Should the Death Penalty be Abolished?

just_sayin

Is the Death Penalty a Deterrence to Committing Violent Crimes?

What is the evidence - From Just Facts:

In a 7–2 decision holding that the death penalty is constitutional, the U.S. Supreme Court asserted that deterrence and retribution are the “two principal social purposes” of the death penalty, and that:
We may … assume safely that there are murderers, such as those who act in passion, for whom the threat of death has little or no deterrent effect. But for many others, the death penalty undoubtedly is a significant deterrent.[362] 

Using larger datasets over longer time periods,[380] economic studies in publications such as American Law and Economics Review, Journal of Law and Economics, and Journal of Applied Economics during 2003–2006 concluded that:each death penalty execution deters multiple murders.[381] [382] [383]shorter time periods from death penalty sentencing to execution deter more murders.[384]the death penalty’s deterrent effect is stronger where it is imposed more frequently.[385] [386]in order for the death penalty to deter murders, a state must carry out a minimum number of executions (at least nine during the 19-year period in the study).[387]* In 2012, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed existing research on the death penalty’s effect on homicide rates.[388] It concluded that previous studies are “not informative” about whether or not the death penalty deters homicides because they generally:[389]use observational data—which can only reveal associations—and a randomized experiment studying the death penalty is not possible.[390] [391] [392] [393] [394]may be “contaminated” by others factors that can impact homicide rates, such as the severity of alternate punishments and arrest rates.[395] [396] [397] [398] [399]do not measure criminals’ perceived risk of execution as opposed to the objective risk, and the “general public is very poorly informed” on the subject.[400] [401] [402]

The Wrong Guy Gets Executed All the Time

While someone may be convicted of a crime they did not commit, the last time someone was later exonerated after an execution was in 1939 (from Just Facts):

 As of April 2020, the last person in the U.S. who was executed under the death penalty and later exonerated was put to death in 1939.[251] [252] [253] [254] [255] [256]

The long appeal process provides ample time for correcting mistakes in the judicial process.

Bogan

If a referendum was held tomorrow In Australia on whether the death penalty should be reintroduced, I personally think it would win in a landslide.    This is why our political rulers will not give us this referenda.   So much for democracy.  So much for the idea that in a democracy, "governments rule by the assent of the people they rule".    No wonder people voted for Trump and Brexit.     Western world electorates are waking up to the fact that they are now being ruled by an inbred Tweedledee/Tweedledum mandarin political class, which, although they claim to have diverse policies between respective parties, in fact have a great deal of consensus among themselves as to their values and common interests.    And these new aristocrats have no qualms at all about imposing their minority beliefs on their own electors, who they know would reject them.     

There are many reasons why the death penalty should be reintroduced.   Here are three of ten.     Iwill give the other seven reasons later, so as not to make this post too long.  

 

1.   The first is, that there exists within every society a tiny minority which is responsible for most of the very serious crimes of violence.    These violent and extremely dangerous criminals re-offend and kill, over, and over, and over again.   Until they either die, or our legal system is finally forced to admit that they are unreformable.        The NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics estimates that half of all prisoners released from NSW prisons reoffend within 12 months.     Two thirds within 18 months.  Permanently thinning out the ranks of the worst repeat offenders would do wonders for our ever increasing crime and incarceration rates.

 2.    Many criminals today are committing pre planned crimes of such sadistic brutality on strangers and complete innocents that they have forfeited the right to walk this earth.    Ivan Milat brutally murdered at least seven young men and women, just for fun.    

 3.   The death penalty should be automatic on any person who is convicted of murder, who upon serving their sentence, kills again.    Such people are just too dangerous to allow to live.     An example of such a criminal is mutilation murderer John Leslie Coombes, who was twice jailed for murder, twice paroled, and then killed for a third time.

In 1984 Coombes stabbed and killed Henry Raymond Kells, aged 44, at his home in Chelsea, Victoria. In December 1985 he was sentenced to "life" imprisonment, but this was later reduced to a minimum sentence of 11years.    He escaped from prison but was fortunately, quickly recaptured.    Seven weeks after his release he was arrested for the 1984 murder of Michael Speirani.    Coombes had murdered Speriani 9 months before murdering Kells.     Coombes and an accomplice (Glen Conlon) murdered Speriani by taking him by boat owned by Coombes on a sea fishing trip, then throwing Speriani overboard to drown.    The motive was apparently because Coombes coveted Speriani's car.    Coombes killed Speriani by running down the terrified man with his motor boat and letting the boats propeller mutilate Speriani's body. Coombs wanted the boats propeller to cut him to pieces and the "fish would finish the job."      In 1998 Coombes received a 10-year minimum sentence and was paroled nine years later in 2007.

