Is it right to force religion onto children?

Factfinder

@Foxtrot22024

I hear what you're saying I really do. But parents will teach their children as they see fit as they are raising them. If you're suggesting the state step in and raise the children or interfere with the parents raising them then no, I can't go that far. People still have their rights. And government involvement isn't always the answer. But I sympathize, religious parents can be abusive.

Foxtrot22024

I completely agree with you, the government should not interfere with parents and their child (unless there in solid evidence the child is being abused). I didn't mean to make it sound like that, that was a fallacy on my part. The point I was trying to make was, it isn't right to accuse other groups of behavior that they call grooming (it's not grooming) when pretty much everyone is trying to educate children about certain ideas, whether it be religion, sexuality, politics (both sides), racism, etc. Thanks for hearing me out.

Dreamer

Personally, I really dislike religion but when asked why the answer is elusive. I've learned that not all religions and denominations are the same. So, to answer your question, it depends upon the religion.

Some religions are very light handed like pastafarianism and no there's nothing wrong with that. Others are very heavy handed and a high control and lead to trauma. Think Shiny Happy People and the Duggars. Note, there are ideologies that are high control that lead to trauma just like high control religions.

High control religion = immoral.

low control = just fine.

Joeseph

Religion mostly  only works through indoctrination which requires you get them young , I actually think telling children they are sinners , unclean or Hell bound unless they accept Jesus as there saviour is child abuse , the amount of damage this  has done and is doing worldwide is incalculable.

I also think in 50 years or so people will scratch their heads and wonder how we accepted this primitive superstitious gibberish.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hey Joe.

@Joeseph

Here Here.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hey Joe

@Joeseph

Though globally I think that Islam and others will take longer than 50 years to debunk.

Joeseph

@Fredsnephew


Fair point I agree Islam is where Christianity was at 100 years ago.

Heusmans

Argument Topic: Question leaves far too much open

The question is flawed as it exists. Several of the words need to be definitionally fine tuned (right, force, religion, children.) 

just_sayin

Let's ask Jules favorite AI if there are any benefits for raising a child with religious beliefs:

Based on the search results provided, children who regularly attend religious services appear to have several advantages compared to those who don't, including:

Physical/Health Benefits:

1. Better overall health and longer lifespans (up to 7 years longer on average)

2. Lower rates of drug and alcohol abuse

3. Lower likelihood of engaging in risky sexual behaviors at a young age

4. Decreased risk of sexually transmitted diseases

Mental/Emotional Benefits:

1. Higher levels of happiness and life satisfaction

2. Better mental health outcomes

3. Increased self-esteem

4. Decreased risk of depression

5. Greater sense of meaning in life

Social Benefits:

1. Stronger social relationships and support networks

2. More numerous friendships

3. Healthier marriages later in life

4. Connections across multiple generations

5. Development of a strong sense of identity

6. Increased likelihood of volunteering (29% more likely)

Educational Benefits:

1. Better academic performance and higher grades

2. Improved discipline and study habits

3. Enhanced critical thinking skills from engaging with philosophical and moral questions

Financial/Career Benefits:

1. Increased ability to overcome poverty

2. Access to diverse social networks that can provide career opportunities

Behavioral Benefits:

1. Lower rates of crime and delinquency

2. Higher rates of civic engagement

3. Development of self-control and delayed gratification

4. Increased likelihood of following moral and ethical guidelines

Family Benefits:

1. Stronger family relationships

2. More open communication with parents

3. Lower likelihood of divorce later in life

Spiritual/Moral Benefits:

1. Development of a moral framework and values

2. Opportunities for spiritual growth and understanding

3. Exposure to religious teachings and practices

It's important to note that these advantages are based on statistical correlations and may not apply to every individual. Additionally, the quality of the religious community and family environment plays a significant role in realizing these benefits.

Citations:

[1] https://www.deseret.com/2018/9/25/20654278/these-religious-practices-by-kids-are-linked-to-better-well-being-as-young-adults/

[2] https://www.parentingwithfocus.org/post/10-reasons-why-you-should-take-your-kids-to-church

[3] https://diariesofadaughter.com/2023/01/03/big-church-should-be-for-kids-too-benefits-for-children-joining-us-in-the-worship-service/

[4] https://vision.org.au/articles/the-importance-of-church-for-kids/

[5] https://www.covenantchristian.net/blog/why-you-should-take-your-kids-to-church

[6] https://www.livingout.org/resources/articles/89/a-christian-perspective-on-lgbtq-mental-health

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

[8] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-022-10050-2

So it appears from Jules' favorite AI, that raising a child to be religious will not only benefit them in having a relationship with God, it will lengthen their life, help them get better grades, have more friends, have stronger marriages, and be more likely to help others.

