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Jesus is god can you prove me wrong?

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in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth". John 1, 1 ,14



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  • polytheistwitchpolytheistwitch 79 Pts   -  
    The God of Abraham is the god of the Jews. I don't believe based on what's in the Old Testament that he would ever send a messiah for everyone. Barely proof Jesus loved let alone but he's the son of a god. It's just another one of those things taken from the Greek myth culture of god's mating with women and having kids. There is absolutely nothing in the Old Testament that would even lead to the fact that he would get Mary, a human,  pregnant. Especially when there's all these stories about other beings like Angels who mated with people being evil for it.
  • FredsnephewFredsnephew 453 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Penelope Pitstop.

    @penelopemitchell

    Hey Penny.

    The Universe is in a blokes cupboard...Can you prove me wrong.


    He isn't a big bloke.

    It's just that the Universe is very very small.


    His name might be Ged or Jesus or Alan or Billy Fingers or Fish Fingers.

    But that's purely speculation...Rather like other naive hypotheses compiled a few hundred years ago
  • JoesephJoeseph 1233 Pts   -  
    The burden of proof is with you to prove there is a god you cannot do that , asking others to prove there isn't a god is ridiculous.
    FactfinderJulesKorngold
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1294 Pts   -   edited October 26
    @Joeseph
    Jesus and the New Testament do assert that Jesus is divine:


       - "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30)
       - "Before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58) - using the divine name "I AM"
       - Telling Philip that seeing him was seeing the Father (John 14:8-11)
       - Jesus claimed authority to forgive sins (Mark 2, Luke 5:20)
       - Jesus claimed authority over the Sabbath
       - Jesus claimed to be one with the Father (John 10)
       - Jesus accepted worship (Matthew 14:33, 28:9)
       - Jesus called himself the "Son of Man" (referencing Daniel 7)
       - Jesus used "I am" statements paralleling God's statements in the Old Testament
       - Jesus claimed to be the Messiah (John 4:25-26)
       - Jewish leaders accused him of blasphemy for making himself equal with God
       - They attempted to stone him for his claims (John 8:59, 10:31-33)
       - His claim to be God was the basis for his arrest and crucifixion
       - John stated "the Word was God" (John 1:1)
       - Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28)
       - Paul and other writers referred to Jesus as God in their letters

    So Jesus made the claim.  Did Jesus do anything that would suggest he was divine?

    Here is a short list of miracles Jesus' followers said he performed:
    1. Turning water into wine at Cana
    2. Healing the royal official's son
    3. Catching a large number of fish
    4. Driving out an evil spirit in Capernaum
    5. Healing Peter's mother-in-law
    6. Healing many sick and oppressed in the evening
    7. Cleansing a man with leprosy
    8. Healing a centurion's paralyzed servant
    9. Healing a paralytic lowered through the roof
    10. Healing a man with a withered hand
    11. Raising a widow's son from the dead in Nain
    12. Calming a storm on the sea
    13. Casting demons into a herd of pigs
    14. Healing a woman with an issue of blood
    15. Raising Jairus' daughter back to life
    16. Healing two blind men
    17. Healing a mute man
    18. Healing an invalid at Bethesda
    19. Feeding 5,000 men (plus women and children)
    20. Walking on water
    21. Healing many sick in Gennesaret
    22. Healing a Gentile woman's demon-possessed daughter
    23. Healing a deaf and mute man
    24. Feeding 4,000 men (plus women and children)
    25. Healing a blind man at Bethsaida
    26. Healing a man born blind
    27. Healing a boy with an unclean spirit
    28. Finding a coin in a fish's mouth
    29. Healing a blind and mute demoniac
    30. Healing a woman crippled for 18 years
    31. Healing a man with dropsy
    32. Cleansing ten lepers
    33. Raising Lazarus from the dead
    34. Restoring sight to Bartimaeus
    35. Withering the fig tree
    36. Healing the high priest's servant's ear
    37. Second miraculous catch of fish
    38. Rising from the dead
    Even non-Christians and enemies of Jesus in antiquity admitted that Jesus performed miracles:

    1. The Babylonian Talmud (Jewish text from late antiquity) accuses Jesus of practicing sorcery and leading Israel astray, implying he performed supernatural acts but attributing them to dark magic rather than divine power.
    2. Celsus, a 2nd century Greek philosopher and critic of Christianity, claimed that Jesus acquired miraculous powers in Egypt, though he denied these powers came from God.
    3. The Toledot Yeshu, a medieval Jewish text that may reflect earlier traditions, acknowledges Jesus' ability to heal and perform miracles, but attributes it to sorcery or stealing the divine name.
    4. The Roman historian Tacitus refers to Christianity as a "mischievous superstition," which some historians interpret as an indirect reference to belief in Jesus' resurrection.
    5. Josephus, the 1st century Jewish historian, referred to Jesus as a "doer of startling deeds," which some scholars take as an acknowledgment of Jesus' reputation for miracles.
    So even non-Christians and Jesus' enemies acknowledged he performed miracles, they may have put their own spin on it, but they could not deny what everyone acknowledged as true.  Further, Jesus' enemies also admit that he correctly predicted future events also.

