US Armed Forces consider that there is nothing within the US military that a potential recruit can be proficient at     Around 20% of US recruits fail to make 87.     But naturally, the racial proportions of those applicants is never mentioned.       The establishment which you appear to trust, not only lies to you through commission, it lies to you by omission.   It will not tell you what it does not want you to know.  

MayCaesar

MichaelElpers said:

@Bogan

My disagreement with you is how much you utilize use the statistical average differences amongst races to seemingly judge an individual.
When making choices about an individual there are so many other specific data points that you can look at that makes the average discrepancies among races mute.

Itd be like me saying typically I prefer blue foods better than red 60 to 40.  However when offered the two options Im able to analyze the ingredients, the smell, who they were prepared by. Those averages no longer matter to me.
Only when offered solely the color would I logistically choose blue but this is not typical reality.

Much of what you say centers around a several iq points.  Well then just have them take an iq test.

I am generally on the same page as you, but I think there is a key ingredient missing here: lack of sufficient information in many cases. In your blue versus red foods example, suppose all that you knew is that in the container on the left the food is blue, and in the container on the right it is red. You would go for the red one, right?

Now, suppose you are making a choice between hiring a Black woman and an Asian woman. Their resumes are very similar, their backgrounds are similar, and their performances at the interviews are similar. The only difference that you notice between them is, well, their race; everything else is pretty much the same.

You know that statistically Asian people have better work ethics than Black people and are (slightly) smarter. Would it be wrong for you to pick the Asian woman given that?

I would think that in 99.9% real world cases the candidates would not be this similar, so you would never have to go by such general statistics when making the decision. Nonetheless, such cases may exist, and there is a lot of room for debate on how those cases should be treated. All three approaches are valid:

1) I choose the Black person because I want to push against racial prejudice, at the expense of small expected loss in profits.

2) I flip a coin and choose at random, believing that the small statistical difference does not justify racial discrimination.

3) I choose the Asian person because this way I will maximize the expected profit from the hire.

Personally, I go with 2, for a variety of reasons. However, I can ignore race when making such decisions - and ignore race in general (I am not even convinced that the concept of "race" is biologically sound) - while recognizing that statistical differences exist. It is interesting to explore the sources and the implications of those differences (something your opponent has done a very poor job of), and their discussion should not be silenced. It should probably not affect policy-making though - and I say "probably" because Lee Kuan Yew has made a very compelling argument for the other side of the issue (and demonstrated its practical utility in Singapore), and I do not have a very good rebuttal.

jack

P2Chompy said:

I have been wondering this for a while now and would love to hear your takes.

Hello:

I've given you a couple of sociological reasons.. Truth is, I dunno why the statistics are the way they are.  But, if you think the reason is the color of their skin, I vociferously disagree..

excon

Bogan

Interesting.    I think that Delilah started this topic and now she flees the arena because she has come up against some real opposition to her beliefs, and rather than debate them in a calm and rational manner, she just runs away hurling curses.       So called "anti racists" have convinced themselves that they are all smart and their opponents are all du-mb.     It sure looks the other way around to me.  

MichaelElpers

@MayCaesar

Yes id pick the blue container because I typically prefer them 60 to 40. 

I think the answer to your overall premise though is when Im allowed knowledge of the actual traits that Im looking for there is no longer a need to use the average metric.
If two people are going to the school, test simarly, same gpa etc, I have now confirmed they are similar status, the superficial average is now mute. There is no reason for me to believe the Asian woman is smarter, the determing metrics say shes not.

MichaelElpers

@Bogan

"Everybody judges people from other groups by their known group behaviour, culture, and attitudes.       What is your opinion of individual Nazis, communists, and Ku Klux Klansmen?    If you refuse to answer this crucial question, I will know I have got you."

Well not all groupings are the same.  The Nazis and the KKK have specific idealogies that people choose to belong to.  People grouped in a category such as race or having a large nose do not choose their affiliation

"You are once again indirectly repeating the fallacy that generalisations must never be used, because they are not 100% accurate"

Wrong. Thats not what im saying.
First off, Im stating there are generalizations outside of race which involve actual choices people make which provide much more substantial data to draw conclusions from.
And more importantly theres no reason to resort back to group averages when you can gather specific data.
If an Asian, Black, and White individual take an IQ test and score the same, theres absolutely 0 reason to revert back your average and say the Asian is likely smarter. 

MayCaesar

MichaelElpers said:

@MayCaesar

Yes id pick the blue container because I typically prefer them 60 to 40. 

I think the answer to your overall premise though is when Im allowed knowledge of the actual traits that Im looking for there is no longer a need to use the average metric.
If two people are going to the school, test simarly, same gpa etc, I have now confirmed they are similar status, the superficial average is now mute. There is no reason for me to believe the Asian woman is smarter, the determing metrics say shes not.

