Trump v Harris debate , what did we learn?

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: The Value of Debates

Presidential debates serve several important functions:

1. Information dissemination:

- Debates help voters learn about candidates' positions on issues, especially for less politically engaged voters who may gain knowledge in the days following debates through media coverage.

2. Candidate evaluation:

- While they may not significantly change most voters' minds, debates allow voters to assess candidates' personalities, communication styles, and ability to perform under pressure.

3. Public engagement:

- Despite changes in media consumption, presidential debates still attract large audiences, with recent debates drawing 70-80 million viewers.

4. Indirect effects:

- Debates generate significant media attention before and after, which can influence public discourse and potentially shape voter perceptions over time.

5. Undecided voters:

- For the small percentage of truly undecided voters, debate performances can potentially influence their decisions, especially in close elections.

6. Accountability:

- Debates provide a platform for candidates to be questioned directly about their policies and records.

7. Democratic tradition:

- They serve as an important ritual in the democratic process, allowing voters to see candidates side-by-side addressing national issues.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: What We Learned

Some key fact checks from the Harris-Trump presidential debate:

1. On immigration and crime:

- Trump falsely claimed that immigrants in the country illegally have the "highest level of criminality." Research shows immigrants are actually less likely to be incarcerated than U.S.-born citizens.

2. On the economy:

- Trump exaggerated about inflation during his presidency, claiming he had "virtually no inflation." While inflation was lower under Trump, it wasn't zero.

- Harris's claim that Trump left office with "the worst unemployment since the Great Depression" is accurate in the context of the pandemic's impact.

3. On Afghanistan:

- Trump criticized the withdrawal as poorly managed, but fact-checkers noted the conflict spanned four presidencies and Trump had signed an agreement facilitating a swift exit.

4. On military engagement:

- Harris's claim that no active-duty military are in combat zones is technically accurate but overlooks troops in dangerous situations like Iraq and Syria.

5. On fracking:

- Harris's position on fracking has evolved. She initially supported a ban during her presidential campaign but later modified her stance.

6. On tariffs:

- Harris's claim about Trump's proposed tariffs potentially costing middle-class families $4,000 annually was deemed plausible based on analysis from a progressive think tank.

7. General observations:

- Fact-checkers noted that Trump made numerous false claims throughout the debate (CNN mentioned over 30).

- Harris was seen as taking charge of the debate narrative, often putting Trump on the defensive.

just_sayin

@JulesKorngold

 Trump falsely claimed that immigrants in the country illegally have the "highest level of criminality." Research shows immigrants are actually less likely to be incarcerated than U.S.-born citizens.

Your AI lied. The 'studies' are about LEGAL immigrants, not illegal ones.  That's a slight of hand there.  Legal immigrants have very different motivations than illegal ones do.  Not surprisingly, illegal immigrants don't tend to speak up and say to police when arrested 'hey, I'm also here in the country illegally.'  

Most illegal aliens routinely commit felonies

The vast majority of illegal aliens use fraudulently obtained Social Security numbers.  They possess fake drivers’ licenses, phony “green cards,” fraudulent birth certificates and any other documents that U.S. citizens and legal residents have.  In addition, they falsify I-9 forms under penalty of perjury. Thus, the average illegal alien routinely commits multiple felonies –forgery, Social Security fraud, identity theft, and perjury.

Why did you let your AI lie to you, Jules?

Also, Harris didn't get factchecked on claiming Trump was to blame for the Harris/Biden Administration's handling of immigration.  Trump built a wall, Biden/Harris tore it down.  Harris/Biden passed over 90 policy changes that made it easier for unlawful entrants to come into the country.  She said in 2019 she would do away with ICE, and would have the US government pay for illegal immigrants sex change operations.  

On the economy:

Your AI failed to fact check that Trump was right about inflation being over 20 percent higher since Biden/Harris took office.

Your AI also failed to mention that trillions of dollars in inflation was caused by the Inflation Reduction Act which Harris cast the deciding vote in.  Wow, how did your AI miss that one!!!!!

On Afghanistan:

Your AI failed to point out that Trump was not President when Biden pulled out of Afghanistan, even though his own advisers said not to do so.  Trump is not responsible for Biden's decisions.  Trump wasn't even in the room, but Harris was the last person in the room with Biden according to both of them.

Geez, Jules, did you use the DNC's own personal AI.  What were the sources of your AI?  Sounds like it was the DNC and their sycophants in the media to me.  

MayCaesar

Yeah, after 10 minutes of watching that I had had enough.

To be fair, compared to the travesty which was Trump-Biden debates - two senile old men yelling at each other - this was a substantial improvement. Both candidates mostly spoke in complete and coherent sentences and at least partially answered the questions they were asked. They rarely interrupted each other and were quite calm and composed.

That said, after 10 minutes I still had very little idea what their policies were. All I caught was that Trump wanted to increase tariffs and lower taxes, and Harris wanted to decrease tariffs and increase taxes. Everything else was either generic statements such as "We need to do something about immigration" or "We need to stop demonizing immigrants", or attacks on the opponent (similarly generic/vague). If I were seriously deciding to vote for one of these, this debate would have given me virtually zero information to go by.

Interestingly, for the first time I have seen it, Trump appeared to be the more mature person in the room. While he constantly deviated from the subject of the question and went on rants about unrelated things, he did not raise his voice much, and when Kamala spoke, he mostly patiently listened and even nodded at times. Kamala, on the other hand, made all kinds of disbelieving faces whenever Trump spoke about her, and had that weird giggle every few sentences... There is something seriously off about her. Which is surprising, since prosecutors typically are trained to be extremely emotionally resilient and cool under pressure. She behaved like in a drama class for 9 year-olds. Unlike someone like Hillary Clinton or Jeb Bush who were just unpleasant, but classy people, her persona is seriously disturbing.

