Trump is a better canadite than Kamala

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Penny Whistle.

@penelopemitchell

Funny how Donald is regarded as Trump and Harris is regarded as Kamala.

Must be etiquette I suppose.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: ?

What's a "canadite"?

MayCaesar

Well, you have not provided any argument in favor of your statement. "Better" according to which set of criteria? There is nothing to prove wrong, really.

I would prefer Trump to win the election, but both candidates are so woefully incompetent that I do not even think I will look up the result the day after the election. This is the first US election I witness in which I have absolutely zero interest. Which candidate wins is less interesting to me than which drink I will have before my run next morning - tea or coffee.

Joeseph

Trump is a better canadite


Is that someone who likes Canadians?

Factfinder

Trump likes Canadians better than Harris does? Who knew? LOL

just_sayin

Trump is a serial-lying narcissist.  He believes loyalty only works one way and accepts no responsibility for his failures.   That said, he's still a better candidate than Harris who has expressed racist, bigoted, Marxist views when she wasn't talking in word salads.  She lied about her knowledge of Biden's mental decline and she cast the deciding vote in bills that dramatically added to Bidenflation.  Harris has expressed support for

Racist policies
1) she supports keeping poor Black kids chained to failed public schools rather than allowing them educational freedom
2) she supports discriminating in college admissions based on the race of the applicant
3) she supports discriminating against persons in hiring, promotions, benefits, awards, giving scholarships, grants, and contracts based on the persons race
4) she supports permitting illegal labor which disproportionately hurts Black workers to the tune of $1,000 - $2,000 a year in lost wages

Sexist policies
1) She supports letting biological men compete against biological women in women's sports
2) She supports mandating the use of pronouns that do not match someone's gender - even if it violates someone's religious beliefs
3) She wants to redefine what a woman is and literally demean women
4) She wants to allow teen boys into girls locker rooms and bathrooms if they say they feel like a woman (though she can't define that word)

Pro-pedophile policies
1) Harris supported the Biden administration's efforts to undo Trump's mandate that all sexual assaults by educators be reported to the DOE.
2) Harris opposed bills that mandated parental rights - specifically the right to be notified if a child showed signs of gender dysphoria
3) Harris supported the display of sexually explicit images and depictions in books for grade school children - this included images in the book Gender Queer of minors performing oral sex and of an adult naked man holding the junk of a naked boy, who was not a man, and the narrator saying that he/she wished that people were more accepting of different sexual expressions.
4) Harris supported Biden's misuse of the FBI to investigate mothers at PTA meetings.

Anti-child policies
1) Harris supports the killing of innocent unborn babies, and maybe born babies, from conception through ----- unknown, even if the child is viable
2) Harris supports the bodily mutilation of minors suffering from gender dysphoria, even though studies show that 80 percent of minors experiencing gender dysphoria will not identify as a different sex as an adult.  

Anti-police policies
1) Harris chanted against police and her campaign paid the bail of Black Lives Matter rioters
2) Harris minimized the attacks on police officers during the BLM riots
3) Harris said resources should be taken from police departments during the 2020 BLM riots
4) She praised the LA police department for reducing its police budget by $150 million.
5) She refused to seek the death penalty for a violent cop killer.

Geez, I haven't really even touched on her economic policies or her pro-unlawful immigration policies.  She is truly a worse candidate.  Give me mean tweets over the racist, sexist, pro-pedophile, anti-child, and anti-police policies of Harris and the Democrats.

Dreamer

Trump lies, lies, and lies.

203 pants on fire 19%.

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

Compare that to Harris.

0 pants on fire 0%

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/kamala-harris/

Or how about the 30k lies while president

https://theconversation.com/all-american-presidents-have-lied-the-question-is-why-and-when-176663

 or the bottomless pinocchio, false claim that has been repeated over 20 times?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/12/10/meet-bottomless-pinocchio-new-rating-false-claim-repeated-over-over-again/

Harris is way more honest than Trump. Let alone that Trump has made some anti-vaccine rhetoric.

"on at least 17 occasions this year, Trump has promised to cut funding to schools that mandate vaccines."

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/30/health/trump-vaccine-skepticism-partner-kff-health-news/index.html

In comparison Harris received a covid vaccine live to boost vaccine levels. 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/watch-vice-president-elect-kamala-harris-gets-moderna-covid-19-vaccine

This alone would make me anti-Trump and pro Harris and I am very pro-vaccine.

Trump denies climate change over and over.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-climate-change-global-warming-b2459167.html

"Climate action has run through Harris’s career for decades. As California’s attorney general, Harris sued big oil companies like BP and ConocoPhillips, and investigated Exxon Mobil for its role in climate change disinformation."

https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/23/climate/kamala-harris-on-climate-energy/index.html

Do I really need to continue? Trump has done so many dishonest deeds that it doesn't do him justice to criticize him, in fact it can backfire and seem like grasping at straws or make him out to be a clown than the menace that he is. I could fill hundreds of pages full of why not to vote for Trump. What really need is more reasons to vote for Kamala Harris. I don't think many people heard of her until recently.

Joeseph

@Dreamer



Wow! What a startling revelation politicians lie all except Kamal of course , there's two dreadful candidates for president yet Trump is still preferable I think as cost of living no matter what way you dress it up increased under Biden.

It's utterly childish to engage in this constant tit for tat , it  is what it is Americans have to make do with extremely limited choices , Kamala was ahead in polls not now she keeps shooting herself in the foot , she wants to be president yet admits she's not great under pressure,  seriously?

She's also proved as was commented on that she's a flip flopper, hers an example of her doing what you say she never did ......lying .....or what's your spin on that?


 2024. Piroschka Van De Wouw/Reuters

CNN

 — 

When Kamala Harris ran for president in 2019, she repeatedly warned oil companies they should be prepared to face hefty fines and even criminal prosecution under a future Harris administration for their role in contributing to climate change.

Now, as the Democratic nominee, Harris is highlighting the country’s record oil and gas production. She rarely talks about climate change, and, despite having been a vigorous supporter of the Green New Deal, her campaign’s website is light on climate policy details.

