What is the one true religion and what is the only true denomination of that religion?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Not sure what you mean by "one true religion." Jesus our Messiah is our Creator and Savior...He is the only Way to eternal life via the forgiveness of sin. Religion, theologically speaking, is a set of rules and regulations and procedures enabling one to earn divine favor with a particular deity. The Holy Spirit tells us in the Canon of Scripture that no man or woman can earn their own salvation but that eternal life is a free gift of grace offered through faith in Jesus as our Messiah.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; Not sure what you mean by "one true religion." Jesus our Messiah is our Creator and Savior...He is the only Way to eternal life via the forgiveness of sin. Religion, theologically speaking, is a set of rules and regulations and procedures enabling one to earn divine favor with a particular deity. The Holy Spirit tells us in the Canon of Scripture that no man or woman can earn their own salvation but that eternal life is a free gift of grace offered through faith in Jesus as our Messiah.

Are you affiliated with a church or are you a lone worshipper? If you belong to a denomination which one? If not why not? In the bible Jesus specifically mentioned building his church on a truth Peter spoke...

Matthew 18:16-18:

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Then as you know the Saints in Acts which Paul became one of, went to build congregations via the commission in which parishioners are taught the rules of church behavior and how to worship Christ from a perspective of NOT forging the gathering of the saints...

Hebrews 10:25: 

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as ye see the Day approaching.

So Ricky it seems to me if it's just you and your bible then you're disobeying scripture. If you do have a church you regularly attend, what makes your rules correct and not other denominations who believe Paul and others told them to worship differently and theirs is the true worship that gives saving grace? How do you know the bible has the truth and not the Quran or Tora? 

Intuition can be an answer but intuition can be wrong so it's not a compelling answer at all.

Joeseph

 I was born and raised in a Catholic country the church was always known as the one true Church,  we looked down on members of other churches as being in error and Hell bound........

The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the largest Christian church, with 1.28 to 1.39 billion baptized Catholics worldwide as of 2024.[4][5][9] It is among the world's 

oldest and largest international institutions and has played a prominent role in the history and development of Western civilization.[10][11][12][13

Joeseph

@Factfinder

Rickets quotes gibberish from some American version of Calvanisn ,he like Just Sayin is to afraid to mention his former church......Just Sayin is Pentecostal he let it slip a while back he gets embarrassed when it's brought up as speaking in tounges ( bollix) is a requirement.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: A Shameful Religion

Thousands of Catholic clergy have been accused of sexual abuse.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hey Jules.

@JulesKorngold

Thing is, you're unnecessarily conflating sex drive and religion.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Here's a fact.

@Factfinder

Within the context of acquired, stored, modified and output data, all religions are true.

Whereas, within the context of acquired, stored, modified and output data, all religions are simply the result of internally modifying acquired data, probably somewhat erroneously...Within this context all religions are unlikely to be true.

Though, a stab in the dark is better than nothing I suppose.

EvePhantom

There is no true religion, religion a man made system of societal control, religions give populations something to do other than looking at the state in its corruption. religions are a tool of governance.

my belief is that relations with God are individual and personal, God can be spoken to one to one without a middleman in a robe of some description begging for money for his new private jet. God is the universe itself no middle man is required simply speak to God and He will hear you and respond.

Gods response is often not spoken words, instead it is a movement of the universe in such a way as to deliver exactly what you have asked God for..

Practical example:

Lets say you need a car to get to a new job to support your new born, simply look anywhere (God is the universe itself) and ask for a car, explain the purpose and await the response

the universe will then move itself in such a way as to drop the conditions required to get the car in to your lap.

If you don't believe me Try it, ask for what you want and watch as the universe (God) provides it for you.

Religion is a tool an dogma, a doctrine, a  mechanism of control often deployed in vicious evil ways but for some who fully believe in the good side of it they can find hope in it and this should not be stamped out, the elites who run religion rackets should be placed under a microscope and watched every second of every day, a s religious leaders they should be 'forced' to practice what they preach and in so doing revealed for they frauds they are

The Pope sits upon a golden throne in a palace of pure opulence as his priest beg their congregations for money for wells in Africa, where the pope to sell a painting 1000 wells could be built but the pope likes to look at the paintings so the Africans go without water for the popes 'enjoyment' 

Fraud.        

Joeseph

@EvePhantom

ARGUMENT TOPIC : MORE UTTER AND LIES FROM EP

Lets say you need a car to get to a new job to support your new born, simply look anywhere (God is the universe itself) and ask for a car, explain the purpose and await the response

the universe will then move itself in such a way as to drop the conditions required to get the car in to your lap.

If you don't believe me Try it, ask for what you want and watch as the universe (God) provides it for you.

It's obvious you never worked on a cancer ward for children  ( i did) and hearing parents pleading and praying to God to save their child and the results are always the same , nothing , nada, zilch .

Why do you say such ridiculously silly things? Would you tell the same parents that their prayers will be answered?

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

I'm hoping some well informed theists can state their positions because there are so many to choose from. I've heard people say only one can be right. I've heard even others say they are the only one who fully understands their doctrine so they believe independent of any church as they all contain flaws that lead people astray. Then there are still others who interpret manuscripts to be teaching doctrines that others view and interpret saying differing things. Which often leads to more diverse opinions and well you know all the various "one true god" claims from various religions and their denominations, sects and regional affiliations. Even ancient Greek philosophers like Plato who believed in a god, influenced Christian writings, believed in an after life, pondered his gods relevance to things like morality with his dialogue Euthyphro...

