Is believing in nothing still believing in something?

just_sayin

Saying 'there is no God' is a truth claim.  It is what someone believes.  With that belief there comes, either direct or indirect sub-beliefs.  For example, if you say 'there is no God', then you believe there are no supernatural events.  Everything must have an ultimate naturalistic cause.  So, an atheist does not believe in a God, but they do have beliefs that have logical additional beliefs.  So they have a belief system.

Factfinder

Saying "I don't believe in gods" is nothing but a declaration of unbelief. What one believes beyond that has nothing to do with deities. And is subject to reason.

iamzombie

@just_sayin So then yes?

just_sayin

iamzombie said:

@just_sayin So then yes?

If that something can be a system of belief, rather than an entity, then yes.  Atheists have a belief that their is no God and sub-beliefs based on that primary belief.

MayCaesar

I am not sure what it would mean to "believe in nothing". But whatever it is, logically believing in nothing implies that there is no "something" in which you believe. If the set of things you believe in is empty, then no entity has the property that you believe in it.

But perhaps you meant something different? Something like this: "If someone says, 'I believe in nothing', do they still believe in something?" The answer is yes: they believe that they believe in nothing.

Barnardot

@iamzombie ;I think so since you can prove there is nothing beyond just about as much as you can prove there is something more. 

I really think that you are over thinking and trying to make some thing out of nothing excuse the pun.

To start with nothing is not something so end of argument period.

And believing in nothing is so hypothetical its not even funny. It is human nature that every single body believes in something and it is impossible to believe in nothing because we all have a brain that thinks.

And your argument is a warped non sequitur any way since just because you prove or believe there is nothing it doesnt make that nothing into something. I know what your trying to say . Like derr there's nothing in there so I have proved something. So what I am saying is that you cant take a something from a different circumstance and apply it to a nothing of a related circumstance.

Quiet clear really. Your theory is busted.

Joeseph

***you can prove there is nothing ***

OK,  prove it,?

maxx

horrible logic. a belief in nothing is the same as there is nothing to believe in so it is not a belief. @iamzombie

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;Saying 'there is no God' is a truth claim.  It is what someone believes.

No way hozay.

Saying there is no God is the same as saying there is no flying pigs. 

Its not what some one believes its what normal people know without having to think about it or having some one say. Like derr its only your belief that there's no flying pigs.

Then you say back to that nit. Like derr do believe in flying fists like especially this one. Kaaaaaapow!

Barnardot

@Joeseph ;***you can prove there is nothing *** OK,  prove it,?

Your got a really good point there. 

Because you can't prove that there's nothing on Temu thats worth Jack shite.

You can only prove that every thing on Temu is worth Jack shite.

Barnardot

@just_sayin @Iamzombie ;Atheists have a belief

Okay you win. You win.
Atheists do have a belief.
Atheists believe that all Goddists are a sand which short of a picnic.

Joeseph

@Barnardot

Because you can't prove that there's nothing on Temu thats worth Jack shite.


BARNY IS CONFUSED AGAIN HE HATES ANYTHING NOT AMERICAN MADE , YET LOVES HIS PAKISTANI MADE NIKES AS HE THINKS PAKISTANIS ARE SOMEHOW AMERICANS BECAUSE THEY'RE SUB CONTACTED BY NIKE ......

BARNY ADMITTED BEFORE CHINA MAKES SUPERIOR PRODUCTS HIS FELLOW AMERICANS AGREE YET HES SULKING NOW BECAUSE HE FEELS AMERICANS ARE NOT BEING PATRIOTIC .......TRUMP WOULD LOVE HIM .....

Funny that TEMU launched in the US in 2022 but is already the most popular shopping app in the US 55 million American users a month , bitter little yanks like you love getting fleeced by big American companies thinking your somehow American patriots because your own people are fleecing you .......I will pass on your concerns to TEMU I'm sure they may cease trading on your advice after all they only pulled in 17 billion last year in profits from the 167 million monthly  customers they have 

just_sayin

maxx said:

horrible logic. a belief in nothing is the same as there is nothing to believe in so it is not a belief. @iamzombie

Horrible logic.  If you believe in nothing.  That is a belief you hold.  So you hold a belief - and a belief is something.  

maxx

If nothing exists, then you can not believe in it, for there is nothing there to believe in. It is like saying, I believe there are no beliefs. So if there are no beliefs, he cannot have a belief. @just_sayin

just_sayin

maxx said:

If nothing exists, then you can not believe in it, for there is nothing there to believe in. @just_sayin

I agree atheists do not believe in God whom they say does not exist.  However, I understand the OP to be asking something different.  Is saying I don't believe in anything, still a belief?   In that sense, I think the answer is yes.  Atheism is a belief there is no God.  The truth claim is that God does not exist. A subpart of this belief would be that the atheist does not belief in supernatural acts or interventions.  This would mean that the atheist does not believe in miracles of the type a God is needed.  It would also mean that atheists believe there must be naturalistic explanations for the origins of the universe and for life.  So atheists have a belief system - and that is something.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder @MayCaesar @Barnadot ; @JulesKorngold ; @Joeseph ; But, you do "believe" that there is no Creator; therefore, you do "believe" absent evidence. You can't have it both ways; therefore, you "believe" and express incredible "faith" that all of Nature emanated from a naturalistic origin which is a much "greater" faith than that of the Christian who "believes" that Elohim (Genesis 1:1) is Creator yet you have NO evidence of a Naturalist Origin yet Elohim has expressed and articulated clearly the who, what, where, when, why, concerning the creation narrative and He has provided eschatology, fulfilled prophecy, that under girds His ownership of said creation narrative. Atheism is a "religion" of unbelief in a god or creator and this "unbelief" is a "belief" in a naturalist origin of all things which is an expression of unfathomable "faith."