    Which leads me to my next piece of evidence.  Jesus predicted his death and resurrection.  Multiple witnesses attest to this.  And there is good evidence to believe that Jesus did physically rise from the death.  Let's ask Jules favorite AI:

    Based on the search results and scholarly consensus, there are several key pieces of evidence that many historians and scholars consider credible support for Jesus' resurrection:

    1. The empty tomb: 
    - Multiple independent sources attest to Jesus' burial and the discovery of his empty tomb.
    - Even skeptical scholars like Bart Ehrman now acknowledge this as historically likely.
    - The fact that women were the first witnesses adds credibility, as they were not considered reliable witnesses in that culture.

    2. Post-mortem appearances:
    - Multiple independent sources report Jesus appearing to various individuals and groups after his death.
    - Paul provides an early list of witnesses in 1 Corinthians 15, including 500 people at once.
    - Scholars widely agree that the disciples had experiences they believed were appearances of the risen Jesus.

    3. The disciples' belief:
    - The disciples suddenly and sincerely came to believe Jesus had risen, despite having every reason not to.
    - This led to a radical transformation in their behavior and willingness to face persecution.

    4. Early testimony:
    - Paul's account in 1 Corinthians 15 is dated to within 5-6 years of the events.
    - The Gospel accounts, while later, are still considered relatively early by historical standards.

    5. Lack of competing narratives:
    - There are no early accounts offering alternative explanations for the empty tomb or disciples' beliefs.

    While these points don't prove the resurrection conclusively, many scholars consider them strong historical evidence that requires explanation. The resurrection is seen by some as the best explanation for these agreed-upon facts, though this remains a matter of debate among historians and theologians.

    It's important to note that while many scholars accept these points as historically likely, the conclusion that Jesus supernaturally rose from the dead is more controversial and often depends on one's philosophical and theological presuppositions.

    Citations:

    So there is very good evidence to believe that Jesus is divine.
  • RickeyHoltsclawRickeyHoltsclaw 1093 Pts   -  
    @penelopemitchell ; I believe what the Holy Spirit teaches in Scripture.


    polytheistwitch
  • FactfinderFactfinder 1501 Pts   -   edited October 26
    @just_sayin

    So there is very good evidence to believe that Jesus is divine.

    Where? I taught you better. One must prove god exist before one can claim a specific human in the ancient past was god.

    Appeals to authority is not evidence as scholars historically are wrong as much as they are right. Especially where emotional ties to ones belief systems are concerned. For instance there is no such prophecy that Jesus would be called a Nazarene. Any excuses offered up trying to support Matthews false prophetical claim doesn't change the err of his words in the 'infallible' word of god. That one of many errors and contradictions in the bible means the bible isn't evidence of itself and therefore "the bible says" isn't evidence of a gods existence, much less two of them, or a trinity of gods under the banner "one true god".

    The five historians you claim to be endorsements by enemies are actually vague references and skeptical criticisms of the claims of a new religious cult. Hence the unenthusiastic minor mentioning of historians of claimed cult like miracles that they themselves saw as myth decades after the onset of the cult and its claims. To this day some people believe Egyptian magicians performed miracles but you believe they were just tricks, correct?

    Maybe if you didn't totally believe without question what scholars say or the bible and thought for yourself; then you might be able to explain your faith without glaring falsehoods. Until then when you are posed with tuff questions you will either spam your indoctrinated views like your last post or you will answer like you have in the past... Such as when asked how can the bible be true when the creation narrative is so false scientifically and realistically, you answered to paraphrase: "It doesn't matter if it's old earth or young earth I still believe the narrative because god can give the illusion of an old earth". Which of course is not a logical reason in a conversation discussing "proofs" and is just blind faith. Point being YOU haven't reconciled your faith with knowledge of reality so you can't explain yourself. As that body of knowledge grows it will even get harder to reconcile nonfactual faith with it. That's okay, you're a man of faith. Just don't pretend science supports it when it don't. Gods existence isn't established in reality. 
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1294 Pts   -  
    @Factfinder
    Where? I taught you better. One must prove god exist before one can claim a specific human in the ancient past was god.

    LOL!  If God were to literally grow a man's amputated leg back after it had been amputated 2 years earlier, overnight, with a hundred witnesses willing to testify to the event, examined by a team of medical doctors and professors, have corroborating evidence from the medical doctor's who amputated the leg, have evidence from 2 cities who did full physical exams when he only had one leg, have 1000 pages of testimony taken under oath in a court setting, and have the medical records on top of that, and you would say 'that ain't no evidence, cause I says it ain't no evidence!'  And you know I am speaking the truth.


    Appeals to authority is not evidence as scholars historically are wrong as much as they are right. Especially where emotional ties to ones belief systems are concerned. For instance there is no such prophecy that Jesus would be called a Nazarene.

    The prophecy by Isaiah about a branch growing, literally uses the word 'Nazarene (NZR) in Aramaic.  And there are at least a dozen known books of prophecy that no one has an existing copy of today.  Again, this is your made up accusation.  The Toledot Yeshu even references the virgin prophecy in connection to Jesus.  It doesn't claim that Isiah wasn't talking about a virgin like you argue.    

