Do you agree with Harley-Davidson's decision to drop DEI initiatives?

Bogan

Of course.    Minorities can not complain about racism and demand equality, and then engage in racism themselves by demanding special consideration based on skin colour.   

just_sayin

The DEI policies that Harley-Davidson had were hiring quotas and spending goals for diverse suppliers.  Both are racist policies.  Determining who you buy supplies from based on their race discriminates against white and Asian owned businesses.  Hiring based on race, is obviously discriminatory.  People talk about systemic racism in the US. It exists.  It is openly displayed in policies and laws for Affirmative Action and DEI.  You don't get more systemic than literally written in the laws and policies that have to be followed.  

It is sad to me, that so many, especially those on the left, think their racism is good racism.  They genuinely believe it is OK to discriminate against someone if they are of a certain race.  

EvePhantom

I think its too little to late, the CEO allowed DEI in to a company that's main customer base is biker gangs, that's a tell tale sign that a company is rotten from the top down. Harley only changed its position when sales dropped and stock was hit, this is a complete mis alignment between management and the ethos of the Harley brand, even if they can shake the DEI dust off they still have to account for the corporatism and how this doesn't match the customer. Harley Died the moment they allowed a DEI loon in to their decision making process, would a hells angels club allow a purple haired freak in to their clubhouse? of course not.

The problem is that trans freaks will now start buying the bikes to combat the removal of DEI and as we know when they get their beards in a twist they wreck a brand just by association. Bye Harley Davidson say hi to bud light and Disney for us when you reach the gates of DEI hell

just_sayin

EvePhantom said:

I think its too little to late, the CEO allowed DEI in to a company that's main customer base is biker gangs, that's a tell tale sign that a company is rotten from the top down. Harley only changed its position when sales dropped and stock was hit, this is a complete mis alignment between management and the ethos of the Harley brand, even if they can shake the DEI dust off they still have to account for the corporatism and how this doesn't match the customer. Harley Died the moment they allowed a DEI loon in to their decision making process, would a hells angels club allow a purple haired freak in to their clubhouse? of course not.

The problem is that trans freaks will now start buying the bikes to combat the removal of DEI and as we know when they get their beards in a twist they wreck a brand just by association. Bye Harley Davidson say hi to bud light and Disney for us when you reach the gates of DEI hell

Biker gangs??  The average Harley-Davidson customer is a married man in his early 50s, with a household income at or above $90,000.  They may watch Sons of Anarchy or Mayans on TV, if it isn't on to late, but that is about as close to 'biker gangs' as the average Harley-Davidson rider gets.  

You are correct though that the CEO did not understand his customer base.  I would go on to add that even if the customer base was 100 percent trannies, that it is discriminatory to hire based on race or sexual orientation.  

RickeyHoltsclaw

@just_sayin ; Harley Davidson is the root of biker thuggery...no respect.

https://rickeyholtsclaw.com/2016/03/10/the-truth-about-loud-motorcycles-the-police-wont-or-cant-tell-you/

jack

Do you agree with Harley-Davidson's decision to drop DEI initiatives?

Hello:

I thought the right wing wanted to hire the best people...  No, huh??

excon

just_sayin

jack said:

Do you agree with Harley-Davidson's decision to drop DEI initiatives?

Hello:

I thought the right wing wanted to hire the best people...  No, huh??

excon

You are right, Jack.  The right wing wants to hire the best person for the job, regardless of their race or sexual orientation.  The right wing does not support quotas.  If the best person for the job is a [pick a color] [pick a sex] person, then that is who should be hired.  That differs from some lefties who believe one's race and sex are job qualifications or disqualifiers. 

EvePhantom

@just_sayin ; you know what you are right lol its like wild hogs level cringe, just watched an ex hells angel on vogue or some sht explaining how he turned states cause hells angels are nice guys at heart maybe the rot set in long before this moment of madness, maybe DEI does suits them and their customers, middle class guilt certainly wont help the company out of its self dug hole maybe they will be successful in converting those middle aged dads in to Kris Tyson types, that's the only way to save the company now lean in to the trans money cause the entire middle class is experiencing symptoms of sever mental illness, lord knows the depraved Dems are handing out money hand over fist to fill seats at conventions they should do a Harley partner ship since that is their new crew 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@jack ; What does a demon possessed Democrat-Progressive know about "best people?"  You advocate for the murder of babies, sexual perversion, Marxism...what do you know about "best" other than the demonic?

just_sayin

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@just_sayin ; Harley Davidson is the root of biker thuggery...no respect.

https://rickeyholtsclaw.com/2016/03/10/the-truth-about-loud-motorcycles-the-police-wont-or-cant-tell-you/

Rickey, I didn't know you had your own website.  Good for you.

