Insanity and religion

Factfinder

Great post. And I know it's generally a fallacy to bring up hitler in debates normally. But if you look at several of Hitler's speeches and quotes from Mein Kampf and read what the bad cop from Houston rails about everyday, they sound exactly the same.

Joeseph

@Factfinder

Thanks FF.   The disgraced cop is really deranged by any standards , he honestly believes those who believe in Science are in league with Satan for reasons only known to himself.

His buddy on here is a Charismatic Pentecostal who believe they commune with the Holy spirit through tounges they also believe that the holy spirit works through them to heal , give prophecies and preform miracles.

If one proclaimed in public to communing with spirits and rolling on the ground spouting gibberish in any other walk of life their families would get treatment for them , it's actually encouraged when called religion , doesn't make sense to me at all.

Factfinder

@Joeseph

His buddy on here is a Charismatic Pentecostal who believe they commune with the Holy spirit through tounges they also believe that the holy spirit works through them to heal , give prophecies and preform miracles.

True, that one runs from his own identity. He once tried to tell me the bible wasn't his source for his views. And of course never explains how he can falsify the god theory.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; The religion of atheism is a loony farm of demonic idio-ts...this is true and it is the atheist, the sect of secular humanism that destroys families, our youth, our sustainability, our future....religion is the bane of any society but Jesus is the KEY to life and peace and contentment and hope. You are a prime example of how evil atheism can be.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@Joeseph

His buddy on here is a Charismatic Pentecostal who believe they commune with the Holy spirit through tounges they also believe that the holy spirit works through them to heal , give prophecies and preform miracles.

True, that one runs from his own identity. He once tried to tell me the bible wasn't his source for his views. And of course never explains how he can falsify the god theory.

I think you are mistaken.  In debates about the origin of the universe and origin of life I have avoided making Biblical references and just made a case based on the evidence of the complexity of the universe and life.  That isn't a condemnation of the Bible.  

I don't know that I can falsify God.  God exists beyond space-time.  I don't have the ability to even fully comprehend that.  But I can infer that if something happens that is not physically possible then that suggests a miracle - like the universe coming from nothing, or life coming from non-life, or a guy whose amputated limb grows back 2 years later, over night, or a guy dies on a cross and resurrects 3 days later with lots of eye witnesses.

Atheists believe in miracles - at least 10 miracle level blockages for chemical evolution.  They believe in their miracles, only problem is they don't believe in the God needed to bring them about.  just sayin

MayCaesar

Humans have interesting minds: they are very-very good at making us think that what we feel is reflective of reality. Have you ever had those experiences where you get stuck in your head, overanalyze everything, see threats and dangers everywhere, see every individual you encounter as wishing you ill? The world looks like a dark place indeed then. But then you have also probably had the reverse experiences, where you are having a blast for no apparent reason, everything is easy, everyone feels like your best buddy - the world is amazing. In both cases though the world is exactly the same, but because your body produces different sensations and your mind produces different thoughts, your perception of it could not be more different.

When you are strongly attached to feeling a particular way or thinking a particular thought, you start coloring reality in a way that best matches that. From your perspective, the reality might as well actually change, so different it starts appearing from what it is. It does match the definition of insanity, only we all are insane by this definition.

If you strongly believe that there is a deity watching out for you and giving your life meaning, and if you do not see how you can derive any meaning from life without it, then everywhere you look, you see proof of the deity's existence. One comedian compared it to how people who spend a lot of time volunteering in dog shelters start seeing evidence of people mistreating their dogs everywhere, even where it is not present: for example, they see a dog following its master and barking excitedly, and think, "The dog is barking because it is expressing frustration over its master mistreating it". Here, something great happens to you or to someone you know, and you see it as proof that the deity, indeed, is watching us.

By the same token, evidence that does not align with your beliefs will be dismissed under some excuse. A hurricane destroyed your friend's house? Well, that could not have been the work of the deity, could it? "The deity's plan is too complicated for us to understand, but it must have done it for a reason." The idea that the deity can destroy your friend's house out of malice, or that it can just watch the house destroyed for no supernatural reason and not care one way or the other - let alone that there is just no deity - does not even appear on your mental radar. It is so alien to your perception of reality, it barely deserves a mention.

I suppose some people, like Jesus, take it further than others and devote their entire lives to this particular element of twisted reality - but we all are guilty of it to various extents. Social anxiety that I used to suffer from throughout my teens-to-mid-20-s was exactly this kind of insanity: I saw danger in social situations where there was none and interpreted my experience through the prism of "everybody is out to get me". A beautiful girl complimented my looks? "She must be sarcastic, mocking me". A professor told me that I did a stellar job with the course project? "He just wants to get rid of me, so I do not pester him with questions about my grade".

In that case though there was a difference between me and religious people: I intellectually understood that my perception of the world was severely distorted. It is not like I seriously thought that everyone was out to get me. Rather, it was a very strong feeling residing somewhere in my body, a bunch of knots of tension keeping me in the fight-or-flight mode, translating to hectic negative thoughts and the overall miserable experience. I simply did not see how I could override it with logic. I obliterated it later through bold action, fighting fire with fire and putting myself in the most scary social situations I could find. Pure logical thinking got me nowhere: how do you think your way out of primal instincts taking over your body?