After being sentenced to two "life" sentences and spending a total of 20 years in prison for two separate murders, he struck again.     In 2009 Coombes strangled childcare worker Rachael Betts in Victoria and dismembered her body in a bathtub

Barnardot

@just_sayin @Bogan While someone may be convicted of a crime they did not commit, the last time someone was later exonerated after an execution was in 1939 (from Just Facts):

With every process you will get mistakes, that's just the way it goes.

We have amazing high tech medical surgery that has helped millions of people who would have suffered or died. But should we stop surgery just because someone died on the operating table? 

It happens with the death penalty and the system is not perfect. It never can be when we have to make a decision over someone's guilt. 

I'll say this for nothing though. The reasons why we should have the death penalty is 1, it can be a deterrent in many cases. 

And b, which is the most successful reason it is used as a bargaining tool. Many murderers will not reveal the location of the body but they will if the death penalty is taken off the table. And 3, Many murderers will plead guilty if they know they will only go into the slammer instead. In both these cases it it a tremendous relief for the families of the victim.

But we should get over the queasy moralistic crap of "Hay we shouldn't kill others because it's wrong and like um derrr like it is wrong". What a load of bovine fertilizer. We are humans and we kill and always have done so, and all these la dee da do goody woody wimps should just get over it.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Just saying just_sayin

@just_sayin


Globally,

In terms of social governance.

A state of imperfect and selective morality is where we are already at.

And by the time you read this, millions of lives will have been whimsically extinguished.

jack

AnonymousArguer said:

Do you think the death penalty should be abolished? Why or why not?

Hello A:

Of course..  Seems to me the worst way to teach people NOT to kill, is to kill people..

But, that's just me.

excon

RickeyHoltsclaw

The Death Penalty should be enforced and performed in the public square for deterrence purposes. @Jack is a mindless liberal buffoon.

jack

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Jack is a mindless liberal buffoon.

Hello Mr Cut and Paste:

Awwww.  I thought we was buds.  No, huh?

excon

RickeyHoltsclaw

@jack ; Yea right.

Bogan

 In 1968, Peter Dupas  became a rapist at 15 years of age, and he reoffended five years later.   He was repeatedly arrested and sentenced to lenient terms for numerous sexual offences, sexual assaults, and rapes.   These sexual attacks were becoming increasingly more violent as time went on, the tell tale signature of an emerging serial killer.   Whenever Dupas was released, he immediately reoffended.    In 1999, Dupas raped and murdered 28 year old Nicole Patterson, and 40 year old Margaret Maher, and was sentenced to "life" in jail.     While in jail, the Victorian Police found out that he had  committed another murder, that of 25 year old Mersina Halvegis, and was the prime suspect in three more unsolved murders.        Let's hope he does not escape and that this time" life" means exactly what the English language defines it to mean

 -Erich Turner was awarded the dubious honour of being the last person sentenced to death in NSW.    In 1948, he strangled to death his 15 year old girlfriend, Claire Sullivan,  in her family home.   He then murdered her sleeping father with an axe.     His death penalty was commuted to "life imprisonment", which every member of the public is resigned to know almost never means "life."     Released in 1970, he stabbed to death 60 year old Harriet Field in her own home, as well as Harriet's 11 year old grandson, John Pitz, who heroically tried to defend his grandmother. 

 -Daniel Miles was convicted of the murder of Yolande Michael after escaping from a NSW prison where he was serving time for the murder of 16 year old Donna Newland.

-In the mid sixties, Leonard Keith Lawson was released from prison after abducting and murdering a 15 year old girl. While on parole he raped and murdered 15 year old Mary Jane Bower at Collaroy, in Sydney. With the police looking for him, he entered SCEGGS girls school in Bowral, and attempted to abduct a schoolgirl. In the struggle with a heroic teacher, he fired a sawn off rifle several times, wounding the female teacher and killing 15 year old Wendy Luscombe.