It’s a stark shift that illustrates the delicate politics of energy — but also how Harris has abandoned a number of progressive positions she held before joining Joe Biden’s ticket in 2020.

The bigger question is how did America end up being in such a state of affairs that these two ended up vying for one of the most important posts in the world , it's like the stuff of fiction.

Dreamer

There is too many claims for me to debunk thoroughly. Notice how there is no links backing up these claims, meanwhile in my post I back up everything even the easily proven should be public knowledge claims. It is near election day so I can guess I can spare the time.

"Racist policies
1) she supports keeping poor Black kids chained to failed public schools rather than allowing them educational freedom
2) she supports discriminating in college admissions based on the race of the applicant
3) she supports discriminating against persons in hiring, promotions, benefits, awards, giving scholarships, grants, and contracts based on the persons race
4) she supports permitting illegal labor which disproportionately hurts Black workers to the tune of $1,000 - $2,000 a year in lost wages "

Let's take this apart one by one.

1) The problem is under funded public schools and redlining. Schools are funded locally and low income house holds are clumped together meaning a school in that district will be underfunded. The opposite is also true high income households are also squeezed together and over funded. The solution is federal school tax in lieu of local and redistribute the wealth sort of like federal income taxes.



Charter schools just muddy the waters taking money from public schools.

2) and 3) are reverse racism myth. That somehow affirmative action is discrimination against whites. This has been made ad nausea since at least the 70s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism

Affirmative action seeks to promote racial equity and address past injustices, intent matters.

4) I assume you are addressing undocumented immigrants also known as undocumented citizens. First, some of these undocumented are naturalized they have been born in the US but lack the paperwork. Second, somebody has to buy the goods and services Black workers produce and the undocumented add to the economy by buying. Just_Sayin only looks at one side of the equation w/o evidence.

"multiple studies have found that immigrants help the economy grow."

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/making-sense/4-myths-about-how-immigrants-affect-the-u-s-economy

 I am already tired:

"Sexist policies
1) She supports letting biological men compete against biological women in women's sports
2) She supports mandating the use of pronouns that do not match someone's gender - even if it violates someone's religious beliefs
3) She wants to redefine what a woman is and literally demean women
4) She wants to allow teen boys into girls locker rooms and bathrooms if they say they feel like a woman (though she can't define that word)"

5. Again the fig leaf of anti-trans dog whistle hiding behind protecting cis woman. There is no clear cut advantage for transgender woman. Just for starters transgender people are more likely to experience poverty or be kicked out of their home losing access to what many rich people have a luxury at home gym and personal trainer. A person should be more worried about other injustices in sports. There also isn't enough data to make a determination either way.

Meanwhile transgender individuals face violence, suicide, poverty, homelessness, and discrimination.

https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2024/09/25/nx-s1-5127347/more-trans-teens-attempted-suicide-after-states-passed-anti-trans-laws-a-study-shows

6. Who cares about people's religious beliefs, the evangelical church has been poisoned, there are ten fatal flaws of the bible. People use religion as an excuse for vaccine exemptions. Gender is a social construct anyways.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/06/evangelical-church-pastors-political-radicalization/629631/

7) Again gender is more complicated than what people think, ignorance there is a cure read SBM articles by AJ Eckert.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/ajeckert/

8. Why is there even bathrooms and locker rooms on that criteria? This also harms intersex individuals. All bathrooms and locker rooms should be all gender. There are already many all gender bathrooms in a city I live near.

"Pro-pedophile policies
1) Harris supported the Biden administration's efforts to undo Trump's mandate that all sexual assaults by educators be reported to the DOE.
2) Harris opposed bills that mandated parental rights - specifically the right to be notified if a child showed signs of gender dysphoria
3) Harris supported the display of sexually explicit images and depictions in books for grade school children - this included images in the book Gender Queer of minors performing oral sex and of an adult naked man holding the junk of a naked boy, who was not a man, and the narrator saying that he/she wished that people were more accepting of different sexual expressions.
4) Harris supported Biden's misuse of the FBI to investigate mothers at PTA meetings."

9. I don't know what you are talking about I assume DOE stands for department of education. Trump has lots of woman come forward with allegations against him.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/assault-allegations-donald-trump-recapped

10. How in anyway is this Pro-pedophile? This seems like an old trope against gays recycled. Pedophiles are attracted to youth. This goes back to before WWII.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_grooming_conspiracy_theory

11. What is this Moms for liberty talking point? They lie.

"and has advocated books bans"

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/moms-liberty

This is where links help even if I disagree so I can at least understand what point you are making and where you are coming from.

12. This is just plain false.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/oct/11/rick-scott/rick-scott-wrongly-warns-fbi-coming-after-loud-par/

"Anti-child policies
1) Harris supports the killing of innocent unborn babies, and maybe born babies, from conception through ----- unknown, even if the child is viable

2) Harris supports the bodily mutilation of minors suffering from gender dysphoria, even though studies show that 80 percent of minors experiencing gender dysphoria will not identify as a different sex as an adult.  "

13. Again with abortion, crisis pregnancy centers make false claims and are fake abortion clinics. Implantation failure is high, abnormal pregnancies including molar pregnancy. This anti-choice ideology must stop. 

14. Where are you getting these statistics from? " Medical experts support gender-affirming care; politicians should not be interfering in medical decisions made between a health care provider and their patients"

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/gender-affirming-care-is-not-experimental/

Please stop attacking science. Stalin's anti-science stance lead to mass starvation according to Hotez.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

"Anti-police policies
1) Harris chanted against police and her campaign paid the bail of Black Lives Matter rioters
2) Harris minimized the attacks on police officers during the BLM riots
3) Harris said resources should be taken from police departments during the 2020 BLM riots
4) She praised the LA police department for reducing its police budget by $150 million.
5) She refused to seek the death penalty for a violent cop killer."

15. Listen to the language, BLM protestors not rioters. Have you learned anything from our previous discussions about race? Here's a treasure trove of links about racial equity.

https://www.americaandmoore.com/21-day-habit-building

16. George Floyd was murdered by police on video for crying out loud. How did you expect people to react?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd

17. The demilitarization of the police probably is a good idea or at the least teach them about why racial profiling is bad. Driving While Black.