As far as the election goes, as bad as both candidates are, Kamala's badness is off the charts. This has already been the worst inflation period in 50 years and the worst job market in 20+ years... It has been a complete slaughter for fresh graduates, where Harvard PhDs in math have to send out 2,000 applications to get 10 job interviews in one offer in a lousy startup. Kamala plans to double down on the policies that got the economy to this stage, and if she is elected, the next 4 years will be reminiscent of the Great Depression. Trump, with all his faults, at least has a basic understanding of economics, and just like the job market in his previous term was on fire, I expect it to, at least, recover should he be elected. He is still a pile of guano by historical standards though... This is just a really dark period for the American politics.

just_sayin

Personally, 't I did not expect much from either and I was not disappointed.  You weren't going to get a lot of details.  Even though I will support Trump over Harris, I think she did a better job than he did in the debate.  The biggest losers were ABC News.  

Factfinder

I would have liked to see Trump take some high ground and admit he might of handled Jan 6 better. Giving a heads up to Nancy Pelosi was just passing the buck and him admitting it could get ugly to her should have motivated him as commander in chief to send the extra security anyway to make it clear that he wouldn't stand for a violent transfer of power. I'll still support him reluctantly because he is better for the economy and that at the end of the day helps people on main street. Not the same old schemes of the left that will enrich her (Harris's) goony friends and continue to drive a wedge between the wealthy and the middle class at the middle class's expense.

I also thought it was hilarious how Harris over sold the "turn the page" angel as Trump kept pointing out that she had three years to fix the problems she caused to begin with and didn't so why should we believe she'll undo her own damage now? 

Wonder how many of the gullible will fall for that "turn the page" bull? That said I think it's not beyond the realm of possibility Trump may have given her the election on the Jan 6 issue. i hope it isn't so and I'd like them to have one more debate focused on well thought out policies.

RickeyHoltsclaw

I believe Harris was given the questions before the debate for prep and I believe she was wired to her debate team while on stage...I've watched this Marxist whore for years...she is not an impromptu speaker...the entire fiasco was rigged and ABC fact-checked Trump (incorrectly) four or five times and Harris...ZERO. Harris never elaborated on her "policies" concerning the border, the economy, but she was very articulate concerning the left's frothing over the shedding of innocent blood via abortion and a woman's perceived "right" to murder her own baby. If the low information voters of the United States put this political whore into the White House, the United States is done.

JulesKorngold

@RickeyHoltsclaw
You're a joke.  

RickeyHoltsclaw

@JulesKorngold ; You are a lost and defiled servant of Satan and being defined as a "joke" by Satan's servant is not dishonoring or insulting...just blind and baseless rhetoric from the Evil One.

JulesKorngold

@just_sayin

are illegal immigrants incarcerated more than us born citizens?

Research indicates that illegal immigrants are incarcerated at lower rates than U.S.-born citizens. A study analyzing 150 years of U.S. Census data found that immigrants have consistently been less likely to be incarcerated than native-born citizens. Since 1960, this gap has widened, with immigrants today being 60% less likely to be incarcerated than U.S.-born individuals[1]. 

Additionally, a study using data from the Texas Department of Public Safety found that undocumented immigrants had substantially lower crime rates than both native-born citizens and legal immigrants across various felony offenses. Specifically, U.S.-born citizens were over twice as likely to be arrested for violent crimes, 2.5 times more likely for drug crimes, and over four times more likely for property crimes compared to undocumented immigrants[2][6]. 

These findings challenge the perception that undocumented immigrants contribute significantly to crime, suggesting instead that they are less likely to be involved in criminal activities compared to native-born Americans[4][5].

Citations:

[1] Immigrants are significantly less likely to commit crimes than the U.S. ... https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2024/03/immigrants-are-significantly-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-the-us-born/

[2] Comparing Crime Rates Between Undocumented Immigrants, Legal ... https://www.ojp.gov/library/publications/comparing-crime-rates-between-undocumented-immigrants-legal-immigrants-and

[3] [PDF] The Myth of Immigrant Criminality and the Paradox of Assimilation https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/sites/default/files/research/Imm Criminality (IPC).pdf

[4] New Research on Illegal Immigration and Crime | Cato at Liberty Blog https://www.cato.org/blog/new-research-illegal-immigration-crime-0

[5] Debunking the Myth of the 'Migrant Crime Wave' | Brennan Center ... https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/debunking-myth-migrant-crime-wave

[6] Comparing crime rates between undocumented immigrants, legal ... https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.2014704117

[7] Immigrants less likely to commit crimes than U.S.-born - NPR https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find

[8] Comparing crime rates between undocumented immigrants, legal ... https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2014704117

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

I think that Trump has a very different public persona than what he is like, let us say, internally. He will virtually never admit in public that he was wrong about something or has done a poor job in a particular situation - but in private he can be much more self-reflective (see his recent interview with Lex Fridman: he is almost unrecognizable there, even quite likable). People who have done business with him say that he listens carefully to what they say and learns from his mistakes. For example, he clearly approaches this election differently than the 2016 election when it was all about sowing chaos and thriving in it: he offers much more targeted and reasonable criticisms of his opponents.

