Is it mostly necessary to be an ignorant yokel to accept Christianity?

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hey Joe.

@Joeseph

Such was the demographic back in the day.


As it still is in certain regions of the world.


Though generational data transfer being what it is, means that even a better educated populous is still formatively misinformed and unwittingly programmed.

just_sayin

@Joeseph
No doubt Celsus hated Christians.

Many Christians were poor or slaves that is true.  Peter, Andrew, were poor fishermen.  However the notion that all early followers of Christ were poor or uneducated is wrong:  From Jules AI (Gotta say thanks Jules for showing me that tool):

Based on the search results and other historical information, here are some educated or wealthy early disciples of Jesus:

1. Matthew (Levi) - As a tax collector, he likely had significant wealth before becoming a disciple.
2. Joseph of Arimathea - Described as a "rich man" in Matthew 27:57. He provided his own tomb for Jesus' burial.
3. Nicodemus - A Pharisee and "ruler of the Jews" (John 3:1), indicating he was educated and likely wealthy. He brought expensive spices for Jesus' burial.
4. Zacchaeus - A chief tax collector who was wealthy (Luke 19:1-10). Though not one of the twelve disciples, he became a follower of Jesus.
5. Joanna - The wife of Chuza, Herod's household manager. She helped support Jesus and the disciples financially (Luke 8:3).
6. Susanna - Another woman of means who supported Jesus' ministry (Luke 8:3).
7. Mary Magdalene - Likely had some wealth, as she was able to support Jesus' ministry (Luke 8:2-3).
8. Simon the Pharisee - Hosted Jesus for a meal, suggesting some wealth (Luke 7:36-50).
9. Lazarus, Mary, and Martha of Bethany - Friends of Jesus who seemed to have a home large enough to host him and the disciples.
10. The sons of Zebedee (James and John) - Their father had hired servants, suggesting some level of prosperity in their fishing business (Mark 1:20).

Some others:
Luke was a physician
John Mark's father was a high ranking Roman soldier, so John Mark would have had an education (he would have also been the Nephew of Barnabas who was loaded)
Barnabas was wealthy (traditionally he is believed to be the rich young ruler that came to Jesus) 
Paul was an educated man, and a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin 
Origen - who is debating Celsus was wealthy and educated

"Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god." - Celsus

Celsus hated Jesus and says a lot of slanderous things.  But in writing his argument against Jesus, Celsus does confirm several important claims: 
Jesus had an earthly father who was a carpenter,
Jesus was alleged to be born of a virgin,
Jesus possessed unusual magical powers,
 and Jesus claimed to be God. 

I'm just sayin, even enemies of Christianity will sometimes confirm parts of the Bible.  The fact he openly admits Jesus performed miracles seems to strongly suggest Jesus did perform miracles.  Claiming Jesus had supernatural powers doesn't really diminish your enemy.

It appears you whipped out another argument that you thought was huuuuuggge, and said 'look what I've got in my hand', but when looked at, it shrank down so small it slipped into the quantum realm.  And it makes one wonder 'Does @Joeseph even have a point?' just sayin

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Just askin, just sayin.

@just_sayin

Do you think that Peter and Andrew were actually named Peter and Andrew?

Or was that made up some time later?

just_sayin

Fredsnephew said:

@just_sayin

Do you think that Peter and Andrew were actually named Peter and Andrew?

Or was that made up some time later?

1 Corinthians 15:5 is from an early Christian creed dated at no later than 18 months after the resurrection.  It calls Peter, "Cephas" which is Aramaic for rock.  Peter is the Greek word for rock.  So was Peter called 'rock' early on, yep.  But he was first called that in Aramaic, and then later in Greek.

Joeseph

@just_sayin

Dear oh dear you seem to think being rich somehow excludes you from being ignorant and gullible,  Wow !

Your father was possibly well off but that didn't prevent him from his genetic  stu-pidity  along with his moon headed wife telling their cabbage of a son ( you) that he could talk angel talk , apart from that you openly admit your father never stopped bragging about his size which he showed to you to verify , you young earth Penticostals kinda make the case for Celsus don't ya think?