    The five historians you claim to be endorsements by enemies are actually vague references and skeptical criticisms of the claims of a new religious cult. 

    They therefore, brought to him (Jesus) a lame man, who had never walked. Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name, and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah, Son of the Highest.  - The Toledot Yeshu 

    “Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

    “Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)

    Claiming that Jesus healed a lame man is not a vague claim.  Claiming he healed a leper is not a vague claim.  Claiming that he arose after death is not a vague claim.  LOL.  Keep it up.  You are making my case for me.  

    amen

    Until then when you are posed with tuff questions you will either spam your indoctrinated views like your last post or you will answer like you have in the past... Such as when asked how can the bible be true when the creation narrative is so false scientifically and realistically, you answered to paraphrase: "It doesn't matter if it's old earth or young earth I still believe the narrative because god can give the illusion of an old earth". 

    I have pointed out that the Bible does not say how old the earth is.  In Genesis 1:2 the earth already exists with water on it BEFORE the days of creation start.  I can't tell you if Genesis 1-11 is literal or what William Lane Craig calls mytho-history.  I believe God does miracles, and if a miracle occurred, I wouldn't be able to use naturalistic means to disprove it, because a miracle by definition, is outside of what is physically possible.  I am fine with saying that the universe is roughly 14 billion years old - even though the Methuselah star is dated at an age older than the universe (I'm wondering what your explanation for that is).   

    Fact, there is a lot of evidence Jesus performed miracles.  Even his enemies freely admitted it.  But your hatred for God won't allow you to admit what even Jesus enemies could freely grant.  It seems your preconceived notions are what keeps you from looking at the evidence objectively, not me.  
  • FactfinderFactfinder 1501 Pts   -   edited October 27
    @just_sayin

    LOL. No one witnessed the leg grow back and that's wasn't even the hoax you fell for, remember? You think it hopped out of a grave of two years and transported itself 50 miles back to its stump (or "god did it") at just the right time so no one can witness it reattaching with the former flesh intact with life scars and all, by your elf gods hand. No one saw that.  And despite it being expressly forbidden in your elf book you claim it's cause god answered the prayers of a beggar that were offered up to a graven image and statue. That is your delusional "evidence" and if you say that; then you would be speaking truth. As you've been so thoroughly debunked by everyone you try to convince of your fairytales it's not even funny anymore. 
    Joeseph
  • FactfinderFactfinder 1501 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

    I am fine with saying that the universe is roughly 14 billion years old - even though the Methuselah star is dated at an age older than the universe (I'm wondering what your explanation for that is).   

    Me too! We agree on something. :) But why on earth would you ask me to explain that seemingly illogical paradox? I can give you my opinion but I'm in no way an astrophysicist so I will not in anyway assert my opinion as the explanation. My opinion from what I understand is in measuring the age of Methuselah compared to the age of the universe there is about a 15% overlapped in the give or take in the billions of years so that may be an explanation but no one knows yet. I would think that as we speak scientist are working on it. Maybe reexamining the consensus of the age of the universe and/or the material/gas composition of the star, it being different than our own. This is science at work. They measure for data, not a predetermined premise. That's my opinion.  
    Joeseph
  • JoesephJoeseph 1233 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

    Jesus and the New Testament do assert that Jesus is divine:

    The Quran says Muhammad ascended to heaven on a winged horse , so your point is? 

    So there is very good evidence to believe that Jesus is divine.

    That's your definition of good evidence? Seriously? 

    If that's the case you must also accept Muslims claims regards Muhammad right?
    Factfinder
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1294 Pts   -  
    Joeseph said:
    @just_sayin

    Jesus and the New Testament do assert that Jesus is divine:

    The Quran says Muhammad ascended to heaven on a winged horse , so your point is? 

    So there is very good evidence to believe that Jesus is divine.

    That's your definition of good evidence? Seriously? 

    If that's the case you must also accept Muslims claims regards Muhammad right?
    I love your post and think the issue you bring up helps my argument.  It seems to me that a premise of your post is that there is no qualitative difference in claims about Muhammad and claims about Jesus.  But is this true?  No.  That is false.

    First, Jesus claimed to be divine.  Did Muhammad claim to be divine?  No he did not.  In fact the Quran says he was a sinner and in need of forgiveness.  Let's see if Jule's AI agrees:

    Based on the search results and Quranic verses provided, the Quran does not claim that Muhammad was divine, but rather indicates that he sinned and needed forgiveness. Key points from the evidence:

    1. The Quran directly instructs Muhammad to ask forgiveness for his sins in multiple verses:

    - Quran 40:55: "Therefore have patience; God's promise is surely true. Implore forgiveness for your sins, and celebrate the praise of your Lord evening and morning."

    - Quran 48:2: "...so that God may forgive you your past and future sins, and perfect His goodness to you..."

    - Quran 47:19: "So know, [O Muhammad], that there is no deity except Allah and ask forgiveness for your sin and for the believing men and believing women."

    2. The Quran indicates Muhammad was astray before receiving guidance:

    - Quran 93:7: "He found you astray, and guided you."