Your article is very well documented.  That said, remember less is more.  When I paste it into Word its 209 pages long and over 29,000 words.  No one will read your article - no matter how well documented it is.  I realize that you have what appears to be several sections on the same page with several different topics - but they should be separated out to their own page.  Generally, someone who works with webpages will tell you to keep your content to 300–700 words on average.  If it needs to be longer to break it into sections.  Remember, you are writing a blog, not a book.

Your page https://rickeyholtsclaw.com/, is laid out better. If possible though you should have either different pages for each blog entry or use accordions to hide content until someone selects the specific blog entry.  

RickeyHoltsclaw

@just_sayin ; Thank you...the article was built over time...I fought the bikers in Houston over their abuse of the citizens in my area of responsibility...they rallied City Hall en mass twice in an effort to stop my enforcement initiatives...I know people probably don't read the whole thing but it documents almost every facet of vehicular noise abuse and the impotency of law enforcement to intercede on behalf of those who are most endangered by the bully, illegal, behavior...Control-F takes you to areas of the article for research...you'll find some of the material discussed in the article broken down into subsections or more condensed articles on my site. Thanks.

https://rickeyholtsclaw.com/2023/04/01/loud-biker-thuggery-and-the-us-epa-a-history/

jack

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@just_sayin

Thank you...the article was built over time...I fought the bikers in Houston over their abuse of the citizens.

Hello Rickey:

I wanna thank you as  well..  Loud-biker-thuggery is a problem where I live too.

excon

EvePhantom

Knew it, Knew Rick was a gem! 

just_sayin

I just read where Jack Daniels has ended their DEI programs also:

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/jack-daniels-renounces-woke-agenda-latest-iconic-us-brand-bring-sanity-back-business

I don't know if they did so out of genuine repentance for supporting discriminatory hiring and supplier policies, or if they just didn't want to end up like the Queen of Beers, Bud Light.  Either way, it was the right choice to stop discriminating in hiring and awarding contracts. Racism is wrong, even the racism the woke say is right.

EvePhantom

@just_sayin Blackrock and vanguards DEI money well must have dried up for some reason, this isn't necessarily a good sign, if the money is not going to Failing DEI initiatives where we can watch with glee as it is wasted where is it being routed too?

smells like another big event in the global narrative is coming, I mean combine this with market manipulator buffet pulling his assets in to cash and something tectonic must be on the way.

remember the CEO exodus in the months leading up to the plandemic? they all knew exactly what was coming! money doesn't move unless it has reason too. 

Bogan

@just_sayin ;    It is sad to me, that so many, especially those on the left, think their racism is good racism.  They genuinely believe it is OK to discriminate against someone if they are of a certain race.  

The fly in your ointment being, that your advocacy for racial equality is the very premise which completely justifies DEI in the first place.     There are only two explanations as to why some races are either disproportionately successful or disproportionately dysfunctional.     I have challenged you to think up a third which would get you off the hook.   I am still waiting.  (tap, tap, tap)  Isn't it time that you conceded that my premise is the correct one?   

just_sayin

Bogan said:

@just_sayin ;    It is sad to me, that so many, especially those on the left, think their racism is good racism.  They genuinely believe it is OK to discriminate against someone if they are of a certain race.  

The fly in your ointment being, that your advocacy for racial equality is the very premise which completely justifies DEI in the first place.     There are only two explanations as to why some races are either disproportionately successful or disproportionately dysfunctional.     I have challenged you to think up a third which would get you off the hook.   I am still waiting.  (tap, tap, tap)  Isn't it time that you conceded that my premise is the correct one?   

Bogie,  I have provided your example - Appalachia.  The people of Appalachia are poorer and less educated than other parts of the US.  Is this because of their race?  98 percent of them are white.  Their test scores are generally lower than minorities that live in the same states where the mountains run.  