18. Same as 17 too similar.

19. Many people oppose the death penalty because DNA evidence proves them innocent.

https://innocenceproject.org/dna-and-wrongful-conviction-five-facts-you-should-know/

Well that took over an hour, as always you can simply wear me down with your gish gallop or flooding the zone or whatever you want to call it.

Dreamer

"Wow! What a startling revelation politicians lie all except Kamal of course , there's two dreadful candidates for president yet Trump is still preferable I think as cost of living no matter what way you dress it up increased under Biden"

Harris tells way less falsehoods. Look at the links I posted. Way more percent of what she says is true or mostly true on politifact. I think Kamala is a great candidate and Trump is a dreadful candidate. Yes, cost of living went up under Biden. But how much was his fault?

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/apr/20/jane-timken/bidens-american-rescue-plan-fueled-inflation-so-di/

Prices rose because of supply shortages caused by the pandemic. Now which candidate is more anti-vaxx and anti-mask? After-all more dead or disabled workers means more supply shortages. Trump is anti-vaxx and Kamala got her vaccine live and is pro-vaccine.

How about Ukraine being the bread basket of the world how did that effect prices when Russian unprovoked invaded? I stand with Ukraine.

Also, the stimulus relief did help people, but yes your are correct it did cause some of inflation. Yet, didn't Trump say he was going to give out stimulus relief too? Inflation was caused by a trifecta of the stimulus, pandemic, and Russia invading Ukraine.

Joeseph

@Dreamer

Harris tells way less falsehoods. Look at the links I posted. Way more percent of what she says is true or mostly true on politifact. I think Kamala is a great candidate and Trump is a dreadful candidate. Yes, cost of living went up under Biden. But how much was his fault?

Doesn't matter bottom line is the average American  man,  woman want more dollars in their monthly take home pay  cheque 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/apr/20/jane-timken/bidens-american-rescue-plan-fueled-inflation-so-di/


It's not a lie count test most know Trump is a lot of bluster but how's Kamal any better she's a proven flip , flopper.

Prices rose because of supply shortages caused by the pandemic. Now which candidate is more anti-vaxx and anti-mask? After-all more dead or disabled workers means more supply shortages. Trump is anti-vaxx and Kamala got her vaccine live and is pro-vaccine.


Pro/  Anti wax so what? What's that got to do with cost of living issues.

How about Ukraine being the bread basket of the world how did that effect prices when Russian unprovoked invaded? I stand with Ukraine.

My country is full of Ukranian refugees mostly men  who fled at the first shot ,I dislike Putin yet  Zelensky has turned into an attention seeking media whore yet  claims to be an ordinary Joe,  he is leader of a country famed for it corruption especially amongst politicians.

Very telling also Zelenskys circle is full of billionaires and he claims to be on an average wage seriously? Do some research.

Also, the stimulus relief did help people, but yes your are correct it did cause some of inflation. Yet, didn't Trump say he was going to give out stimulus relief too? Inflation was caused by a trifecta of the stimulus, pandemic, and Russia invading Ukraine.

Do you seriously believe Kamal will deliver if elected?

just_sayin

@Dreamer
PolitiFact is owned by the Tampa Times, a very leftist 'news' group.  Do you seriously think that Harris does not outright lie and has not lied during her campaign?  I know her interviews are a word salad and hard to make any sense of, but the issue is more of what the editors choose to review and differing standards applied when items are reviewed.

Sure Trump lies - and lies a lot.  However, if you think Harris hasn't also lied to you then you are exactly the level of voter she is looking for.

From Jules favorite AI:

Based on the search results, there are several examples and analyses suggesting potential leftist bias in PolitiFact's fact-checking:

1. Statistical disparities:

- A 2011 study by Smart Politics found that PolitiFact rated Republican statements as "false" or "pants on fire" 39% of the time, compared to just 12% for Democratic statements.

- A 2012 study by the Center for Media and Public Affairs (CMPA) found that PolitiFact rated Republican statements as false twice as often as Democratic statements during the 2012 presidential campaign.

- A 2013 CMPA study showed PolitiFact rated 32% of Republican claims as "false" or "pants on fire," compared to 11% of Democratic claims - a 3 to 1 margin.

2. Selection bias concerns:

- The 2011 Smart Politics analysis raised questions about which statements PolitiFact chooses to fact-check, suggesting potential bias in selection.

3. Consistency issues:

- While the search results don't provide specific examples of PolitiFact grading Democrats more leniently than Republicans for the same statement, they do highlight overall patterns suggesting less favorable treatment of Republican claims.

4. Persistent patterns:

- Multiple studies over different time periods (2010-2013) showed similar patterns of Republicans receiving more negative ratings than Democrats.

5. Comparisons to other fact-checkers:

- One commenter noted that FactCheck.org showed similar patterns of selecting more Republican statements to check and finding more of them false.

It's important to note that these studies don't definitively prove bias, as the disparities could potentially reflect actual differences in accuracy between parties. PolitiFact maintains they choose facts to check based on newsworthiness, not partisan considerations. However, the consistent pattern across multiple analyses has led to ongoing debate about potential bias in PolitiFact's methodology and ratings.

Citations:

[1] https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/05/study-politifact-says-republicans-lie-more-164943

[2] https://smartpolitics.lib.umn.edu/2011/02/10/selection-bias-politifact-rate/

[3] https://cmpa.gmu.edu/study-politifact-rates-gop-as-biggest-/

[4] https://cmpa.gmu.edu/study-media-fact-checker-says-republicans-lie-more/

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PolitiFact

[6] https://dukespace.lib.duke.edu/items/8f9a6f3b-efd7-46f3-b4be-49fe0fb8e0c3

[7] https://www.politifact.com/article/2018/nov/06/politifact-not-biased-heres-why/

[8] https://www.politifact.com/article/2018/feb/12/principles-truth-o-meter-politifacts-methodology-i/

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Trump's Word Salad

Here are some examples of Donald Trump's "word salads" or confusing statements:

1. On believing in God:

"They want you to say what they want you, what they want to have you say. And we're not gonna let that happen. You're going to say as you want and you're going to believe, and you're going to believe in God. You're gonna believe in God because God is here and God is watching."

