Do you support Trump's border wall like Kamala Harris does? Or do you oppose it like Kamala Harris?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@just_sayin ; I fully support Trump's border wall initiatives and I believe that you can't have a Nation or true sovereignty void secure borders and strict immigration policies. Kamala Harris is a political whore and will say anything to achieve and maintain power...Harris is a Marxist-Communist.

jack

just_sayin said:

Kamala Harris called Trump's border wall 'Un-American', yet she has recently supported a bill that rebuilds part of the wall she fought to tear down.  So which side of Harris' flip-flop are you on?

Hello just_:

As a descendant of immigrants, I support immigration..  I particularly support asylum.  Pursuant to current immigration laws, it takes around 2 years and several thousands of dollars to come in that way..  Of course, that doesn't work for most new comers, so I'm all for getting here any way you can..  Certainly, once here they become model residents. 

Yeah, I know..  Trump's got you scared.  Trump hates migrants..  We knew that from the beginning..  But, I didn't think he'd enroll the entire right wing into his racist ways.  After all, when migrants reach the border, they see two signs.  One says, DO NOT CROSS..  And, the other says HELP WANTED.  (that snarky line is for Bogan.  He loves it when I do that)

excon

RickeyHoltsclaw

@jack ; It is not racist or bigoted to desire legal immigration, vetting of immigrants and standards for education and morality. It is the fool who opens a Nation's borders and allows other Nations to empty their prisons and asylums into their home to abuse, pilfer, murder, their citizenry. Jack is a mindless liberal fool.

just_sayin

jack said:

just_sayin said:

Kamala Harris called Trump's border wall 'Un-American', yet she has recently supported a bill that rebuilds part of the wall she fought to tear down.  So which side of Harris' flip-flop are you on?

Hello just_:

As a decedent of immigrants, I support immigration..  I particularly support asylum.  Pursuant to current immigration laws, it takes around 2 years and several thousands of dollars to come in that way..  Of course, that doesn't work for most new comers, so I'm all for getting here any way you can..  Certainly, once here they become model residents. 

Yeah, I know..  Trump's got you scared.  Trump hates migrants..  We knew that from the beginning..  But, I didn't think he'd enroll the entire right wing into his racist ways.  

After all, when migrants reach the border, they see two signs.  One says, DO NOT CROSS..  And, the other says HELP WANTED.  (that snarky line is for Bogan.  He loves it when I do that)

excon

The 1951 Refugee Convention and the 1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees says that asylum seekers must stop at the first safe country they come to.  Is that really the case?  If not, then these asylum seekers are really seeking more than asylum and we need to be honest about that.  The problem comes in because they are allowed into the country before their case is processed.  Many will make their asylum case, but once they are rejected, they will skip their deportation hearing.  If someone was suppose to be deported but then 'ran away' then it isn't right to keep calling them asylum seekers, Jack.  They are unlawful entrants at that point.  

I won't get into the actual statistics of unlawful entrant crime rates - you are wrong in your premise.  You are appealing to studies of legal immigrants who have a much different motive for not committing crimes, not unlawful entrants.  But for the sake of argument, let's assume most unlawful entrants never commit any crimes ever (which is lie because the average  unlawful entrant commits an average of over a half dozen felonies each year, involving fraud, identity theft, SS ID theft, forgery, and perjury).  But lets assume that most don't commit any crimes.  Every crime committed though, is a crime that could have been prevented.  Every rape, every murder, could have been prevented if that person wasn't in this country.  You can't do the crime, if you aren't in the country to do it.  

You have mistaken concern for committing crimes with racism.  Shame on you.  You may think it is OK to commit such crimes as identify theft, SS theft, perjury, fraud, and forgery, but natural born citizens go to jail for these crimes, Jack.  Why should someone who is in the country unlawfully get a pass on the crimes they have committed? Illegal labor costs the average Black worker between $1,000 - $2,000 a year in reduced wages - that was according to Obama's Civil Rights Commission on Illegal Immigration.  Why is it just to take a thousand or 2 thousand dollars out of a Black man's pocket every year?  Well, Jack, why is it?