    3. Hadith sources record Muhammad praying for forgiveness of his sins:

    - Sahih Bukhari contains multiple narrations of Muhammad praying for forgiveness of past and future sins, as well as sins committed in secret or public.

    4. The Quran states that no creature on earth is sinless:

    - Quran 35:45: "If GOD punished the people for their sins, He would not leave a single creature on earth."

    5. The search results indicate that Muhammad acknowledged being a sinner and in need of forgiveness, contradicting later claims by some Muslims that he was sinless.

    In summary, the Quranic and hadith evidence strongly supports that Muhammad was considered human, capable of sin, and in need of seeking forgiveness from God, rather than being portrayed as divine or sinless.

    Citations:
    [8] https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/

    So Muhammad was a sinner according to Islamic sources.  Was Jesus a sinner according to those same sources?  No he was not.  From Jules' favorite AI:

    Based on the search results and available information, the Quran does not say that Jesus sinned. In fact, the Quranic evidence suggests Jesus had a special status of purity:

    1. In Surah 19:19, the angel announces to Mary that she will have a "faultless son" (ghulaman zakiyyan). The Arabic word "zakiyyan" means "pure" or "blameless".

    2. This description of Jesus as "pure" is unique in the Quran and is not used for other prophets.

    3. While the Quran acknowledges sins of other prophets like Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jonah, and Muhammad, it does not mention any sins of Jesus.

    4. Some Islamic scholars interpret the "pure boy" description as indicating Jesus' sinlessness, though this is not a unanimous view.

    Regarding miracles, the Quran does affirm that Jesus performed miracles, including:

    1. Speaking as an infant in the cradle (Surah 3:46, 5:110, 19:29-30)

    2. Healing the blind and lepers (Surah 3:49, 5:110)

    3. Raising the dead (Surah 3:49, 5:110)

    4. Breathing life into clay birds (Surah 3:49, 5:110)

    5. Knowing what people stored in their houses (Surah 3:49)

    The Quran presents these miracles as signs of Jesus' prophethood and special status, performed by the permission of Allah.

    In summary, while the Quran does not explicitly state Jesus was sinless, it portrays him as uniquely pure and does not attribute any sins to him. It also clearly affirms that Jesus performed various miracles by Allah's leave.

    Citations:
    [5]
    [8] https://carm.org/evidence-and-answers/there-are-no-non-biblical-accounts-to-the-resurrection/

    So even the Quran admits that Jesus was sinless and performed miracles.

    But Islamic texts say Muhammad performed miracles too.  But lacking is individual eye witness testimony and non-Islamic sources that confirm miracles of Muhammad.  Let's see if Jules' favorite AI agrees:

    Based on the search results provided and the information available, there do not appear to be any individual eye witness testimonies or non-Islamic sources that confirm the miracles attributed to Muhammad. The key points are:

    1. The Quran itself does not attribute supernatural miracles to Muhammad. It presents the Quran as Muhammad's only miracle and states that Allah did not give Muhammad miracles because previous generations had rejected miracles from earlier prophets[2].

    2. Claims of Muhammad's miracles largely come from later Islamic sources written centuries after his death, such as hadith collections and biographies[2][4].

    3. There is a lack of contemporary non-Muslim sources attesting to Muhammad's miracles. Some 7th century Christian writers mentioned a preacher among the Arabs, but identified him as a false prophet rather than a miracle worker[3].

    4. The earliest Islamic sources focus on Muhammad as a warner and messenger, not a miracle worker. Miraculous stories were added later, possibly in response to interactions with other religions that had miracle-performing prophets[2][4].

    5. Many of the miracle stories attributed to Muhammad bear similarities to biblical miracles and may have been developed to portray Muhammad as equal to earlier prophets[2].

    6. Some Muslim scholars argue for the reliability of miracle accounts through concepts like mutawātir (mass transmission), but these are based on later Islamic sources rather than contemporary eye-witness accounts or non-Muslim confirmations[4].

    In summary, while later Islamic tradition attributes many miracles to Muhammad, there does not appear to be solid historical evidence from eye-witnesses or non-Islamic sources to independently confirm these miracle claims. The earliest sources, including the Quran itself, do not emphasize miraculous deeds by Muhammad beyond receiving the Quranic revelation.

    Citations:
    [7]
    [8] https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/

    So, unlike Jesus' miracles, there are no eye witness accounts, no early accounts of miracles, and no non-Islamic accounts of miracles.  Yet for Jesus there are eye witness accounts, early accounts (1 Cor. 15 - has an early Christian creed many date to within 18 months after the resurrection), and at least 5 non-Christian sources that say Jesus performed miracles.  So there is a huge qualitative difference in evidence and claims.

    Thank you for bringing this issue up.  You have been a useful I....individual.  Thank you for strengthening my argument.  

    I appreciate you
  • JoesephJoeseph 1233 Pts   -   edited October 27
    @just_sayin

    I love your post and think the issue you bring up helps my argument.  It seems to me that a premise of your post is that there is no qualitative difference in claims about Muhammad and claims about Jesus.  But is this true?  No.  That is false.

