What is "right" and "wrong"

just_sayin

"Всё, что говорит @FactFinder, неправильно. А всё, что скажет @Barnardot, будет глупым."

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

"Всё, что говорит @FactFinder, неправильно. А всё, что скажет @Barnardot, будет глупым."

Just_lyin is intelligent.

Bogan

Just_lyin is intelligent.

What happened to you?     Did you emerge from the shallow end of the gene pool?   

maxx

human concepts. humans decide among themselves what is good or right. @HUSHWH1111S

all4actt

@HUSHWH1111S
 
What do you mean that you do not know why right and wrong exists? What is there to understand.

что тут понимать

chto tut ponimat'

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: SHUSH.

@HUSHWH1111S

IP DIT COMMS PERKAT - - - QUAD.

DITTO>


Relevant but variable sequencing of ideas.

maxx

plenty. right and wrong does not exist in the lower animal kingdom; nor in nature. It is not a physical law of the universe either. right and wrong only exists due to the morals and values human developed as they evolved. They are nothing bit concepts; ideas created for human benefit. @all4actt

all4actt

@maxx

I disagree.  Most animals can decifer right from wrong.  It is in most animals instinctual.

In the wild most animals are constantly aware of their surroundings and make judgement calls as to whether a place or situation feels right (safe) or if it feels wrong.  They take constant assessments of their environment and stay when the conditions are right and migrate when those conditions are wrong and no longer suit their needs.

Then you move to pets.  Most pets are quite capable of learning right from wrong from their owners.  Some are better at it than others and the smarter ones like the Grey Wolves I raised can balance their training and still keep an uncanny instintual sense of situational awareness of whether a circumstance or person fits in their right or wrong categories. Their perception is much quicker then most humans b/c they have more senses at their disposal then we do.

Factfinder

all4actt said:

@maxx

I disagree.  Most animals can decifer right from wrong.  It is in most animals instinctual.

In the wild most animals are constantly aware of their surroundings and make judgement calls as to whether a place or situation feels right (safe) or if it feels wrong.  They take constant assessments of their environment and stay when the conditions are right and migrate when those conditions are wrong and no longer suit their needs.

Then you move to pets.  Most pets are quite capable of learning right from wrong from their owners.  Some are better at it than others and the smarter ones like the Grey Wolves I raised can balance their training and still keep an uncanny instintual sense of situational awareness of whether a circumstance or person fits in their right or wrong categories. Their perception is much quicker then most humans b/c they have more senses at their disposal then we do.

More senses or more acute senses? Instincts are not concepts of right and wrong. Pets learn what their human owner tolerates or appreciates as they adapt to living with humans. In none of your examples do you show animals contemplate the morality of action or inaction. 

MayCaesar

Not sure what is with the Cyrillic in the comments. Anyway...

In interaction between human beings various heuristics simplifying it arise. For instance, "trust" is a very valuable heuristic: when you can trust your interaction partner, you can reliably interact in a mutually beneficial way by predicting what benefits you and them and acting it out. Without any degree of trust, this becomes impossible: if you cannot trust your partner, then you can never know what to expect from them. It is complete chaos. Your partner tells you that he will back you up when your rival in the tribe comes to club you to death - then does not do so, and you die.

Those heuristics are not arbitrary: they are a result of millions years of trial and error. How can you know if you can trust someone? You look at their past promises and following through with them or failing to fulfill them - and, assuming general consistency of human behavior, extrapolate their past behavior into the future. Someone lies all the time - you do not trust them. Someone has never been caught lying - you do.

From this example, we can see that lying compromises one's position in the society, while speaking the truth strengthens it. Now, this is not always the case - there are societies in which speaking certain truths is more dangerous than speaking certain lies - but the general value of instilling trust in others should be obvious. People who are trustworthy are seen as better individuals, for interacting with them yields immense benefits to others. Someone who I can trust completely I can outsource solution of my most personal problems, while someone who I cannot trust with anything I cannot even ask for a time and get anything of value in return.

Hence the idea of "right" and "wrong" is born. It is "wrong" to lie because it jeopardizes the heuristic - "trust" - essential to healthy interaction between individuals. The individual who lies, in a sense, betrays other people by failing to meet their basic expectations. An individual who consistently engages in "wrong" behaviors is someone who will be ostracized by the society for interactions with them are seen as dangerous and harmful to everyone, while an individual who consistently engages in "right" behaviors is someone everyone wants to be on good terms with.