The show business has done a number on him: unfortunately, one of the main lessons he has learned is that the best way to achieve one's goal is to manipulate the hell out of everyone. Honesty is scarier for him than anything: he feels like the moment he eases off the gas pedal and lets an honest thought slip, his enemies will descend on him like vultures and devour him in a flash. Even when honesty would only help him, he prefers to play a character instead...

just_sayin

@JulesKorngold
Sigh. 

Jules, if you keep trying to mislead people, you will be punished with your own show on MSNBC, and then no one will ever know what happened to you.

1) As I keep pointing out, unlawful entrants routinely COMMIT FELONIES - SS theft, impersonating another person, fraud, perjury, and forgery.  These crimes are often not prosecuted.  That doesn't mean they weren't committed.  If an unlawful entrant is working at all in the US for any form of payment or barter, they are committing a felony.  If they filled out an e-Verify form and used fake green card or fake SS credentials, they committed another felony on top of that.  If they rented an apartment, and used a fake SS card, fake green card, or an address that is not their legal foreign address, they committed perjury.  If they opened a bank account or bought a car using false identification they committed crimes like forgery, perjury, and fraud.  

If liberal prosecutors don't prosecute certain felonies because the ones who committed them are illegal immigrants, and then claim illegal immigrants commit less crimes, that's just pure leftism for you.

Even leftists admit that about 75% of adult unlawful entrants have obtained an illegal green card or SS number.  In my county you can buy them for $150 bucks outside of the 7-11, as long as you don't look like an undercover ICE agent.  You would have to ignore all the felonies COMMITTED to say that illegal immigrants commit less crimes.

2)  The 'studies' you point to are critically flawed.  Guess who identifies who is an illegal immigrant for the census?  The illegal immigrant self identifies.  Same goes for prison studies.  The individual must self identify.  If they say they aren't an unlawful entrant, then that is what the study finds.  See the problem?  

3) You are missing the obvious.  Any felony committed by an unlawful entrant would not have been committed in this country, if that individual was not in this country.  Every rape, murder, sexual assault, and theft committed by someone who entered this country illegally would not have happened if they were not here.  

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Lol

Yes, obviously illegal immigrants commit document crimes.  That's why they're illegal.

More importantly, they DON'T commit violent or property crimes as much as American citizens.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@JulesKorngold ; Prove it. I policed illegal aliens for 31-years...prove they're not violent and deadly?

jack

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

I believe Harris was given the questions before the debate for prep and I believe she was wired to her debate team while on stage...

Hello Rickey:

It's true..  Who could have imagined they would ask questions about the border, or abortion, or about Jan 6???

Truly, WHO?????

Bwa ha ha ha ha ha.

excon

jack

Joeseph said:

Trump v Harris debate , what did we learn?

Hello J:

We learned that Trump can be rolled, and very easily.  Who wants that????

excon

MichaelElpers

@jack

Yeah everyone could have guessed they would mention those and ask the questions as negatives toward Trump.

Just like we also could have guessed
1. On abortion they wouldnt have questioned harris on supporting it until birth.
2. On the economy they wouldnt question her about her extreme policies price gouging or taxing unrealized gains. They wouldnt ask her about super high inflation under their admin.
3. They wouldnt ask her about gaslighting and lying to us about joe bidens health.
4. They wouldnt ask her why border crossings are so high under their administration compared to trumps.
5. When they asked trump about his tweet on race, they didnt also ask harris about claiming to be indian sometimes and black others. Or about her changing accents at rallys.
6. They ask Trump how he would end the war and whether he supports Ukraine but they wouldnt ask Harris why they havent been able to end it or what she believes they could have done better to stop the wars from happening in the first place. Trump had no wars but they are still going to make him out to be the bad guy on this issue.

The only question they asked harris that would be deemed negative towards her was about her flip flopping. She dodged the question and they didnt ask any clarifying questions. Of course they did that and "fact checked" trump the entire night.

We all guessed it.

just_sayin

@JulesKorngold

Yes, obviously illegal immigrants commit document crimes.

I think the term you really were looking for is 'felonies'.  These document crimes are 'felonies'. If you or I committed SS identify theft, fraud, forgery or perjury we would be prosecuted for it as a felony charge.  Once again, some people want one kind of standard of prosecution for citizens and another for non-citizens.  

Its very easy to claim that unlawful entrants commit less crimes when you ignore the felonies they commit.  just sayin

Hitcounter

if we are being realistic the Americans need to ditch both parties entirety and begin again, the republic has already fallen in to stupidity, Russia and China are looking at it salivating over the prospect of who gets what part of the globe when America inevitably cannibalises itself without much of a fight.

Its all well and good having a big impressive army but you need fuel to move it and fuel costs money, America ran out of money in 2008 the dollar has been worthless ever since.

It is in practical terms no more valuable that a bag of magic beans.     

jack

MichaelElpers said:

Of course they did that and "fact checked" trump the entire night.

Hello M:

They fact checked him 3 times..  Once about Jan 6, once about dogs for lunch, and once about murdering baby's.

Du*de.

By the way..  If you believe that libs MURDER new born baby's, cause why not, you need to STEP AWAY FROM THE FOX NEWS..  It's rotting your brain..

https://wisconsinexaminer.com/2024/09/11/three-to-one-republicans-protest-presidential-debate-fact-checking-unfair-to-trump/

excon

Hitcounter

@jack those calling them selves liberals literally had a mobile abortion unit as part of their rally cavalcade how is this not "murder cause why not"? 

Also their fact checks where not in fact facts! each fact check they did produced another lie.  