But now I wonder if it was not that different in this respect either. Imagine someone hearing from an early age how horrible hell is, how pointless life without god is... Would the person not have the same knots of tension around their body formed? Perhaps a deeply religious person seeing a persuasive argument against theism does understand its validity intellectually, but, just like me, does not feel it in his body - and the body eventually takes over and overwrites the intellectual doubts. Who cares about this argument, no matter how persuasive it? We are talking about eternal suffering after death here, and that is scary! Go away with your cold logic, mister.

polytheistwitch

I am ok with being called functionally insane.I can still go about my day happy and free. 

just_sayin

@Joeseph

BOOK 1

Chap. 28

...[Celsus] accuses [Jesus] of having "invented his birth from a virgin," and upbraids Him with being "born in a certain Jewish village, of a poor woman of the country, who gained her subsistence by spinning, and who was turned out of doors by her husband, a carpenter by trade, because she was convicted of adultery; that after being driven away by her husband, and wandering about for a time, she disgracefully gave birth to Jesus, an illegitimate child, who having hired himself out as a servant in Egypt on account of his poverty, and having there ALLEGEDLY acquired some miraculous powers, on which the Egyptians greatly pride themselves, returned to his own country, highly elated on account of them, and by means of these proclaimed himself a God."...

First the word ALLEGEDLY does not appear in the Greek text.  You can see the official English translation here:

28. For he [Celsus] represents the Jew disputing with Jesus, and confuting Him, as he thinks, on many points; and in the first place, he accuses Him of having invented his birth from a virgin, and upbraids Him with being born in a certain Jewish village, of a poor woman of the country, who gained her subsistence by spinning, and who was turned out of doors by her husband, a carpenter by trade, because she was convicted of adultery; that after being driven away by her husband, and wandering about for a time, she disgracefully gave birth to Jesus, an illegitimate child, who having hired himself out as a servant in Egypt on account of his poverty, and having there acquired some miraculous powers, on which the Egyptians greatly pride themselves, returned to his own country, highly elated on account of them, and by means of these proclaimed himself a God.

You might want to let the folks at WeHateGod.com know they are altering texts.

Celsus was an enemy of Christianity.  You would expect such a person to say bad things about Jesus.  However, even in the midst of his screeching he admits that Jesus had miraculous powers.  Tell me, if you are putting down your enemy, do you claim that they have superhuman powers?  No, you don't give them superhuman abilities.  Thanks for sharing and affirming that Jesus performed miracles.

The assessment of the sanity of Jesus first occurs in the gospels. The Gospel of Mark reports the opinion of members of his family who believe that Jesus "is beside himself." Some psychiatrists, religious scholars and writers explain that, according to the gospels, Jesus's family (Mark 3:21),[4] some followers (John 7:20,[5] see also John 11:41–53),[6] and contemporaries, at various points in time, regarded him as delusional, possessed by demons, or insane.[2][3][7][8][9][10]

And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, "He is beside himself". And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Be-el′zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons".

— Mark 3:21–22, RSV[11]

The accusation contained in the Gospel of John is more literal:

There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. Many of them said, "He has a demon, and he is mad; why listen to him?" Others said, "These are not the sayings of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"

— John 10:19–21, RSV[12]

Two of Jesus' brothers, James and Jude, became disciples of Jesus.  James became the leader of the church in Jerusalem.  This is great evidence that as 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 says, James saw the resurrected Jesus, and that this convinced him of Jesus' divinity.  James went to his death, as Josephus notes, because of his refusal to denounce his brother and the resurrection.  Wow, you just help establish that even though James initially thought Jesus off his rocker, that the evidence of the resurrection was so persuasive to him that he became a follower of Christ.  Thanks for the help.  

Thanks for setting me up to score.

Joeseph

@just_sayin


ARGUMENT TOPIC : PENTECOSTAL YOUNG EARTHER JUST LYING IS IN A RAGE AGAIN.

CELSUS WHEN HE USES THE TERM " MIRACULOUS " IS REFERRING TO WHAT WAS  COMMON PLACE IN THE TIME OF JESUS AS SO CALLED WONDER WORKERS , MIRACLE MONGERS WERE A SCOURGE OF SOCIETY THEN , SO MUCH SO THE ROMANS HAD STRICT LAWS FORBIDDING THEIR ACTIVITIES  .....YOU DIDNT KNOW THIS.......

Don't sulk now I'm not finished with your beating just yet........

I' m not aware of a site called we hate God and couldn't care less what they say , if I say the word " allegedly " appeared it did.

Also thank you for including verses about the insanity of Jesus I think his own mother would be a good judge of his sanity she thought him nuts thats enough for me .......you just got canned ......again 


The resurrection never happened can you post up James signed account of such ......OUCH another thumping for just lying ......



Young earther and penticostal Just Lying may ask the spirit to give him his next response he needs help........

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw


You are a prime example of how evil atheism can be.


Yet you're the ex corrupt cop not me .......interesting.....

Joeseph

@polytheistwitch

Good , harmless lunatics can be amusing .....

MayCaesar

polytheistwitch said:

I am ok with being called functionally insane.I can still go about my day happy and free. 

This is something worth commenting on. You see, when we have not experienced an alternative, we often think that everything is fine - for example, according to the runaways' testimonies, North Koreans largely think that they live in a good country and their lives are amazing. However, the moment you peek outside and see the lush and vibrant forest beyond the wasteland, you realize that you have been living a very sad life. I certainly have had many revelations in my life when suddenly something would make a lot of sense and my past way of acting in certain situations or thinking about certain things would become unsustainable. When something like this happens in your life, you can never go back to the place you were in before, even if at the time you saw nothing wrong with it.

Can one "just go about his day happy and free" when believing in fairy tales? Sure. You might not see any problems with believing in a series of falsehoods when those falsehoods are so far removed from your everyday life. So what if you are wrong about existence of god, or gods, or spirits, or whatever? It is not like you are going to have a heart attack tomorrow over this error, and this error does seem to infuse your life with meaning, so what exactly is the problem?