Bogan

@jack

Jack quote  I particularly support asylum. 

Then be prepared to welcome around four billion people from sheethole countries into your country, where you can pay for their upkeep.     The penny has already dropped in “sanctuary cities” where they rob their old poor to pay for their newly imported new poor. 

Jack quote   Pursuant to current immigration laws, it takes around 2 years and several thousands of dollars to come in that way.. Of course, that doesn't work for most new comers, so I'm all for getting here any way you can.

 If you do not have a border, you do not have a country.    The left and right UK governments thought exactly the way that you do.   Now, the UK is approaching civil war.  

Jack quote   Certainly, once here they become model residents. 

 All I can do is shake my head in pitying wonder at the insanity of that remark.     With “logic” like that, I am glad you are not on my side. 

 

Jack quote   Yeah, I know..  Trump's got you scared. 

 How you figure that is beyond me?      It is obvious that there is something seriously wrong with your capacity to think. 

 

Jack quotes   Trump hates migrants..

 I think it would be fair to say that Trump dislikes migrants from sheethole countries who come into the USA with their hands out for alms, who then create ethnic ghettoes that mirror exactly the same sheethole countries that they came from. 

 

Jack quote        We knew that from the beginning..  But, I didn't think he'd enroll the entire right wing into his racist ways. 

 He is “enrolling” a lot of leftists too.     Unlike yourself, lot of leftists have grown a brain and figured out that more illegal immigrants means less welfare money for them. 

 

Jack quote       After all, when migrants reach the border, they see two signs.  One says, DO NOT CROSS..  And, the other says HELP WANTED.  (that snarky line is for Bogan.  He loves it when I do that)

 Correct.     The richest people in the USA know that they can use identity politics to split the working class vote and get masses of cheap labour for themselves.      Car washers, gardeners, fruit pickers, maids, chauffeurs, and pool boys were getting too expensive under Trump.    Maybe when the government DEI's your job and tosses you out into the already defunct job market, you may yet be capable of growing a brain, too?  

just_sayin

Increased Illegal Immigration Brings Increased Crime: Almost 2/3 of Federal Arrests Involve Noncitizens

Bogan

Thank God that he and his son never said "Let there be no borders", or I would be debating against JS who would justify his stance with his religious teachings.  

just_sayin

Bogan said:

Thank God that he and his son never said "Let there be no borders", or I would be debating against JS who would justify his stance with his religious teachings.  

Odd you mention that, Bogie, because the Old Testament does have a lot to say about how to treat strangers in your land.  I believe in having a lot of compassion.  However, we are to respect the laws of the land also.  This is where I have focused my argument.  

Bogan

@just_sayin ;     I believe in having a lot of compassion. 

So did the British Church of England clergy, who bent over backwards helping Muslim criminals and rapists to stay in the UK so that they could prey on heir own parishioners.     The "refugee" sheep were wolves, and the UK is now  getting close to a civil war.   Like the Muslims, reform your religion and realise that all people are not equal under God.   Many of them have their own Gods, who hate you for worshipping what they truly believe is your false God.       That God tells them to be wolves and eat the sheep.   

just_sayin

Bogan said:

@just_sayin ;     I believe in having a lot of compassion. 

So did the British Church of England clergy, who bent over backwards helping Muslim criminals and rapists to stay in the UK so that they could prey on heir own parishioners.     The "refugee" sheep were wolves, and the UK is now  getting close to a civil war.   Like the Muslims, reform your religion and realise that all people are not equal under God.   Many of them have their own Gods, who hate you for worshipping what they truly believe is your false God.       That God tells them to be wolves and eat the sheep.   

Compassion doesn't mean you don't have rules and don't enforce them.  @Jack would be fine with ignoring the felonies that unlawful entrants routinely commit.  The average illegal alien routinely commits multiple felonies –forgery, Social Security fraud, identity theft, and perjury.  I don't think that is just to ignore crimes of unlawful entrants, that you would not ignore if they were legal citizens who had committed those same crimes.