2. On men, women, and religion:

"If you think about it, you have men, you have women, and you have religion. If you look at it, you have more than the men, you have more than the women. You have such power."

3. On cognitive strength and Pennsylvania:

"I almost said the state of Pennsylvania but I said, I meant the Commonwealth, I never said the state, I was able to catch it because I'm cognitively very strong."

4. On Kamala Harris and interviews:

"She had the other interview with the other guy who was a nice guy I think from Philadelphia from Pennsylvania, he was a nice guy, he was asking her all these (scrambles words) – the daily take – they don't take like I do! Anybody wants to go, go what the hell differences they make – they have – and how dishonest was ABC.."

5. On travel bans:

"We would have lost – in fact, Dr. Fauci said we would have lost thousands of additional people if President Trump hadn't done that and I was crowd of one – because even experts didn't want to do it, they thought it was a mistake."

6. On European travel restrictions:

"And then I did Europe when I started seeing what was going on in Italy, and Spain, and France and other countries in Europe, I did, a ban on people coming in from Europe that would have been disastrous for our country also."

These examples showcase Trump's tendency to ramble, use circular logic, or make statements that are difficult to follow or lack clear meaning.

Citations:

[1] https://sg.news.yahoo.com/trump-rambles-way-incoherent-nashville-190751706.html

[2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-rally-crowd-pennsylvania-media-b2617964.html

[3] https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/15/politics/president-donald-trump-rose-garden-speech/index.html

[4] https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics/trump-verbal-slip-ups/index.html

[5] https://www.newsweek.com/obama-trump-word-salad-georgia-harris-rally-1974714

[6] https://www.newsweek.com/barack-obama-donald-trump-word-salads-arizona-1971601

[7] https://dianeravitch.net/2024/09/06/trump-serves-word-salad-when-asked-about-his-plan-to-help-with-cost-of-childcare/

[8] https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/9/8/2268733/-Trump-s-Word-Salads-Three-Served-Raw-without-Editing

Factfinder

@Joeseph

Do you seriously believe Kamal will deliver if elected?

I see your point but at the same time I am concerned she will deliver...to the fringe extremist of her party as she and Biden have already been doing. Throwing the working class average person under the bus repeatedly for her own narcissistic glory. 

It's true Trump could very well do the same but to be honest, at least he has shown he'd preserve the foundation and bedrock of our country, the middle class. If hard decisions must be made then one can at least make them in favor of the people who work to be independent and mind their own business. Over the litany of special narrowly applied projects that tax the middle class and then leaves them completely out on the spending/beneficial end; which itself benefits only a very few who meet arbitrary criteria requirements. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

Kamala Harris is a political whore..she is NOT a "candidate" but an appointed puppet resulting from a Coup by democrat party fascists who have usurped the political process. Kamala has no answers, no solutions, only hate filled rhetoric as her stings are pulled to and fro by the deep state Marxists.

Joeseph

@Factfinder

Yes fair points , the working class always take the brunt , I can see a long line of broken promises if she prevails.

What did you make of that id-ot Hinchcliffes  remark? Talk about kicking your guy in the balls , that's the last thing you need in such a close contest,  newx outlets over here had Trump ahead last week most outlets are now saying Harris by a whisker.

Factfinder

@Joeseph

That was as stoopid as stoopid gets. Trumps people should have vetted his material which makes them stoopid as well. Who knows who will win? I truly think not just the U.S. is better off if Trump wins but the world. Not saying we are the world's moral compass or anything, it's just that the wrong leadership can make us the world's heel.

Dreamer

Politifact is bias but its still credible. I would rather a center bias factchecker, but I can't find one. The point is not whether Kamala lies or not, its that Trump lies way way more.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/politifact/

Factfinder

Dreamer said:

Politifact is bias but its still credible. I would rather a center bias factchecker, but I can't find one. The point is not whether Kamala lies or not, its that Trump lies way way more.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/politifact/

Credible but bias? Wow, I can only shake my head at that one.

Joeseph

@Dreamer ;

So your contention is out of two liars one is a bigger than the other, and you base the way you vote on that?

just_sayin

@Dreamer
Let's take this apart one by one.

1) The problem is under funded public schools and redlining. Schools are funded locally and low income house holds are clumped together meaning a school in that district will be underfunded. The opposite is also true high income households are also squeezed together and over funded. The solution is federal school tax in lieu of local and redistribute the wealth sort of like federal income taxes.

I agree with you that red-lining hurt a lot of minority families and that it has cascading impacts even today.  However, if is a falsehood to say that inner city schools get less money than schools in influent neighborhoods.  That stopped in the 80's.  This myth persists because people do not include all funding sources - federal money pours into failing minority schools and actually results, when all funding sources are included.  The Department of Education says they get about 2% more on average.  Let's ask Jules favorite AI and see if that is right:

Based on the information provided in the search results, it appears that on average, low-performing minority schools in urban areas often do receive more per-student funding than neighboring more affluent school systems when all funding sources are included. However, the situation can vary depending on the specific metropolitan area and funding sources examined. Here are some key points:

1. Higher funding for urban districts: Several sources indicate that large urban districts, which often have higher concentrations of low-income and minority students, frequently receive more per-pupil funding than the statewide average or neighboring suburban districts:

   - In Michigan, large urban districts like Benton Harbor, Flint, Detroit, and Saginaw all received significantly more per-student funding than the statewide average in 2022-23.

   - Federal funds are generally targeted to low-income areas to compensate for additional challenges faced by schools in those areas.

2. Variation across metro areas: The GAO report found that differences in per-pupil spending between inner city and suburban schools varied across metropolitan areas:

   - Inner city schools generally spent more per pupil in Boston, Chicago, and St. Louis.

   - Suburban schools spent more in Fort Worth and New York.

   - Results were mixed in Denver and Oakland.