Its not their race that has caused their economic circumstances, but the mountains themselves.  It is hard to get trucks that can navigate the turns of mountain roads and the high grades of the roads.  Especially, difficult is getting those semi-trucks up and down mountains in the winter.  As a result, the mountains don't have a lot of the infrastructure that other areas do.  There are fewer jobs and industries, there are fewer people living in those regions, there are very few academic institutions.  Factor in other things such as a high rate of single parents, high oxy use rate, a culturally low view of education, and high poverty, and you see why the Appalachian area is struggling.

You keep making the mistake of thinking correlation means causation.  It does not.  Using YOUR logic I could say that the Appalachian people are poor because they are almost exclusively white.  But that correlation does not equal causation.  Do you think the people of Appalachia are poor and less educated because they are white?  If not, then your must recognize that your argument is flawed.  Race does not equal intelligence.

EvePhantom

@just_sayin you said "its not their race its the mountains themselves" this is not quite correct. Appalachia falls within the rust belt communities (communities where factory's where switched off) there resides under the Appalachia mountains volumes of Coal.

Appalachia is certainly not 'inaccessible' Holler roads are everywhere cutting through the mountains like a lattice.

Dirty Disgusting Dems made it more  difficult for coal companies to operate with red tape and climate based regulations. 

the people of Appalachia don't choose not to work they have been put out of work by force of government regulation. Coal jobs that remain are having to offer 100k a year to find people willing as 30-40% of the young where so impacted by the loss of jobs their parents sustained during the democrat close down they turned to the drugs. where the mines to be reopened  Appalachia could recover very quickly as these are high paying hard working jobs and the  Appalachians are by God among the hardest working in America, without their grandparents there would'nt be a New York city (Which runs on steam did you know). 

the reason they are not open is 2 fold

- Climate Lies (DEI based)
- Gov regulation (Race Based) 

If the inhabitants of Appalachia where predominantly black and made to live in the squalor the current residents are the uproar would be almost as potent as when a crack head dies under the knee of a cop having swallowed all the drugs.

the only reason  Appalachia is left to rot is because the current government considers 'Whites' as worthless to their current narrative, any other race or culture would receive help as evidenced by the Venezuelans being handed $10k checks , homes and phones in NY.

the truth is if you are white in 2024 America you are with 100% certainty 'treated differently'

the worst part of all the reason for the different treatments seems to be revenge for ancestral crimes, the remit of the fascist!  

just_sayin

@EvePhantom
I can only speak to the area of Appalachia on the Virginia/Kentucky and Virginia/West Virginia border.  Where I was born, coal production has been going down since the early 90's.  There are some natural gas production, but you only need a handful of people compared to coal production.  You are correct that coal production drove the region though.  Coal pays very well compared to other jobs in the area.  And when it disappears, this creates a ripple effect.  Shops close, and people move.  Most coal mine towns have experienced a dramatic drop in population.

The roads are a problem.  It doesn't make sense to have large plants in the mountains because the area is so far off of the main roads.  The extra gas and the toll on the trucks is a lot.  Throughout history, the most populated regions have been on the lower levels, often near large water sources.  People in mountains have historically always been poorer.  They are near the trade routes. 

EvePhantom

@just_sayin the cost to benefit on coal at the minute is huge, this is why the few that remain are able to offer 100k contracts to unskilled labour, the biggest buyer is china and India and they are running out. china is willing to build entire towns and cities in Africa in exchange for coal to feed their machine. The US is an exporter of coal to China but trade tariffs and economic warfare have cut the lucrative market off. 

the infrastructure tends to come with the industry, main roads wont be built unless there is a benefit. the Hollers where built when they were considered of benefit there's no reason a main connecting road couldn't be built by the industry itself where the industry there.

Faster Roads = Faster Production = Faster Bigger Profit.

Unfortunately neither the Roads or the industry can be built up while climate regulation cripples them. The Appalachians will remain closed for business so long as the rich want to maintain nature as their 'holiday spot' There is also a massive influx of retirees heading in to the south Appalachian's 

for all the stunning beauty of the place it will never be able to be truly enjoyed without the jobs industry and success required to sustain life there. the rich want it for them selves and are buying swaths of it privatising it for their own greed ridden pursuits

Norfolk and Western own the biggest chunk as they route goods, services and people through with no thought to stop off and maybe invest in some community spirit, this is what the Union territory lacks, Down in Texas most companies try to build success for everybody to enjoy, up north everything feeds Sodom & Gomora with no fks given about the in between.