    The premise of of my argument is that Muslims and Christians both believe in their particular Myths and what a shocker both say their particular myth is the correct one you quoting the bible (authors unknown) is a waste of time , the quran was written 20 years after Muhammads death and is also hilariously called the word of God.

    I've no interest in reading your religious rant but heartily recommend you travel to Saudi Arabia and put those Muslim scholars right I'm sure they would take your criticisms on board and happily amend the errors in what they claim is the world's only  perfect book.

    I wouldn't  think a return flight woukd be necessary .......
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1294 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin

    LOL. No one witnessed the leg grow back and that's wasn't even the hoax you fell for, remember? You think it hopped out of a grave of two years and transported itself 50 miles back to its stump (or "god did it") at just the right time so no one can witness it reattaching with the former flesh intact with life scars and all, by your elf gods hand. No one saw that.  And despite it being expressly forbidden in your elf book you claim it's cause god answered the prayers of a beggar that were offered up to a graven image and statue. That is your delusional "evidence" and if you say that; then you would be speaking truth. As you've been so thoroughly debunked by everyone you try to convince of your fairytales it's not even funny anymore. 
    LOL.  Eye witnesses said they knew the guy when he had 2 legs, knew him when he lost his leg, and then knew him when his leg was restored.  Medical records show his leg was amputated.  Doctors then confirmed and signed statements under oath that his amputated leg was no longer amputated.  While no one may have saw it grow back that night, no one alive at that time has said anything other than what I just started about the evidence.  You deny the facts of Pellicer's case because it doesn't fit YOUR fairy-tale that there is no God.  

    You make a big deal that the guy prayed to Mary.  While I don't agree with the need to pray to Mary and would just talk to God, I can't deny the evidence, which is EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING.  It doesn't matter if Pellicer was a saint or sinner.  It doesn't matter what God he prayed to.  The facts of the case are that a miracle occurred where his amputated leg was restored without surgery.  There is no naturalistic explanation.  

    I'm going to point this out again.  You are denying medical  and documented evidence because it doesn't fit your beliefs.  I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist.


  • FredsnephewFredsnephew 453 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Hey Rickey

    @RickeyHoltsclaw

    Things catch on.

    I bet a whole lot of people call you Rickey.
  • RickeyHoltsclawRickeyHoltsclaw 1093 Pts   -  
    @Fredsnephew ;  I don't know "a whole lot of people" but those who know me call me "Rick" or "RickeyD."
  • 21CenturyIconoclast21CenturyIconoclast 454 Pts   -   edited October 27
    @RickeyHoltsclaw

    "RICKEY D" YOUR ADMITTANCE IN HAVING TO BE A PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LONER, PRAISE YOUR TRUTHFULLNESS!!!:  @Fredsnephew ;  I don't know "a whole lot of people" but those who know me call me "Rick" or "RickeyD." 

    Yes, it would be obvious that you don't know a lot of Christian people because of you being so GAWD-DAMNED BIBLE STOOPID as the Atheists easily shows you since your arrival upon this Religion Forum!!!

    Literally shown below, is the reason that your fellow pseudo-christians don't want anything to do with you because you cannot address the following biblical morals of your Jesus as God, and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath!


    "But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

    1.  Rickey accepts that Lot’s two daughters had ungodly incestuous sex with their father, and biblically this is okay with Jesus as god!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181225/#Comment_181225


    2. Rickey accepts that if anyone tries to make him worship another god, then biblically he is to murder that person!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181425/#Comment_181425


    3. Rickey accepts that if his daughter is not a virgin upon her wedding night, then biblically he is to murder her along with others helping him!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181621/#Comment_181621  


    4. Rickey accepts that if his children do not follow his rules, then biblically he is to BEAT THEM WITH A ROD that leaves bruises!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181685/#Comment_181685


    5. Ricky accepts that if there are hard times, or for whatever reason, then biblically he could sell his daughter into slavery, praise Jesus!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181705/#Comment_181705


    6. Rickey accepts that his god Jesus biblically is an outright BRUTAL ABORTIONIST, and therefore he can’t attend Anti-Abortion Rallies because he would be a hypocrite!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181919/#Comment_181919


    7. Rickey accepts that his god's words say that his biblically 2nd class wife cannot speak in church, and is to just "STFU" when going to church!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181954/#Comment_181954


    8. Rickey has to accept that he has to HATE his family members, and his children, to be a disciple of Jesus, praise!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181975/#Comment_181975


    9. Rickey accepts biblically that if a Christian owns a slave, THEN JESUS SAYS they can BEAT THEM MERCILESSLY, praise Jesus!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181979/#Comment_181979


    10. Rickey biblically accepts that if he sees a christian working on the Sabbath, then his bible says to murder them!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181981/#Comment_181981


    11. Rickey biblically accepts that if your children curse him or their mother, then said child is to be put to death, praise Jesus!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181982/#Comment_181982


    12. Rickey biblically accepts that his Jesus as god screwed up when creating mankind through INCESTUAL SEXUAL RELATIONS through family members!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181984/#Comment_181984


    13. Rickey biblically without question, accepts that his second class wife's existence is to be ruled over by him because he is the superior man, praise Jesus!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182059/#Comment_182059


    14. Rickey biblically accepts that if his wife helps him in a fight with another man, he is to cut off her hand for helping him, praise Jesus' disparaging words towards women!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182060/#Comment_182060


    15. Rickey accepts that when his wife becomes a pain in the butt, Jesus' inspired words tell him to do the following, praise Jesus' words against women again!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182061/#Comment_182061


    16.  Rickey has to biblically accept that his god Jesus DEMANDED his Jewish creation "EAT THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS AND NEIGHBORS!" Ewwwwwwww, bad Jesus!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182078/#Comment_182078


    17. Rickey has to biblically accept that his Jesus as god said to him that he is to sell ALL of his possessions and give to the poor and needy, of which he has not done! 