If someone is in this country illegally then they are not authorized to work.  If they are collecting a paycheck, even under the table from a crooked chicken plucker with a weird poultry fetish ***cough***@Barnardot ***cough***, it is a crime.  I get they want to have a life that only capitalism can give them, but they went about it in an illegal way.  And we should not reward people for committing crimes.  

Bogan

@just_sayin

JS quote   Compassion doesn't mean you don't have rules and don't enforce them.  @Jack would be fine with ignoring the felonies that unlawful entrants routinely commit.  The average illegal alien routinely commits multiple felonies –forgery, Social Security fraud, identity theft, and perjury.  I don't think that is just to ignore crimes of unlawful entrants, that you would not ignore if they were legal citizens who had committed those same crimes.

But the problem is, that fundamentally, you believe that all people are equal.     Therefore, using that logic, it does not matter where people come from or what their group reputation is.      You must believe that almost all of them are basically good with just a few bad apples giving the majority a bad name.    This belief, because belief is what it is, just happens to be wrong.   I know that this is impossible to explain to a person who thinks that the earth is 6000 years old, and that some God created humans instantly out of dust, but I will try anyway.       The importation of certain dysfunctional ethnic groups into western society is tearing western society apart.    Even once very peaceful and overly tolerant societies like Sweden, Denmark, and Holland now realise that the importation of Muslims into their societies has been catastrophic.   The fact that races and cultures are not equal is being appreciated by the public in those countries by having this inconvenient fact rubbed in their faces every day.       Time for you to update your religion.   

 

JS quote  If someone is in this country illegally then they are not authorized to work.  If they are collecting a paycheck, even under the table from a crooked chicken plucker with a weird poultry fetish ***cough***@Barnardot ***cough***, it is a crime.  I get they want to have a life that only capitalism can give them, but they went about it in an illegal way.  And we should not reward people for committing crimes.  

 That is the symptom.     The disease is the belief that all people are equal so it does not matter where they come from.   But obviously, it does matter a lot where they come from.      The Christian ideal that all people are equal has now been usurped by the extreme Left as their own idea to justify open borders and a non-discriminatory immigration program.    If you do not want your own Judeo Christian western civilisation to collapse then reform your religion. 

just_sayin

Bogan said:

@just_sayin

JS quote   Compassion doesn't mean you don't have rules and don't enforce them.  @Jack would be fine with ignoring the felonies that unlawful entrants routinely commit.  The average illegal alien routinely commits multiple felonies –forgery, Social Security fraud, identity theft, and perjury.  I don't think that is just to ignore crimes of unlawful entrants, that you would not ignore if they were legal citizens who had committed those same crimes.

But the problem is, that fundamentally, you believe that all people are equal.     Therefore, using that logic, it does not matter where people come from or what their group reputation is.      You must believe that almost all of them are basically good with just a few bad apples giving the majority a bad name.    This belief, because belief is what it is, just happens to be wrong.   I know that this is impossible to explain to a person who thinks that the earth is 6000 years old, and that some God created humans instantly out of dust, but I will try anyway.       The importation of certain dysfunctional ethnic groups into western society is tearing western society apart.    Even once very peaceful and overly tolerant societies like Sweden, Denmark, and Holland now realise that the importation of Muslims into their societies has been catastrophic.   The fact that races and cultures are not equal is being appreciated by the public in those countries by having this inconvenient fact rubbed in their faces every day.       Time for you to update your religion.   

 

JS quote  If someone is in this country illegally then they are not authorized to work.  If they are collecting a paycheck, even under the table from a crooked chicken plucker with a weird poultry fetish ***cough***@Barnardot ***cough***, it is a crime.  I get they want to have a life that only capitalism can give them, but they went about it in an illegal way.  And we should not reward people for committing crimes.  

 That is the symptom.     The disease is the belief that all people are equal so it does not matter where they come from.   But obviously, it does matter a lot where they come from.      The Christian ideal that all people are equal has now been usurped by the extreme Left as their own idea to justify open borders and a non-discriminatory immigration program.    If you do not want your own Judeo Christian western civilisation to collapse then reform your religion. 