3. Funding sources: The higher funding for urban districts often comes from:

   - Larger federal grants targeted at poorer and urban districts

   - State funding formulas that provide more money to districts receiving less from local property taxes

   - Additional state programs for schools in poor or rural areas

4. Recent trends: COVID-19 relief funding disproportionately benefited urban districts in poor areas. For example, in Michigan, Flint Community Schools received $51,192 per student in COVID relief - the highest in the state.

5. Challenges despite funding: Despite often receiving more funding, urban districts with high concentrations of low-income families frequently face greater challenges and may still struggle with performance.

6. Charter school exception: Urban charter schools often receive less funding than traditional public schools in the same areas.

In conclusion, while there are exceptions and variations, the overall trend suggests that when all funding sources are included, low-performing minority schools in urban areas often do receive more per-student funding than neighboring more affluent school systems. However, this higher funding does not always translate to better educational outcomes due to the additional challenges these schools face.

Citations:

[1] https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-03-234-highlights.pdf

[2] https://www.mackinac.org/blog/2024/are-poor-urban-districts-really-underfunded

[3] https://www.hopskipdrive.com/blog/the-differences-in-education-and-transportation-in-urban-vs-rural-areas

[4] https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/pupil-spending-differences-between-selected-inner-city-and-suburban-schools

[5] https://apps.urban.org/features/school-funding-trends/

[6] https://www.cgcs.org/cms/lib/DC00001581/Centricity/domain/35/publication docs/NYCAdequateFinanceReport.pdf

[7] https://nces.ed.gov/pubs98/ballou.pdf

[8] https://apps.urban.org/features/school-funding-do-poor-kids-get-fair-share/

What do you know, another racist trope down the drain.

Again, voucher schools, which are private schools, and charter schools, which are public schools, get much better results in minority urban areas on average than public schools.  Voucher schools on average get about half of what public schools do (according to EdChoice's annual review of all voucher studies).  And Charter schools get about 2/3rds to 80% the money per student.  These schools are in the same neighborhoods and take the same type of kids, yet have much better results.  Let's ask Jules favorite AI to valid that claim:

Based on the search results provided, here's a summary addressing your questions:

1. Charter school funding compared to public schools in minority urban districts:

- Charter schools typically receive less funding per student than traditional public schools in the same areas.

- Nationwide, on average, charter schools receive 20% less per-pupil funding than their district counterparts, and in some cases as much as 60% less.

- A 2020 University of Arkansas study found that charter schools in 18 cities studied receive an average 33% less total annual funding than district schools.

- In some specific cases, the funding gap is even larger. For example, in Camden, NJ, charter schools receive less than half the per-pupil funding of traditional public schools.

2. Charter school performance:

- Despite receiving less funding, many charter schools appear to outperform nearby traditional public schools, especially for disadvantaged students.

- In Chicago, 47% of the city's 58 top-rated, high-need schools (with more than 90% minority and 90% low-income students) are public charters.

- Studies in various cities (e.g., Camden, Indianapolis, Chicago) show charter schools often achieving similar or better academic growth compared to traditional public schools, particularly for minority and low-income students.

3. Voucher amounts compared to public school costs:

The search results don't provide specific information about the average difference between voucher amounts and total public school costs across all funding sources. However, they do mention that:

- According to EdChoice, the average voucher value for the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship Program is about $10,300, which is about 44% of the average expenditure per student at D.C.'s district schools.

It's important to note that voucher amounts and public school costs can vary significantly by location, and the information provided doesn't give a comprehensive national average.

In conclusion, the available information supports the claim that charter schools in minority urban districts often receive less funding per student than traditional public schools while frequently producing comparable or better results. However, the search results don't provide enough information to make a definitive statement about the average difference between voucher amounts and total public school costs nationwide.

Citations:

[1] https://edreform.com/2021/03/just-the-faqs-charter-schools/

[2] https://www.realcleareducation.com/articles/2023/09/08/why_are_we_cheating_public_charter_schools_out_of_funding_978203.html

[3] https://www.mackinac.org/blog/2024/are-poor-urban-districts-really-underfunded

[4] https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/research/think-again-do-charter-schools-drain-resources-traditional-public-schools

[5] https://www.hoover.org/research/expand-school-choice-and-provide-fiscal-relief-districts

[6] https://kypolicy.org/the-impact-of-diverting-public-money-to-private-school-vouchers-in-kentucky/

[7] https://www.hopskipdrive.com/blog/the-differences-in-education-and-transportation-in-urban-vs-rural-areas

[8] https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/charter-schools-find-quiet-support-in-a-world-focused-on-private-school-choice/2023/08

So, another racist trop destroyed.  Charter schools and voucher schools on average get less money per child, but produce better results.  So the issue is not funding.

But lets assume the fake facts that you presented were true.  Most failing urban schools have been failing for well over 50 years.  How long does a poor Black child have to remain in a bad school?  According to the racist Kamala Harris policy - forever.  Instead, she needs a good education NOW.  Go ahead and try and fix the public schools.  No one is stopping you.  But don't keep poor Black children trapped in schools that you know are bad and have been bad for 50 plus years.  Now use your brain, Dreamer.  Why should a poor Black child be forced to go to a bad public school, when a cheaper, better option like a voucher school is available?  Only those who primary interests are not about the child's interests would say 'chain her to the bad school' as Harris has done.

Affirmative action seeks to promote racial equity and address past injustices, intent matters.

I am sure that you believe that the racism that you support is good and holy racism.  It probably bothers you that I would even call it racism, but it is.  It is morally wrong to discriminate against someone based on their color of their skin.  Non-racists can affirm that last sentence.  Kamala Harris can not.  She believes that it is OK to punish Asians and whites today for the sin of being Asian and white.  She somehow believes they must pay for the sins of past people.  We are each responsible for our own conduct.  What you support is unjust and immoral.  Further, it not only discriminates against whites and Asians, it harms Black students.  Placing a Black student in a university program that a white or Asian would not qualify for, sets up that student for an increased likelihood of failure.  That is why Black students are twice as likely to drop out of school and twice as likely to switch from STEM programs to lesser paying degree programs.  There is a reason why HBCUs are only 3 percent of Black students in the US, but produce 25% of African American graduates with STEM degrees.  In engineering specifically, 40% of all African-American engineers received their degrees from HBCUs.  A reason for their success is that they don't have affirmative action programs for Black students.  When a student is placed in a program he is able to meet the academic rigor of, he can excel.  Your support of a racist policy hurts everyone, even the ones you claim to be helping.  Racism is the problem, not the solution, Dreamer.  Renounce your support of a racist policy and become part of the solution.