Yet the moment you ditch a system of false beliefs, it is as if you have been surrounded by a thick fog your whole life and only now you finally can look around and see the world clearly. It is like exiting Plato's cave: going back will be seen as the biggest torment you can imagine. All these imaginary beings in your head are not just a fun mental exercise: at best, they appropriate the resources of your brain that could otherwise be put towards something useful - and at worst, they spread around and find their way into every mental domain you dive into. Theists on this website do not just talk nonsense when talking about religion: they talk nonsense when talking about anything, because religious thinking has put its roots everywhere and the same fallacies they have to engage in to rationalize their religious beliefs inevitably are adopted when thinking about anything else.

So yes, you can be happy and not worry about anything while believing in outlandish nonsense... Much like a North-Korean can be happy and not worry about anything while believing that his country is great and his leader is benevolent. Ignorance is bliss - as long as you keep your expectations from life appropriately low. Unfortunately, life tends to punish this strategy eventually. That North-Korean may one day find himself in a concentration camp, or with a child who died from malnutrition, or in the middle of a civil war caused by the collapse of the regime. Then his happiness will be gone and he will be deeply confused: "What happened?"

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@Joeseph

His buddy on here is a Charismatic Pentecostal who believe they commune with the Holy spirit through tounges they also believe that the holy spirit works through them to heal , give prophecies and preform miracles.

True, that one runs from his own identity. He once tried to tell me the bible wasn't his source for his views. And of course never explains how he can falsify the god theory.

I think you are mistaken.  In debates about the origin of the universe and origin of life I have avoided making Biblical references and just made a case based on the evidence of the complexity of the universe and life.  That isn't a condemnation of the Bible.  

I don't know that I can falsify God.  God exists beyond space-time.  I don't have the ability to even fully comprehend that.  But I can infer that if something happens that is not physically possible then that suggests a miracle - like the universe coming from nothing, or life coming from non-life, or a guy whose amputated limb grows back 2 years later, over night, or a guy dies on a cross and resurrects 3 days later with lots of eye witnesses.

Atheists believe in miracles - at least 10 miracle level blockages for chemical evolution.  They believe in their miracles, only problem is they don't believe in the God needed to bring them about.  just sayin

No I'm not mistaken. It wasn't origin that I was thinking of. Though you've made no case for not knowing exactly how the universe came about, means "god did it". As you have no evidence and your illogic behind it is circular, special pleading for ignorance to mean 'god did it'. And you have erroneously assumed the big bang supports the "In the beginning"  biblical narrative. You have made assertions about 'atheism' not allowing scientists to see the connection or deny the big bang theory, so this denial is just another lie.

But I was thinking of specifically when you got caught lyingly accusing me of bringing up your elf god in a thread you had already actively been talking about and defending and tagging ricky's  religious views about gays to others members BEFORE I posted criticizing your defense of ricky's preaching. Then you denied your motivation had anything to do with scripture thus not acting in your gods will as your book commands you once you accept its 'sacrifice' and believe in it. You denied it for several exchanges as I recall. 

Of course we do. Natures full of miracles. 10 problems for science who have some evidence including chemicals that are in our bodies right now, but that we just don't have near enough to know how they originated. So with your blinding hubris driven faith you proudly assert baseless theories of magical fairies creating with no evidence and of course out side of time/space reality. To support ancient primitive views claiming the earth was hear before the sun all the while foolishly thinking science got you there. Which you then conveniently assert it's cause it's faith and you don't understand god very well you need not falsify your theory, but science still got you there you believe. Your debate skills just fall seriously short, no offense.

polytheistwitch

@MayCaesar I was an atheist for a very long time before I found religion so I don't really feel like I'm missing out on anything. My views on science haven't changed or my morals for that matter going from atheist to theist. I'm not sure what you would want me to be putting my time to and if I was I don't see how that would benefit you in any way ,shape or form. I noticed that atheists in their goal to not be part of the group or to be non-conformist often want people to be part of a group and conformist. My life honestly has no more or less impact on total strangers or even the people I know for me being a theist. I'm kind of out on the point that I just don't want to be involved in other people's crap and I'm not really sure I want to involved in mine. So anybody that kind of stays away because of something I'm doing I'm okay with that 

MayCaesar

@polytheistwitch

I was talking about piercing the fog of confusion and getting clarity generally, and going from religiosity to non-religiosity alone does not constitute it. There are many ways to be confused, and some atheists are much more confused than some theists. The point is, once you see the blind spots that you had before, there is no going back, and you cannot believe that back when you had them you did not feel like you were missing something important. Of course, in the future you might realize that this development itself constituted a blind spot, and your original outlook was correct - only now you truly appreciate and understand that outlook, while in the past it was a result of confusion. It is possible to arrive at correct conclusions through flawed reasoning, yet improving the reasoning is always worth it.

I do not know why you assume that atheism implies the goal to not be part of the group or to be non-conformist. I certainly know a lot of highly conformist atheists that belong to various groups - used to live in a country full of atheist communists, for instance. "Atheism", for that matter, is a loaded term; I prefer to talk about "non-religiosity" or "non-theism" which means disassociation from religion and lack of interest in it, rather than anti-religion. Much like someone who is not a basketball player: we do not assume that said player is against basketball - just not interested in basketball.

I do want to point out that you are a very different kind of a theist than those who in the context of this discussion would be called "insane". Nothing in what you say tells me that your religiosity has corrupted your thinking utterly. It is different with the two individuals @Joeseph was talking about who are intellectually and morally deeply corrupt exactly because of the coping mechanisms they have developed trying to justify their beliefs in the face of the conflict with the evidence.
I have a few religious friends myself and they are all cool people. I do not have friends like @RickeyHoltsclaw who is just a complete nutcase.