Flying into a rage doesn't help your lost  cause , maybe your obsession with size along with God ignoring your prayers has you in this perpetual rage .......ZING 

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@just_sayin

Dear oh dear you seem to think being rich somehow excludes you from being ignorant and gullible,  Wow !

Your father was possibly well off but that didn't prevent him from his genetic  stu-pidity  along with his moon headed wife telling their cabbage of a son ( you) that he could talk angel talk , apart from that you openly admit your father never stopped bragging about his size which he showed to you to verify , you young earth Penticostals kinda make the case for Celsus don't ya think?

Flying into a rage doesn't help your lost  cause , maybe your obsession with size along with God ignoring your prayers has you in this perpetual rage .......ZING 

Thanks for mentioning my dad.  I know you are ribbing me, but I appreciate you thinking of him.  In a weird way, its therapeutic to talk about him.  Anyway, you got some things wrong.  My dad was a Southern Baptist like Rickey, though much quieter.  He was extremely quiet and would never have mentioned the size of his manhood.  My mom on the other hand is always TMI.  My dad did not parade his junk around.  He did have infections and skin growth issues that necessitated 3 circumcisions though.  My dad was bed ridden for the last 6 months of his life and I would change him.  I don't consider that my dad "flaunting the size of his manhood" though.  

I've never said I was a young earth creationist.  I guess God could have given the Earth the appearance of old age.  I'm comfortable with the science on the age of the universe.  My arguments have been about chemical evolution, which as I have pointed out, need at least 10 miracle level events to have occurred to even plausible.  

I'm surprised that Celsus has come up a few times on the site.  Somebody at wehategod.com must have done an article on him or something.  He wasn't important enough for anyone in antiquity to save even a single copy of his works.  The only way anybody even knows of him, is because Origen, who people did care enough to preserve his stuff, debated him.  Maybe you will be like Celsus when people look back at the debaters of the past on debateisland.  The guy who always lost to the Christian apologist.  just sayin

MayCaesar

The user in question is just an !diot. I would not make such sweeping generalizations based on one example, and I personally know quite a few Christians of a very high character, education, knowledge and career success.

Joeseph

@MayCaesar


The user in question is just an !diot. 

Yes I agree, I like you know a lot of decent intelligent  christians I'm married to one thankfully, I came across the commentary of Celsus regards what christians were  like regards in  his times.......[The Christians'] injunctions are like this. "Let no one educated, no one wise, no one sensible draw near. For these abilities are thought by us to be evils. But as for anyone ignorant, anyone , anyone uneducated, anyone who is a child, let him come boldly." (Against Celsus 3.44)....

I think what's he's saying is intelligent people might reject claims made by christians. Incidentally the majority of christians come to belief through ignorance as the teachings are normally introduced when one is to young and ignorant to object , indoctrination doesn't work otherwise.

Joeseph

@just_sayin


Of course I'm ribbing you if you're going to give it out you get it back. You keep proving you're incapable of debating fairly and honestly , from day one on here your response to most questions is sneery  one liners all because you seem terrified at the notion of people questioning your beliefs.

I've never come across people like you and Rickey who call themselves christians and yet totally ignore most of what Jesus said and did , for sheer nastiness you pair take some beating.

On the plus side there must be a tad of decent in you if you stepped up when your dad needed you , what point you're trying to make by open hostility and general nastiness is beyond me , do you think your dad would be proud of you?

He wasn't important enough for anyone in antiquity to save even a single copy of his works.

Yet Celsus wrote The True Word which puts him miles ahead of Jesus who never wrote a single word unless you count his writing on the ground with his finger words which no one knows .......You just lost again ......OUCH !


  The only way anybody even knows of him, is because Origen, who people did care enough to preserve his stuff, debated him.  Maybe you will be like Celsus when people look back at the debaters of the past on debateisland.  The guy who always lost to the Christian apologist.

Yet I've never lost to  you every time like above I make mincemeat of you as you're bible illiterate and as others have also pointed out a compulsive and uneducated.



  just saying

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; Christianity is a most logical faith. Our Creator has meticulously penned for you the reasoning for your existence in the temporary Realm of Time and His eschatological purposes and plan for Time and Eternity. If one reads the Scriptures with a heart willing to believe, their eyes are opened to causation concerning our Genesis and the reasoning for life in Time; unfortunately, the majority of contributors to this forum don't see, they can't hear, they are unable to reason because they are dead spiritually by volition. You are a most evil man...you will suffer horribly in Judgment lest you repent of your sin and blasphemy and humbly plead for Jesus as your Messiah by faith. You are dead spirtually, only Jesus can provide you new LIFE!