Bogie, if you are talking about equal outcomes then people are unequal - all people are unequal.  Even identical twins have different amounts in their bank account.  If however we are talking about evenly applied processes, then I believe people should be treated equally.  If someone is a better swimmer than me, then they should make the team.  But no one should be favored or discriminated against in competing to make the swim team.  I hope we are defining 'equality' different.  DEI folk think of equality as evenly distributed outcomes.  I've pointed out this is a perversion of Justice because it dehumanizes the individual and makes them just an automaton of their race.  This type of prevented justice is subjective and based on the individuals grouping.  True justice goes all the way down to the individual and is committed to rewarding or punishing the individual for his/her actions.  

I hope your view of equality is not like the racist DEI crowd who believes its OK to discriminate against you if you are not their favored gender or race.  

On another note.  I saw where Harris is blaming Trump for the crappy job she did protecting the border.  OMG, you can't make this up.  That's like blaming the police for causing you to rob a bank.  Is it possible for leftists to deny responsibility for their behavior anymore than they already have?

Bogan

@just_sayin

JS quote   Bogie, if you are talking about equal outcomes then people are unequal - all people are unequal.

But your religion teaches you that all are equal under God. 

 

  JS quote   If however we are talking about evenly applied processes, then I believe people should be treated equally. 

In some cases you are right, in others, dead wrong.   Within western civilisations, every person not suffering from mental or physical handicaps has a right to apply for a license to do anything, but licenses themselves are a form of discrimination where people unfit to take the responsibilities of their licenses seriously, are either sanctioned, or weeded out.    How about equality of religion?    That may have made  lot of sense in 1785 when almost all people in the western world were Christian, of one sort or another.      But treating all religions as equal during an age of Muslim immigration into Christian lands is a silly idea.     It means that you can not enact laws to discriminate against Muslims who are going to discriminate against you, when their population proportions reach critical mass. 

 

JS quote   If someone is a better swimmer than me, then they should make the team.  But no one should be favored or discriminated against in competing to make the swim team. 

  Let us take another example more pertinent to the survival of western civilisation.     If certain demographics are always dysfunctional within whichever western country they live in, with high rates of serious criminal behaviour and high rates of welfare dependency, why is it considered by Christian people like yourself to be wrong to judge individuals by the good or bad group reputations of their particular demographic?           

 

JS quote   I hope we are defining 'equality' different.  DEI folk think of equality as evenly distributed outcomes.  I've pointed out this is a perversion of Justice because it dehumanizes the individual and makes them just an automaton of their race.  This type of prevented justice is subjective and based on the individuals grouping.  True justice goes all the way down to the individual and is committed to rewarding or punishing the individual for his/her actions. 

 Yeah, but once again, your BELIEF that everybody is equal under God means that you can not recognise an evolutionary argument which displays that human demographics are simply not equal.    Because of that, you are in the rather perverse situation of being against DEI while simultaneously agreeing with the basic Christian morality which justifies it.

 

 JS quote         I hope your view of equality is not like the racist DEI crowd who believes its OK to discriminate against you if you are not their favored gender or race.  

It is.    The only difference being that I recognise that everybody is racist.  I have no need to pretend that my racism does not exist while pointing the accusing finger at my opponents.    And unlike your good self, I do not need to believe in a contradiction to make my ideology work.     DEI makes perfect sense, provided that you agree that all races are equal.     Which, as a Christian, you do.     

 

JS quote  On another note.  I saw where Harris is blaming Trump for the crappy job she did protecting the border.  OMG, you can't make this up.  That's like blaming the police for causing you to rob a bank.  Is it possible for leftists to deny responsibility for their behavior anymore than they already have?

 I agree with you on that point.      But it sure looks like a very smelly red herring you are tossing to try and keep me away from discussing the basic contradiction in your Christian thinking.    

just_sayin

@Bogan

But your religion teaches you that all are equal under God. 