Factfinder

polytheistwitch said:

@MayCaesar I was an atheist for a very long time before I found religion so I don't really feel like I'm missing out on anything. My views on science haven't changed or my morals for that matter going from atheist to theist. I'm not sure what you would want me to be putting my time to and if I was I don't see how that would benefit you in any way ,shape or form. I noticed that atheists in their goal to not be part of the group or to be non-conformist often want people to be part of a group and conformist. My life honestly has no more or less impact on total strangers or even the people I know for me being a theist. I'm kind of out on the point that I just don't want to be involved in other people's crap and I'm not really sure I want to involved in mine. So anybody that kind of stays away because of something I'm doing I'm okay with that 

Interesting. You told me before you interact daily with all spirits and deities and were thinking of contacting angels whom you up to this point have avoided. You also said they contact you and introduce themselves. So with that said, how did you go from atheist (as in rejects all imagined gods to date) to theist accepting just about all gods and anything remotely resembling a god? 

polytheistwitch

@Factfinder So I was raised in atheist with some exposure Christianity though I never had any interest in it. Midway through high school I had a very clear vision of Jesus Christ though it did not bring me to the religion, however I started to develop an interest in the occult and started studying various religions. Towards the end of college I had what you might call a salvation experience where I accepted Christ as my savior. I went for seven or eight years of considering myself a Christian but never reading the Bible or attending church . Then we started to go to church and that lasted for about 2 years at which point I had my NDE. Immediately after that I believed in nothing and that lasted for about a year and a half and then I started feeling like I was missing out not having a regular spiritual practice. I missed having prayer, Bible study and feeling like there was something else. So I was looking for something I could do that might be spiritual but wasn't faith-based and that's when I started meditation. Within about 6 to 8 months of starting meditation I was soon practicing witchcraft, engaging with my ancestors and working with various spirits. At which points deities started coming into the equation. Now I'm pretty much open to working with anything that isn't contrary to my best interest. And at this point I feel I protect myself enough energetically that I don't have to worry about negative entities. Angel started to appear as I started working Reiki and basically just to put it out there over the course of all this time I've had two more visions involving Jesus. But I would never go back to Christianity because it is not in any way shape or form a legitimate religion and it is certainly not anything Jesus wants connected to. But to me spirituality is an internal thing and it's a relationship thing it has nothing to do with physical sciences or the physical world. So I have no problem with exploring scientific options for things like how life began. If anything I imagine the chemical process started and at some point the universe probably develops some type of self-awareness but I don't think it's like the deities I interact with it's just too big and too non-physical to even engage with human beings on a level that involves speech. That might not make any sense most people that encounter oneness with the universe experience it as light and a feeling of love. I could get into a lot about animism and local spirits being stronger and easy to work with than as you go out into the universe. But that's a whole another topic sorry. This is ever simplified everything happened in stages and there was dealing with acceptance and rejecting things that didn't work and that kind of stuff.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; You will not be amused when you stand before Jesus in the Judgment of the Condemned...

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I won't be amused ? But I love magic I will ask him to produce some wine from thin air ,maybe saw him in half and ask him to resurrect ......does he do Card tricks?

Joeseph

@MayCaesar

Your quiet right in what you say.

I don't like doing it but I deliberately targeted these two hate filled individuals because they consistently lie about what we are saying and pretend they are addressing our arguments by inventing arguments we are not making and attacking them.

Like you I've many lovely relgious friends who bear no comparison to these two truly nasty people , I often wonder what part of christianity they think they follow.

My wife is Catholic also.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; Without the intercession of Jesus in your life to mediate your sin before the Father you will perish horribly in your sin and death in Hell...trust in Jesus, find life, free your soul from the demon who torments you...find the skills to honor your family and ensure their life throughout Eternity...you are culpable for the decisions of your family concerning their relationship or absence thereof relevant to Jesus and eternal life.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MayCaesar ; You are lost and dying in sin and Hell due your rejection of Jesus as Messiah...Christianity is not a "religion" but a Path provided by our Creator to reunite human kind back to Himself through faith and thereby destroy the works of the Devil via selfless love. You are mentally and spiritually sick and Jesus is your only Hope of life both now and in Eternity. All evidence points to the necessity for Jesus and His intercession in your life if you desire Truth and life in Eternity. Why not humble yourself and trust in Jesus and LIVE?

Factfinder

@just_sayin

God exists beyond space-time.

On what authority do you base such an absurd notion? God isn't established fact. Space and time are.

Barnardot

@just_sayin @Factfinder ;
God exists beyond space-time.

Are you so serious as to use such an old corny throw away line that says and means totally nothing at all?

For as long as you stay hooked on all that religion you’re going to keep thinking and saying such totally cringe worthy crap. 

Haven’t you got the message yet? Nobody except deluded nits actually believe in God nower days. There all just playing the game and taking advantage of you.

MayCaesar

Joeseph said:

@MayCaesar

Your quiet right in what you say.

I don't like doing it but I deliberately targeted these two hate filled individuals because they consistently lie about what we are saying and pretend they are addressing our arguments by inventing arguments we are not making and attacking them.

Like you I've many lovely relgious friends who bear no comparison to these two truly nasty people , I often wonder what part of christianity they think they follow.

My wife is Catholic also.

In the end, it all comes down to who one is as a person. Religion or not, some people are just dishonest scumbags by nature, and religion will merely amplify their dishonesty. Conversely, if someone is a good person, then they generally will interpret religion in a benevolent way. I realized a while ago that nobody is actually religious at the core, people just use religion to justify their behaviors - and, conversely, theocrats use this human vulnerability to control the population. At the very least, certainly nobody derives their morals from religion: you cannot find a single person today who agrees with everything the Bible or the Quran postulate.