RickeyHoltsclaw

@jack ; It is true that Harris is a radical Marxist who will not elaborate on policy because she's an atheistic enemy of our Constitutional Republic which aligns well with the moral, mental, misfits you represent.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Lol

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@JulesKorngold ; Prove it. I policed illegal aliens for 31-years...prove they're not violent and deadly?

Prove you were an honorable cop.

And while you're at it, prove God and Satan exist.  We don't care what your fantasy book says. 

Hitcounter

@JulesKorngold all illegal aliens are not violent some are certainly but not all some people can only hold exclusive "is or isn't" views forgetting the mix in-between, the Irish for example are one of Americas largest illegal migrant groups yet they are not called rapists, criminals and gangsters, ironically Ireland seems to be turning its back on migrants in spite of the fact that most of those who say they are Irish actually live outside of Irish territory.

I think the world is a mess because somewhere along the line we decided to take the words of the minority more seriously than the majority and in so doing we have inverted the democratic process. 
   

jack

Hitcounter said:

@jack those calling them selves liberals literally had a mobile abortion unit as part of their rally cavalcade how is this not "murder cause why not"?

Hello H:

If you think abortion at any time is "murder, cause why not", then you're really not gonna like a mobile abortion van no matter where it's parked..  Oh, that's right.  You don't!

Du*de

excon

MichaelElpers

@jack

Well you should look no further than Tim Walz on abortion in Minnesota.
"Born Alive Infants Protection Act Report"  where it reports 5 born alive infants after abortion.
In two of those cases the only comfprt measures were provided.  They didnt provide care to try and keep the baby alive. Tim Walz changed the bill so they no longer had to report this or provide care to keep the baby alive.

Of course they didnt fact check Kamala when she talked about bloodbaths or fine people on both sides even though they know thats a lie.

MayCaesar

Hitcounter said:

if we are being realistic the Americans need to ditch both parties entirety and begin again, the republic has already fallen in to stupidity, Russia and China are looking at it salivating over the prospect of who gets what part of the globe when America inevitably cannibalises itself without much of a fight.

Its all well and good having a big impressive army but you need fuel to move it and fuel costs money, America ran out of money in 2008 the dollar has been worthless ever since.

It is in practical terms no more valuable that a bag of magic beans.     

Russia and China are in a far worse shape than the US has ever been. Russia is about to collapse itself as the country's management has gotten completely detached from reality and has started losing land to someone they initially planned to annex - and China seems to have extracted everything it could from Xiaoping's reforms and temporary population boom and has become stagnant, led by rapidly aging and going insane group of party members (reminds us of something - late Soviet Union, anyone?).

The US is pretty much the only country in the world in which revolutionary technologies are developed. All the recent AI advances, for instance, that define the modern world, happened here. There are no serious competitors to companies like Google or SpaceX anywhere in the world outside of the US. To say that it is "no more valuable than a bag of magic beans" is to completely ignore this reality and to assume that the US politicians are somehow tricking the entire world into adoring the US culture and using its currency - pretty ridiculous theory.

Hitcounter

@MayCaesar "Russia and China are in a far worse shape than the US has ever been"

this is deranged, your head is so far in the sand you it's about to turtle neck in the Sahara.

Russia, China and the BRICS are building up such a momentum the dollar is backsliding in to nothingness, (you will not this in the prices of goods in your grocery stores. Unless the US has control of the worlds reserve currency it has no soft power anymore, nothing to keep its prices cheap and its enemy's expensive making it more reliant on hard power as seen in the drastic maundering the west is currently engaged in.

The US is still using the Nixon playbook from the cold war meanwhile the former communists in the east have moved to a semi capitalist form of communism which has seen the rise of China, and the continued economic expansion of Russia, while maintaining complete population control far beyond what the west is capable of, the west is having to release prisoners on to the streets as its collapse generates crimewaves beyond the scope of prison places or even judges to prosecute, sanctions are no longer having an effect but war is.

War is bringing us all to the brink. if Russia doesn't get the us government the US people will either way the fall of the US is imminent, if I where in the US I wouldn't be expecting to vote in this election cycle because the US isn't going to make it to the election.

2 weeks away from government shutdown this time their is no fuel left in the tank to restart it.     

MayCaesar

@Hitcounter

I am originally from Russia, mate, still holding its citizenship and having friends and relatives there... The Russian economy is a joke. Virtually all Western companies have abandoned it, the Ruble nearly halved in value in just the past two years, and virtually all students from prestigious universities leave the country as soon as they graduate.

China is doing better, but it is stagnating. The GDP per capita in China is 1/6th that of the US. Is that the scary modern economy that is supposed to snatch the steering wheel away from us?

I have no idea where you are getting your information. Infowars, perhaps?

jack

MichaelElpers said:

@jack

Well you should look no further than Tim Walz on abortion in Minnesota.
"Born Alive Infants Protection Act Report"  where it reports 5 born alive infants after abortion.
In two of those cases the only comfprt measures were provided.

Hello M:

I did.  You should look no further than what congress said: 

H.R.26 - Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act.

It REFUTES what you said, above.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/26/text

excon

just_sayin

jack said:

MichaelElpers said:

@jack

Well you should look no further than Tim Walz on abortion in Minnesota.
"Born Alive Infants Protection Act Report"  where it reports 5 born alive infants after abortion.
In two of those cases the only comfprt measures were provided.

Hello M:

I did.  You should look no further than what congress said: 

H.R.26 - Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act.

It REFUTES what you said, above.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/26/text

excon

You get that most post birth deaths due to botched abortions are not reported.  Kermit Gosnell did not report any of the dozen or so he is in jail for.  From the Lozier Institute:

Questions and Answers on Born-Alive Abortion Survivors

Print / Download

Originally published on April 12, 2021 and has been updated on January 27, 2023.