Yes in the sense of evenly applied processes, but not evenly distributed outcomes.  God says he will judge people for their actions, but their actions differ from person to person.

n some cases you are right, in others, dead wrong.   Within western civilisations, every person not suffering from mental or physical handicaps has a right to apply for a license to do anything, but licenses themselves are a form of discrimination where people unfit to take the responsibilities of their licenses seriously, are either sanctioned, or weeded out.    How about equality of religion?    That may have made  lot of sense in 1785 when almost all people in the western world were Christian, of one sort or another.      But treating all religions as equal during an age of Muslim immigration into Christian lands is a silly idea.     It means that you can not enact laws to discriminate against Muslims who are going to discriminate against you, when their population proportions reach critical mass. 

It appears to me in your illustration, that part of the evenly applied process is a evaluation of mental risk.  In your religion example, you reverted back to evenly distributed outcome thinking.  Again, the equality I am talking about is evenly applied processes.  A religion's ultimate value is in whether it truly leads one to God.  So, it is rationale to assume that not all religions will lead one to God, but may lead one astray.

 Let us take another example more pertinent to the survival of western civilisation.     If certain demographics are always dysfunctional within whichever western country they live in, with high rates of serious criminal behaviour and high rates of welfare dependency, why is it considered by Christian people like yourself to be wrong to judge individuals by the good or bad group reputations of their particular demographic?    

Because true justice is committed to justice for each INDIVIDUAL, not only justice for their racial group.  DEI is racist because it believes it is OK to mistreat an individual of one racial group if it helps another overall racial group.  DEI has no concern for the individual.  Therefore it is not justice but a horribly wicked perversion of it.

Yeah, but once again, your BELIEF that everybody is equal under God means that you can not recognise an evolutionary argument which displays that human demographics are simply not equal.    Because of that, you are in the rather perverse situation of being against DEI while simultaneously agreeing with the basic Christian morality which justifies it.

People in different parts of the world may have advantages and disadvantages associated with where they grew up.  For example, if you live around water you were more likely to learn to swim.  If you grew up in the mountains, you probably spent more time outdoors.  If you grew up as a red headed kid, you probably got sunburned easier than someone who grew up in a hotter climate.  However, how we treat people should be based on evenly applied processes, not evenly distributed outcomes.  

The only difference being that I recognise that everybody is racist.  I have no need to pretend that my racism does not exist while pointing the accusing finger at my opponents.    And unlike your good self, I do not need to believe in a contradiction to make my ideology work.     DEI makes perfect sense, provided that you agree that all races are equal.     Which, as a Christian, you do.     

The only race the Bible recognizes is the human race.  It mentions nations, tribes families, clans, religious groups, political groups, but it only ever mentions 1 human race, from 1 set of common ancestors.  

Again, DEI is racist because it has a prevented understanding of equality and defines it as evenly distributed outcomes, rather than evenly applied processes.  It does not consider the interests of the individual but only their racial group.  

I agree with you on that point.      But it sure looks like a very smelly red herring you are tossing to try and keep me away from discussing the basic contradiction in your Christian thinking.    

Red herring???  Bogie, the topic is Kamala Harris and the border wall.  I'm just on topic, not off topic.

Bogan

@just_sayin

JS quote.   Yes in the sense of evenly applied processes, but not evenly distributed outcomes.  God says he will judge people for their actions, but their actions differ from person to person       It appears to me in your illustration, that part of the evenly applied process is a evaluation of mental risk.  In your religion example, you reverted back to evenly distributed outcome thinking.  Again, the equality I am talking about is evenly applied processes.  A religion's ultimate value is in whether it truly leads one to God.  So, it is rationale to assume that not all religions will lead one to God, but may lead one astray.

 What I was referring to, was that no morality can be carved in stone.     Morality changes as the moral imperatives which guide our thinking and ensure the survival of our people change with time.      Freedom of religion once made a lot of sense when there was no really great moral divide between the religions of a western state.       Then along comes something we never thought of.     Muslims who’s moral values are usually diametrically opposed to our own, and who’s religious clerics really are violently hostile to the Christian religions, began immigrating into our people’s, lands in large numbers.    