Fact, not sure where you have been, but the Euthyphro question gets answered at least once a month on this site.  It is a false dichotomy.  There is a third choice.  God's goodness is grounded in God's nature, not just His arbitrary commands or some external standard as Euthyphro dilemma suggested.  God's nature is inherently and eternally good and His commands arise from His good nature.  God cannot command evil because it is contrary to His nature.  So, God's nature provides an objective foundation for morality, avoiding both arbitrariness and dependence on external standards. 

Glad I could answer your unanswerable question.  You're welcome!  

EvePhantom

@Joeseph said: "It's obvious you never worked on a cancer ward for children  ( i did) and hearing parents pleading and praying to God to save their child and the results are always the same , nothing , nada, zilch"

Why do you say such ridiculously silly things? Would you tell the same parents that their prayers will be answered?"

just_sayin

JulesKorngold said:

Thousands of Catholic clergy have been accused of sexual abuse.

Jules, it is shameful that so many Catholic clergy have been accused of sexual abuse.  Over the last 50 years or so, about 2% of Catholic priests have been accused.  If you think that's bad though, then Jules sit down for this.  According to the DOE's own lead researcher for public school educator sexual abuse, between 5-8 percent of all public school educators have sexually assaulted a minor.  

The lead researcher said: "[T]hink the Catholic Church has a problem? The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

There are about 15,000 instances of sexual misconduct reported each year in public schools.  There haven't been 15,000 instances of reported sexual misconduct against ALL clergy of ALL denominations in 50 years.  A kid is up to 100 times more likely to be sexually assaulted by a public school educator than a clergy person.

Joeseph

@EvePhantom

straight to the children with cancer again Joe, straight to the extreme examples, the strawmen...

It's not a strawman to give obvious examples of prayers that are never answered you troll , it's a challenge to your truly du-b assertion" prayfor a car and it drops  into your lap guaranteed " , you're beyond ridiculous.

you consistently virtue signal about working with children with cancer, tell me have you ever asked God for those children to live? have you ever genuinely reached out and asked God to save them?

No I don't constantly virtue signal about working with children with cancer I gave it as a challenge to your childish superstitious nonsense and lies.

BTW unlike you I couldn't give a flying f-ck what people think of me , my arguments seem to really upset you as I keep catching you in lie after lie.

You ran when asked why god watches babies die of cancer ,you ran again when asked why god watches children being sexually abused and does nothing all the troublesome questions I previously asked you  were deleted.

BTW you troll I'm a former Catholic and trainee priest but claiming I never prayed for children with cancer is another lie you just made up  to cover your ridiculous claims.

It's funny you singlehandedly cured your brother of cancer through prayer modern medicine of course not having any part of it , I just bet you have not one shred of evidence for your bogus claim right?

Funny also the first thing you mentioned praying for was a car and not your brothers cure ......lol

So your latest contention is every parent who's child is not healed through praying is not doing it right as only you know the correct way which is to scream at god ........you're the nutrient f-ck I've ever come across here and that's saying something.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; @EvePhantom ; @JustSayin ; @Joeseph    I attend a small congregation Church on the Island where I live in Florida; this, in obedience to the Holy Spirit's command (Hebrews 10:25) and they adhere to the "Baptist" denomination but personally, I'm not a denominational affiliated Christian but one who believes that Christianity is an intimate, personal, relationship with our Creator by grace through faith in Jesus as Messiah and walking daily with the indwelling Holy Spirit as the One who sanctifies and prepares the faithful for service in the New Jerusalem. 

If you must be "compelled" to believe subsequent a sincere read of the "Gospel of John" you are not prepared to meet your Creator as you lack sufficient faith and sincerity to believe. Intimate relationship with our Heavenly Father via faith in Jesus as Messiah and walking daily in sanctification via the indwelling Holy Spirit is the ONLY TRUE purpose for life in Time.

EvePhantom

tyg
         

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@EvePhantom

straight to the children with cancer again Joe, straight to the extreme examples, the strawmen...

It's not a strawman to give obvious examples of prayers that are never answered you troll , it's a challenge to your truly du-b assertion" prayfor a car and it drops  into your lap guaranteed " , you're beyond ridiculous.

you consistently virtue signal about working with children with cancer, tell me have you ever asked God for those children to live? have you ever genuinely reached out and asked God to save them?

No I don't constantly virtue signal about working with children with cancer I gave it as a challenge to your childish superstitious nonsense and lies.

BTW unlike you I couldn't give a flying f-ck what people think of me , my arguments seem to really upset you as I keep catching you in lie after lie.

You ran when asked why god watches babies die of cancer ,you ran again when asked why god watches children being sexually abused and does nothing all the troublesome questions I previously asked you  were deleted.

BTW you troll I'm a former Catholic and trainee priest but claiming I never prayed for children with cancer is another lie you just made up  to cover your ridiculous claims.

It's funny you singlehandedly cured your brother of cancer through prayer modern medicine of course not having any part of it , I just bet you have not one shred of evidence for your bogus claim right?

Funny also the first thing you mentioned praying for was a car and not your brothers cure ......lol

So your latest contention is every parent who's child is not healed through praying is not doing it right as only you know the correct way which is to scream at god ........you're the nutrient f-ck I've ever come across here and that's saying something.

@EvePhantom,

Little man Joe is going to create and fabricate his own narrative no matter how logical of a response you give.  Joe will tell you how immoral it is that kids get cancer, but logically, under Joe's worldview, nothing 'evil' has happened.  Matter behaving like matter is not 'immoral', it just is the way of things.  Cancer is natural and normal.  Joe has to steal a world view to make his claim that it is immoral.  The reality is atheism has no moral answers, or answers period that will help that child.  All Joe can say from his unhelpful world view is 'life is unfair, and then you die'.  Not a world view that offers hope or answers.  