-When Gordon Barry Hadlow was released from a Queensland prison after 22 years, for the rape and murder of a six year old girl, (Samantha Dorothy Bacon) he then abducted, raped, and murdered a 9 year old girl, Sharon Margaret Hamilton.

 -Leigh Robinson was sentenced to death for the stabbing murder of 17 year old shop assistant Valerie Dunn on June 8, 1968, in Melbourne.    His sentence was commuted to 30 years jail after a mercy plea was accepted by the Victorian State government of the day.     Released after 15 years, he continued his war on our society with convictions for rape, the sexual assault of two underage girls, breaking and entering, and theft.    In 2008, Robinson murdered Tracey Greenbury, 32, after having an argument with her, then chasing the terrified woman down a street armed with a shotgun before literally blowing her head off in front of an elderly female neighbour.

 Had these six rapist murderers of women and children been executed, several innocent young women and children would still be alive today. The attitude of the anti death penalty brigade is curious. The lives of the worst kinds of sadistic, psychopathic killers are sacrosanct. Only the lives of innocent women and children are expendable. Capital punishment definitely stops repeat offenders.

 -My favourite candidate for execution is that sub human (William Mitchell) in Greenough, Western Australia who entered a family home (Greenough Family Massacre) very early one morning after axing to death a 15 year old boy (Daniel McKenzie) (who had walked outside to greet whoever it was who had entered the family driveway.)         He then entered the boy’s mothers bedroom (31 year old Karen McKenzie) and axed the sleeping mother to death in her bed.  He then raped her dead body.    He then entered the room of a 7 year old girl (Amara McKenzie),and axed her to death. (Other details of her death were suppressed by the coroner.)   He then entered the room of a 5 year old girl, (Katrina McKenzie) and axed her to death also.     (Other details about her death were suppressed by the coroner.)  He then went off to work like nothing had ever happened.     You want this bastard to escape from prison and do it again to your wife and kids?   Because some murderers have escaped from prison to kill again, and some have even escaped from prison for the sole purpose that there was somebody outside of prison that they wanted to kill.

 -John Ernest Cribb.   Cribb was on parole for armed robbery when he broke into the Connell family home in Baulkham Hills in north-west Sydney and kidnapped Valda Connell, 39, and two of her six children, Sally, 10, and Damien, 4, in August 1978.   After raping Valda he stabbed her to death, then stabbed to death Sally and Damien.   Their bodies were found in a car boot near Swansea.     Cribb then escaped with well-known criminal William John Munday from the Morisset Hospital for the criminally insane in April 1979, where he was awaiting trial for the murders.    They became the most wanted men in the state.    The pair then committed 31 offences between them including the abduction and rapes of underage schoolgirls, assaults and robberies in Newcastle and Sydney, before they were caught a couple of weeks later.

jack

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@jack ; Yea right.

Hello Rickey:

Look, I  got it..  It's the American way.  The BEST way to teach a child NOT to hit, is to hit 'em.  

Du*de.  Makes absolutely NO sense to me.   And, we wonder why we have mass shootings going on all the time..

excon

just_sayin

jack said:

AnonymousArguer said:

Do you think the death penalty should be abolished? Why or why not?

Hello A:

Of course..  Seems to me the worst way to teach people NOT to kill, is to kill people..

But, that's just me.

excon

Every killer who is killed can't ever kill anyone else.  just sayin

@Jack, I just got to observe the hypocrisy of so many who are anti-death penalty.  They will say "don't kill that guy who molested all those kids and then tortured them to death", but they will say of the innocent unborn baby who has harmed no one "kill it, kill it dead!!!!"

We shouldn't kill the innocent, @Jack, we should protect and defend them instead.  Maybe we can make a new pro-abortion bumper sticker "Baby killers for not killing serial murdering child rapists.'  Bet if you put it on the abortion mobile that Democrats drive around at their conventions, it would be a real hit.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Jack

jack

just_sayin said:

Every killer who is killed can't ever kill anyone else.  just sayin

Hello just_:

We can use the justice system as a deterrent or we can use it for vengeance.   They're not the same - not even close.  I'd pick one.  You'd probably pick the other.  Oh, I get it..  Vengeance FEELS good.  But, it does NOTHING to protect the public.

excon

Barnardot

@jack ;The BEST way to teach a child NOT to hit, is to hit 'em.  

That;s a pretty uneducated analogy. Nobody but a nit is going to say that the best way to teach someone not to kill is by killing him. Like derr.