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182079/#Comment_182079


    18. Rickey has to biblically accept again, that his god Jesus says to "murder homosexuals" and where he cannot say Jesus is wrong in this respect!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182080/#Comment_182080


    19. Rickey has to biblically accept the fact of how a Christian man is to seek out a 2nd class biblical woman for his wife, praise Jesus' examples!  

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182089/#Comment_182089


    20. Rickey biblically accepts that his 2nd class wife is a loser and knows nothing and is the "weaker vessel" of their marriage, so says Jesus' inspired words as god!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182090/#Comment_182090


    21. Rickey once again has to biblically accept that if he truly believes, he can pick up a "Rattle Snake," drink Drano, and heal a cancer patient, so saith Jesus as god!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182091/#Comment_182091


    22. Rickey biblically accepts that his Jesus as god was into ungodly PEDOPHILIA! How sickening can Jesus get???!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182110/#Comment_182110


    23.  Rickey biblically accepts that his Jesus assisted in the raping of innocent women!  Jesus is ever loving and forgiving? NOT!!!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182111/#Comment_182111


    24. Rickey biblically accepts this time, in that his Jesus has a rape law that makes the woman that was raped to marry her rapist and have his baby!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182112/#Comment_182112


    25. Rickey has to biblically accept again that his primitive Bronze and Iron Age faith is Christianity is based upon FEAR!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182199/#Comment_182199


    26. Rickey outright biblically accepts that his primitive faith of Christianity preys upon innocent children that can be scared to death of their faith!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182200/#Comment_182200


    27. Rickey unfortunately has to accept that his JESUS AS GOD MURDERED INNOCENT INFANTS AND SUCKLING BABIES, where how can he be considered ever loving and forgiving?!  

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/182201/#Comment_182201

    28. Rickey accepts that his biblical 2nd class wife is not to teach, or to usurp his authority over him, but to remain SILENT when at home and out and about!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/184362/#Comment_184362


    29. Rickey has told his wife that she cannot speak in church whatsoever, and she is to remain SILENT as Jesus’ words have told her, praise!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/184363/#Comment_184363


    30. Rickey has obviously told his biblical 2nd class wife that he rules over her existance, and she is at his beckon call 24/7/365 in everething that he demands!!!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/184364/#Comment_184364


    31 Rickey has to accept that his Jesus as god tells him to murder any blasphemer of Jesus, of which, he is to tell us how many has he had to murder to date?!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/186914/#Comment_186914


    32. Rickey accepts AGAIN that his brutal serial killer god named Jesus, is just a brutal killer of children that were innocent of their parents wrongdoings to begin with!

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/186915/#Comment_186915


    33. Rickey accepts that his ever loving and forgiving god named Jesus had his JEWISH creation EAT THEIR CHILDREN, where again, Jesus takes it out on the children and not their parents sin instead! WHY?

    https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/186918/#Comment_186918



    WHO WANTS TO BE A CHRISTIAN IN THE 21ST CENTURY OF SCIENCE AND REASON, WHERE THEY ARE TO WORSHIP AND PRAY TO THIS SICKENINGLY GOD NAMED JESUS, AS EXPLICITLY AND DEPLORABLY SHOWN ABOVE, .....................  RAISE YOU HANDS!  LOL!




    .
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 963 Pts   -  
    May be an image of text
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1294 Pts   -   edited November 4
    @JulesKorngold
    Is that right, or is it special pleading on the part of Jules?  Let's ask Jules favorite AI some questions to see. 

    First Question is there good historical evidence to believe that Jesus is not a myth and that he was a real person?
    Based on the available evidence, there are strong reasons to believe Jesus was a real historical figure rather than a myth. Here's an overview of the key evidence:

    ## Biblical Sources

    The earliest and most detailed accounts of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection come from the New Testament documents, particularly the Gospels and letters of Paul. While these are Christian sources, they are still considered valuable historical documents by scholars.

    A crucial piece of evidence is the early Christian creed found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, which scholars date to within a few years of Jesus' death[4]. This creed affirms Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, and post-resurrection appearances to various individuals and groups. Its early date and eyewitness claims make it significant evidence for the core Christian beliefs about Jesus.

    ## Non-Christian Sources

    Several non-Christian sources from the 1st and 2nd centuries mention Jesus, confirming his existence and providing some details about his life and followers:

    1. Tacitus (Roman historian, c. 56-120 AD) mentions Christ's execution under Pontius Pilate[3].

    2. Josephus (Jewish historian, c. 37-100 AD) refers to Jesus as a wise man and teacher who was crucified under Pilate[1][3].