Joe hasn't explained why matter behaving like matter is evil.  He says God must intervene.  But Joe also talks out the other side of his mouth and says that he has free will to reject God.  He wants God to control everything, but allow him and his atheists friends free will to do evil.  Yeah, I know, he's a hypocrite and not smart enough to recognize it.  Most 'evil' in the world is not from nature, but from human beings.  

Little Joe has ascribed to naturally occurring things like cancer - evilness.  But this is inconsistent with his worldview that all there is is just matter being matter.  Now I'm sure Joe would say something like 'yeah, well, OK, my worldview is crap and doesn't have any answers, but in your worldview, shouldn't God save the kid with cancer if He's good?'

So, let's take a moment and address the loaded question.  Joe has alleged that God owes him and everyone else a happy life without any problems.  God does not.  He has claimed the exact opposite.  Yet man is born unto trouble - Job 5:7,  While you are in the world, you will have to suffer. - John 16:33 (CEV).  God's promise is that no matter how difficult this life has been, that he has provided an eternal life with no more suffering, and joy for those who choose to follow him - He will wipe all tears from their eyes, and there will be no more death, suffering, crying, or pain. These things of the past are gone forever. - Revelation 21:4.  In this world, there will be problems and suffering, but - the good news is, because Jesus suffered for us, we can one day live a life without suffering with him.  So, a Christian worldview does offer hope - unlike atheism - which offers no hope.

Even though there is suffering in this world, I believe a life of Christian faith has more to offer, than the useless life response of atheism which is 'that's just the way it is kid, go die now.'  I believe that even in the midst of difficult situations that God can comfort us.  I believe that God can give me strength to face difficult situations, and that I can even learn and grow from some difficulties I go through - (James 1:2-3; Romans 5:3-5).

So, I would tell Joe - "you just don't don't measure up.  What you have to offer is too small to be seen."  What faith in Christ offers is hope in the midst of suffering, comfort, and hope of an eternal life without suffering.  


Joe, I'm not seeing what you got to offer.

EvePhantom

ccc

EvePhantom

ppp

polytheistwitch

There is no one true religion in the sense that you're asking. Religion is the worship of gods in an organized way. There are all kinds of gods you can choose to work with none of them are right or wrong it all depends on what you want, whether or not you feel like you're compatible with them, whether or not they've called you to work with them. You might be connecting with them simply because you decided to connect with your ancestors or your cultural past. You might have dreams about a certain deity and start to look into them and end up eventually engaging with them. None of them are wrong and none of them are right in the sense everybody has to do it or they're going to some sort of crap afterlife.  Engaging with a deity is a personal choice and if you decide to do that there are rules, taboos and whatnot that religion let's you know about. You can certainly engage with those deities without being in any religion at all. It's almost impossible for me to find local Heathens and you have to be very careful you don't end up with a bunch of white supremacist Bros if you find a group. Most times my religion is basically me doing things in my own home, on my own. While I'm engaging in a religion it doesn't really mean anything to anybody else. I think it's sad that the emphasis of having to be involved in an organized religion to work with deity because more atheist might be open to engage with certain entities or to engage in certain spiritual practices if they weren't attached to a religion. Much like a lot of Christians associating yoga with religion even though it's more of a practice within a religion than a religious practice.

Joeseph

@EvePhantom


Let's cut to the chase tough guy ......if I could save a child from cancer I would your god can but doesn't yet you worship a god who watches ...........and does f-ck all ........WOW!

I Ran Did I? seems like we are still having the conversation Joe, you say you don't virtue signal yet every second example you give is children with cancer ...

Yes you did you still refuse to answer why god watches children being sexually abused and does nothing , because you cannot........yet he gives you a car by just asking ....LOL 

this is a set up so you can then tell people you work with children with cancer or a ‘virtue signal’

No i used to , probably at the same time god was manifesting cars for you.

I have news for you Joe you are right you only 'work with' children with cancer, where you to genuinely 'care' about children with cancer wouldn't you try anything to save them?

You mean like cure cancer or better still get you to pray for them seeing as he answers all your prayers on request.

I have told you about a way I know that involves but a few words spoken genuinely to God but you have shot it down and why? pride!, pride in your label as an atheist

Did you visit cancer wards and tell parents they were praying in the wrong way? You only know how Mr holy ?

you won’t challenge your atheism to at least try and maybe save a child with cancer but you are quick to tell the world at every opportunity that you 'work with them'

So only people who pray can work with cancer victims , tell us hows that working?

try working for them Joe instead of worrying about your own self-image try asking God...

 i asked him to give you a brain ,no joy on that one yet.

if you are afraid to say some words to God Joe who's really running?

But only you know the magic words that cures cancer....... and makes your mother keep her legs closed.....

I didn’t say I single handled cured my Brother of cancer, I said I begged God to and He cured my brother of cancer – why you putting words in my mouth Joe?

 In reply to your lies post up proof of your godly miracle, you cannot right ?

You've been caught lying again.

You said you are a former Catholic and trainee priest, so considering your position now would you say your heart wasn’t genuinely in the Catholic Church? In other words you were lying to yourself? If you can lie to you sell to the extent that you actually attempt to become a priest what else could your assumptions be incorrect about?

i saw zero evidence for a god I stopped believing in magic.

The car was just a generic example of the process, the story about my brother was a first-hand account of the process these are two different things

you can prove neither of your lies so they are both the same actually complete fabrications.

By your inability to interpret basic information I am struggling to believe you actually do work on a cancer ward, isn’t the ability to interpret information correctly a core part of your Job?