When you go to many of the slopey countries the first thing you see on posters at the airport is "Hay Joe. You carry drugs, you get death". I bet it deters a shiteload of people from even thinking of doing it.

Bogan

  5.    Serious drug traffickers.  In Australia today, several hundred mostly young people are dying of heroin overdoses each year. Many more are turning into violent and untreatable psychiatric case addicts through barbituate drugs.     If several hundred Australians were being killed every year by a foreign power, this country would be at war. We would do everything possible to kill our enemies and prevent these attacks upon our citizenry. We would blow our enemies to pieces, burn them to death with white phosphorous and napalm, shoot them, and bury them alive. Why do we not selectively use the death penalty upon the criminals who have declared war upon our society?    The most amazing thing about serious criminal behaviour, is that most of it is committed by an almost insignificant part of our population who never stop their war on our society until they are dead.       

As a former reserve soldier, I was given instruction on how to kill the enemies of my people. Many of the enemy soldiers that I was trained to kill, I know would be decent, brave men, who like me were doing their duty. It beggars the mind of former soldiers for society to claim that it is OK to mow down brave enemy soldiers who fight you honourably, in uniform, man to man, and face to face.      You can kill them by the thousands. Even in the tens of thousands.   You can drop bombs on your enemies cities and kill millions of "enemy" people who are mostly women, children, and old people, and give medals to the bomber crews.       But when it comes to terrorists, hired murderers, people who plant bombs in civilian airliners, child abductor rapist murderers, serial killers, mob bosses, drug traffickers of lethal and addictive mass killing drugs, and traitors, the taking of their worthless lives is considered a sin by people who seem to value their opinions of themselves as virtue signalling moral puritans, than consider the welfare of their own people.

 6.   Another reason for the death penalty is that is an effective tool for the fight against international and national organised crime. Hired murderers and their paymasters should be executed as there is no excuse for such behaviour. As for the crime bosses who order the executions, they too must be eradicated for the protection of our community. Failure to do so will see a situation develop in this country where criminal bosses run their criminal organisations from jail, and order the execution of judges, prosecutors, politicians, journalists and witnesses.      This is already happening oversees.    Worldwide, it has been found that it is impossible to prevent mobile phones from entering prisons, and crime bosses and bikie gang leaders in jail in Australia now routinely use mobile phones to order their gangs to murder people, intimidate witnesses, or run their drug empires from their prison cells.    One Chinese company helpfully designs mobile phones to fit into human anus's, and they can be bought cheaply from Ebay.   "Jamming" mobile phones in prisons has been found not to work reliably.   Inmates always find the places within the jails that the jamming does not cover. 

 The murder of witnesses, judges, police officers, prosecutors, politicians and journalists  is already happening in Italy, the USA, and many South American countries, and it is beginning to happen in Australia.    The Calabrian mafia just keeps growing in this country and we can't kill it because we can't kill the vicious men who compose the mafia.        Some Italian market gardeners and shopkeepers are now just slaves to the mafia that our "fair" legal system can not touch.      The only government which ever really made a serious dent in the Mafia's operations was Mussolini's.    Mussolini and his Fascist Party believed in the death penalty, and the Fascists used it frequently on the mafia people who themselves had good reason the believe that the death penalty is an effective way of controlling human behaviour.     Both the Mafia and the Fascists were right. 

 The Mafia was ecstatically happy about the Allied liberation of Italy and the reimposition of a death penalty free justice system.      The wise guys in the Mafia are now almost untouchable in western societies, excepting the USA, which retains the death penalty.    But the Mafia could almost be considered gentlemen compared to the South American narcotrafficantes who are also setting up shop in Australia due to our insane immigration policies.     The narcotrafficantes have the morality of piranhas and should better be described as narco-terrorists.    Narcotrafficantes torture, rape and kill each others wives and kids, and also the wives and kids of anybody else who crosses them.           Narcotrafficantes will be more successful than the Mafia in Australia because they are totally ruthless and our legal and punishment system is not geared to fight effectively against organised gangs of near insane psychopaths.     Narcotrafficantes believe that the threat of death effectively controls human behaviour, and so should we.

just_sayin

jack said:

just_sayin said:

Every killer who is killed can't ever kill anyone else.  just sayin

Hello just_:

We can use the justice system as a deterrent or we can use it for vengeance.   They're not the same - not even close.  I'd pick one.  You'd probably pick the other.  Oh, I get it..  Vengeance FEELS good.  But, it does NOTHING to protect the public.

excon

@Jack, you have made a false value judgement.  You believe the death penalty is vengeance, when it is justice - it is an equal consequence for someone who murdered someone.  And @Jack, killing killers would indeed reduce the number of killers, and make the public safer.  

polytheistwitch

The death penalty does not deter murder. States with no death penalty tend to have smaller murder rates. Basically the only person that the death penalty deters is the person being killed. 