However, as with any heuristic, morals can become corrupt. Everyone understands that trust is a very valuable commodity - hence convincing the society that no one can be trusted except for the king/party/dear leader who receive some kind of a divine mandate, or possess some kind of impeccable moral character, makes it very easy to control. The original value of trust is lost and its interpretation is twisted.

All these complications aside, it is very clear that "right" and "wrong" only exist in the context of human interaction. It makes no sense to talk about "right" and "wrong" on Earth 2 billion years ago: there were no intelligent minds capable of developing such heuristics - any heuristics. Does it make sense to talk about "right" and "wrong" in the context of one person stranded on an uninhabited island? No, not in the context of morals. One can say that certain of his actions are right or wrong as in facilitating or jeopardizing his survival - for example, laying on the beach doing nothing and awaiting upcoming death from dehydration is wrong, while doing something to acquire a reliable supply of water is right - but, say, dancing around naked for him is not wrong in the same sense as it would be wrong for me to do on a crowded street, for my dance would directly affect other humans. Who do not want to see crazy naked guys dancing about them.

all4actt

@maxx

As far as morals go in the animal kingdom I will again point to the wolves.  They are well known for being loving to one another in a pack.  When they are in a safe place they will even help care for the weak and injured.  They morn losses of their dead.  Then if it becomes necessary to move they a pack will make the decision to leave those behind that can not make the journey so the healthy wolves in the pack can survive.  I would think that many of their desisions could be argued as moral rather than just survival instincts.

maxx

Instincts for safety and survival are not concepts, nor morals. They have no problem with killing,  stealing, or anything else humans consider wrong.  Pets see us as a pack leader,  and simply obey the humans, mainly from fear. Keft to their own devices,  they would easily and gladly act upon normal desires. If right and wrong exists independently of learning,  then it would have to be some sort of law ingrained into time and space.  Show me morals within the animal kingdom.  Also,  grief is not a moral,. @all4actt

just_sayin

maxx said:

plenty. right and wrong does not exist in the lower animal kingdom; nor in nature. It is not a physical law of the universe either. right and wrong only exists due to the morals and values human developed as they evolved. They are nothing bit concepts; ideas created for human benefit. @all4actt

Maxx, I appreciate your honesty.  Unlike many other atheists on this site you will admit that your moral system is arbitrary and not rooted in any objective moral truth.  Kudos for you!  However, I think your moral system is an inherently deficient one.  It allows situations where Nazi Germany can decide its OK to kill Jewish people for being Jewish, it rationalizes chattel slavery of the past as most people then agreed with it.  Your view of morality is either based on what an individual thinks - which means a serial killer with no concern for raping and killing children, his opinion on right and wrong is no more invalid than your own, or you believe that groups decide what is right and wrong - which means 'might makes right' and the powerful dictate to the weak what is just, even if it is killing the weak.  Thanks for succinctly explaining why atheistic morality is just a crap sandwich covered in vomit.  I couldn't have done better myself.

maxx

i never claimed to be an atheist. also i never claimed that there are those with faulty morals. it is up to the majority of humans to decide what is right or wrong. There will always be those who could care less about morals and values; for to them the end justifies the means. we learn our values from observation and learning from others as we grow; there is also a genetic basis on our decisions. morals are ideas. ideas on how to act and live among others. I could easily point out the many wars christains were involved in, based upon their religious ideas. Christains also once had slavery; it also highly existed in the OT. Morals are objective and subjective to individuals. They are different from individuals to groups and time periods, and are based upon specific ways of living. Are morals rooted in humans? yes' because we have developed them and handed them down since ancient times. beliefs are just as genetic as looks. However, morals are still a human concept; they were "created" for the benefit of living among others. War breaks down these morals; war brings out the lower form of animal with in us; which proves that morals are just ideas that are easily destroyed; and only exist if we follow them.  @just_sayin

all4actt

@maxx

Is not caring and taking care of others a moral contruct.

maxx

instincts are not moral constructs. caring for others especially those of the same "tribe" is built into humans for it is part of the survival of the species. caring for others who we know nothing about falls into the same category; plus it is also a learned behavior. so yes caring can be considered a moral and value in humans.  but in animals; which i assume you are trying to get at; no, it is simply instinct.@all4actt

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Maxx, I appreciate your honesty.  Unlike many other atheists on this site you will admit that your moral system is arbitrary and not rooted in any objective moral truth...