BT basic information you seem to me make a load of lies up and think you won't be challenged well you have and no doubt more lies will follow.

Oh and it is you that is upset Joe, you are upset you were called out for your virtue signalling, something that is long overdue, constantly bringing people down with your cancer examples rather than seeking a solution where ever it may be.

Ah i see blame me for not curing cancer and praise you for being so holy and righteous god cures cancer by your request ........LOL 

you are right about one thing Joe is shoulnt have engaged you in conversation i have had better converstions with rocks  

Leave your mother out of this no doubt the slag is as dumb as a rock you being her spawn carry on family tradition.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; I tell you the Truth...my relationship with Jesus is not predicated upon a Church or denomination...you insult that which you do not know and you're dead in your sin and unbelief due your arrogance and hard-hearted pride...you won't listen. You and @Factfinder are both servants of Satan and you're too arrogant to see this and repent.

Joeseph

@just_sayin

Poor ole Just Lyin found a new hypocrite as a friend, your continuing obsession with size is rather worrying but hey that's your thing.

You carry on pretending insaid things I've never said and arguing against them , you or your new b-tt buddy still cannot answer why you choose to worship a god thar would watch a child be raped and do f-ck all when he easily could .......

Why don't you and fellow your fellow have a little pow wow about that teaser and give it your best shot ......I will award marks out of 10

Hey why didn't you get EP to pray for your dad god answers all his prayers but not yours , whys that?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; You are a horrible person.

Joeseph

@EvePhantom

in the response I was going to offer my soul as a bargaining chip for one of the children's souls being aloud to live having Joe the atheist offer the deal to God and in so doing force Gods hand..

You worship a thug who has to be given something in exchange for saving a child as in your soul.

God apparently loves all his creations yet would watch a child go through agony and do nothing unless as you suggest he's offered a pay back ......how sick is that?


Would answer you better to examine how a loving God watched children being gassed to death by Germans as they wailed to god to save  them , god did nothing if any human had the power to save such a child they would your god just watches , not a shred of sympathy , pity or love and yet you fall to your knees to praise him ........WOW!

Factfinder

@Joeseph

 I was born and raised in a Catholic country the church was always known as the one true Church,  we looked down on members of other churches as being in error and Hell bound........

The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the largest Christian church, with 1.28 to 1.39 billion baptized Catholics worldwide as of 2024.[4][5][9] It is among the world's 

oldest and largest international institutions and has played a prominent role in the history and development of Western civilization.[10][11][12][13

That's exactly what I mean. The biggest on the block under the banner "Christian" yet denominations like my old one Freewill Baptist, truly believe Catholicism is a cult and only a few make it to heaven because of personal enlightenment despite Catholic doctrine, not cause of it. I'm sure you when you believed (correct me if you never did cause then I'm off track) but when you believed you believed the church and so you believed the others led people astray? That's what the Freewill Baptist taught me. And of course both can not be right. Yet both can cite scripture for support. 

Oh and congrats from getting out from underneath the garbage! I know once I could admit to myself I no longer believed it felt like for the first time I could see and a weight was lifted. 

Factfinder

@EvePhantom

what to I do now?

Drop all fears and concerns about being right or wrong and reevaluate your position. Nothing wrong in that. 

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@just_sayin

Poor ole Just Lyin found a new hypocrite as a friend, your continuing obsession with size is rather worrying but hey that's your thing.

You carry on pretending insaid things I've never said and arguing against them , you or your new b-tt buddy still cannot answer why you choose to worship a god thar would watch a child be raped and do f-ck all when he easily could .......

Why don't you and fellow your fellow have a little pow wow about that teaser and give it your best shot ......I will award marks out of 10

Hey why didn't you get EP to pray for your dad god answers all his prayers but not yours , whys that?

Joe, you shouldn't take things personally. I'm showing how insignificant your argument is, just being honest.  You essentially yelled 'God did something immoral.  There's no law against it, but I say its immoral."  Your argument goes limp when we look at your world view which can't say naturally occurring things are evil.  Matter is just reacting the way matter has to react.  You've tried to assert motive to matter - which is inconsistent with your world view.  You want to point a finger at Christianity, but ignore how insufficient and vapid your own world view is to addressing the question of suffering.  Sorry, if my observing that there is nothing there in your argument upsets you so much.  

You mentioned the death of my dad.  In your world view his life was ultimately meaningless and his suffering was just the way things are.  However, I believe my dad now lives eternally without suffering.  I have hope to one day see him again.  You on the other hand, have nothing in your hand. 

Praying for ya.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Fact, not sure where you have been, but the Euthyphro question gets answered at least once a month on this site.  It is a false dichotomy.  There is a third choice.  God's goodness is grounded in God's nature, not just His arbitrary commands or some external standard as Euthyphro dilemma suggested.  God's nature is inherently and eternally good and His commands arise from His good nature.  God cannot command evil because it is contrary to His nature.  So, God's nature provides an objective foundation for morality, avoiding both arbitrariness and dependence on external standards. 

Glad I could answer your unanswerable question.  You're welcome!  

Na in order to believe the "third" option you'd have to answer the question of evil. Can't blame it on Satan and his rebellion cause evil doesn't exist pre Satan (if god is all good and existed eons before he began to create) so with only good in existence till god acted that'd make your god responsible and thus good can not be it's nature. The dilemma holds.

Assuming you're talking about the Christian god (from past discussions with you) you did not answer my question. BTW, who suggested my question was unanswerable?

Anyway, which denomination if you are Christian is the only true one?