I guess that means that raising your child to be an atheist will make him die younger, go to jail and kill people, be poorer, have less friends, have weaker morals, get poorer grades, have weaker family relationships, and be more selfish and less likely to help others.

Seems like the argument is over. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Foxtrot22024 ; The father of the family is responsible for the spiritual rearing of his children and said father will be held accountable in Eternity for what he has done with the children entrusted to him by our Creator.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Let's ask Jules favorite AI if there are any benefits for raising a child with religious beliefs:

Based on the search results provided, children who regularly attend religious services appear to have several advantages compared to those who don't, including:

Physical/Health Benefits:

1. Better overall health and longer lifespans (up to 7 years longer on average)

2. Lower rates of drug and alcohol abuse

3. Lower likelihood of engaging in risky sexual behaviors at a young age

4. Decreased risk of sexually transmitted diseases

Mental/Emotional Benefits:

1. Higher levels of happiness and life satisfaction

2. Better mental health outcomes

3. Increased self-esteem

4. Decreased risk of depression

5. Greater sense of meaning in life

Social Benefits:

1. Stronger social relationships and support networks

2. More numerous friendships

3. Healthier marriages later in life

4. Connections across multiple generations

5. Development of a strong sense of identity

6. Increased likelihood of volunteering (29% more likely)

Educational Benefits:

1. Better academic performance and higher grades

2. Improved discipline and study habits

3. Enhanced critical thinking skills from engaging with philosophical and moral questions

Financial/Career Benefits:

1. Increased ability to overcome poverty

2. Access to diverse social networks that can provide career opportunities

Behavioral Benefits:

1. Lower rates of crime and delinquency

2. Higher rates of civic engagement

3. Development of self-control and delayed gratification

4. Increased likelihood of following moral and ethical guidelines

Family Benefits:

1. Stronger family relationships

2. More open communication with parents

3. Lower likelihood of divorce later in life

Spiritual/Moral Benefits:

1. Development of a moral framework and values

2. Opportunities for spiritual growth and understanding

3. Exposure to religious teachings and practices

It's important to note that these advantages are based on statistical correlations and may not apply to every individual. Additionally, the quality of the religious community and family environment plays a significant role in realizing these benefits.

Citations:

[1] https://www.deseret.com/2018/9/25/20654278/these-religious-practices-by-kids-are-linked-to-better-well-being-as-young-adults/

[2] https://www.parentingwithfocus.org/post/10-reasons-why-you-should-take-your-kids-to-church

[3] https://diariesofadaughter.com/2023/01/03/big-church-should-be-for-kids-too-benefits-for-children-joining-us-in-the-worship-service/

[4] https://vision.org.au/articles/the-importance-of-church-for-kids/

[5] https://www.covenantchristian.net/blog/why-you-should-take-your-kids-to-church

[6] https://www.livingout.org/resources/articles/89/a-christian-perspective-on-lgbtq-mental-health

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

[8] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-022-10050-2

So it appears from Jules' favorite AI, that raising a child to be religious will not only benefit them in having a relationship with God, it will lengthen their life, help them get better grades, have more friends, have stronger marriages, and be more likely to help others.

I guess that means that raising your child to be an atheist will make him die younger, go to jail and kill people, be poorer, have less friends, have weaker morals, get poorer grades, have weaker family relationships, and be more selfish and less likely to help others.

Seems like the argument is over. 

But as usual you're not responding to the OP who's question was "Is it right to force religion onto children"? So you answered you're own strawman question to your AI instead. So duh, yeah there are benefits to gathering socially for a religious event as we are a social species by nature. And of course you don't understand the implication of your own AI mouth piece due in part to your inability articulate a word view in your own words. None of the benefits listed are exclusive to only religious upbringings. What your source (of which several citing's were religious) emphasized are evolutionary traits humans have as a social species. We by nature will always do better when we are a part of society because of our early tribalism. Wilder beasts are social animals and they are stronger in numbers in every aspect of theirs live only they never go to church, lol. That's why loner high school kids will join the chess club or something during their high school years. That's why say some stay at home moms gather with others who are housewives forming playdates or book clubs. Gangs in our inner cities, all these things and plenty more accomplish the same since of belonging, purpose, the lifting of spirits, companionships, galvanizing causes or ideas, a consensus of moral rights and wrongs... None of these require religious concepts to improve the lives of participating individuals in all ways where the people are at presently in their lives. In short, your whole cut in paste argument can legitimately be made for socialism with the same conviction. 