To view this fact sheet as a PDF, see: Fact Sheet: Questions and Answers on Born-Alive Abortion Survivors

Do Late-Term Abortions Really Happen in the U.S.?

Yes. The definition of a late-term abortion is imprecise – and shifting. The gestational age at which an unborn child can survive outside the womb, with medical support, is decreasing, with instances of survival occurring at 22 weeks gestation or slightly earlier. While most states report a gestational age range at which abortions are performed, several jurisdictions that are hospitable to late-term abortions do not collect or publish such data nor do they transmit it to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Nonetheless, reports by the CDC suggest that roughly 1% of all U.S. abortions are carried out at or after 21 weeks of gestation – as many as 10,000 late-term abortions per year.

Although the Supreme Court’s decision in Dobbs v. Jackson has given states the ability to set limits on abortion, and many states have enacted protections early in pregnancy, late-term abortions are perfectly legal in much of the United States. Many state abortion laws adhere to the terms of Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton, which require a “health exception” all the way to birth. This exception, spelled out in the Doe v. Bolton ruling, defines “health” as including mental health, financial concerns, and familial circumstances – in short, abortion on demand. In more than 20 states current law either includes such a wide-open health exception or mentions no limit whatsoever. On January 22, 2019, New York State, which previously had a 24-week limit in effect, lifted that limit and affirmed what amounts to elective abortion until birth. A 2014 study by the Charlotte Lozier Institute found that the United States is one of just seven nations in the world – including North Korea and the People’s Republic of China – to allow elective abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy. A 2017 Fact Check by The Washington Post rated this finding “true.”

Aren’t Late-Term Abortions Only Performed When the Baby Can’t Survive Anyway?

Relatively few late-term abortions are performed on babies who have fatal birth defects. Recent research on women seeking abortions in the third trimester shows that many women undergoing late-term abortion are doing so for the same reasons as women who get abortions earlier in pregnancy. Similarly, another study published in 2013 found that women undergoing late-term abortions offered the same reasons as their counterparts who were seeking earlier abortions. Although the study did not include women undergoing abortions due to fetal anomaly or risk to their own lives, a significant limitation, one of the study’s authors is quoted as stating “that abortions for fetal anomaly ‘make up a small minority of later abortion.’” Additionally, research published by a prolific late-term abortion provider shows that abortions performed due to an abnormality in the baby made up a minority of all late-term abortions performed at his practice. Many late-term abortions are performed on healthy babies who could survive outside the womb with proper care.

Are Abortion Survivors a Myth Made Up by Pro-Life Politicians?

Frequently, the unborn baby is killed at the start of a late-term abortion procedure, primarily through the administration of a lethal injection into the amniotic sac or baby’s head or heart or severing the umbilical cord so that the unborn child will bleed to death. However, 69% of late-term abortion providers report that they do not induce fetal demise before beginning the abortion, and not all methods are equally effective. The survival of a baby intended for abortion creates a host of potential legal and medical problems for the abortion practitioner. A watershed article that appeared in the Philadelphia Inquirer in 1981 referred to the survival of a baby after abortion as the “dreaded complication.”

The Inquirer article quoted Dr. Willard Cates, then-director of abortion surveillance at the CDC, as estimating “that 400 to 500 abortion live births” occurred every year in the United States. These numbers “are little known,” the article stated, “because organized medicine, from fear of public clamor and legal action, treats them more as an embarrassment to be hushed up than a problem to be solved.” The numbers were also likely low. Cates added, “It’s like turning yourself in to the IRS for an audit. What is there to gain? The tendency is not to report because there are only negative incentives.”

In the years since Dr. Cates’ admission, more recent testimony to the accidental birth of babies during abortions has come to light, acknowledged by abortion providers, alluded to by abortion advocates, reported by a handful of states, and sometimes shared by the survivors themselves.

• In an undercover video released in April 2013, a D.C. abortionist admitted he would not intervene to save an abortion survivor. When asked about a baby being born alive during an attempted abortion, he said, “usually, at this point in your pregnancy, it’s too early to survive, usually. It will expire shortly after birth…it’s all in how vigorously you do things to help a fetus survive at this point.” Later he said, “we would not help it [the baby].  Let’s say. We wouldn’t—we wouldn’t—uh, intubate, let’s say.”

• In another undercover video released in March 2017, a former Planned Parenthood medical director said that in order to determine whether to provide medical intervention for these babies, “You need to pay attention to who’s in the room.”

• A Planned Parenthood lobbyist in 2013 opposed the Infants Born Alive Act in Florida, saying, “We believe that, you know, any decision that’s made should be left up to the woman, her family, and the physician.” Abortion advocates leapt to the lobbyist’s defense, targeting the Infants Born Alive Act’s “fundamentally flawed assumption that this type of situation is a real risk” and asserting that born-alive infants were “incredibly unlikely.” However, since 2013 when the Act was signed into law, 42 babies have been born alive during abortions in Florida.

• In a 2019 interview with WTOP in Washington, D.C., in which he endorsed a permissive late-term abortion bill, Virginia Governor Ralph Northam dismissed concerns about abortions performed while a woman is giving birth, explaining, “The infant would be delivered; the infant would be kept comfortable; the infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desire, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.”