  Instead of simply realising that our Christian humanitarian principles were inappropriate to dealing with a hostile religion which had crossed our moat and set up shop in our keep, we kept believing in our Christian principles that every human is just the same as every other human.      By failing to adjust our thinking to a new reality, we set the stage for the destruction of our own civilisation.     Even now, with the negative consequences of Muslim immigration perfectly clear, there are many people who still do the three monkey thing and pretend it is not happening. 

 The same can be said for African immigration into western countries.     It is as obvious as the nose on your face, that African descended people are unsuitable candidates for immigration into western society.    Yet western countries go on pretending that it is not, because our Christian humanitarian principles, that all are equal, demand that we deny reality when it comes to minority dysfunction.   

 

JS quote  Because true justice is committed to justice for each INDIVIDUAL, not only justice for their racial group. 

  Where is the justice in imported minorities blaming your own people for their own dysfunction?     Your ideology that people can only be judged as individuals, and never by the reputations (good or bad) of their own demographic groups, is impractical.     Even insurance companies grade car insurance premiums by age and by suburb.      Young drivers, especially young male drivers, are far more likely to engage in irresponsible behaviour that older drivers.     The people in wealthy suburbs are much more responsible that the people in the poorest suburbs.     Even insurance companies are no egalitarians. 

 

JS quote       DEI is racist because it believes it is OK to mistreat an individual of one racial group if it helps another overall racial group. 

 DEI makes perfect sense if you agree that all races are equal.      The problem is that they are not equal.    Your Christian egalitarian ideology needs updating.

 

 JS quote    DEI has no concern for the individual.  Therefore it is not justice but a horribly wicked perversion of it.

 The DEI advocates can say that they are very concerned with the individual outcomes of people from minority groups who are being unfairly discriminated against by white people.     And they can prove that “systemic racism” exists because people like your good self think that all races are equal, so that must be the only explanation. 

 

 JS quote.  People in different parts of the world may have advantages and disadvantages associated with where they grew up.

 Oh wow.    You almost said “evolutionary forces”, but your brains religious circuit breaker tripped out before you could continue thinking.     

 

 JS quote   For example, if you live around water you were more likely to learn to swim.  If you grew up in the mountains, you probably spent more time outdoors.  If you grew up as a red headed kid, you probably got sunburned easier than someone who grew up in a hotter climate.  However, how we treat people should be based on evenly applied processes, not evenly distributed outcomes.  

 Gee willackers, you are almost there.     At the very least you are grudgingly admitting that the environment is a factor in how people look and what their physical abilities are.    You had better be careful repeating that, or your own congregation might burn you at the stake for such heresy. 

 

 JS quote   The only race the Bible recognizes is the human race.  It mentions nations, tribes families, clans, religious groups, political groups, but it only ever mentions 1 human race, from 1 set of common ancestors. 

 It also says that “the sons of Ham” (blacks) are "the hewers of wood and the drawers of water.”      Even God is a racist.

 

JS quote       Again, DEI is racist because it has a prevented understanding of equality

 DEI has exactly the same perception of racial equality that you have.     It then draws a perfectly rational conclusion based upon that false perception, that if all races are equal, and if one race is always poor and one race is always comparatively wealthy, then racial inequality exists which can only be rectified by racial quotas.  

just_sayin

It isn't that Democrats have just ignored the wall, they have enable unlawful entrants to commit crimes.

Migrants flooding NYC’s justice system — making up ‘75% of arrests in Midtown’ — as ‘pathetic’ sanctuary city laws handcuff cops

just_sayin

Why are so many Democrats trying to make it so people in the country illegally can vote?  I thought Democrats collected most of their votes from dead people.  https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/2-investigators-chicago-voters-cast-ballots-from-beyond-the-grave/

Bogan

@just_sayin

You hooooo, JS, you did not reply to may latest above post to you.   Running scared?  

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Just_askin, Just_sayin.

@just_sayin

Wall or fence?

just_sayin

Fredsnephew said:

@just_sayin

Wall or fence?

Depends.  Is the fence tall, difficult to get through, and/or electrified?