Your morals are lacking, still. You have no proven "objective morality". That is still demonstratively false by your actions as are your debunked "arbitrary" accusations as you get your morals from the same source, humanity. You point to the bible but you pick and choose when the bible means what it says and when it don't as it's contradictory, erroneous and you really don't comprehend well enough to speak on it.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@HUSHWH1111S ; Moral Right v. Moral Wrong is defined by the conscience infused within the human genome by our Creator at conception.

maxx

it appears to me that considering this is a philosophical topic; hence the category it was put in; then you believe that your religion is but a philosophical issue. stick to the categories or stay off. your religion has no biases here on this philosophical topic, now does it @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; I don't serve a "religion"...I serve Jesus...and He is your Creator and He placed His moral Law in your heart at conception and you will be Judged in accordance with what you have done with that Law and what you have done with Jesus as your Messiah and Creator. The philosophers have argued this trusim for Centuries...

maxx

yeah well.. you go ahead and believe that. this is a philosophy category. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; I do believe and morality/ethics are philosophical subjects; therefore, your suggestion that I, as a Christian, refrain from this subject is prejudice based in ignorance.

maxx

morals and values are human concepts; hence religion; if it is true, has no bearing on human made constructs. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; Morals and values are the products of a conscience infused within the human genome at conception. The Christian "God," Jesus Christ, infused this within you.

maxx

nope. children are taught right from wrong. If they were not, they would gladfully act in a manner that befits the lower animal kingdom. not only do you know little about nutrition; it appears you know little of psychology. ever had children rick? i bet you had to teach them what is right and wrong. Reading nothing but your bible all your life sure has blinded you from all other issues. i bet you haven't read a actual book since grade school. all your information comes straight from the web. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; Children have not reached maturation or understanding and are therefore very negatively affected by the Adamic nature but the moral intuition and ability to discern right from wrong is embedded in the human conscience by our Creator, Jesus Christ. 

 

maxx

you know, if you are going to attempt psychology, learn a bit of it first. If one does not teach a child morals he will grow up lacking them; it doesnt matter who teaches the child these morals; be it some book, a parent, peers or teachers. if not taught by some venue, they will not learn what is right or wrong. lack of maturity has nothing to do with it. It has to do what they are taught. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; The Holy Spirit stringently mandates training-up a child in the ways he/she is to go and that being derelict in this parental duty is dishonoring our Creator but this does not suggest the innate moral law infused within every human being at conception is void merit or authenticity...as that law is essential for the furtherance of the human species as the innate moral law thwarts unrestrained narcissism that would ultimately culminate in implosion and extinction; and in addition, the infusing of the divine moral law in the genome of humanity is essential for divine Judgment in the Day of Judgment as "where there is no law there is no sin" or culpability; therefore, every man and woman intuitively knows what is right and wrong conduct because our Creator has placed this intuition-divine discernment within the human conscience at creation and the Holy Spirit, who is the divine Restrainer of evil arbitrates the decisions of that conscience in order that Elohim's eschatological will come to fruition. This is why Elohim (Us-Our = Father, Son, Spirit) created the human genome in His own spiritual image (Genesis 1:26-28) and thereby imparted certain communicable divine attributes into that genome, one such divine attribute being the moral law and discernment.

@Factfinder @Joeseph ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @Polytheistwitch ; @Fredsnephew ; @MayCaesar; @JulesKorngold; @Maxx ; 

maxx

humans do not know initiatively what is right or wrong. negative. once again, tjhey have to be taught, by book, by parents as they grow, by peers, or teachers; or by society as a whole, which means laws. gods law is the same way; we are taught it by others, not born with the knowledge. what you call sin is just the absence of morals and values humans learn. take any newborn and not teach him. he will grow up with out any knowledge of good or bad.@RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; The Scriptures and I disagree with your presumption.  Mankind intuitively knows what is good and what is evil from the point of conception forward and subsequent sufficient maturation (an age of accountability), that knowledge of good and evil is subject to divine judgment by the Creator who infused same into the human genome of everyone created in His spiritual image. Humanity intuitively knows truth and what is good and what is evil...these are a divine Gift through Jesus our Creator.

Isaiah 5:20 

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Romans 2:6-8 

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

John 8:32 

And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Proverbs 2:6 

For the Lord gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding;

John 3:20 

For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

Hosea 4:2 

There is swearing, lying, murder, stealing, and committing adultery; they break all bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed.

Psalm 34:13 

Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.

James 3:13 

Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.

Matthew 15:19-20 

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person."

John 16:13 

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Job 32:8 

But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.