America needs its 'Americans' Back if it is to survive this dirty democrat onslaught. trump is 100% right to be wanting the 80s America back, sure it wasn't perfect but it was dam close.

one thing I will say is the people of Appalachia might be down but they are certainly not out the American spirit to succeed against all odds is alive and well ... 


Behold America when it sets the needle and the spoon down and gets back to work!
       

Bogan

@EvePhantom

I once lived in the same house in Balmain, Sydney, with the head of the Australian Hells Angels., Geoffrey Arthur Burns.      Geoffrey was a nice guy, even though he was a silly as a two bob watch.    He went to visit his fellow club members in the USA who were not nice guys,    They murdered him.

Bogan

@EvePhantom ;   @just_sayin the cost to benefit on coal at the minute is huge, this is why the few that remain are able to offer 100k contracts to unskilled labour, the biggest buyer is china and India and they are running out. china is willing to build entire towns and cities in Africa in exchange for coal to feed their machine. The US is an exporter of coal to China but trade tariffs and economic warfare have cut the lucrative market off. 

Iron ore and coal are Australia's most important and profitable exports, by a big margin.      The left wing city loonies who ahve a religious objection to coal can succeed in stopping Australia's coal exports, but in the end they will fail because the Australian economy (what remains if it) will crash.        Only wealthy people can afford potty ideas.      Desperately poor people with brains tend to think straight.   So, ultimately, the leftist loonies will fail, but not before doing a hell of a lot of damage to their own people's welfare. 

The fact  hat China needs Australia's high quality, low sulphur coal was evidenced by the embargo those CCP idiots put on Australian coal, after our Prime Minister asked for an impartial UN inquiry into what caused Covid-19.      The CCP idiots were unaware that their own coal driven electricity generators could only work on high quality, low sulphur Australian coal.      There were widespread blackouts all through China until the CCP figured out a way to buy Australian coal on the sly to save face.     They had Pakistan import the coal and then ship it via rail to China.      Of course, this massively increased the cost of coal in China but this is what Deep State bureaucrats do when they make idiotic decisions based upon saving their faces.

The TV series "From the Fiery Furnace" displayed that coal was once so crucial to the German economy, that if it was discovered that a town sat on a coal field, the German government would move the entire town.  

just_sayin

My heart goes out to Appalachian Americans.  There aren't a lot of easy answers.  

Anyway, I've gotten way off topic.  Anti-justice advocates like Ibram X Kendi use a perverted corrupted definition of justice.  Justice to him is about outcome equality.  Everyone should have the same outcomes.  So he sees meritocracy or picking the best person as 'unjust' and 'white supremacy' or 'patriarchy'.  Kendi advocates methods that discriminate or favor based on someone's race.  Merely being a unfavored race.  He is opposed to process equality.  That's where the process is the same for everyone and the one who does the best is the one selected - like the winners in a basketball game.  

Leftists like Bendi and Harris believe that it is OK to discriminate against someone based on their race or to favor someone because of their race.  Such approaches are not only anti-justice, but they do not address the underlying issues of why certain groups do not do as well.  I'm glad Jack Daniels and Harley-Davidson have repented of their racism.  

Bogan

@just_sayin ;     ....but they do not address the underlying issues of why certain groups do not do as well.  

Nor will you.   Can I ask you a question?      DO you accept evolution?   

just_sayin

John Deere, Jack Daniels, Meta, Tesla, DoorDash, Lyft, Home Depot, Wayfair, and X (formerly Twitter) have all either gotten rid of or reduced their DEI division.  DEI policies are racist policies which hire, promote, or give contracts or work out based on one's race.  It is simply morally unjust to discriminate against an individual based on her race in hiring, promotion, or awarding work or contracts. To have reached this conclusion a company would have to dehumanize its employees and instead of seeing them as individuals, see each person merely as an automaton of their race and then judge them based on their group affiliation.  Any system of justice that stops at the group level, and does not go down to the individual is not real justice, but a perversion of it.  True justice is committed to rewarding or punishing each individual based on her own merits.