Our friends we mentioned and, I presume, your wife follow religion more as a cultural phenomenon, a set of habits and rituals, than as literal truth shared with humanity by god. I have two Turkish Muslim friends, for instance, and both hate the guts of Erdogan and despise Islamic fundamentalism in general. I am always highly respectful of their views and do not prod them, but I have carefully asked them a couple of times whether they believe that Quran was the word of Allah, and their answers were something like, "Quran contains a lot of ancient wisdom, and also a lot of outdated barbaric verses. It is a complex book written by humans who interpreted Allah's directions loosely". I have absolutely no issue with such a position. I still think that they are needlessly complicating and limiting their lives by following Islam, but that is their business.

And, of course, regardless of one's religiosity, a truth-seeker will always engage with criticisms of their position honestly. When someone has to pretend that their critics have said what they have not actually said, you know the person could not care less about what is true.

Factfinder

polytheistwitch said:

@Factfinder So I was raised in atheist with some exposure Christianity though I never had any interest in it. Midway through high school I had a very clear vision of Jesus Christ though it did not bring me to the religion, however I started to develop an interest in the occult and started studying various religions. Towards the end of college I had what you might call a salvation experience where I accepted Christ as my savior. I went for seven or eight years of considering myself a Christian but never reading the Bible or attending church . Then we started to go to church and that lasted for about 2 years at which point I had my NDE. Immediately after that I believed in nothing and that lasted for about a year and a half and then I started feeling like I was missing out not having a regular spiritual practice. I missed having prayer, Bible study and feeling like there was something else. So I was looking for something I could do that might be spiritual but wasn't faith-based and that's when I started meditation. Within about 6 to 8 months of starting meditation I was soon practicing witchcraft, engaging with my ancestors and working with various spirits. At which points deities started coming into the equation. Now I'm pretty much open to working with anything that isn't contrary to my best interest. And at this point I feel I protect myself enough energetically that I don't have to worry about negative entities. Angel started to appear as I started working Reiki and basically just to put it out there over the course of all this time I've had two more visions involving Jesus. But I would never go back to Christianity because it is not in any way shape or form a legitimate religion and it is certainly not anything Jesus wants connected to. But to me spirituality is an internal thing and it's a relationship thing it has nothing to do with physical sciences or the physical world. So I have no problem with exploring scientific options for things like how life began. If anything I imagine the chemical process started and at some point the universe probably develops some type of self-awareness but I don't think it's like the deities I interact with it's just too big and too non-physical to even engage with human beings on a level that involves speech. That might not make any sense most people that encounter oneness with the universe experience it as light and a feeling of love. I could get into a lot about animism and local spirits being stronger and easy to work with than as you go out into the universe. But that's a whole another topic sorry. This is ever simplified everything happened in stages and there was dealing with acceptance and rejecting things that didn't work and that kind of stuff.

Is there any knowledge any of the beings you talk to confirmable beyond that of human knowledge? That we couldn't possibly know except that they told you? 

polytheistwitch

@Factfinder I'm not sure what you mean by human knowledge. Obviously if we as humans know it they would know it or could know it. I'm sure some of them are aware of things that happen prehistory because they existed then. I don't usually ask about that kind of stuff don't find it all that important and my day to day life. And I'm also one of those people that figures I know all these great secrets of the world in the universe once I'm dead. As far as you knowing other than that they told me you'd have to engage with them yourself I would assume if you wanted something more direct than this is what they told me. But I'm not sure how interested you being what I've discussed with them since it has to do with me personally for things they expect of me personally. As I said before religion for me is engaging with deity in a relationship type way. I don't expect my experience to be shared or similar to how they might interact with someone else. Even though when talking to people you often find there are things that are in common.

Factfinder

polytheistwitch said:

@Factfinder I'm not sure what you mean by human knowledge. Obviously if we as humans know it they would know it or could know it. I'm sure some of them are aware of things that happen prehistory because they existed then. I don't usually ask about that kind of stuff don't find it all that important and my day to day life. And I'm also one of those people that figures I know all these great secrets of the world in the universe once I'm dead. As far as you knowing other than that they told me you'd have to engage with them yourself I would assume if you wanted something more direct than this is what they told me. But I'm not sure how interested you being what I've discussed with them since it has to do with me personally for things they expect of me personally. As I said before religion for me is engaging with deity in a relationship type way. I don't expect my experience to be shared or similar to how they might interact with someone else. Even though when talking to people you often find there are things that are in common.

Well this is the problem. You've no way to demonstrate what you claim is true. No revealing knowledge simply because you don't ask? I would ask but none of those entities you talk to do not talk to me. Is it that everything not physical gets offended for petty reasons like not believing in them when they hide?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Kinda like the "religion of evolution" and the "religion of atheism."

polytheistwitch

@Factfinder Well some of it has to do with you don't engage in any kind of practice that would bring them in. And if they did show up would you believe it was them or that you had a mental illness. And if you did believe it was them would you do offerings for them would you do a petition to work with them. It's really not a problem for me I'm perfectly content. Have you ever and I mean this sincerely decided to take 3 months and every day do something to engage with a deity to see if you get anything back? And I don't mean the God of Abraham I mean some other deity that you might actually enjoy working with if they showed up.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; Kinda like the "religion of evolution" and the "religion of atheism."

Science and atheism are not religions, idi*ot. It's exactly like fairytale elf god religion though. Irrelevant in reality and intelligent circles. Well, till the voices in your head tell you to do things like that Christian in history, oh yeah, Hitler.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Evolution is NOT "science" and atheism is a religion with a denominational affiliation called "secular humanism." You are the "fool" of both.

Factfinder

polytheistwitch said:

@Factfinder Well some of it has to do with you don't engage in any kind of practice that would bring them in. And if they did show up would you believe it was them or that you had a mental illness. And if you did believe it was them would you do offerings for them would you do a petition to work with them. It's really not a problem for me I'm perfectly content. Have you ever and I mean this sincerely decided to take 3 months and every day do something to engage with a deity to see if you get anything back? And I don't mean the God of Abraham I mean some other deity that you might actually enjoy working with if they showed up.