I just have a small objection. Your conclusion is valid under the assumption that all the factors contributing to the statistical difference between smartness of Asian and Black women are covered by the information the employer has collected on them. In practice this is unlikely to happen, and even if it does happen, it is hard to prove that this is the case. For example, if we limit ourselves to one specific similarity - say, similarity in two candidates' resumes - then even among these subgroups of Asian and Black women there can be differences in smartness, although they would be expected to be smaller. On the other hand, the differences might disappear, or even get reversed.

One curious example of that effect is Nigerians versus Americans. Nigerian immigrants in the US outperform (in terms of salaries) both American immigrants in Nigeria and Americans in the US - but Nigerians in Nigeria underperform both Americans in the US and Americans in Nigeria. In this case, if we look at the US, then Nigerians will do better than Americans - but in a different region, Nigeria, it is the reverse. It is explained by the fact that, despite superficial symmetry of these groups, in practice they are very different. Most Nigerians who come to the US are the elite of Nigeria in terms of their ability to perform well on the free market, while most Americans in Nigeria are not the elite of the US.

We could have the curious situation in which, on average, Black women with great resumes are actually smarter than Asian women with equally great resumes, because Black women that go this far in their careers are the best of the best of their group, while for Asians it is much more common to get this far.

In the end, your reasoning seems completely valid to me, and I rest my case.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Whether affirmative action works or not is a whole other issue and not the topic. Are you suggesting the systematic racism and succeeding discrimination towards blacks in this country were exaggerated? Or are you saying it didn't and now doesn't exist in any police forces throughout America? That's a pretty big negative you'd be claiming. I have to ask do you know what I mean by looking beyond the numbers?

Bogan

@MichaelElpers

MichaelElpers quote  Well not all groupings are the same.  The Nazis and the KKK have specific idealogies that people choose to belong to.  People grouped in a category such as race or having a large nose do not choose their affiliation.

 Nicely dodged, Michael.    One problem I have with a lot of my opponents is that they never just come right out and say what they think is right or wrong.   They will oppose everything I say, and then I have to guess from that what their real beliefs are.     Your premise appeared to be, that you can not judge individuals from their group associations.      When I asked you the question about whether you judge individual Nazis, communists, and Ku Klux Klansmen from their group associations, you knew that I had you painted into a corner.        So, you qualified your answer into a non answer.     Regardless of whether a group of people are a race, a religion, a social group, a tribe, or even a nation, individually and collectively they can be judged by their group associations and they routinely are.     You cannot say it is wrong to do so because everybody does it.      Generalisations are just that.    They do not apply to everybody within that group but generally, they do.     One of the main hypocrisies of the Left is that they routinely judge the groups of people that they do not like with negative generalisations, while at the same time getting hysterical about their opponents doing exactly the same thing to the groups of people which the Left champions.         

MichaelElpers quote  Wrong. Thats not what im saying.First off, Im stating there are generalizations outside of race which involve actual choices people make which provide much more substantial data to draw conclusions from.

Then I still have you painted into a corner.      You are implying that all races are equal.    That in itself is a generalisation where you are judging that the individuals of every race are identical, at least when it comes to IQ and personality.         Without any proof or reasoned argument to back that concept up, of course.     If US black females are 15 times more likely to be murdered or end up in ICU after being beaten by the male black spouses, how is it wrong to conclude that most black men are extremely violent and especially so to women?        The fact that SOME black men may not have misogynistic views and be extremely violent does not detract from the judgement that, generally speaking, black African men are misogynistic and violent.    Which is why so many of them end up in jail.     And why so many white people do not want to have anything to do with them.    It has nothing to do with “white supremacy”, “white discrimination”, “lack of education”, “poverty”, or any of the usual excuses which well meaning people like Delilah use to explain away black dysfunction. 

      

MichaelElpers quote      And more importantly theres no reason to resort back to group averages when you can gather specific data.

Could you decipher that sentence for me please, Michael?     I am at a loss to even understand what it means?     Be sure your brain is in gear before you select “keyboard.”

 

MichaelElpers quote     If an Asian, Black, and White individual take an IQ test and score the same, theres absolutely 0 reason to revert back your average and say the Asian is likely smarter. 

 Once again, I have to try and figure out what on earth you are talking about from a very poorly written sentence.        Calm down, Michael.    Go and get a coffee and grab a few bickies, and think about what you are trying to say before you write it out.   You appear to be saying that the individuals of every race have identical IQ’s?      Or at least the individuals of every race have identical bell curves of IQ’?       Well, to begin with, you are judging individuals by their group associations (or even races) and judging that they are all identical.      Okay, now how do you know that every individual in every race is identical?     What makes you think that all individuals from every race each have identical bell curves of IQ, and therefore identical personalities?        I know that you are going to ignore this challenge because you do not know yourself why you think that your own premise is true.    It is just an article of faith that has been culturally conditioned into your head, and it is no different from Ricky’s belief that there is an all powerful God.    

 I, on the other hand, can provide you with an avalanche of information to prove that you are wrong.