The fact that so many leftists sincerely believe that the racism that they openly support is good and holy racism is evidence of how the principles of justice have eroded and have been corrupted in the US.   

Bogan

@just_sayin ;     The fact that so many leftists sincerely believe that the racism that they openly support is good and holy racism is evidence of how the principles of justice have eroded and have been corrupted in the US.   

The fact that so many people who have Christian ideals think that all races are equal, that they refuse to acknowledge the elephant in the room, is destroying Judeo-Christian civilisation.       Like the Muslims, it is time to update your religion to conform to self evident reality.  

Bogan

@just_sayin ;  Oh, and you did not answer the question, which I think is very unchristian of you.  

just_sayin

Bogan said:

@just_sayin ;  Oh, and you did not answer the question, which I think is very unchristian of you.  

It is kind of off topic, but I'll answer.  the odds for chemical evolution occurring are about 1 in 10 to the 40,000th power.  Anything over 1 in 10 to the 50th power is statistically considered so miniscule that it is considered miracle level.  According to the book the Anthropic Cosmological Principle, written by atheists, there are at least 10 miracle level problems with chemical evolution at the different initial stages.  So, if evolution occurred, its a miracle - maybe 10 miracles.  And miracles are evidence of God.  

I've heard a lot of views on the first 11 chapters of Genesis and know a lot of Christian theologians hold different views.  My faith is not dependent upon evolution being true or not.  The evidence suggests that chemical evolution is not possible without intelligence guiding it.  

just_sayin

Bogan said:

@just_sayin ;  Oh, and you did not answer the question, which I think is very unchristian of you.  

Bogie,  to you being unchristian is a good thing.  I think you were trying to give me a compliment.  Anyway, I'll take it that way.  

just_sayin

I saw where Ford Motor Company has announced that it is dropping its racist DEI policies too.  I just hope this is a true repentance, and they aren't now going to try and hide their racism.

Ford walks back 'woke' DEI policies, joining growing list of US companies

Bogan

@just_sayin

JS quote   It is kind of off topic, but I'll answer.  the odds for chemical evolution occurring are about 1 in 10 to the 40,000th power. 

Since I have no way of verifying that figure, I will take it with a grain of salt.    I give it as much credence as the “statistical facts” from climate alarmists that the world is going to end three years ago.

 

JS quote  Anything over 1 in 10 to the 50th power is statistically considered so miniscule that it is considered miracle level.  According to the book the Anthropic Cosmological Principle, written by atheists, there are at least 10 miracle level problems with chemical evolution at the different initial stages.  So, if evolution occurred, its a miracle - maybe 10 miracles.  And miracles are evidence of God.  

 I agree that how it came about that within one insignificant galaxy among hundreds of billions, one insignificant star among 200 billion had a rocky planet in the “goldilocks zone” which was able to first create life, then through evolution develop a species of primates who had the ability to think and reason, is almost miraculous.       Although, since the universe seems to be infinite, just how common such an event is in the universe is something we just do not know, yet.

 

JS quote      I've heard a lot of views on the first 11 chapters of Genesis and know a lot of Christian theologians hold different views.  My faith is not dependent upon evolution being true or not.  The evidence suggests that chemical evolution is not possible without intelligence guiding it.  

 Yeah, yeah.    The earth is 6000 years old and some God made a human by blowing on some dust.      Sorry mate, it is difficult for me to understand how anybody could believe in such a fairy tale?     It just goes to show how much people are willing to sublimate their rational minds to believe in something which they desperately want to believe in. 

just_sayin

Bogan said:

@just_sayin

JS quote   It is kind of off topic, but I'll answer.  the odds for chemical evolution occurring are about 1 in 10 to the 40,000th power. 

Since I have no way of verifying that figure, I will take it with a grain of salt.    I give it as much credence as the “statistical facts” from climate alarmists that the world is going to end three years ago.

 

JS quote  Anything over 1 in 10 to the 50th power is statistically considered so miniscule that it is considered miracle level.  According to the book the Anthropic Cosmological Principle, written by atheists, there are at least 10 miracle level problems with chemical evolution at the different initial stages.  So, if evolution occurred, its a miracle - maybe 10 miracles.  And miracles are evidence of God.  