Factfinder

polytheistwitch said: There is no one true religion in the sense that you're asking. Religion is the worship of gods in an organized way. There are all kinds of gods you can choose to work with none of them are right or wrong it all depends on what you want, whether or not you feel like you're compatible with them, whether or not they've called you to work with them. You might be connecting with them simply because you decided to connect with your ancestors or your cultural past. You might have dreams about a certain deity and start to look into them and end up eventually engaging with them. None of them are wrong and none of them are right in the sense everybody has to do it or they're going to some sort of crap afterlife.  Engaging with a deity is a personal choice and if you decide to do that there are rules, taboos and whatnot that religion let's you know about. You can certainly engage with those deities without being in any religion at all. It's almost impossible for me to find local Heathens and you have to be very careful you don't end up with a bunch of white supremacist Bros if you find a group. Most times my religion is basically me doing things in my own home, on my own. While I'm engaging in a religion it doesn't really mean anything to anybody else. I think it's sad that the emphasis of having to be involved in an organized religion to work with deity because more atheist might be open to engage with certain entities or to engage in certain spiritual practices if they weren't attached to a religion. Much like a lot of Christians associating yoga with religion even though it's more of a practice within a religion than a religious practice.


 @polytheistwitch

So would it be fair to say you believe all organized religions are wrong and true divine enlightenment only comes through personal experience?

polytheistwitch

@Factfinder I don't believe religions are wrong. I believe worshiping gods in the context of a religion is perfectly fine and there's nothing wrong with a bunch of people who agree with each other spiritually coming together and worshiping gods in a group. What I'm saying is no religion is the one true religion, they're all right. I certainly think if you haven't come into some sort of personal enlightenment I'm not sure why you're in a religion.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; @Polytheistwitch ;

Satan is the origin of evil; this, before the creation of Time and physics; this, causation for the creation narrative.

polytheistwitch

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; @Polytheistwitch ;

Satan is the origin of evil; this, before the creation of Time and physics; this, causation for the creation narrative.

Satan is not a Creator. He did not create evil and he does not create things that are evil. If God is the creator then it all falls back on God. In the Old Testament Satan is simply the adversary. It was more like he was the prosecuting attorney in the trial of your life where God is judge. Christians have incorporated a lot of folk tales into their belief system that the Jews do not put in their actual testament. Just like there's no hell in the Old Testament there's simply a place absent of God.

Joeseph

@just_sayin

Joe, you shouldn't take things personally. I'm showing how insignificant your argument is, just being honest.

But yet you have no answer  at all to what I asked.

  You essentially yelled 'God did something immoral.  There's no law against it, but I say its immoral." 

But yet I said no such thing , you keep arguing with yourself 


 Your argument goes limp when we look at your world view which can't say naturally occurring things are evil.  Matter is just reacting the way matter has to react.  You've tried to assert motive to matter - which is inconsistent with your world view.  You want to point a finger at Christianity, but ignore how insufficient and vapid your own world view is to addressing the question of suffering

But I never made any such argument again attacking arguments I haven't made isn't very convincing .


.  Sorry, if my observing that there is nothing there in your argument upsets you so much.  

But I'm not upset at all I asked you one question and as usual you've no answer.

You mentioned the death of my dad.  In your world view his life was ultimately meaningless and his suffering was just the way things are

But that's not my world view at all , when did I say life was meaningless?


.  However, I believe my dad now lives eternally without suffering.  I have hope to one day see him again.  You on the other hand, have nothing in your hand. 

But you won't see your dad again , when you're gone you're gone , sorry to break it to you but your like the child who wants to go on believing in Santa.


Praying  for ya.

Maybe a car will drop into your lap like what happened EP ?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@polytheistwitch ; Evil is not a created entity as it exists solely in the absence of righteousness and morality much like a hole that is left in the ground when a rock is removed...the hole formed around the rock but was not a hole until the rock was removed...much like you, you are defiled by sin and unrighteousness and you are therefore evil and you will perish in your sin and evilness because you have rejected the gifted, imputed, righteousness of Jesus over your life in exchange for that sin; therefore, the Father's wrath remains on you in your sin (John 8:24; John 3:36).

Satan is causation for our creation in Time and Jesus entered Time specifically "to destroy the works of Satan" (1 John 3:8b) and when you minimize the relevance of the god your serve (John 8:44), the god who is your spiritual father, Satan, you align with Satan's greatest achievement, convincing the naive and the spiritually ignorant and arrogant that he does not exist.

polytheistwitch

@RickeyHoltsclaw So evil could have just existed but God went ahead and created Satan to push evil all around the place so it would get all over humans and then that made Jesus necessary even though there's absolutely nothing anywhere that proves Jesus might have even existed let alone he's the savior. I doubt my sin is anything close to the sin of having false prophets that steal other people's gods and use them to their own advantage. 

Factfinder

polytheistwitch said:

@Factfinder I don't believe religions are wrong. I believe worshiping gods in the context of a religion is perfectly fine and there's nothing wrong with a bunch of people who agree with each other spiritually coming together and worshiping gods in a group. What I'm saying is no religion is the one true religion, they're all right. I certainly think if you haven't come into some sort of personal enlightenment I'm not sure why you're in a religion.

I'm not in a religion. I'm atheist. "All" religions can not be right as they represent thousands of imagined gods of various types. Many throughout history has claimed to be the one true religion representing the one true god. So they all can't be right. For example the ancient Greeks believed in twelve gods with one called Zeus as their leader. The Tora in Judaism proclaims "god" as in the Abrahamic god as the only true god. They look for a savior to come to the world. Christianity adopts that same Abrahamic god but attributes three distinct personalities that equate to a god and they believe Jesus was that savior the orthodox Jews are still waiting for. All three personalities working together as one god. Islam too believes in the Abrahamic god but where Jesus is concerned he was a minor profit with no divine nature. Then there are the Indian gods, Egyptian gods, Nordic gods, and on and on. All may or may not share similar elements of practicing faith but all with very strong distinctions that suggest they're NOT "all right". Either one is right or none are.  