MayCaesar

maxx said:

If nothing exists, then you can not believe in it, for there is nothing there to believe in. It is like saying, I believe there are no beliefs. So if there are no beliefs, he cannot have a belief. @just_sayin

Yes, this is an example of a statement that defeats itself. Much like in the question: "The barber shaves everyone who does not shave themselves. Does the barber shave himself?" There is no logically sound answer, which suggests that the original statement is incoherent: there can be no such barber.

However, the OP was not referencing the belief that nothing exists, but, rather, the belief in nothing - in essence, lack of belief in anything. It is very much possible to imagine an entity having this property: for example, to our best knowledge, a dead person does not believe in anything.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Well using your " logic" one can claim people who claim to believe in god lack a belief in the non existence of God so they cannot call themselves " faithful" they should just admit they are doubters , sceptics,  non believers.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; If Christians believed in the non-existence of Elohim, they would not be Christians but foolish atheists...your argument is absent simple logic.

maxx

Actually I failed to see anything about religion in the op. But I now noticed it was in the religion category. Still, a bad way to word it. Saying I don't believe in God, is still the same as saying that there is no God to believe in, and that being so, can not be a belief. @MayCaesar

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

If Christians believed in the non-existence of Elohim, they would not be Christians but foolish atheists

But I didn't say that you id-ot


...your argument is absent simple logic.

It uses the very same " reasoning " as yours thank you for admitting your original statement  is absent of logic I agree, 

I love the way you christians always beat your own arguments.

MayCaesar

@maxx

"There is no god" would be a belief. "I do not believe in god", on the other hand, would not be a statement of belief. Neither of these though equate believing in nothing.

I think one of the sources of confusion in discussions like this is that different people mean different things by "belief". "I believe that the Sun is a star" is a very different kind of statement than "I believe that Zeus defeated Cronus". In the first case I declare that the Sun is an object satisfying very clearly defined properties on the basis of prior observations supporting it having those properties; in the second case I declare that the old Greek myth described actual historical events on the basis of nothing but other people's claims. A belief in the sense in which me or you use the word means something like "justifiably favored hypothesis", while a belief in the religious sense means something like "statement taken to be true on faith".

There is a philosophical school that posits that, in the end, no accurate knowledge is available to humans. That would suggest in the most extreme interpretation that justifiably favored hypotheses do not exist, so in a sense beliefs in the former sense are non-existent. But I am not confident that this is what the OP was hinting at.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hail Caesar

@iamzombie @MayCaesar

The Sun is a star within the context of internal data assessment, simulated imagery and variously associated sensory effects.

Such are human limitations.

Belief is also an internal assessment, resulting in an accepted uncertainty.

Human behaviour is also such, that nothing is unachievable.

MayCaesar

@Fredsnephew

Indeed, uncertainty is inevitable, even when it comes to the most basic beliefs: I cannot even be 100% confident that I am right when I say that 2+2=4, since I always have to account for the possibility of my brain malfunctioning and making some fundamental reasoning error.

There is, however, a difference between uncertainty that stems from inherent limitations of human brain and technology - and one that stems from simply guessing. I can say that it will likely rain tomorrow based on the weather forecast, and I can be wrong with the probability of, say, 10%. It is very different from me saying that tomorrow I will meet a new friend named John, when I have no plans to meet anyone tomorrow at all - and even if it actually happens, I will just have gotten lucky and guessed correctly, but my statement was not justified.

Another way to think of it as the difference between a trained marksman shooting at a target, and someone randomly pointing a gun and pressing the trigger. The marksman may miss the target, and the randomly shooting person may happen to hit the target - but it does not negate the fact that the marksman used a much more sound approach to hitting the target than the randomly shooting person.

We can become very good marksmen, but we will never be perfect. As long as there is a trajectory of improvement, we are on the right track!

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx @Factfinder You do "believe"....you "believe" there is no god and you therefore "believe" that our supernatural creation is the resultant of a naturalistic origin which you believe and accept by faith.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

@MayCaesar

O.K.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Tricky Rickey

@RickeyHoltsclaw


Belief is uncertainty Rickey.

You are as uncertain as me.


You may be adamant that you're not uncertain.

But this doesn't prove anything.

Barnardot

@RickeyHoltsclaw ;@maxx @Factfinder ;You do "believe"....you "believe" there is no god

No. We don’t have to believe because we couldn’t even give a stuff that there is no God.

Just like normal people don’t have to believe that there are no purple flying monsters with ten eyes or that there are no Leppercorns or any other ridiculous things that deluded nits come up with. We have better things to do with our lifes than keep looking over our shoulders wondering weather we should not believe what nits say. We just don’t give a suff.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Fredsnephew ; When one believes in Jesus, "certainty" is infused within the spirit via the indwelling Holy Spirit but you don't understand this nor can you as you're dead spiritually due your rejection of Jesus as Messiah. You have chosen to ally with the wickedness of this World...you will surely reap what you're sowing lest you repent.

Factfinder

The irony of this thread is the factual reality god worshippers believe in imaginative deities and the mythical folklore that embellishes their deity of choice, i.e. nothing at all but blind empty faith. Who's truly put their faith in "nothing"?

Barnardot

@Factfinder ;nothing at all but blind empty faith. Who's truly put their faith in "nothing"?

Well to them that’s there own realty because there brains are so scattered in trying to deal with actual realty. 

So it’s like drugs in the end because they get hooked on there dream world and won’t let go of it at any cost.