@Factfinder @Joeseph ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @Polytheistwitch ; @Fredsnephew ; @MayCaesar; @JulesKorngold; @Maxx ; 

 

MayCaesar

@Joeseph

I think that Christianity taps into the same aspect of humanity as various conspiracy theories. Believing that you have access to some secret knowledge that is hidden from regular people and requires communing with something external to the reality as we know it makes you feel special, "better" than others. You see Christians constantly use very obscure language: "Open your heart to god", "Embrace Jesus as your savior", phrases that do not have any concrete meaning. What does it mean to "open one's heart to god"? Is there a lock I am supposed to pick? Nobody knows - nobody can know since it does not really mean anything. But pretending that it means something very special that only the selected few can understand by employing thinking inaccessible to regular mortals is a great way to feel superior to others.

Or so it seems at the first glance. I have noticed that most fundamentalist Christians are actually extremely insecure about their beliefs. They will say that their beliefs give them confidence and peace, and yet they never stop trying to convert others. Whenever someone criticizes their beliefs, they get very uncomfortable and defensive. It is like they are not fully confident that their beliefs make much sense, so unless others continuously validate them, their persuasion goes down the drain. Lying about words of someone who criticizes their beliefs suggests that they are mortally afraid of facing serious criticism head-on, for the fear of realizing what they have been worried about the whole time - that their beliefs are wrong - trumps the desire for basic human decency.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

Or so it seems at the first glance. I have noticed that most fundamentalist Christians are actually extremely insecure about their beliefs. They will say that their beliefs give them confidence and peace, and yet they never stop trying to convert others. Whenever someone criticizes their beliefs, they get very uncomfortable and defensive. It is like they are not fully confident that their beliefs make much sense, so unless others continuously validate them, their persuasion goes down the drain. Lying about words of someone who criticizes their beliefs suggests that they are mortally afraid of facing serious criticism head-on, for the fear of realizing what they have been worried about the whole time - that their beliefs are wrong - trumps the desire for basic human decency.

That is spot on. That's why they run from an open exchange of ideas to asserting beliefs repeatedly with no support.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You two have no "ideas"...only demonically rooted obfuscation. There is only ONE "Idea" that honors life and morality and Eternity, Jesus as Messiah. @MayCaesar

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; You two have no "ideas"...only demonically rooted obfuscation. There is only ONE "Idea" that honors life and morality and Eternity, Jesus as Messiah. @MayCaesar

You just proved my point. But hey believe what you will. I just don't have enough faith for fairytales.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You do have faith in "fairytales"...you're just too dead spiritually to realize it.

Factfinder

@Joeseph

1st Corinthians 1:27 is one of the places god "word" admits deceiving his creation and ricky's too, shall we say "a few bricks shy" to know it. Designing confusing realities on purpose....LOL

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Not at all, I simply read and believed and the Holy Spirit changed my life...God has mercy on those who humble them self before Him.

Joeseph

@Factfinder Yet they still,  fall on their knees in gratitude to a god that admits deceiving them@RickeyHoltsclaw @RickeyHoltsclaw

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw


What are you trying to say Dufus?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; God does not deceive...He honors those who honor Him by faith...this, in Jesus as Messiah.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw


Christianity is a most logical faith


Is it indeed? Yet jesus sacrifices himself to himself to forgive our sins before we are born to avoid a loophole he created himself ........."logical"  ....bwahahahahahahahaha 


You ran from the last debate on why god created man just to wipe him out so better luck explaing above .....

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; You did not read my responses because you're fearful of the Truth as you find comfort in hating God and the Bible due your animosity to having been duped by the Cult of Catholicism and now you've literally "thrown the baby out with the bathwater" in atheism and blasphemy...you truly are the Devil's f-o-o-l.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

RICKETS IS STILL RUNNING..
...