 I agree that how it came about that within one insignificant galaxy among hundreds of billions, one insignificant star among 200 billion had a rocky planet in the “goldilocks zone” which was able to first create life, then through evolution develop a species of primates who had the ability to think and reason, is almost miraculous.       Although, since the universe seems to be infinite, just how common such an event is in the universe is something we just do not know, yet.

 

JS quote      I've heard a lot of views on the first 11 chapters of Genesis and know a lot of Christian theologians hold different views.  My faith is not dependent upon evolution being true or not.  The evidence suggests that chemical evolution is not possible without intelligence guiding it.  

 Yeah, yeah.    The earth is 6000 years old and some God made a human by blowing on some dust.      Sorry mate, it is difficult for me to understand how anybody could believe in such a fairy tale?     It just goes to show how much people are willing to sublimate their rational minds to believe in something which they desperately want to believe in. 

From Google AI:

The odds of abiogenesis, or the process of life arising from non-living matter, are very low: 

• Chance of obtaining all one form or another in 300,000 bases: One in two to the 300,000 power, or about one in 10 to the 90,000 power 
• Probability of getting one DNA molecule right: One in 10 to the 89,900 power, or essentially zero 
• Abiogenesis probability per unit time per set of building blocks: Ranges from Pa ∼ 10−36 to Pa ∼ 10−30 

The transition from non-life to life has never been observed experimentally.

The guy you like to quote, Fred Hoyle, made the observation of 1 to 10 in the 40,000 power.  It was based on just getting the essential chemicals for all the essential amino acids in the same place at the same time.  The 1 in 10 to the 90,000 power is just to get the right 'handiness' (chirality) for all the basses of a DNA strand to spin the right way - if they spin the wrong way the strand will either not work or it will overheat be useless.  The last calculation is just a calculation on time of the building blocks forming in the right order. The 10-30 means 1 chance in a 1 followed by 30 zeros times.  All of these calculations are not really considering the complex reactions needed at each step.  So, Bogie, all these numbers are Way underselling the problem.  If you want to put your faith in something that ridiculously infinitesimal, I can't stop you.  But I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist.  I just can't believe that such fairy tales are true.

Bogan

@just_sayin

JS quote   The odds of abiogenesis, or the process of life arising from non-living matter, are very low: 

 The human race does not know that yet.     It is very possible (even probable) that life is very common in the universe provided that a planet has liquid water, hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, an energy source, and is within the “goldilocks zone” of a star. 

 

 JS quote  Chance of obtaining all one form or another in 300,000 bases: One in two to the 300,000 power, or about one in 10 to the 90,000 power 

·         Probability of getting one DNA molecule right: One in 10 to the 89,900 power, or essentially zero 

·         Abiogenesis probability per unit time per set of building blocks: Ranges from Pa ∼ 10−36 to Pa ∼ 10−30 

 What are the odds of a God popping into existence with the power to create hundreds of millions of galaxies, each containing hundreds of billions of stars, out of nothing?  

 

JS quote The transition from non-life to life has never been observed experimentally.

 Neither has some God creating a universe out of nothing, or a human male out of dust.

 

 JS quote   The guy you like to quote, Fred Hoyle, made the observation of 1 to 10 in the 40,000 power.  It was based on just getting the essential chemicals for all the essential amino acids in the same place at the same time.  The 1 in 10 to the 90,000 power is just to get the right 'handiness' (chirality) for all the basses of a DNA strand to spin the right way - if they spin the wrong way the strand will either not work or it will overheat be useless.  The last calculation is just a calculation on time of the building blocks forming in the right order. The 10-30 means 1 chance in a 1 followed by 30 zeros times.  All of these calculations are not really considering the complex reactions needed at each step.  So, Bogie, all these numbers are Way underselling the problem.  If you want to put your faith in something that ridiculously infinitesimal, I can't stop you.  But I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist.  I just can't believe that such fairy tales are true.

 Just because I think that Fred was roughly on the right track with his “steady state” theory, does not mean that I agree with him on anything else.      The next NASA/ ESA  mission to Jupiter will have a probe which can detect if life exists on the water fountains being sprayed into space by Saturn's moon, Enceladus.      If that probe detects life on Enceladus, then once again, science will have driven superstition backwards, and religious people like your good self will have to once again retreat to a more defensible position.  Ricky and Pamela Johnson just won’t believe it anyway.   

just_sayin

@Bogan
The human race does not know that yet.     It is very possible (even probable) that life is very common in the universe provided that a planet has liquid water, hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, an energy source, and is within the “goldilocks zone” of a star. 