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Fact, not sure where you have been, but the Euthyphro question gets answered at least once a month on this site.  It is a false dichotomy.  There is a third choice.  God's goodness is grounded in God's nature, not just His arbitrary commands or some external standard as Euthyphro dilemma suggested.  God's nature is inherently and eternally good and His commands arise from His good nature.  God cannot command evil because it is contrary to His nature.  So, God's nature provides an objective foundation for morality, avoiding both arbitrariness and dependence on external standards. 

Glad I could answer your unanswerable question.  You're welcome!  

Na in order to believe the "third" option you'd have to answer the question of evil. Can't blame it on Satan and his rebellion cause evil doesn't exist pre Satan (if god is all good and existed eons before he began to create) so with only good in existence till god acted that'd make your god responsible and thus good can not be it's nature. The dilemma holds.

Assuming you're talking about the Christian god (from past discussions with you) you did not answer my question. BTW, who suggested my question was unanswerable?

Anyway, which denomination if you are Christian is the only true one?

Fact,  God has not done evil.  People do evil.  God is not responsible for the evil people do.  They are responsible for their own conduct.  God has given us free will, and some will do evil.  That's the risk of allowing free will.  You don't get a world with love possible if there is no free will.  If love is not given freely, but compelled, then it isn't real love.

“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity”.  That's a old quote on rather than looking to divide, we look to focus on what is essential.  

Paul himself said people didn't always have to agree with him for people to receive the gospel.  "It does not matter! I am happy about it—just so Christ is preached in every way possible, whether from wrong or right motives. And I will continue to be happy," - Philippians 1:18

I come from a Charismatic/Pentecostal background, but I don't see it as an issue of one right and all others wrong.  Even within the same denomination you will find differences of opinion.  Do you know why?  Because churches are made up of people, and people differ.  Instead, I would focus on what I think are essential beliefs, and liberty to disagree in non-essentials.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@polytheistwitch ; Again, you're dying in spiritual ignorance because you refuse to study and learn the truth of our existence in Time and your place in this vacuum of Time and physics .. you would rather perish in naivete and foolishness. 

Satan was created in absolute perfection, in beauty, morality, servitude to Elohim in the Kingdom on the Mountain of Elohim..the divine Pinnacle...but Satan lusted and coveted in his heart to be like Elohim and rule and reign over all of Heaven, even rule over Elohim Himself; consequently, a rebellion in the Kingdom manifest and one-third of the angelic realm followed Satan in that rebellion and they were ultimately extricated from the Kingdom and our temporary Earth and Heavens were created as a repository for that Kingdom War as Elohim deals with the rebellious cherub here, partially constrained by Time and physics, apart from the Kingdom and Jesus appeared in Time in flesh specifically to destroy the works of Satan (1 John 3:8b)...a battle that was declared in Genesis 3:15, the battle strategy pictured in Genesis 3:21 which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the New Covenant of Grace. 

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Fact, not sure where you have been, but the Euthyphro question gets answered at least once a month on this site.  It is a false dichotomy.  There is a third choice.  God's goodness is grounded in God's nature, not just His arbitrary commands or some external standard as Euthyphro dilemma suggested.  God's nature is inherently and eternally good and His commands arise from His good nature.  God cannot command evil because it is contrary to His nature.  So, God's nature provides an objective foundation for morality, avoiding both arbitrariness and dependence on external standards. 

Glad I could answer your unanswerable question.  You're welcome!  

Na in order to believe the "third" option you'd have to answer the question of evil. Can't blame it on Satan and his rebellion cause evil doesn't exist pre Satan (if god is all good and existed eons before he began to create) so with only good in existence till god acted that'd make your god responsible and thus good can not be it's nature. The dilemma holds.

Assuming you're talking about the Christian god (from past discussions with you) you did not answer my question. BTW, who suggested my question was unanswerable?

Anyway, which denomination if you are Christian is the only true one?

Fact,  God has not done evil.  People do evil.  God is not responsible for the evil people do.  They are responsible for their own conduct.  God has given us free will, and some will do evil.  That's the risk of allowing free will.  You don't get a world with love possible if there is no free will.  If love is not given freely, but compelled, then it isn't real love.

“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity”.  That's a old quote on rather than looking to divide, we look to focus on what is essential.  

Paul himself said people didn't always have to agree with him for people to receive the gospel.  "It does not matter! I am happy about it—just so Christ is preached in every way possible, whether from wrong or right motives. And I will continue to be happy," - Philippians 1:18

I come from a Charismatic/Pentecostal background, but I don't see it as an issue of one right and all others wrong.  Even within the same denomination you will find differences of opinion.  Do you know why?  Because churches are made up of people, and people differ.  Instead, I would focus on what I think are essential beliefs, and liberty to disagree in non-essentials.