    3. Pliny the Younger (Roman governor, c. 61-113 AD) describes early Christian worship practices centered on Christ[1][3].

    4. The Babylonian Talmud (Jewish text, compiled 70-500 AD) refers to Jesus as a sorcerer who was executed[5].

    5. Lucian of Samosata (Greek satirist, c. 125-180 AD) mentions Jesus as the founder of Christianity who was crucified[3].

    6. Celsus (Greek philosopher, c. 175 AD) criticizes Christian beliefs but acknowledges Jesus' reputed miraculous deeds[2].

    While these sources don't confirm supernatural claims about Jesus, they do provide evidence for his historical existence and some details about his life and impact.

    ## Archaeological Evidence

    While there is no direct archaeological evidence of Jesus himself, archaeology has confirmed many details about the historical and cultural context described in the New Testament, lending credibility to the accounts.

    ## Rapid Spread of Christianity

    The rapid growth of Christianity in the face of persecution is often cited as indirect evidence for the resurrection. Early Christians were willing to face death for their beliefs, which some scholars argue is difficult to explain if they knew their claims about Jesus were false[4].

    ## Conclusion

    While the strongest evidence for Jesus' life, death, and resurrection comes from Christian sources, there is sufficient non-Christian evidence to conclude that Jesus was a real historical figure who had a significant impact on his contemporaries. The supernatural claims about Jesus, including his resurrection, remain a matter of faith and interpretation of the available evidence.

    Citations:

    Let's Ask Jules favorite AI what non-Christian evidence is there that Jesus performed miracles:

    Based on the search results, there are several non-Christian sources from antiquity that mention Jesus performing miracles or suggest he had supernatural powers:

    1. The Babylonian Talmud (compiled between 70-500 AD) refers to Jesus as a sorcerer who "practiced magic and led Israel astray" [2][3]. While it attributes Jesus' powers to sorcery rather than divine origin, it acknowledges that he performed supernatural feats.

    2. Josephus, a 1st century Jewish historian, wrote in his work Antiquities of the Jews (around 93-94 AD) that Jesus was "a doer of startling deeds" [2][3]. This phrase is generally considered authentic by scholars and suggests Jesus had a reputation for performing miracles.

    3. The Toledot Yeshu, a Jewish text from around 400-500 AD (though possibly reflecting earlier traditions), describes Jesus healing a lame man by speaking "the letters of the Ineffable Name" [3]. While highly polemical against Jesus, it acknowledges his reputation for miraculous healings and other supernatural feats.

    4. Celsus, a 2nd century Greek philosopher and critic of Christianity, wrote about Jesus' miracles, though he attributed them to sorcery rather than divine power [3]. His writings are preserved in quotations by the Christian writer Origen.

    5. Thallus, a 1st century historian, apparently attempted to explain away the darkness at Jesus' crucifixion as a solar eclipse, according to a later citation by Julius Africanus [4]. This suggests early non-Christian awareness of supernatural claims surrounding Jesus' death.

    While these sources do not prove Jesus performed miracles, they demonstrate that even non-Christian writers in antiquity were aware of and felt compelled to address claims about Jesus' supernatural abilities. The fact that enemies of Christianity acknowledged these claims, even while trying to explain them away, lends some credence to Jesus' reputation as a miracle worker in the ancient world.

    Citations:
    [8] https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/u7jj0j/nonbible_sources_on_miracles/

    And let's ask Jules favorite AI if there is any good evidence of Jesus resurrection:

    The evidence for Jesus' resurrection comes from several sources, both Christian and non-Christian. Here's an overview of the key evidence:

    ## Early Christian Sources

    The earliest and most significant evidence comes from the early Christian creed found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8. This creed, which scholars date to within a few years of Jesus' death, states:

    "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."

    This creed is significant because it provides very early testimony to the belief in Jesus' resurrection and appearances.

    ## Non-Christian Sources

    While non-Christian sources don't directly confirm the resurrection, some allude to early Christian beliefs or practices related to it:

    1. Pliny the Younger (c. 61-113 AD) mentions that early Christians met on a fixed day (Sunday) to sing hymns to Christ "as to a god"[1]. This practice of Sunday worship is often linked to the belief in Jesus' resurrection on the first day of the week.

    2. Tacitus (c. 56-120 AD) refers to the Christian movement spreading from Judea to Rome, despite the execution of its founder. This rapid spread is often attributed to the belief in the resurrection[2].

    3. Josephus (c. 37-100 AD), in a passage considered partially authentic by many scholars, mentions that Jesus' followers reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion[3].

    4. Phlegon, a 2nd-century Greek historian, is quoted by Origen as having written about Jesus' predictions and resurrection. According to Origen, Phlegon "testified that the predictions were fulfilled"[4].

    5. The Babylonian Talmud, while hostile to Christianity, contains a passage that may allude to Jesus' empty tomb, stating that his body was stolen by a gardener[5].