2 Timothy 2:15

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Romans 2:8 

But for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@maxx ; The Scriptures and I disagree with your presumption. 

Believe what you will, but reality disagrees with you. Children do not know not to hit or lie or steal till their taught the moral concepts behind such actions i.e. right and wrong. That is a human thing, not a fairytale elf god thing.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; @Maxx ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; We are all the product of Elohim's creative design and we all possess His natural-spiritual-moral law infused into our heart/conscience at conception and you can deny and decry and wail and moan and obfuscate to naturalism and evolution...but the fact remains, you intuitively KNOW moral and ethical discernment integral with your creation and you will be judged accordingly.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; @Maxx ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; We are all the product of Elohim's creative design and we all possess His natural-spiritual-moral law infused into our heart/conscience at conception and you can deny and decry and wail and moan and obfuscate to naturalism and evolution...but the fact remains, you intuitively KNOW moral and ethical discernment integral with your creation and you will be judged accordingly.

Yes as I said before, believe what you will. I just don't have the faith or the stupidity to believe in your unproven fairytale, that's all.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You are a dead-man walking in defiled flesh...your faith is abundant, it's simply misplaced in Satan and his works, NOT in the love of Jesus.

MayCaesar

Who we were created by, if anyone, has zero implications on what is moral for us and what is not. As an analogy, imagine that we create a race of intelligent robots that build a giant spaceship and fly away to Andromeda galaxy. 10 billion years from now they will be living there, advanced beyond our comprehension. How should they alter their behavior based on knowledge that 10 billion years ago a bunch of walking meat bags wrote their code? They do not owe us anything.

Your morals are determined by the needs of your organism. If you choose to service them by following an ancient book full of fairy tales, then your morals are not objective - your morals are just silly.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MayCaesar ; You were created by a Holy and Righteous Creator who is void sin and your worthiness to enter His Kingdom and live and serve Him eternally will be judged by at perfect, righteous, standard...it is His righteousness and His values that have been infused within your heart/conscience at conception for His divine eschatological purposes, alone.

Seeing that you have sinned against your Creator and fallen short of His perfect standard of righteousness, you have NO hope of living eternally with Him or entering His Kingdom as nothing impure will enter therein (Rev 21:27; Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12); therefore, your only Hope is to receive by faith the righteousness, the perfection, of Jesus as your Messiah, believing sincerely that Jesus died for you, and consequently the Father agrees to forgive and forget your sins, eternally (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 8:12); this, by New Covenant promise.

You have made the affirmative decision subsequent maturation to live contrary to the will of your Creator and the Law He has placed upon your heart; therefore, your only Hope is the righteousness of Jesus gifted over your life by faith in Jesus as Messiah and thereby honor the Father's will through faith in the Son (John 6:29) and receive a divine pardon for your sin, eternally in Jesus (John 3:16; 1 Peter 1:18-19; John 14:6).

@Factfinder @Joeseph ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @Polytheistwitch ; @Fredsnephew ; @MayCaesar; @JulesKorngold; @Maxx ; 

maxx

Morals are quite different than deciding if a situation feels safe and acting upon it. You also stated that pets are quite capable of learning from humans what is right or wrong. The key word here is learning.  That means that they are not born knowing it. Neither are humans
. We have to learn it from others. @Factfinder

Factfinder

maxx said:

Morals are quite different than deciding if a situation feels safe and acting upon it. You also stated that pets are quite capable of learning from humans what is right or wrong. The key word here is learning.  That means that they are not born knowing it. Neither are humans
. We have to learn it from others. @Factfinder

Okay. But I didn't make that argument. I think you have me confused with someone else. I agree morals are a learned construct.

maxx

i almost feel sorry for you rick. you rely on one book to the point that you have lost all knowledge of basic college concepts. i assume that you are retired and probably live somewhere in the south; maybe Indianna, judging by your speech. Are you actually stating to everyone here that if a newborn is not taught morals he will learn them on his own? next you will be claiming that the bible is the only material humans need in way of education.@RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; Au contraire....it is I who pity you as you're en route to a life of nihilistic wastefulness and an eternity of shame and sorrow and regret and you live a subpar life void the knowledge of your destiny and purpose and you're absent the love of Jesus Christ and the wonder and spectacular daily life of walking in the will of the indwelling Holy Spirit...it is you that is pitied in the Realm of the Eternal...you are Satan's fool and you're a wasted life with so much potential that is coming to NOTHING. You know very little about me, your judgment is without knowledge or experience.