The appeals process makes the death penalty very costly and people often just sit on the states dime in special custody because of their status as a death penalty case. Actually save money to not have the death penalty in the way of appeals and of special housing.

I don't feel personally the state should ever be in the business of killing people outside of war.

The application of the death penalty seems to be completely arbitrary. Constantly used as a tool to gain confessions and it's often applied inconsistently when it comes to things like race and social status.

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;@Jack, you have made a false value judgement.  You believe the death penalty is vengeance, when it is justice.

Well, in a way it is vengeance but so bleeding what?

Every single human being has sought vengeance since time immemorial for better or for worse. 

How about all the families, friends and communities affected by an uncontrollable urge of a demented filthy violent pervert who grabs, rapes and murders a little kid. 

If that bastard gets executed, call it vengeance if you prefer but he gets what he deserves.

Bogan

  7.  Another class of candidates for capitol punishment are those who murder while still in jail.    Between  1992-1994   Goulburn Jail in NSW, Australia had seven murders in 2 years committed by inmates, on other inmates.     The common response from these murderers is that they were in for "life" anyway, so they did not care.      "Watcha gunna do?   Give me life again?"    These murderers have no fear of the consequences, because without a death penalty, there isn't any.   Rescinding TV privileges is hardly a deterrent to murder.      One victim was murdered by another inmate within Goulburn Jail in a contract "hit".   The price was a pack of cigarettes.     Another inmate named "Singh" was murdered in another contract "hit", but the murderer botched the job and murdered the wrong "Singh".   Having a more extreme punishment to hold over the heads of potential jail murderers would probably have saved some inmates lives.    It may even have saved the bashing of one Goulburn warder, who was bashed so badly by inmates using clubs, that part of his brain was left on the ground after he was attended by paramedics. 

 Inmates who commit such crimes are extremely dangerous and almost impossible to control in jail.      They know they are immune from punishment, and they make life hell for the warders who have to somehow control them.   They also make the lives hell for other prisoners whom we as a society are supposed to protect during their confinement.    Let us give back to our warders a real weapon they can use to control these extremely dangerous human predators.    Kill or maim a prison officer or a police officer, and you will pay for your crime with your life.

 8.    Terrorism.     It is ironic that the RAAF can effectively "execute" without trial "Australian" terrorists fighting for ISIS in Iraq using smart bombs, but our legal system is unable to execute "Australian" terrorists attempting to mass murder Australians in our own country.      Take for example people who plant bombs on aircraft.  Here in Australia, one pair of alleged terrorists have been arrested and charged with attempting to put a bomb disguised as a meat grinder onto an Etihad aircraft leaving Mascot airport.   If they are convicted, they will simply swell the ever growing numbers of incarcerated Muslim terrorists costing the public $100,000 p.a. for their upkeep.     Richard Read, the convicted "British" terrorist shoe bomber on a trans Atlantic aircraft, would have happily blown hundreds of men, women and children right out of the sky. It was estimated that most people not killed in the explosion would have fallen through the air for minutes before they impacted with the sea. Read wanted to kill innocents because he wanted to be a Muslim jihadi martyr, and be welcomed by Allah himself at the gates of paradise, along with 72 panting virgins.     

 As for making terrorists “martyrs”, the US is creating so many Islamic “martyrs” at the moment using Predator drone strikes that that Allah is running out of virgins.      Terrorists executed as criminals make poor martyrs, but they make excellent examples to potential terrorists contemplating the idea of becoming terrorists.   Terrorising terrorists by converting live terrorists into dead martyrs sounds like a great idea to me.    And yes, we should bury the executed Muslim terrorists in pig skins.   If we did that, we would instantly see a reaction from the entire Muslim world, who would be outraged at the way we treat their dead heroes.   These jihadi heroes are simply following the clear instructions of their Koran, their Prophet, and their Hadiths, to terrorise infidels into accepting Islam.