I'll talk with you later about the other points.  I hope you will consider repenting of the racist policies that you support.  I am sure that you have been lead to believe that they are virtuous, but the truth is they are racist and harm people.

just_sayin

@Dreamer
I assume you are addressing undocumented immigrants also known as undocumented citizens. First, some of these undocumented are naturalized they have been born in the US but lack the paperwork. Second, somebody has to buy the goods and services Black workers produce and the undocumented add to the economy by buying. Just_Sayin only looks at one side of the equation w/o evidence.

"multiple studies have found that immigrants help the economy grow."

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/making-sense/4-myths-about-how-immigrants-affect-the-u-s-economy

No I do not mean 'undocumented' - that sounds like a paper snafu.  Instead I refer to people who entered the country illegally.  It is incorrect to use the term 'citizen' in any form to describe them, because they are in the country ILLEGALLY.  You seem to want to ignore this issue.  

Obama's US Comimssion on Civil Rights, in The Impact of Illegal Immigration on the Wages and Employment Opportunities of Black Workers estimated a reduction of wages from between $1,000 - $2,000 for the average Black worker.  Does that seem fair and just to you?

Why is it,  that a common theme with all of the racist policies that you support, is you dismiss the harm and suffering they do to others?  just sayin

 I am already tired:

Defending racist policies will do that to you.    

Rather than supporting the commission of crimes like entering the country illegally, or obtaining an illegal SS card or illegal green card and then committing fraud, forgery, or perjury when using those IDs to rent an apartment, open a bank account, buy a car, etc.  Why not acknowledge that criminal behavior is wrong and work to increase legal immigration?  just sayin - You don't have to support racism and crime like Kamala Harris, you can choose to be a moral person.

Dreamer

just_saying

I don't have the energy nor time for a full debate. I've found multiple sources that say the opposite of what you are saying.

https://hechingerreport.org/opinion-why-are-schools-that-predominately-serve-black-and-brown-students-consistently-underfunded/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/black-school-districts-funding-state-budgets-students-impact/

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/26/696794821/why-white-school-districts-have-so-much-more-money

They are mainstream media. I get in trouble with this with other liberals, in the sense that each of us has sources saying they are correct and the other is wrong and neither one of us is budging or trying very hard to figure out who is right and who is incorrect.

They just want me to accept they are right and are frustrated when I don't instantly agree or understand why their sources are supposedly superior. Some people would blame the Internet that both parties can use confirmation bias to quickly fetch search results.

Resolving these differences takes time and energy on the part of both parties. Often a moderator or arbiter of some kind is needed as a tie breaker since one party takes too long to concede they are incorrect and help explain why one side is correct and the other isn't.

 It takes a long time to check the credibility of authors, websites, and to find the logical flaws. This is part of the reason debate isn't the best format for learning. Especially when there is a political divide, each side tends to bunker down into politically divided war-camps and not give any ground.

Ultimately, I tend to hide from other liberals often because I am unwilling to take the time and energy to learn, quoting authors and sources I shouldn't because I don't expend enough energy researching the source. Other liberals often lose patience with me which is why I often spend my time reading books and articles rather than talking to others.

I'll give an example I used to post to a website funded by the Koch Brothers, whoops.

 If other liberals have little patience for me, I can only guess they would have nil patience for you.

This is my long winded way of saying I don't think we are going to resolve this anytime soon and this may not be the best use of my time.

"Public schools are primarily funded by local and state sources" NPR

"Cracked walls, mold, sewage backups, even the risk of electric shock. That's what students at Druid Hills High School" cbs

"On the whole, non-white school districts receive $23 billion less than white school districts, despite serving the same number of students." hechingerreport

just_sayin

@Dreamer

I don't have the energy nor time for a full debate. I've found multiple sources that say the opposite of what you are saying.

https://hechingerreport.org/opinion-why-are-schools-that-predominately-serve-black-and-brown-students-consistently-underfunded/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/black-school-districts-funding-state-budgets-students-impact/

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/26/696794821/why-white-school-districts-have-so-much-more-money

I think you truly want the best for kids.  The CBS report is not about total funding but how it is allocated - specifically building allocation funds use.  That's a local issue - not an overall funding disparity issue.  The NPR report is only focused on state funds - not all funding sources.  The Hechingerreport is also only talking about state funding, not all funding sources.

The Hechingerreport's author is from Chicago and claims a huge disparity in Black and white student spending.  This is a lie if all income sources are included.  From Jules Favorite AI:

Based on the information provided in the search results, it appears that schools serving higher percentages of low-income and minority students in Chicago Public Schools (CPS) are receiving more funding per student than schools with lower percentages of such students when all funding sources are considered. Here are the key points:

1. According to the Chicago Fed analysis (source [5]):

   - By 2018-19, schools in the highest Free and Reduced Lunch (FRL) eligibility bin (indicating higher poverty) were spending about $1,500 more per pupil than schools in the lowest FRL eligibility bin.

   

   - This gap widened further in 2018-19 due to equity grants awarded to schools with low total enrollment, most of which are in the highest FRL-eligibility bin.

   - Title I funding and supplemental state grants contributed between $1,200 and $1,500 per pupil to the gap in spending between high- and low-FRL eligibility schools.

2. The study found that the switch to Student-Based Budgeting (SBB) resulted in greater equity in school funding, with relatively more funds being directed toward schools serving higher shares of low-income students.

3. However, it's important to note that schools in wealthier areas tend to have higher "school special income" funds, which partially offset the additional funding received by high-poverty schools. The per-pupil gap in special income funds grew from -$240 in 2013-14 to -$387 in 2018-19.

4. The analysis shows that CPS was successful at directing relatively more funding toward schools with the highest shares of FRL-eligible students, particularly in later school years.