So if one church says you need to accept Christ and another church says Christ hasn't come yet they are both right? There is no issue of right and wrong when it comes to believing in a god?

polytheistwitch

@Factfinder Can you show me where any of the polytheist pantheons have restricted people from worshiping outside those? You have to remember that in the old pagan faiths the gods represented animistic concepts. Those animistic concepts were localized to the region they lived in so you worship those gods because they were your local gods and they did things for you to local level. But there's no restriction that says if you go out into the world and there are deities that represent areas in the world that aren't yours that you can't work with those deities or worship them. The God of Abraham demands that you only worship him, he's pretty clear that he's jealous and that you're not to have any gods before him. But Odin has never stated you can't worship any god but me anywhere in any of the texts that address the Norse gods. And I really can't think of any text regarding the Greek gods it says you have to worship Zeus or your worshiping the wrong deity. As a matter of fact in most polytheist pantheons you may not even work with or worship more than five or six gods that apply to how you live your life. Women that maintain a household aren't making offerings to a war god. And men who are out hunting probably aren't making offerings to a household goddess. So I think you're getting the impression that the Vikings went and did what they did to spread their gods around the world and that wasn't it at all they were looking for farmland. There's no restriction there of worshiping god you might have found and there's other areas. There's not even a requirement to worship the gods of your local area. I will say that I believe that Christianity and Islam have manipulated the Jewish faith to suit their needs because something about the way the Jews were living and worshiping they saw benefit. 

polytheistwitch

@RickeyHoltsclaw I'm wondering if you could show me a quote from the Old Testament where it talks about Satan being the personification or representation of evil and that he is the ruler of Hell. You keep referring to the New Testament. If the God of Abraham set this up from the beginning then there's surely should be quite a bit of text in the Old Testament regarding all that.

Factfinder

polytheistwitch said:

@Factfinder Can you show me where any of the polytheist pantheons have restricted people from worshiping outside those? You have to remember that in the old pagan faiths the gods represented animistic concepts. Those animistic concepts were localized to the region they lived in so you worship those gods because they were your local gods and they did things for you to local level. But there's no restriction that says if you go out into the world and there are deities that represent areas in the world that aren't yours that you can't work with those deities or worship them. The God of Abraham demands that you only worship him, he's pretty clear that he's jealous and that you're not to have any gods before him. But Odin has never stated you can't worship any god but me anywhere in any of the texts that address the Norse gods. And I really can't think of any text regarding the Greek gods it says you have to worship Zeus or your worshiping the wrong deity. As a matter of fact in most polytheist pantheons you may not even work with or worship more than five or six gods that apply to how you live your life. Women that maintain a household aren't making offerings to a war god. And men who are out hunting probably aren't making offerings to a household goddess. So I think you're getting the impression that the Vikings went and did what they did to spread their gods around the world and that wasn't it at all they were looking for farmland. There's no restriction there of worshiping god you might have found and there's other areas. There's not even a requirement to worship the gods of your local area. I will say that I believe that Christianity and Islam have manipulated the Jewish faith to suit their needs because something about the way the Jews were living and worshiping they saw benefit. 

Yes but the Nordic gods behaved like humans did and accepted sacrificial worship where the Abrahamic demanded exclusive rights to our worship and sacrifices as well. So it's not about the right attitude for seeking gods, its about discerning which is correct. If any. 

There is no sacred text per say where Greek mythology is concerned but there were cult leaders that required the worship of Zeus still the same.

The most-striking characteristic of Greek religion was the belief in a multiplicity of anthropomorphic deities under one supreme god. Priests simply looked after cults; they did not constitute a clergy, and there were no sacred books.

The sole requirements for the Greeks were to believe that the gods existed and to perform ritual and sacrifice, through which the gods received their due. To deny the existence of a deity was to risk reprisals, from the deity or from other mortals. The list of avowed atheists is brief. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Greek-religion

It's seems to me if you're right and all religions are right then we'd see cooperation among the gods to straighten out the confusing, sometimes convoluting mess that is the religious state of existence of today. If you're right why doesn't the gods simply clear it up quickly? Why do they demand or accept worship but keep quiet about the other gods or denounce them and say worship me alone?

Joeseph

@Factfinder

Thanks on the congrats,  as you say it's a great burden I no longer have to carry . I firmly believed and had this smug superior to attitide to any who weren't Catholic , we actually pitied them and prayed they would come to the one true faith.

I find it amusing when christians like Rickets call Catholics Satanists 

polytheistwitch

@Factfinder
It's seems to me if you're right and all religions are right then we'd see cooperation among the gods to straighten out the confusing, sometimes convoluting mess that is the religious state of existence of today. If you're right why doesn't the gods simply clear it up quickly? Why do they demand or accept worship but keep quiet about the other gods or denounce them and say worship me alone?

Well I had a post and now it's gone. I'll try to repeat the gist of it. First I'll say this far as the Greek gods I don't worship in that Pantheon and all so I really have no idea what the details of it were then or now. Most of the most of the western polytheistic faiths do not have sacred text so it's just a lot of reading of myths and I haven't done that. There's some stories but I don't know the details of most of them. I'm not sure why Odin should care if you worship him or not when he already has people that he can work with. And why would he feel like he needs to straighten out other religions. Looking at pagans and polytheists there's a lot of overlap at least in modern context of pulling deities from various different pantheons and using them or working with them as you see fit. I've worked with deities from different pantheons. In Wicca you can pretty much pull in any god or goddess to represent the masculine and feminine. And in witchcraft you can work with deities without being involved in any religion you can call them in for individual spells or you can call them in for individual workings and then never talk to them again. Other than monotheists there's very little finger pointing in the religious community of your right I'm wrong. And if there is it's usually argued between members of that individual faiths but even then we don't have the same kind of issues with various denominations like Christians do. I have no problem believing all religions are correct and all deities exist and anybody can work with them if they so choose to if the deities willing to reciprocate. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@polytheistwitch ; In Job, we see Satan's primary function as seeking to destroy the faith of others and destroy their relationship with Elohim ultimately leading them into the pit of Hell. 