Actually, its chemical evolution researchers who are talking about the difficulties of chemical evolution.  These chemist know the problems and know that there are no solutions for them.  If you like, I can go over the odds of each problem step with you again.  Pretending the problem is not real, may help the atheist to feel better, but just know, its the truth that will set you free.  If you think I'm wrong about the problems with chemical evolution, please do your own research.

 What are the odds of a God popping into existence with the power to create hundreds of millions of galaxies, each containing hundreds of billions of stars, out of nothing?  

Well we know that according to Big Bang cosmology that the universe had a beginning.  Therefore the cause of the universe must exist beyond the universe.  That means that the cause must be immaterial, timeless, and spaceless, because matter, time, and space don't come into being until the big bang.  We also know that the cause must be powerful enough to create universes, and we also know from looking at the 261 finely tuned factors necessary for a life permitting universe that our universe is finely tuned, so the cause must have a mind in order to create such a universe when it is much more likely that a non-life permitting universe would be created.  So, I'd say the odds look pretty good, given the evidence.

Neither has some God creating a universe out of nothing, or a human male out of dust.

I'm confused by your comment.  Isn't it the basic belief of those who believe life came from non-life that life essentially arose from 'dust'.  If you can believe that, even though the odds are way over 1 in 10 to the 90,000 power.  Then it seems like its OK for me to believe a God did that.  Chemical evolution needs at least 10 miracle level events to have happened, just to get a simple single strand of working DNA - not even a life form yet.  You are willing to believe life came from dust needing 10 miracles to make it happen, but think it weird that I can believe God could make man from dust in 1 miracle.  

Just because I think that Fred was roughly on the right track with his “steady state” theory, does not mean that I agree with him on anything else.      The next NASA/ ESA  mission to Jupiter will have a probe which can detect if life exists on the water fountains being sprayed into space by Saturn's moon, Enceladus.      If that probe detects life on Enceladus, then once again, science will have driven superstition backwards, and religious people like your good self will have to once again retreat to a more defensible position.  Ricky and Pamela Johnson just won’t believe it anyway.   

You should get together with Fact, 21CenturyIconoclast and MayCaesar and form a barbershop quartet where you could all sing the science of the gaps melody over and over.  LOL.  Atheists are always making promises about what science will find out, but ignoring the what science has already discovered.  

Bogan

@just_sayin

JS quote  Actually, its chemical evolution researchers who are talking about the difficulties of chemical evolution.

 It may be “difficult”, but it happened. 

 

 JS quote     These chemist know the problems and know that there are no solutions for them. 

 500 years ago, there were no “solutions” as to what lightning was.      Religious people like your good self thought that it was God displaying his wrath.     They also believed that because so many high church steeples were hit by lightning, that proved that the congregations in those churches were doing something to displease God.      When science explained what lightning really was, and proposed to protect church steeples from lightning strikes by installing lightning rods, this was bitterly opposed by all of the Christian denominations.     This denial of reality continued until lightning hit a church in Italy where hundreds of tons of gunpowder were being stored, and the resulting explosion wiped the town of Brescia almost off the map, killing hundreds of people.     The churches then said "Hmmmm, maybe it isn't Gods wrath?   ( and maybe we should not store gunpowder in churches)    They all began installing lightning rods to protect their steeples.       Which just goes to show that even religious people can think straight when things get so bad that they have to recognise the reality staring them in the face.   

 

JS quote  If you like, I can go over the odds of each problem step with you again.  Pretending the problem is not real, may help the atheist to feel better, but just know, its the truth that will set you free.  If you think I'm wrong about the problems with chemical evolution, please do your own research.

 Which is akin to a climate scientist telling me that he is willing to show me his “research” which “proves” that the earth's poles should have been ice free by 2015.   

 JS quote   Well we know that according to Big Bang cosmology that the universe had a beginning. 

 “We” don’t know.    I accepted the Big Bang theory until I realised that it was too full of holes which nobody could explain away to me. 