Well why would I have to "engage" in a practice to bring them in? Especially with deities? They would supposedly know people are asking questions and killing others in their names. Are you saying one has to alter their mind with drugs or chanting of some sort to enter into a trance of some kind? How do you know when one shows up and you don't have a mental illness? I'm not trying to be insulting but you're describing invisible friends and nothing more as you don't even bother getting tangible information from them that can help humanity improve.

polytheistwitch

@Factfinder You're not required to do anything. That's really cute that you brought drugs into it. You're probably right I'm a huge drug head it's good that you finally noticed that because now you don't have to worry about it. I really don't care about humanity or improving humanity. I'm not responsible for anyone but myself and my children until there are certain age. I'm certainly not required to make your life or anyone else's life easier by asking questions of a deity you don't even believe exist. I'm not some Christian on here talking about how on this wonderful person who wants to save souls and make the world a better place. My goal is to improve myself and make my world a better place for me and if other people benefit from that good for them. I imagine you probably view the world the same and if you don't I'd like to know what you're doing to make humanity as a whole better for everybody other than being an atheist.

Factfinder

polytheistwitch said:

@Factfinder You're not required to do anything. That's really cute that you brought drugs into it. You're probably right I'm a huge drug head it's good that you finally noticed that because now you don't have to worry about it. I really don't care about humanity or improving humanity. I'm not responsible for anyone but myself and my children until there are certain age. I'm certainly not required to make your life or anyone else's life easier by asking questions of a deity you don't even believe exist. I'm not some Christian on here talking about how on this wonderful person who wants to save souls and make the world a better place. My goal is to improve myself and make my world a better place for me and if other people benefit from that good for them. I imagine you probably view the world the same and if you don't I'd like to know what you're doing to make humanity as a whole better for everybody other than being an atheist.

Hey I was just trying to figure out how polytheism works. You did say they don't talk to me because I do not try an engage them? 

If you find peace in your beliefs then I wish you happiness. I do appreciate your candor and the fact you're not attempting to impose your faith on others. 

Being an atheist has no bearing on what one does for or to humanity. It simply means I do not believe any of the imagined gods to date exist. That said I try to offer mutual respect for others and that's about all anyone can do to improve humanity from a personal perspective. Of course I won't be a door mat either though. I just thought someone with your access could bring game changing information to the table if you did talk to deities. 

MayCaesar

polytheistwitch said:

Have you ever and I mean this sincerely decided to take 3 months and every day do something to engage with a deity to see if you get anything back? And I don't mean the God of Abraham I mean some other deity that you might actually enjoy working with if they showed up.

I trust your sincerity - however, you have to understand how it sounds to someone who is not religious. If I walk up to you and say, "Hey, if you eat exactly 3 tomatoes per day for the next 90 days, then on the 91st day you will no longer need to eat to survive", what will you think? Even in the absence of any knowledge about anything, you would, at least, want to see some evidence of it being a worthwhile endeavor. I, for one, would ask, "Can you please point me at a few people who have gone through that and no longer need to eat to survive?" If the answer is "No", then the conversation is pretty much over.

Same here. You are suggesting a serious commitment to something the evidence of which is nil. Furthermore, if we know anything about psychology, it is that humans are incredibly good at convincing themselves that something that they want to be true is actually true. If I seriously, genuinely try to commune with a deity for 90 days in a row, I will probably find a way to trick myself into believing that I have communed with a deity. What I want is a solid evidence in advance that said deity actually exists. Otherwise it is an equivalent of showing up at the same place every day for 3 months because someone told you that your soulmate will appear there eventually, with you having nothing but their word to go by. Nobody in their right mind will do that.

Given how good humans are at self-deception, trusting voices in one's head is the last thing you want to do. What you actually want to do is to have external confirmation that what you believe exists actually does. Otherwise there is no way for you to tell real communication with a deity from fantasies.

polytheistwitch

@MayCaesar Asking someone to not eat would cause their death. To imply I'm going to kill him by asking him to do an experiment is complete idiocy.  Thought you guys were all about testing things. If I needed for you to believe that my deity exists for me to work with that deity I obviously wouldn't be doing that. 

MayCaesar

@polytheistwitch

My point was not that it is dangerous, but that the investment is not warranted by the expected benefit. I am all for testing things when I see some promise in the test. Testing random things based on someone's personal testimony alone with no solid evidence, and in a way that requires a multi-month commitment to something, is not sensible.

It is "meditation" all over again. So many people have told me about the benefits of meditation, and I have tried getting into it on numerous occasions - it just does not work for me. On the other hand, I do get much of the same benefits as people claim meditation provides during my morning runs. I think people achieve inner peace in different ways, and what works for some might not work for others.

And then I will hear someone like Sam Harris say, "Guys, it took me years full of meditation retreats to truly appreciate its value". Well, sorry, Sam, but I am not going to invest years into a goose chase given that so far I have seen no evidence whatsoever of meditation holding any promise for me.

There are gazillions of things I could be investing my time into. One will have to do better than "Why not just try it?" To convince me that that particular thing is the one I should try in favor of all others.

polytheistwitch

@MayCaesar Then don't. Inner piece  isn't going to happen from it anyway, lol.

Joeseph

@MayCaesar


It is "meditation" all over again. So many people have told me about the benefits of meditation, and I have tried getting into it on numerous occasions - it just does not work for me. On the other hand, I do get much of the same benefits as people claim meditation provides during my morning runs. I think people achieve inner peace in different ways, and what works for some might not work for others.

Yes again I find myself on the same page.

I tried the whole meditation thing during my Buddhist phase when I left Cathlocisim , it seemed like a chore and like you I agree inner peace comes in different ways. 