While the search results don't provide an exact dollar figure for the difference in per-student spending between poor minority urban school districts and white districts in Chicago, they do indicate that when all funding sources are included, schools serving higher percentages of low-income and minority students are receiving more funding per student. The gap appears to be around $1,500 per student or more as of 2018-19, with this difference increasing over time.

Citations:

[1] https://www.roosevelt.edu/stories/news/chicago-public-schools-budgeting-concentrates-underfunded-schools-black-neighborhoods

[2] https://news.wttw.com/2024/05/07/chicago-public-schools-ceo-says-district-underfunded-needs-more-money-state

[3] https://abc7chicago.com/post/chicago-public-schools-releases-year-plan-close-equity-gap-called-together-rise-covid-funding-dries/15312021/

[4] https://www.chalkbeat.org/chicago/2024/10/29/cps-turmoil-is-linked-to-budget-problems-end-of-federal-covid-relief/

[5] https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/blogs/chicago-fed-insights/2023/student-based-budgeting-chicago-public-schools

[6] https://www.chalkbeat.org/chicago/2024/03/21/chicago-public-schools-ending-student-based-budgeting/

[7] https://www.illinoispolicy.org/how-did-chicago-public-schools-create-a-money-mess-even-before-chicago-teachers-union-demands/

[8] https://www.chalkbeat.org/newyork/2023/3/29/23660678/nyc-schools-title-i-poverty-calculation-funding-budget/

When you see these articles with political agendas, they will often omit funding sources - such as federal funds.  Be aware of the shell game being played.  

From Urban Institute: Considering federal, state, and local funding, almost all states allocate more per-student funding to poor kids than to nonpoor kids, 

Again from Urban Institute: In most states, Black students tend to experience higher school-level spending, on average, than white students.... Federal dollars also play an important role, increasing spending for Black students within nearly every state...On average, students from households earning below the federal poverty level and students of color receive 1 to 2 percent more school-level per pupil funding than their counterparts in the same district (Shores and Ejdemyr 2017)

The Urban Institute is an ultra-leftist organization.

Funding disparities may exist in some local areas, when considering all fund source, but not overall at state or national levels.  That's a myth intentionally perpetuated, but hasn't been true since the 80's according to Urban Institute - which by the way is arguing for even more funding.  

Even if funding were the issue, it would not explain how charter and private schools which get substantially less money per student and are present in the same neighborhoods, do so much better.  Voucher schools and charter schools will often have greater percentages of minority and poor children than neighboring public schools, such as in NYC, but produce better results.  Yet, NYC is actively trying to get rid of charter schools and voucher schools, reducing funding to them, and restricting what property they can buy and rent.  You see the issue isn't about getting better results, its about making teacher unions happy to NYC officials.  

According to EducationNext the vast majority of studies show that most voucher students are poor and minority.  

Most poor urban minority school districts have had failing schools for 50 years or more.  Every election Democrats, who run these school boards and are elected to most local elected positions, will claim 'just give us 10 years and a lot more money and we will fix our schools'.  Then in 10 years they say 'we still need more money, give us 10 years and will fix our schools'.  They have done this for well more than half a century, yet the schools are still bad.  Just how long does a poor Black child have to wait to get a good education?  My response, is she shouldn't have to wait, and if a good voucher school is available, she should be given that opportunity now.  To say otherwise is to sentence her to a bad education.  

Bogan

Dreamer

@just_sayin

Even if what you are saying is true that if we take into account all funding sources more money is allocated to poor students than non-poor there are still disadvantages to being poor. For example poor children don't have access to summer camp, expensive private tutors, and are dependent on school lunches.

More income would help these under-served communities. Again, charter schools just muddy the waters. 

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

Even if what you are saying is true that if we take into account all funding sources more money is allocated to poor students than non-poor there are still disadvantages to being poor. For example poor children don't have access to summer camp, expensive private tutors, and are dependent on school lunches.

More income would help these under-served communities. Again, charter schools just muddy the waters. 

Charter schools don't muddy the waters they put a spotlight on the issues.  Charter schools are public schools, but they have the ability to fire bad teachers and make changes quickly, which the bureaucracy in the normal public school system prohibits.  Since charter schools produce better results with significantly less money than the public schools do, it highlights that some of the problem of bad schools, are bad teachers, and bad methods and the bureaucracy of the public schools.  

Many of the worst school systems in the US spend tons per student and are still bad schools:  From Jules favorite AI:

Based on the search results and additional research, here is the information on per-student costs and grade level performance for the requested school districts:

1. Baltimore, MD:

- Cost per student: $22,424 per year

- Students on grade level: Exact percentage not provided, but 65% of schools received the lowest 1-2 star ratings from the state, indicating poor performance.

2. Washington DC:

- Cost per student: $22,406 per year

- Students on grade level: 31% in reading, 23% in math (2022 data)

3. Detroit, Michigan:

- Cost per student: $15,656 per year

- Students on grade level: 6% in reading, 4% in math (2022 data)

4. Chicago, Illinois:

- Cost per student: $17,741 per year

- Students on grade level: 20.8% in reading, 15.6% in math (2022 data)

5. New York City:

- Cost per student: $28,828 per year

- Students on grade level: 49% in reading, 38% in math (2022 data)

6. San Francisco:

- Cost per student: $20,576 per year

- Students on grade level: 47% in reading, 40% in math (2022 data)

Please note that the "on grade level" percentages are typically based on state standardized test scores and may vary slightly depending on the specific metrics used. The cost per student figures can also vary based on the source and specific inclusions in the calculations. These numbers provide a general comparison but may not be directly equivalent across all districts due to differences in reporting methods.