 

JS quote   Therefore the cause of the universe must exist beyond the universe.  That means that the cause must be immaterial, timeless, and spaceless, because matter, time, and space don't come into being until the big bang.  We also know that the cause must be powerful enough to create universes, and we also know from looking at the 261 finely tuned factors necessary for a life permitting universe that our universe is finely tuned, so the cause must have a mind in order to create such a universe when it is much more likely that a non-life permitting universe would be created.  So, I'd say the odds look pretty good, given the evidence.

 My unprovable premise is, that the universe has always existed, in one form or another, and it always will.     My unproven BELIEF is, that the “red shift” is an illusion caused by light slowing down in space over time.    

JS quote   I'm confused by your comment.  Isn't it the basic belief of those who believe life came from non-life that life essentially arose from 'dust'.  If you can believe that, even though the odds are way over 1 in 10 to the 90,000 power.  Then it seems like its OK for me to believe a God did that.  Chemical evolution needs at least 10 miracle level events to have happened, just to get a simple single strand of working DNA - not even a life form yet.  You are willing to believe life came from dust needing 10 miracles to make it happen, but think it weird that I can believe God could make man from dust in 1 miracle. 

 It makes a lot more sense to me than some fairy tale about some god sitting around in empty space since forever who not only self created, but had the power to create hundreds of billions of galaxies, each containing hundreds of billions of stars, (and God knows how many planets and asterioids),out of nothing, and all for the benefit of a species of intelligent primates who for almost all of their history were unaware that the rest of the universe even existed.    

JS quote  You should get together with Fact, 21CenturyIconoclast and MayCaesar and form a barbershop quartet where you could all sing the science of the gaps melody over and over.  LOL.  Atheists are always making promises about what science will find out, but ignoring the what science has already discovered. 

 I prefer to keep well away from Factfinder and MayCaesar, as I consider them to be just trolls.    They are not on DI to promote debate, they are here to stifle debate.    Anyhoo, every time science advances, superstition and magic retreats.   

just_sayin

Coors is now stepping back from its DEI initiatives.  Like all the other large companies, I hope this is true, and they have truly repented of practicing racism.  I just hope that they aren't going to become more clandestine with their racist DEI initiatives.

Bogan

Yoo hoo, JS, where aaaaaaarrrre Youuuuuuuuu?

just_sayin

@Bogan
Hey Bogie,  Are you wanting to debate abiogenies?  This isn't the right forum for that.  Go to one of the other debates on creation and help out @FactFinder, @Joeseph, @Barnadot, @MayCaesar, and @21CenturyIconoclast.  They won't mind, they are getting their butts kicked anyway.  

Hey, this was a great week - a bunch of big companies dropped their racist DEI programs. If you wanted to make some pro-racist argument like a DEI supporter, go for it.  You know I would never intentionally ignore you.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

@Bogan
Hey Bogie,  Are you wanting to debate abiogenies?  This isn't the right forum for that.  Go to one of the other debates on creation and help out.  They won't mind, they are getting their butts kicked anyway.  

You've been running from everyone.

Bogan

@Factfinder

If you wish to endlessly bang on about creation, just because you like stirring Ricky up, go right ahead.    I have had my say on that topic and it is a waste of time trying to make people who believe in religious magic that their beliefs make no sense.       ONE topic on creation would be enough, so why you and Rick, and all your mates keep flooding the front page with creation topics, and dreaming up ever more sites on the same endlessly debated topic, is beyond me?    Do you want to to contribute to these topics because you and your fellow troll JulesKorngold are struggling?    

Factfinder

Bogan said:

@Factfinder

If you wish to endlessly bang on about creation, just because you like stirring Ricky up, go right ahead.    I have had my say on that topic and it is a waste of time trying to make people who believe in religious magic that their beliefs make no sense.       ONE topic on creation would be enough, so why you and Rick, and all your mates keep flooding the front page with creation topics, and dreaming up ever more sites on the same endlessly debated topic, is beyond me?    Do you want to to contribute to these topics because you and your fellow troll JulesKorngold are struggling?    

Why don't you crawl back under your rock?

Bogan

Factfinder quote   Why don't you crawl back under your rock?

Another deep, logical, and well reasoned argument by Factfinder.    

Factfinder

Bogan said:

Factfinder quote   Why don't you crawl back under your rock?

Another deep, logical, and well reasoned argument by Factfinder.    

Thanks.