• Abortion survivor Melissa Ohden testified to the House Judiciary Committee in 2015, “You wouldn’t know it by looking at me today, but in August of 1977, I survived a failed saline infusion abortion…. I know where children like me were left to die at St. Luke’s Hospital—a utility closet. In 2014, I met a nurse who assisted in a saline infusion abortion there in 1976, and delivered a living baby boy. After he was delivered alive, she followed her superior’s orders and placed him in the utility closet in a bucket of formaldehyde to be picked up later as medical waste after he died there, alone.”

• Gianna Jessen, another adult survivor of abortion, also testified to the House Judiciary Committee in 2015, stating, “I was delivered alive in an abortion clinic in Los Angeles on April the 6th, 1977. My medical records state: ‘Born alive during saline abortion’ at 6 am. Thankfully, the abortionist was not at work yet. Had he been there, he would have ended my life with strangulation, suffocation, or leaving me there to die.”

• Many young survivors have grown up and chosen to go public with their stories. The testimonies of individuals who were born alive during abortions are featured on https://abortionsurvivors.org/. A Fox News interview with Ohden and two other abortion survivors, one of whom testifies he lost an arm in the process, aired on February 11, 2019.

• Late-term abortionist Kermit Gosnell flouted Pennsylvania law for years before suspicion of the illegal sale of drugs caused the FBI and the Drug Enforcement Administration to raid his “House of Horrors” in 2010. Most disturbing among what they found was evidence of the intentional killing of babies who had survived Gosnell’s abortion procedures. These “snippings,” as he called them, involved using a scissors to sever the spine of babies who survived his brutal abortions.

• In 2005, a mother delivered her 23-week-old baby in the toilet at EPOC Clinic in Orlando, Florida, and was shocked to see him move. Abortion staff not only refused to help but turned away paramedics, whom her friend had notified by calling 911. Angele could do no more than helplessly sit on the floor rocking and singing to her baby for 11 minutes until he died.

• In 2006, Sycloria Williams delivered her 23-week-old baby on a recliner at A Gyn Diagnostic Center in Hialeah, Florida. When she began breathing and moving, abortion clinic owner Belkis Gonzalez cut the umbilical cord and zipped her into a biohazard bag, still alive.

• In 2013, Jill Stanek testified before the House Judiciary Committee about her experience as a registered nurse in the labor and delivery department at Christ Hospital in Oak Lawn, Illinois, where she discovered babies being aborted alive and shelved to die in the department’s soiled utility closet. She said, “I was traumatized and changed forever by my experience of holding a little abortion survivor for 45 minutes until he died, a 21/22-week-old baby who had been aborted because he had Down syndrome.”

MichaelElpers

@jack

Take a look at what just sayin responded. 

This bill only passed the house so it isnt in law.  Also guess what, most democrats voted against it.  So what does that say?

Delilah6120

@Joeseph @just_sayin

@just_sayin I'm not sure where you get your always large and blue highlighted "facts". It is proven that ILLEGAL immigrants commit less crime than Americns.

https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/illegal-immigrant-murderers-texas-2013-2022

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

There is so much hogwash in your post, it's hard to even debate it.

Delilah6120

@Joeseph

I would say hearing a presidential candidate push a sick, , racist meme like The Haitians are eating your pets clearly is disqualifying. And ya'll are just as loyal as ever to Captain Chaos and once again excusing him for creating hate. You know, it almost makes one wonder - are THEY as dysfunctional as he is?

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

Again, lots of hogwash here May. You okay with a potential president sicking people on Haitians? Are you okay with a potential president saying babies are executed after birth? hahahahahahahahahahaha 

Delilah6120

@just_sayin @Joeseph

Kamala wiped the floor with his fat, fraudulent a$$

Delilah6120

@MichaelElpers

Yeah, after 10 minutes of watching that I had had enough. 

Yeah everyone could have guessed they would mention those and ask the questions as negatives toward Trump.

Just like we also could have guessed
1. On abortion they wouldnt have questioned harris on supporting it until birth.

93% of abortions are done within the first trimester, 6% in the 2nd semester and 1% in the third trimester. Post proof of otherwise.

2. On the economy they wouldnt question her about her extreme policies price gouging or taxing unrealized gains. They wouldnt ask her about super high inflation under their admin.

Does Kamala have extreme policies about price gouging? She has been a champion for the middle class and the Biden Administration IS implementing changes to go after Corporate price gouging. Taxing realized gains is something never done before but this is to HELP the middle class and to ensure that the wealthiest Americans pay a fairer share of taxes. The wealthiest Americans avoid significant tax liability because they hold onto appreciated assets without selling them.  Now this is in dispute, but my point is - she is a candidate for the middle class and for the lower class working toward middle class status. Do you still believe that trickle down economics works? 

3. They wouldnt ask her about gaslighting and lying to us about joe bidens health.

That is just plain silly. Gaslighting and lying about Biden's health. The new republican party sure does their share of gaslighting and lying and you pick THIS to complain about?

4. They wouldnt ask her why border crossings are so high under their administration compared to trumps.

There are numerous reasons why border crossings increased. Economic instability, violence, natural disasters, poverty, Covid aftermath, getting rid of the Remain in Mexico policy that trump implemented. I do think that Biden did not take the crisis as seriously as he should have and was slow in response. But they are on track now. And remember, they tried to pass a new immigration bill that republicans nixed because their King told them to abstain. Why? Because Trump wanted the credit. Do you really believe Trump cares about immigrants? No. He just picked the weakest among humanity to pick on and spread the hate to divide the country and make it easier to conquer.

5. When they asked trump about his tweet on race, they didnt also ask harris about claiming to be indian sometimes and black others. Or about her changing accents at rallys.

Can you post proof that Harris switched from Indian to Black and back again for political gain?