Is it indeed? Yet jesus sacrifices himself to himself to forgive our sins before we are born to avoid a loophole he created himself ........."logical" ....bwahahahahahahahaha 

You ran from the last debate on why god created man just to wipe him out so better luck explaing above ...

just_sayin

@MayCaesar

I think that Christianity taps into the same aspect of humanity as various conspiracy theories. Believing that you have access to some secret knowledge that is hidden from regular people and requires communing with something external to the reality as we know it makes you feel special, "better" than others.

You really don't hear how pompous you sound do you?  You are virtue signaling that unlike Christians you don't virtue signal.  May, how you miss your own glaring hypocrisy is behind me.  Self awareness is not a strong suite for you.

First, who said God is a secret?  I'm fairly sure that at least one or two articles or TV clips have mentioned Him.  LOL  You believe there is no God. That doesn't make you better than me, just less observant. From our discussions it is obvious that no amount of evidence could convince you - whether it be evidence that prayer works, evidence of miracles, evidence that the universe came from zero space, evidence of the fine tuning of the universe, evidence of the complexity of even the simplest single celled organism, evidence for the resurrection, etc.  The personal dynamic of my relationship to God is foreign to you.  You believe you are superior because you don't believe in God.  I think I am better off with God in my life.

You see Christians constantly use very obscure language: "Open your heart to god", "Embrace Jesus as your savior", phrases that do not have any concrete meaning. What does it mean to "open one's heart to god"? Is there a lock I am supposed to pick? Nobody knows - nobody can know since it does not really mean anything. But pretending that it means something very special that only the selected few can understand by employing thinking inaccessible to regular mortals is a great way to feel superior to others.

I both agree and disagree with you.  I get your point that comments like 'open your heart to god', or 'Embrace Jesus as your savior' are vague and not specific that can leave people wondering what they are actually being asked to do.  So on that aspect of your statement, I can agree.  However, where I feel you miss it, is the relationship aspect.  People speak in relationship terms to describe relationships, they don't speak in scientific terms.  If you think a relationship with God is like reading the instructions for your toaster, then I want to encourage you to work on your emotional intelligence.  

Again you have made the claim that people of faith think that there are only a selected few who can access God and that they feel superior for it.  That is not my experience.  I like how James Kennedy once put it.  When someone talks about how to have a relationship with God, it is not from a place of superiority, rather it is more akin to one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.

Or so it seems at the first glance. I have noticed that most fundamentalist Christians are actually extremely insecure about their beliefs. They will say that their beliefs give them confidence and peace, and yet they never stop trying to convert others. Whenever someone criticizes their beliefs, they get very uncomfortable and defensive. It is like they are not fully confident that their beliefs make much sense, so unless others continuously validate them, their persuasion goes down the drain. Lying about words of someone who criticizes their beliefs suggests that they are mortally afraid of facing serious criticism head-on, for the fear of realizing what they have been worried about the whole time - that their beliefs are wrong - trumps the desire for basic human decency.

May, people of faith talk about God because He is someone meaningful in their lives.  It would be odd if they didn't talk about Him. When someone tells me about how they found a great mechanic, or a new restaurant they love, I don't think it odd that they share that.  Sometimes I am very appreciative that they did.  They found something they love and naturally tell others about it.  

Now people can get defensive  over their faith, that is true.  However, people can get defensive over their favorite sports team, politics, where they went to school, etc.  And let's cut the crap and be honest with yourself for a moment, you have gotten very defensive in conversations on this site.  I am remembering several science of the gaps discussions.  Why it would not surprise me if in your defensiveness that you blocked me or other people of faith on this site.  I'm sure you would just rationalize your defensiveness away if you did.  Does that mean that you are 'mortally afraid of facing serious criticism head-on'?  I hope that is not the case.

May, I can't speak for all people of faith, but I can tell you, that I would rather embrace truth than live a lie.  A faith in something that is a lie is of no benefit.  It might be more comfortable to dismiss evidence you don't like and claim that the science of the gaps will one day explain it, sure.  I see that on this site all the time.  But I think truth is better than deception - even if that deception makes you feel comfortable.  

Factfinder

@just_sayin

You really don't hear how pompous you sound do you?

The irony. 