For me rising early  making coffee , opening the back door and letting the morning in is pure joy then beginning a new painting in silence is beyond comparison for me .

It's strange but many years ago I got talking to a Buddhist monk who told me most people totally misunderstand  meditation as they make it all about getting to a place of calm and it then becomes a chore and ego driven as something to be achieved and goal driven ,he recommended doing as you and I do as in totally immerse yourself in something you totally enjoy that brings you fulfillment and that becomes your meditation,  seems like you and I reached that state by discovering this by doing .

Joeseph

@MayCaesar

It's remarkable to me that all these people who claim relationships with these supernatural entities never think to ask them of possible cures for cancer or Alzheiemers etc,etc,  they neverchave anything remotely of value to say regarding the thoughts of these entities.

Joeseph

@MayCaesar

Our friends we mentioned and, I presume, your wife follow religion more as a cultural phenomenon, a set of habits and rituals, than as literal truth shared with humanity by god. 

Yes " habits" is a good term , it's strange also that only last week she told me she doesn't like to think about some of the stuff I question believers about as in the virgin birth , from childhood here the Virgin Mary was worshipped and prayed to many people still do.

Also I know as a Russian it's hard for you to get the full flavour of relgious indoctrination especially over here , I went to a Catholic school like my wife where it was a norm to be beaten to a pulp by a teacher if you couldn't answer a question from the Cathecism as in What is Hell ? I stlil, know the answers word for word , I also know mass in Latin and Irish as well as English , they really hammered a job on us.

It's incredibly difficult to break that bond as family, friends etc , etc all try to persuade you otherwise , I always danced to my own drum so just did my thing and ignored the objections.

Your Muslim friends I would respect and have no arguments with like you I have little problems with people like that.


of course, regardless of one's religiosity, a truth-seeker will always engage with criticisms of their position honestly. When someone has to pretend that their critics have said what they have not actually said, you know the person could not care less about what is true

Yes the two people I mentioned have to address arguments You ,  FF or me are not making as it makes attacking them so much easier.

polytheistwitch

Only one god claims omnipotence. Not sure why you think curing disease is in all deity's field house. Some are not even immortal. Not sure why you think they even have superpowers they're not comic book heroes. And I don't recall Superman saving people from cancer.

Joeseph

@polytheistwitch

Only one god claims omnipotence .

Nonsense, this depends on who you ask and still no god claims such humans claim it for their individual fantasies.


Not sure why you think curing disease is in all deity's field house.

Why wouldn't it be?


Some are not even immortal.

That's another claim you've zero proof for.


 Not sure why you think they even have superpowers they're not comic book heroes.

Again that depends on who you ask.


And I don't recall Superman saving people from cancer.

Superman is a character in fiction just like your imaginings regarding spirits so yes I  can see your point.

polytheistwitch

You continue to say things that aren't accurate in regards to mythology surrounding deities. If you're not even going to check things before you say them there's no point to discuss them with you. Paganism is not monotheism. There are numerous tales of the gods being mortal. There are numerous tales of the god's not fixing things for people because it's not their place to do so. Because most pagan religions believe in fate that not even the gods can alter. Obviously there's a lot of myths out there because there's a lot of gods out there and it might be difficult for you to read all of them but you could at least take 20 minutes to check are any of the gods immortal on Google and find out that what I said is accurate. At least in the way of mythology which is all we can argue because if the fallback is always deities don't exist then there's no point for you to be here discussing it with anybody. Just cut and paste the same response no matter what's posted instead of constantly going back to there's no such thing as a god or gods. That's not debate.

Joeseph

@polytheistwitch

You continue to say things that aren't accurate in regards to mythology surrounding deities.

But I made no comments on such expect to say  "that depends on who you ask " to this claim you made   

"Only one god claims omnipotence."

My position is that I'm not interested in paganism or it's ridiculous fantasies , I never invited this exchange I was talking to May not you yet you felt it necessary to get a say in regarding your position on imaginary entities and what they can and cannot do , which again is just speculatative nonsense so yes there is no debate to be had, but if you're going to make uninvited comments directly to me I will respond 

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw


RickeyHoltsClaw, this Religion Forums number one BIBLE FOOL, and runaway from same!

YOUR BIBLE DUMB QUOTE AGAIN ABOUT JESUS "ALLEGEDLY" BEING THE MESSIAH!:  "You are lost and dying in sin and Hell due your rejection of Jesus as Messiah."

How many times do you want to be made the outright BIBLE FOOL upon your misguided notion of Jesus being the Messiah, when he is not! UNDERSTOOD BIBLE DUNCE?!

Not to overtax your feeble pseudo-christian brain regarding this topic, I will only give you the "Short Version" of Jesus not being the Messiah, where if need be because of your Bible Stoopidity, if I need to go further with you upon this topic, then so be it, where I will really BIBLE SLAP YOU SILLY®️ in front of the membership at your laughable expense!  GET IT, BIBLE DOLT?

JESUS IS NOT THE MESSIAH FOR DUMMIES; LIKE RICKEYHOLTSCLAW, THE SHORT VERSION!

According to the prophecies within the JUDEO-Christian bible, the Messiah of the Christian faith must be a descendant of King David “through the flesh,” aka, sexual relations, whereas Paul substantiates this biblical axiom herewith: 

1. “Jesus the Messiah, our Lord, who was descended from David "according to the flesh.” (Romans 1:3).

2. "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;" (Acts 2:30)

Barring the FACT that Jesus never was raised up to sit on David’s throne, which is another "contradiction" in the Bible; the following biblical facts are presented in Jesus NOT BEING THE MESSIAH because he was not born "through the flesh" of King David, period! 