Citations:

[1] https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/maryland/districts/baltimore-city-public-schools-107947

[2] https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/in-baltimore-city-65-of-public-schools-earn-lowest-possible-scores-on-maryland-report-card

[3] https://dls.maryland.gov/pubs/prod/NoPblTabPDF/2024PubSchoolFundingFY24PerPupil.pdf

[4] https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/about/Documents/DBS/SFD/2021-2022/SelectedFinancialDataMarylandPublicSchools2021-2022Part3.pdf

[5] https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/about/Documents/DBS/SFD/2020-2021/SelectedFinancialDataMarylandPublicSchools2020-2021Part3.pdf

[6] https://dls.maryland.gov/pubs/prod/NoPblTabPDF/2024PubSchoolFundingFY23PerPupil.pdf

[7] https://www.reddit.com/r/maryland/comments/113zo5j/this_school_district_in_indiana_spends_103k_per/

[8] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3393008/

Some of those numbers are low on the amounts spent, because they did not include federal money.  For instance, DC, is heavily supplemented by the federal government and the correct number is closer to $30,000 per student.  Perplexity.AI was kind on its evaluations also.  For example, 1/2 of all high schools in Baltimore have, pay attention now, 0 students on grade level in them.  Yes, I wrote that correctly.  

Seriously, how long do you think it will take to make those schools good schools?  Is it OK to force a poor Black child to wait until Democrats get their crap together?  I don't think so.  Kids need a good education now - not when Democrats can get around to it.  

Bogan

@Dreamer ;   More income would help these under-served communities. Again, charter schools just muddy the waters. 

Charter schools are not in the interest of the public service unions, so the left will always oppose private schools to buy the teacher's union vote.       The fact that so many public schools do so poorly academically, , while private schools do so well, is another factor the teacher's unions do not want the public to think about.      To think about this inconvenient truth might make the public realise that the public service are just a bunch of self seeking shiny arsed ideologues, instead of real teachers.  And the Left depends upon the teachers unions to brainwash the kids into accepting any crazy ideas that the Left finds it profitable for their caste to propagate.    So, the socialist Left will always support the public schools.  The Socialist Left and the teacher's unions scratch each other's backs.   

Dreamer

I still think your missing the point about school funding. That being poor adds all sorts of stress and risk. I wonder how much of that school funding is going into free breakfast and lunch for poor kids? I don't think just looking at the numbers tells the entire story. 

I did miss something, Trump not only gutted the pandemic monitoring system but the vaccine monitoring system too.

"Trump gutted the National Vaccine Program Office

It was with dismay that I read a story in The New York Times on Friday by Carl Zimmer reporting that last year the Trump Administration shut down a key office responsible for coordinating government programs monitoring vaccine safety and folded it into an office focused on infectious diseases."

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccine-safety-monitoring-in-an-age-of-pandemic/

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-fire-pandemic-team/

As well as new anti-vaxx rhetoric and his alliance with RFK jr.

"Trump vows to defund schools requiring vaccines"

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/trump-vows-to-defund-schools-requiring-vaccines-for-students-if-hes-reelected

Trump stance on vaccines is rubbish he is a menace to public health.

marke

@Dreamer
One Wolder fascists at the WEF are using the bogus science of global warming to undermine the freedom and prosperity of Americans.  Don't buy into their demonic garbage.

Dreamer

@marke

There is a 97% scientific consensus on climate change.

marke

@Dreamer

Harris lies all the time and yet democrats cannot detect that.

marke

@Dreamer

Leftist liars back up their lies with other lies by those who lie for a living and out of habit.

marke

@Dreamer ;
There is a 97% scientific consensus on climate change.

100% of those who unwisely believe climate change hype agree among themselves that climate change is real, is something caused by humans, and something that humans need to spend trillions of dollars fixing.

Dreamer

@marke

Temperatures continue to rise, the oceans acidify, climate change is an urgent matter.

marke

@Dreamer

Climate change is a hoax, now being used by world leaders and planners to advocate robbing US taxpayers of trillions of dollars to be redistributed to greedy freeloaders around the world.

Dreamer

@marke

To believe what you believe about climate change in nearly 2025 requires tin foil hat level of conspiratorial thinking. Yes, many of the specific future predictions didn't come true, but that is difficult for even experts. Many experts failed to predict the 2008 great recession.

Yet, the overall trend that the planet is warming and polar ice is vanishing is true.

"Antarctica is losing land ice at an accelerating rate and that has serious implications for sea level rise."

https://skepticalscience.com/antarctica-gaining-ice.htm
By focusing on select predictions that failed to come true and ignoring the overall trend you are using a cherry picking fallacy.

marke

@Dreamer

UN Says Melting Arctic Ice is a Key Indicator of Climate Change—But It’s Not Melting | The Epoch Times  2-5-24

UN Says Melting Arctic Ice is a Key Indicator of Climate Change—But It’s Not Melting

Dreamer

The Epoch times is a questionable source.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-epoch-times/

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

The Epoch times is a questionable source.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-epoch-times/

The Epoch Times is indeed a questionable source - its owned by the Moonies.  But know that NBC/MSNBC was just outed for having one of its news interviewers paid by the Harris campaign to give a friendly interview a half a million dollars.  

Al Sharpton’s acceptance of Kamala Harris campaign’s $500K donation a ‘bridge too far’ for MSNBC colleagues

To be honest I just thought all those leftist 'news' groups gave favorable coverage to Democrats for free.

Dreamer

@just_sayin

I wouldn't know how bad this is, Harris lost anyways so its kind of moot. I'm surprised she needed 500k like you to get an interview.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/politics/government/church-turns-on-msnbc-host-al-sharpton-over-500-000-in-payments-from-harris-campaign/ar-AA1vkQJS

Thanks for supporting me and saying the epoch times is a questionable source.

Bogan

@Dreamer ;    To believe what you believe about climate change in nearly 2025 requires tin foil hat level of conspiratorial thinking.

Deniers can say the same thing about Alarmists.  

Dreamer quote      Yes, many of the specific future predictions didn't come true, but that is difficult for even experts. Many experts failed to predict the 2008 great recession.

If a bunch of climate scientists, who have been hopelessly wrong previously about global cooling in the 70's, make all sorts of "end of times" claims based upon their supposed "expert" knowledge, which never eventuate, a reasonable person could conclude that they do not have a clue what they are talking about.     A person with a nasty, suspicious mind like myself can also see a lot of self interest by those Alarmists, and conclude that self interest is one of the the primary drivers of Alarmism.  

marke

@MayCaesar

Kamala lacks the character and abilities most reasonable people desire in good leaders.