First, who said God is a secret?  I'm fairly sure that at least one or two articles or TV clips have mentioned Him.  LOL  You believe there is no God. That doesn't make you better than me, just less observant. From our discussions it is obvious that no amount of evidence could convince you - whether it be evidence that prayer works, evidence of miracles, evidence that the universe came from zero space, evidence of the fine tuning of the universe, evidence of the complexity of even the simplest single celled organism, evidence for the resurrection, etc.  The personal dynamic of my relationship to God is foreign to you.  You believe you are superior because you don't believe in God.  I think I am better off with God in my life.

And true to form your pomposity emerges. @MayCaesar said "secrete knowledge" as in you arrogantly think you know more that you do. Proving once again either your a few bricks shy of a load or just plain dishonest. Probably both. It's obvious from your discussions you've no clue what "evidence" actually is. But you ignorantly point to unknowns and complexities and claim that means you're using science to support your faith which is both failed logic and a contradiction. Because if you know it's god via science, then you have no faith, instead you just had to know. Yet science doesn't point to god nor does it claim to. If your faith is in god then you would know invoking science and the imbecilic tactic of 'god of the gaps' arguing is erroneous by default as you're supposed to be proselytizing your FAITH, not your pride. Remember pride goes before destruction. It's well known you think you're superior to nonbelievers. Where as nonbelievers are simply just that. If you had a true "relationship" with the god of all creation you WOULD have some secrete knowledge (divine) but you do not and  you would be humble according to your fairytale elf book, but you are not. That's why you can't explain your hypothesis, "god did it". 

Again you have made the claim that people of faith think that there are only a selected few who can access God and that they feel superior for it.  That is not my experience.  I like how James Kennedy once put it.  When someone talks about how to have a relationship with God, it is not from a place of superiority, rather it is more akin to one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread

Except that beggars don't usually get offended/defensive if another beggar doesn't believe there is a bread line anymore and throw tantrums.

May, people of faith talk about God because He is someone meaningful in their lives.  It would be odd if they didn't talk about Him. When someone tells me about how they found a great mechanic, or a new restaurant they love, I don't think it odd that they share that.  Sometimes I am very appreciative that they did.  They found something they love and naturally tell others about it.  

But nobody gets offended if they don't accept what you say about your mechanic, but believers get offended when their faith in god is rejected. Plus a mechanic can be tested, your imagined god of choice lives and breathes only by the words of believers with nothing tangible to test.

Now people can get defensive  over their faith, that is true.  However, people can get defensive over their favorite sports team, politics, where they went to school, etc.  And let's cut the crap and be honest with yourself for a moment, you have gotten very defensive in conversations on this site.  I am remembering several science of the gaps discussions.  Why it would not surprise me if in your defensiveness that you blocked me or other people of faith on this site.  I'm sure you would just rationalize your defensiveness away if you did.  Does that mean that you are 'mortally afraid of facing serious criticism head-on'?  I hope that is not the case.

No he hasn't, nor have I. An unknown with the belief it may be known some day because of the continuous process of uncovering natures secrets isn't the same thing as your blind faith god of the gaps in your fictious myth books, 66 of them. Yeah so cut the crap.

May, I can't speak for all people of faith, but I can tell you, that I would rather embrace truth than live a lie.  A faith in something that is a lie is of no benefit.  It might be more comfortable to dismiss evidence you don't like and claim that the science of the gaps will one day explain it, sure.  I see that on this site all the time.  But I think truth is better than deception - even if that deception makes you feel comfortable.  

If only you meant that and would stop lying to yourself and misrepresenting others. But hey, believe what you will. I just don't have enough faith to believe in fairytales.

Factfinder

@Joeseph

Ricky can spam what the bible says but has no clue what it means. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; @Joeseph...try me?

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

We already did  by our either run ,dodge or lie.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; No...the truth is, you're too spiritually ignorant to understand...this is very common in atheism. 

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; @Joeseph...try me?

Why did your god create beings just kill and sadistically torture them forever all to satisfy an overblown human like ego after existing for eons without feeling the need to do so?