6. They ask Trump how he would end the war and whether he supports Ukraine but they wouldnt ask Harris why they havent been able to end it or what she believes they could have done better to stop the wars from happening in the first place. Trump had no wars but they are still going to make him out to be the bad guy on this issue.

Did he answer that he supports Ukraine over Russia? NO. Why? Because he's a wannabe dictator and he adores Putin. Can''t you see this yet Michael? Can't you see that Trump sides with dictators because he wants to be one? No? Why did he mention Orban as an admirer of his? Orban? Orban is a right wing nationalist with authoritarian tendencies and has been prime minister of Hungary for 15 years. Is this what you want? A man who reveres authoritarianism? A man who will ensure he and his family stay in power?

The only question they asked harris that would be deemed negative towards her was about her flip flopping. She dodged the question and they didnt ask any clarifying questions. Of course they did that and "fact checked" trump the entire night.

They fact checked both Harris and Trump. It's just that you don't like the outcome - Trump lies more so they revealed his lies more. That's how it works. Do you - or do you not believe that Trump lies extraordinarily?

We all guessed it.

What did we guess? Millions guessed that Harris would wipe the floor with Trump's fat, diapered bu%%.  And SHE DID. And by the way, are you AOK with a potential president posting hateful lies and memes about Haitian Americans eating the pets of Americans? Are you AOK with him posting "I hate Taylor Swift"? I would love to hear your answer on this please.

MichaelElpers

@Delilah6120

1. And there are neqrly 1 million abortions per year. So 1% is still neaely 10000 abortions in the stage where the fetus is viable.

2. Yes her policies of price gouging are extreme which is why its mostly been kept quiet. Articificially governing consumer supply and demand nearly always is a negative. Taxing unrealized gains would destroy thr stock msrket and the middle class. Once people have to start paying taxes on assets they havent sold, they will be forced to sell, destroying the stock market.  The only ones able to keep assets or pick up thr pieces of the now clearanced market would be the wealthy.

3. So are you saying Bidens health is perfectly fine still or are you saying they were truthful about it the entire time?

4. They voted against the bill because of all the additions it had on it.  Not sure if you know this but often bills are named things such as the border security bill but are 500 pages long and have tons of other items not related to the border.

5. You can easily find it. Look up the videos on youtube. She panders to whichever race she feels will gain her the most votes.

6. No they actually didnt fact check Harris a single time during the debate. Unless you like to show that.
Trump refused to say whether he wanted Ukraine to win thr war because he understood that would limit diplomatic negotiations. He wants the war to end.

Reports were unverified but there were reports of people losing there pets, people killimg ducks/geese in park.  I wish he wouldnt have stated something as fact that is unverified.

I dont care if he hates taylor swift.

Delilah6120

@MichaelElpers

You have to understand Michael that Non trump supporters simply cannot believe what they hear and see coming from this unfit con man. We believe that most trump supporters are simply in a cult as they simple excuse and overlook his immoral behavior and protect him. That's a cult. I would like you to please explain why it is AOK with a potential president to say that Haitians are eating the dogs, they're eating the cats, they're eating the pets of the people that live in Springfield - which has caused schools to shut down and  lives being threatened. Please explain this to me Michael.

MayCaesar

@Delilah6120

I see it quite ironic that you accuse other people of cultism in the sentence you start with "We believe" rather than "I believe". Who is "we"? You mentioned "Non trump supporters"... well, I happen to not be a Trump supporter, yet I do not believe that most Trump supporters are "simply in a cult". Projecting your personal views onto other people, are we not?

I used to live in one of the reddest areas in the US, and I did not feel like I was in a cult. Believe it or not, most Trump voters do not think about politics that much. They just go about their business, and once every 4 years they look at what is on offer and see complete neglect by one of the two candidates - the Democratic one. How about you go there and convince them that they should care more about egalitarian admissions in Harvard than getting their farmer's equipment at a stable price?

Factfinder

Delilah6120 said:

@MichaelElpers

You have to understand Michael that Non trump supporters simply cannot believe what they hear and see coming from this unfit con man. We believe that most trump supporters are simply in a cult as they simple excuse and overlook his immoral behavior and protect him. That's a cult. I would like you to please explain why it is AOK with a potential president to say that Haitians are eating the dogs, they're eating the cats, they're eating the pets of the people that live in Springfield - which has caused schools to shut down and  lives being threatened. Please explain this to me Michael.

Well If that's the definition of "cult"  Then what would you call the cover up of Biden's condition which Harris was privy to and in on, and the vulnerable state it puts us in?

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

I see it quite ironic that you accuse other people of cultism in the sentence you start with "We believe" rather than "I believe". Who is "we"? You mentioned "Non trump supporters"... well, I happen to not be a Trump supporter, yet I do not believe that most Trump supporters are "simply in a cult". Projecting your personal views onto other people, are we not? 

Firstly, the terms "We believe, I believe and we" is not cultism. It could be interpreted as collectivism or groupism but not cultism. It was a generalization. And nice gaslighting. Secondly, I do not - and have never trusted you May. You seem to talk out of both sides of your mouth. Nevertheless I persist. I do believe you are in fact a Trump supporter. That is my opinion. However, I did generalize and was unclear. Most - meaning his extreme loyal base - those have been by his side for almost a decade. I believe as many others do, that his most extreme loyal base are cult members. Cult members that are easily manipulated and who easily accept and justify actions that are way beyond the boundaries of normal, ethical and moral. They are loyal to their Cult leader to the point of rejecting their own core value systems and beliefs. Surprisingly those that are believed to be cult members are the people I'd be more likely to empathize with for voting for him. Others, those that are racist, misogynist, sexist -  and especially those whose loyalty is money and power are not as easily forgiven or tolerated, by me and in my opinion.