A newborn has not attained sufficient cognitive acuity to discern good from evil, right from wrong; therefore, negative reinforcement for misbehavior must be implemented for the sake of survival but that newborn will mature and along that maturation process the conscience matures and our Creator's laws begin their work on that conscience via shame, remorse, regret, for misbehavior and elation, pride, integrity, for good behavior...these laws were infused at conception within the human genome and they will be elements of judgment and adjudication in that Day.

It is truly a pity that you are absent the Spirit and these things are so foreign to you...you will be sorry. Atheists truly are some of the most naive and willfully ignorant men and women in existence...though they may have pursued some secular subject and possess knowledge of same...atheists lack commonsense, wisdom, discernment, integrity. A loathsome people for sure; this, the causation for America's decline in moral filth, Marxism, atheism, secular humanism, self-righteousness in self-deception. 

@Factfinder @Joeseph ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @Polytheistwitch ; @Fredsnephew ; @MayCaesar; @JulesKorngold; @Maxx ; 

 

 

maxx

negative reinforcement is called "teaching" . That means they are taught not to do wrong. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; and? Did I not explain why that negative reinforcement is necessary in our youth? Can you not understand or do you not read well?

maxx

oh i understand. it is still called teaching which proves that we are not born knowing right from wrong as you say we do. it is a learned behavior that we are taught; not only by "negative" reinforcement" but by positive as well. psychology 101 mister rick. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; Once again...we are ALL infused with our Creator's laws and moral mandates at our conception just as Adam was on Day-6 as he was created in the spiritual image of Elohim and thereby possessed certain divine communicable attributes of Elohim; this, for Elohim's eschatological purposes going forward.

Children are NOT mature cognitively or physiologically and therefore their conscience is NOT mature nor is it able to accurately discern the moral code within it; therefore, negative and positive reinforcement are essential during the maturation process; hence, the need for parenting BUT once that conscience has reached an age of accountability; that is, the individual's conscience is sufficiently mature to differentiate between good and evil, right and wrong, moral and immoral, conduct they become acutely aware intuitively of what is good and sustainable conduct and what is not good or sustainable conduct. 

It is unfortunate that the atheist/secular humanist who has led a life of debauchery and wilful ignorance and arrogance concerning our Creator, their conscience progressively becomes "seared" and numb and they no longer possess the sensitivity to defiled conduct, the shame of same, and most assume the destructive ideology of "moral relativism" and it is at this point that our Creator gives them over to a debased mind...to do what is NOT naturally good or sustainable...the atheist becomes defiled, various stages of psychopathy...arrogant, illogical, they cannot reason properly...they have ultimately destined themselves to death in Hell through their consistent rejection of the Holy Spirit's call upon their life...many in this forum are on that path, are you?

@Factfinder @Joeseph ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @Polytheistwitch ; @Fredsnephew ; @MayCaesar; @JulesKorngold; @Maxx ; 

maxx

you know what? pointing and quoting from the bible is not proof. children need to be taught what is right and what is wrong. that is proof. morals are therefore not inherent in humans; and no amount of bible quotes will prove otherwise. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; The Bible contains the only relevant Truth you will find in this life...you mock it at your own ignorance and shame. It is the Holy Spirit who is the arbiter and restrainer of the conscience...you are obviously absent the Spirit in your life...it's been too long...

maxx

i do not care about your opinion. right now, you have shown no proof that humans are born with morals.  @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; Nor do I care about your impotent and irrelevant secular "opinion." Have a wonderful Sunday.

Factfinder

@maxx

@RickeyHoltsclaw Proves his god is without morals every day the way he keeps representing it. 

PorfirioDiaz2

"Right and wrong" from a deontological perspective, often associated with Immanuel Kant, "right" is defined as adherence to a set of rules or duties that are intrinsically moral, regardless of the consequences. For example, telling the truth is considered "right" because it aligns with a moral duty, even if the outcome might lead to harm. Conversely, "wrong" involves the violation of these duties.

In contrast, a consequentialist view, particularly utilitarianism, judges right and wrong based on outcomes. An action is "right" if it maximizes utility or happiness for the greatest number of people, and "wrong" if it leads to suffering or a reduction in overall well-being. Here, the morality of an action is contingent upon its results rather than any intrinsic qualities.

Virtue ethics, derived from Aristotle, defines right and wrong in terms of the development of good character traits (virtues). "Right" actions are those that reflect a virtuous character—courage, temperance, wisdom—while "wrong" actions exhibit vices such as cowardice, greed, or ignorance.