8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.  Job 1

In 1 Chronicles, we see Satan as an accuser of Israel, the people set-apart, sanctified, by Elohim for His eschatological purposes concerning Messiah, 1 Chronicles 21:1 

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Satan as the tempter/overseer of evil, Psalms 109:6 

Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Satan as the tempter and evil one, Zechariah 3:1,2 

And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Isaiah describes Satan's fall,

Isaiah 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

@polytheistwitch ; Jesus, who is Elohim of the Old Testament, Old Covenant, speaks often of Satan and Satan's works among man...you should listen to Jesus and find life in Name.

polytheistwitch

@RickeyHoltsclaw.  And some of those passages you're using Satan as a proper name but in the right translation it's the satan, which is basically the adversary. So in any one of those instances the satan could have been an angel who is obviously moving upon the angels of it heaven. I mean Satan just isn't up there walking around when he's supposed to be in hell right? Lucifer's name is only used once and Lucifer and Satan are two distinct entities per Solomon's key. You don't get to just call any character from the Old Testament Jesus cuz you feel like it. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@polytheistwitch ; Only the most vile of fallen angels, most likely those involved in the fall of the Adamic and Noahic generations occupy Hell at this time.

 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—  Jude 1:6 (ESV)

Other than these most wicked and defiled angels, Hell remains unoccupied awaiting the internment of Satan and the rebellious of humanity.

_________________________________

Satan will not be fully relegated to Hell until subsequent the Millennial Kingdom and the initiation of the Judgment of the Condemned (Revelation 20:10-15) although Satan will be relegated to the pit for 1000-years during the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20); this, so that Elohim can demonstrate to the faithful angelic creation the true instigator and initiator of EVIL over the previous 6000-years of war, famine, strife, suffering, hopelessness...the 1000-year reign of Messiah, a dispensation replete with perfect peace will provide a stark comparison-contrast for the faithful angelic creation to see and understand the goodness and necessity of obedience in the Kingdom that Elohim's way is the ONLY WAY to true peace and righteousness.

Satan and the fallen angels will be tormented day and night in Hell as they are angelic and angels do not die (Revelation 20:10; Luke 20:36).

________________________

You currently serve Satan in your rejection of Jesus (John 8:44) and a demon is your personal discernment and wisdom in your daily life and he will eventually guide you strait into Sheol/Hades-Torments where you will await the Judgment of the Condemned as your sin will adjudicate you guilty before Jesus and you will ultimately lose resurrected body, soul, mind, in the Lake of Fire in the "second death;" this, because you were too arrogant and self-righteous to humble yourself and honor the Father by trusting in Jesus as your Messiah who suffered and died to provide you blood atonement for your sin as per the mandates of Leviticus 17:11 (Revelation 20:11-15). 

 

Factfinder

polytheistwitch said:

@Factfinder
It's seems to me if you're right and all religions are right then we'd see cooperation among the gods to straighten out the confusing, sometimes convoluting mess that is the religious state of existence of today. If you're right why doesn't the gods simply clear it up quickly? Why do they demand or accept worship but keep quiet about the other gods or denounce them and say worship me alone?

Well I had a post and now it's gone. I'll try to repeat the gist of it. First I'll say this far as the Greek gods I don't worship in that Pantheon and all so I really have no idea what the details of it were then or now. Most of the most of the western polytheistic faiths do not have sacred text so it's just a lot of reading of myths and I haven't done that. There's some stories but I don't know the details of most of them. I'm not sure why Odin should care if you worship him or not when he already has people that he can work with. And why would he feel like he needs to straighten out other religions. Looking at pagans and polytheists there's a lot of overlap at least in modern context of pulling deities from various different pantheons and using them or working with them as you see fit. I've worked with deities from different pantheons. In Wicca you can pretty much pull in any god or goddess to represent the masculine and feminine. And in witchcraft you can work with deities without being involved in any religion you can call them in for individual spells or you can call them in for individual workings and then never talk to them again. Other than monotheists there's very little finger pointing in the religious community of your right I'm wrong. And if there is it's usually argued between members of that individual faiths but even then we don't have the same kind of issues with various denominations like Christians do. I have no problem believing all religions are correct and all deities exist and anybody can work with them if they so choose to if the deities willing to reciprocate. 

Okay well I have no problem with people worshipping how they want, like I said though I do not want it imposed on me through societal pressures, force, or intrusion of personal affairs.

But if all religions are true despite logical axioms that make it very, very unlikely, then at what point must we consider ALL forms of spirits, spirituality, and deity worship just people following their own fantasies? Even you just said, "And if there is it's usually argued between members of that individual faiths but even then we don't have the same kind of issues with various denominations like Christians do".
Where there is argumentation there are implications of right and wrong. See what I mean?

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; @Polytheistwitch ;

Satan is the origin of evil; this, before the creation of Time and physics; this, causation for the creation narrative.

According to your bible god created satan. Correct? Therefore evil didn't exist till god acted. God's nature can not be pure good. And what makes your god true? Other gods have similar claims yet haven't created concepts of eternal torture for trivial reasons like your god has. Meet Brahman. The "ultimate reality, the divine consciousness, and the supreme spirit that is present everywhere and unchanging. Hindus believe that Brahman is the true essence of all existence, and that all living beings contain a part of Brahman within them, known as the atman."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/brahman-Hindu-concept

This can't be right and your faith be right so do you have proof yours is right?

polytheistwitch

@Factfinder So what if they are on fantasies? Like you said if it's not intruding on your daily life why should it matter if I'm living in a fantasy world? Is the problem that we're gathering in groups and calling it a religion, is there some sort of malice there because you don't like us all getting together? The question was can all religions be true and I think I answered you, polytheist specifically believe all religions can be true. Whether or not it's real or not really doesn't matter. That wasn't the question and I can do what I want if I'm not infringing on you.