If your god is perfect, all knowing and benevolent why did it have regret instead of compassion? Why a fit of destruction instead of parental love and guidance? Cause of war with Satan? No, it created Satan too and knew eons before he did create Satan what Satan would do, so no, it's not that cause you still have the same problem, why? Your god can do anything so why not create a situation where love is truly reciprocated with all the nuanced mental and emotional feelings/trappings that comes with loving relationships? Instead of forcing itself on you under the threat of hell and deceitfully calling that a choice? Sounds like a petulant insecure child more than a god to me. Eschatological? Your god can do anything he could've prepared everything that would have the same significance only without the evil, but your god simply chose to create evil. Please explain in human terms as when you refer to "spirituality" it means nothing because no one has a choice but to be ignorant of what you will make up under the guise of spiritual awareness. So if your god is truly all that then logically explain these truths I speak. Or am I wrong and your god is weak, reliant on us to do what it can't? Why the sadistic side of your god?...

Genesis 6:6&7 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

I just don't have enough faith to be a theist. I like knowledge, facts and reality.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; It's all predicated upon war and victory over evil...Jesus died that you need not die in Hell but you're too arrogant and foolish to accept the pardon.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; It's all predicated upon war and victory over evil...Jesus died that you need not die in Hell but you're too arrogant and foolish to accept the pardon.

Pardon from what? What crime have I committed? War didn't existed till your god created it, that's the point your missing. Satan didn't surprise your god with his rebellion according to scripture, god purposely fed its pride (that emotion god created),  just like it hardened pharaoh's heart, so they would do as god willed and rebel. All according to your elf book. Explain that with logic, not running, dodging and lying. I just don't have enough faith to be a theist. Especially to a petty god. Maybe you should grow up Ricky?

Ezekiel 28:13-19 

You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. ...

Exodus 7:3-4King James Version

3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.

MayCaesar

I do not really read comments from people I do not respect - but @Factfinder I do respect a lot, and he happened to quote someone I do not respect, so I saw a couple of points. As usual, not much of value - but the comparison with meeting a good mechanic I found quite revealing. 

What can I say... I am not someone who would meet a good mechanic named John and then call everyone who does not use his services "a-John", claim that they have no objective basis for car maintenance and so on. And I certainly will not bring up this mechanic all the time in front of people who could not care less about cars. Maybe I am not enlightened enough.

21CenturyIconoclast

@Joeseph @RickeyHoltsclaw


RICKEY, YOUR DUMB QUOTE ONCE AGAIN IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP:  "@Factfinder ; It's all predicated upon war and victory over evil...Jesus died that you need not die in Hell but you're too arrogant and foolish to accept the pardon. "
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/192510/#Comment_192510

Again, if Jesus died, then why was he still alive to ascend to your 1400 square mile heaven where his disciples were watching?! (Acts 1:1–9)

Simple math, you have to remain dead for a TRUE SACRIFICE, duh!  










.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ;  Jesus is Spirit (John 4:24) who took upon Himself a body of flesh via hypostasis and the body Jesus used to provide you blood atonement as per the mandates of Leviticus 17:11 died at Golgotha due suffocation on a Roman Cross and that body was resurrected as prophesied three-days later as Jesus is the "firstfruits" of those who will be resurrected in like manner (1 Corinthians 15:20). 

You will follow Jesus in a resurrection (John 5:28-29; Revelation 20:11-15) as your body will die in Time but your spirit will not die (Luke 16). Your spirit will receive a resurrected body of "corruption" before the Judgment as you have denied Jesus as Messiah for the atonement of your sins (John 3:36)...you will stand before Jesus in a resurrected body of corruption and be adjudicated in accordance with your deeds done in the body while constrained by Time and physics and we know that no man or woman is justified by their works (Rev 20:11-15; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:20); therefore, you will be adjudicated guilty for sin, for having fallen short of the perfect standard necessary to enter the Kingdom of Elohim (Romans 3:23) and the "second death" in Hell will be your Judgment...a final death of horror, recompense, nihilism and wastefulness. 

The body Jesus used for atonement was never meant to remain dead but would be resurrected as an example of the resurrection of the "righteous" that is to come...it is in resurrected bodies of righteousness patterned after that of Jesus that the redeemed in Jesus by faith will serve Him, eternally, in the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21 & 22).

  

@Factfinder @Joeseph ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @Polytheistwitch ; @Fredsnephew ; @MayCaesar; @JulesKorngold; @Maxx ;