    ## Indirect Evidence

    The rapid spread of Christianity in the face of persecution, and the willingness of early Christians to face martyrdom, is often cited as indirect evidence for their genuine belief in the resurrection. The transformation of the disciples from fearful to bold proclaimers of the resurrection message is also seen as supporting evidence.

    In conclusion, while the strongest direct evidence for the resurrection comes from Christian sources, there are non-Christian references that support the early belief in and impact of the resurrection claim. The early date of the 1 Corinthians 15 creed, combined with the transformation of the early Christian movement, provides compelling evidence for the early and widespread belief in Jesus' resurrection.

    Citations:
  • RickeyHoltsclawRickeyHoltsclaw 1093 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold ; If one denies the Deity of Jesus, they remain in their sin as the one who denies the Deity of Messiah is not "born again" of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5) as the Spirit teaches and testifies of Messiah's Deity and the necessity for same (John 1; Hebrews 1; Colossians 1). Jesus told you that if you deny He is "I AM" (Exodus 3:14), you will die in your sin (John 8:24).


  • Jules1Jules1 41 Pts   -  
    Nope, but I can't prove you right either, that's the thing with any religion. The only "proof" is self-referential. But hey, if it makes you feel happy, follow any religion you want.
  • RickeyHoltsclawRickeyHoltsclaw 1093 Pts   -  
    @Jules1 ; Please properly address your comments so the intended recipient will receive and rebut if desired? You are dead spiritually, ignorant of Scripture, dying in your sin in reality...without Jesus, you have no hope. 

     
  • FactfinderFactfinder 1501 Pts   -  
  • RickeyHoltsclawRickeyHoltsclaw 1093 Pts   -  
    I implore the few logical individuals in this demonic forum to reject the demonic rhetoric of @Factfinder...if you listen to this demonically persuaded Judas you will find yourself in Hell without hope and without excuse. Trust in Jesus as your Messiah, receive the indwelling Holy Spirit and walk with Him in daily Christian sanctification...find purpose, life, and meaning and assurance and most of all...Peace...with our Heavenly Father. Let the demons in this perverse forum clamor for Hell...do not follow them.


  • FactfinderFactfinder 1501 Pts   -  
    Debunking Christianity Rampant Idiocy in Christian Belief
  • Jules1Jules1 41 Pts   -  
    @RickeyHoltsclaw
    I thought I mentioned the person who posted it, sorry. If god is real exactly as Christianity claims, then would he not value the actions of a man rather than their religion? If someone worships Allah and feeds the children and clothes the poor, he is going to Heaven, no? If an atheist lives as a good person, he too will go to heaven? If god ignores the actions of someone only because they did or did not believe in his word, that is not a god I wish to worship. 
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 963 Pts   -  
    Judaism generally believes that righteous people of all faiths have a place in the World to Come, not just Jews.  Reasonable.  Yay Jews!
  • RickeyHoltsclawRickeyHoltsclaw 1093 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold ; Judaism is a "religion" of works and self-righteousness; if Judaism was a path to righteousness with the Father, there would have been no need for the New Covenant and the Gospel and the death of Jesus for your sin-debt. Judaism was a roadmap to Messiah by faith, Judaism was NEVER the destination.


  • RickeyHoltsclawRickeyHoltsclaw 1093 Pts   -   edited November 4
    @Jules1 ; Islam's Allah is Satan masquerading as an angel of light via the Arabic moon god...Islam is demonic and wars against the will of our Creator, Elohim. Elohim and Allah are arch enemies represented within the Realm of Time by Iran/Islam v. Israel.

    Elohim's forgiveness and favor is not earned through human effort (Ephesians 2:8-9) but Elohim, the Father, is only honored by our faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, which initiates New Covenant relationship with Him, eternally (John 3:16). It is our works and efforts and deeds done through the indwelling Holy Spirit SUBSEQUENT having established New Covenant relationship with the Father through faith in Jesus (Ephesians 1:13-14) that actually pleases the Father; this, through the production of divine fruit (Galatians 5:16-23) produced by the Spirit through the redeemed in Jesus, fruits of righteousness that please the Father (John 15:8). 

    Unless we have established covenant with the Father through faith in the Son, Jesus Christ, our works, our best efforts, on our best days, are considered a "filthy rag or garment" (in the Hebrew--literally, a bloody menstrual cloth) in God's nose (Isaiah 64:6)...as God honors faith in His Son, first...our efforts are only acknowledged once we have first entered into Covenant with the Father by faith in Jesus.

    The Father honors those who have honored His Son by faith in Jesus as Messiah. 





  • just_sayinjust_sayin 1294 Pts   -  
    @Jules1
    The only "proof" is self-referential.

    I don't understand what you mean. Can you elaborate? 
  • FactfinderFactfinder 1501 Pts   -  
    @Jules1
    The only "proof" is self-referential.

    I don't understand what you mean. Can you elaborate? 
    Hearsay.
  • Jules1Jules1 41 Pts   -  
    @just_sayin
    Most proof of religion relies upon a bedrock assumption that must be present. This is not a critique of religion, believe what you want as long as it doesn't harm other people
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 963 Pts   -  
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