I used to live in one of the reddest areas in the US, and I did not feel like I was in a cult. Believe it or not, most Trump voters do not think about politics that much. They just go about their business, and once every 4 years they look at what is on offer and see complete neglect by one of the two candidates - the Democratic one. How about you go there and convince them that they should care more about egalitarian admissions in Harvard than getting their farmer's equipment at a stable price?

And do you really want to get into a tit for tat on Harris v. Trump? I see no purpose of this other than allowing you to hone your skills.

MichaelElpers

@Delilah6120

See I really do not care whether you think Trump supporters are in a cult or not. There of plenty of folks on both sides that are completely uneducated on their positions exhibiting this type of behavior.  When you ask many Harris supporters what is your favorite thing about her many will respond she a black woman. Likewise you will find pthers that think Trump is a savior. I do not fall into these classes, these were not my candidates of choice.

I do however notice that you quickly turned to grouping me and my arguments into a collective group so you could quickly denegrate any valid points i may have made. This would be more typical of cultish type behavior.

There are video reports including those of minorities reporting they found their pets heads on their property. I obviously cant verify that but I think overall that doesnt mean they are not running into many issues in Springfield that are making people feel unsafe. I dont find this plight humorous.
I also find focusing on this comment mostly a giant distraction from the broader more important issues, which is somewhat telling that people would like to avoid them.

MayCaesar

Delilah6120 said:

@MayCaesar

I see it quite ironic that you accuse other people of cultism in the sentence you start with "We believe" rather than "I believe". Who is "we"? You mentioned "Non trump supporters"... well, I happen to not be a Trump supporter, yet I do not believe that most Trump supporters are "simply in a cult". Projecting your personal views onto other people, are we not? 

Firstly, the terms "We believe, I believe and we" is not cultism. It could be interpreted as collectivism or groupism but not cultism. It was a generalization. And nice gaslighting. Secondly, I do not - and have never trusted you May. You seem to talk out of both sides of your mouth. Nevertheless I persist. I do believe you are in fact a Trump supporter. That is my opinion. However, I did generalize and was unclear. Most - meaning his extreme loyal base - those have been by his side for almost a decade. I believe as many others do, that his most extreme loyal base are cult members. Cult members that are easily manipulated and who easily accept and justify actions that are way beyond the boundaries of normal, ethical and moral. They are loyal to their Cult leader to the point of rejecting their own core value systems and beliefs. Surprisingly those that are believed to be cult members are the people I'd be more likely to empathize with for voting for him. Others, those that are racist, misogynist, sexist -  and especially those whose loyalty is money and power are not as easily forgiven or tolerated, by me and in my opinion.

I used to live in one of the reddest areas in the US, and I did not feel like I was in a cult. Believe it or not, most Trump voters do not think about politics that much. They just go about their business, and once every 4 years they look at what is on offer and see complete neglect by one of the two candidates - the Democratic one. How about you go there and convince them that they should care more about egalitarian admissions in Harvard than getting their farmer's equipment at a stable price?

And do you really want to get into a tit for tat on Harris v. Trump? I see no purpose of this other than allowing you to hone your skills.

Well, given how not a single person you accused of being a Trump supporter here actually is, I suspect that the population you are talking about does not exist.

Delilah6120

@Factfinder

Well If that's the definition of "cult"  Then what would you call the cover up of Biden's condition which Harris was privy to and in on, and the vulnerable state it puts us in?

I do not believe all Trump supporters are in a cult. In my opinion, his core base is about 25%. They were unwittingly manipulated by a con man who stoked unfounded fear, anger and suspicion in them, urging them to trust no one but him, and promising that he is their retribution, he will be their protector, and he alone can fix it. That inflammatory rhetoric can be empowering to those who are rootless and disconnected. I have more understanding for this group. But his other voters [ a) racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic,  or b) money and power is fundamental ] are - in my opinion - more egregious.

 My definition of a cult is a group of followers who, against all evidence and logic, are unconditionally loyal to their cult leader, excuse and justify their cult leader's immoral, unethical and criminal behavior while very sadly ignoring their own convictions and morality. These people are his 25%. Trump exploited these marginalized people for his own benefit. To me, that's despicable and immoral.

Not revealing to the public an uncertainty about the president's ability to run another four years until they were, in fact certain, is far from cult-like behavior.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; We learned that the Media colluded with the Harris campaign and provided them information concerning the questions to be asked and we learned that the Media colluded with the Harris campaign to thwart anything President Trump would respond too through false "fact checking" while not checking the numerous lies and deceit of Harris once. We know that the Media and Harris conspired to convince "low information" voters that Trump is "bad" and progressive idio-cy is good.

Factfinder

@Delilah6120

Not revealing to the public an uncertainty about the president's ability to run another four years until they were, in fact certain, is far from cult-like behavior.

Of course we all know there was more to it than that and it wasn't their call to keep it secrete from us, the people who are their employers. Remember it was the years/months of denial that's suspect here, not a single instance of "not revealing" a concern. Rather it turned out to be glaring evidence removing all 'uncertainty'  Biden should have stepped down from the Presidency, forget running, as he was obviously not fit or of sound mind to run the country. He's still propped up! What would you say about a cabal that conspired to keep that little secret, eh?

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw


You're telling me this why?  I like neither Trump or Harris you clown.......

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; I would prefer you just disappear...you add nothing to this forum but hopelessness.