3. Luke claims that Mary was the cousin of Elizabeth, who he says was a descendant of Aaron, the high priest: “In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron.” (Luke 1:5-7).  This passage directly places Mary in the tribe of LEVI because Aaron was a Levite, therefore Elizabeth, a cousin of Mary, was a Levite through family relations, MAKING MARY A LEVITE TOO!  (Exodus 4:14-15)

4. Therefore, Mary's incestuous celestial impregnation by her own son Jesus, as being Yahweh god incarnate though his spirit, is moot because Jesus IS NOT from the “fruit of the loins” from the House of David as a requirement for Jesus to be the Messiah, because Mary was a LEVITE! 2+2=4!  

5. Deduced to its irreducible primary, Mary was NOT from the line of David, but from the line of LEVI, and Joseph being from the line of David was not the paternal father of Jesus impregnating Mary “through the fruit of the loins “ of David,” as required for the Messiah!

 THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT THE MESSIAH, PERIOD!!!

RICKEY, heads up, at your embarrassing expense once again in front of the membership, if you want to be more bible STU-PID than you are now, mention that Luke 3:28-38 is Mary’s tribal affiliation from the line of David, I DARE YOU Bible dunce, because this would be the real fun in making you the continued BIBLE FOOL! Understood?!

.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ;  Jesus is in the genealogy of David via Mary via Heli, Mary's father...

The Genealogy of Jesus Christ

23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.  Luke 3 (ESV)

_______________________________

In Matthew 1 which is written to Jewish audience, Matthew uses Joseph's linage and begins with Abraham. In Luke, Luke provides the genealogy of Jesus through Messiah's actual blood-line via Mary via Mary's father, Heli and carries that genealogy back to Adam, the first man . Jesus was not born of the seed of Joseph but of Mary as Genesis 3:15 tells you that Messiah would enter Time through the "seed of the woman" to do battle with Satan, not the seed of man for if Messiah had been born of Adam via Joseph, Jesus would have inherited the Adamic sin-nature via federal headship and Jesus would have required sin atonement like you and I born of Adam's seed via the male genome as Adam incurred the greater culpability in Eden as Adam received the command to not compromise with evil directly from Elohim while Eve received the edict via hearsay via her husband, Adam. This is why Jesus is "born of a woman" and not the man but the Holy Spirit.

 

MayCaesar

@polytheistwitch

Of course I will not: you have not put out a very convincing sales pitch. I need a bit more than "just have faith that it will happen, and it will!". This is the 21st century, the age of Nigerian princes and crypto-insider attractive Asian women, and our nonsense detectors have evolved accordingly.




@Joeseph

I suppose the place we all arrive at by different means is that of "impartial self-reflection" or something like that. When we observe our minds without any judgement and just learn more about them. It is calming and relaxing because, for a while, we are free from all the clutter - echoes of our childhood traumas, worry about the future and so on - and it is also revealing as we learn to not take our moment-to-moment thoughts so seriously. How we arrive there depends on us. There are more contemplative, slow-paced people who can simply sit in silence and enjoy it - and then there are highly energetic people who thrive in the middle of the action and get extremely restless when nothing is happening. Meditation advocates come from the assumption that the former is somehow intrinsically better than the latter and that, moreover, everyone can become more like the former through practice - but it simply does not appear to be the case.

I find that I am a person of action, and when I try to suppress the action that begs to come out of me, I get restless and anxious. My energy is either released by me doing something active (including possibly pure intellectual work), or by me getting stuck in my head and overthinking everything. So, whenever in doubt, I always go for the action, however uncomfortable it may be. I will often just chat up a stranger while waiting for a green light at a crossing if I feel that I am getting trapped in my inner world, and I end up feeling amazing and making someone's day in the process. Trying to stand still and just relax is incompatible with my physiology, and no Buddhist conditioning will ever change this.

Do you think that one of the reasons religion has become so popular is because people are afraid to experiment with their own minds/bodies and seek to adopt someone else's conclusions instead? There probably is a subset of people who find consolation in fantasizing about non-existent entities. Kind of like that memorization technique where you imagine a fictional place with a few shelves and start putting objects you want to remember on those shelves, building it up over time and referencing it every time you need to remember something - perhaps these people make up deities and outsource some ideas and memories to them. Then they tell others about those deities, and others start believing in them because they cannot think up of their own alternative. And once a given religion becomes popular enough, people can just adopt it and move on, even if religious thinking is fundamentally incompatible with their physiology.

Something I increasingly appreciate is how differently humans function from each other. The reason all these utopian societal organizations and ideologies have consistently led to disasters is because they tried to force everyone to adopt the same set of values, ideas and behaviors, while in reality they are only applicable to a small subset of people. There probably are some people in the world who would be perfectly happy in a communist society - but try to force it on millions of people indiscriminately, and you will get slavery, starvation and genocide.

One of the most revealing experiences I had was when giving a talk on Game Theory for a lab of cancer biologists. I spent about 10 minutes talking about the famous Prisoner's Dilemma. The question one of them asked me in the end stumped me: "But there are no prisons in the real world that work like this. What is the point of this example?" Trying to explain that it was just a mental exercise to illustrate the general point that there are situations where rational behavior of all actors leads to an objectively inferior outcome for everyone got me nowhere: they just could not get past the fact that the example was not very realistic, for as biologists they are used to think about concrete organisms that can be found in the nature. The concept of a "mental exercise", one that is at the core of my thinking, was completely alien to them.
Sometimes we think so differently from each other, we might as well be different species with different brain structure. This is the true, meaningful diversity, rather than all the race/gender/sexuality stuff.

polytheistwitch

@MayCaesar ;I think it's really awesome for the atheist that they have special brains that none of the other people on the planet have. I certainly have to wonder if there isn't a genetic component to believe or disbelief. Just like some people are more prone to alcoholism some of us are more prone to atheism/theism. Either way you can basically use it to say you have a superior position. Better brains, better DNA.