Honestly, you need to try and see that people are coming from their perspective because the truth is, and this goes for everybody, people in general are already more familiar with what you think than you are with what they think. Of course this would mean you need to engage them in their words, and not what you assign to them as their perspective then attacking your own diagnosis of them in place of understanding what they're saying and where they're coming from. Anyone who's had their autonomy preserved knows exactly what I'm talking about.

Foxtrot22024

@Heusmans, IDK how to word things properly lol. Mostly asked the question because I was kicked out of bible school as a child because I didn't agree with their values.

just_sayin

@Factfinder
But as usual you're not responding to the OP who's question was "Is it right to force religion onto children"? So you answered you're own strawman question to your AI instead. So duh, yeah there are benefits to gathering socially for a religious event as we are a social species by nature. And of course you don't understand the implication of your own AI mouth piece due in part to your inability articulate a word view in your own words. None of the benefits listed are exclusive to only religious upbringings. What your source (of which several citing's were religious) emphasized are evolutionary traits humans have as a social species. We by nature will always do better when we are a part of society because of our early tribalism. Wilder beasts are social animals and they are stronger in numbers in every aspect of theirs live only they never go to church, lol. That's why loner high school kids will join the chess club or something during their high school years. That's why say some stay at home moms gather with others who are housewives forming playdates or book clubs. Gangs in our inner cities, all these things and plenty more accomplish the same since of belonging, purpose, the lifting of spirits, companionships, galvanizing causes or ideas, a consensus of moral rights and wrongs... None of these require religious concepts to improve the lives of participating individuals in all ways where the people are at presently in their lives. In short, your whole cut in paste argument can legitimately be made for socialism with the same conviction. 

Honestly, you need to try and see that people are coming from their perspective because the truth is, and this goes for everybody, people in general are already more familiar with what you think than you are with what they think. Of course this would mean you need to engage them in their words, and not what you assign to them as their perspective then attacking your own diagnosis of them in place of understanding what they're saying and where they're coming from. Anyone who's had their autonomy preserved knows exactly what I'm talking about.

Deacon, there is a wealth of peer reviewed studies that show there are many health, social, economic, educational, financial, as well as spiritual benefits from religious devotion and participation.  Let's ask Jules AI for only peer reviewed sources to confirm:

Based on the peer-reviewed sources provided, there is substantial evidence that religious devotion and participation are associated with various benefits across multiple domains:

Social Benefits:

1. Religious people report receiving more social and expressive support, especially women who regularly attend church (Source 3).

2. Religion provides emotional and social support (Source 1).

Mental Health Benefits:

1. Religious people have better mental health and ability to adapt to stress (Source 1).

2. They have lower levels of depression and depressive symptoms (Source 1).

3. Religion is associated with greater well-being, hope, optimism, purpose, and life meaning (Source 1).

4. It helps decrease depression, anxiety, and stress (Source 3).

5. Religious beliefs and practices tend to rationalize suffering, reduce stress, and contribute to avoiding depression (Source 3).

Physical Health Benefits:

1. Religious people are generally healthier and require less access to health services (Source 1).

2. Regular church attendance is associated with lower blood pressure (Source 3).

3. Religious practice increases longevity (Source 6).

4. It's associated with better physical health outcomes (Source 3).

Educational Benefits:

While not explicitly mentioned in the provided sources, Source 6 indicates that religious practice has beneficial effects across multiple domains, which may include education.

Spiritual Benefits:

1. Religion provides a sense of meaning and purpose (Source 2).

2. It's associated with greater spiritual well-being (Source 1, 3).

Financial Benefits:

While not directly addressed in the provided sources, Source 6 suggests that religious practice has wide-ranging beneficial effects, which could potentially include financial aspects.

Additional Benefits:

1. Lower suicide rates and less substance abuse (Source 1).

2. Greater marital satisfaction (Source 1).

3. Increased capacity for forgiveness (Source 3).

4. Promotion of prosocial values (Source 1).

It's important to note that Source 5 suggests the relationship between religiosity and well-being may be more complex, with benefits primarily accruing to fervent believers, while those with weaker beliefs may actually report lower happiness than non-believers.

Overall, the majority of studies (81% according to Source 6) show positive benefits of religious practice across various domains of life.

Citations:

[1] https://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1296&context=ojot

[2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6445895/

[3] https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1135263.pdf

[4] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0280775

[5] https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=40219

[6] https://www.heritage.org/civil-society/report/why-religion-matters-the-impact-religious-practice-social-stability

[7] https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6279&context=facpub

[8] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9994730/ ;

I would think that a primary reason that people talk to their child about God, or have them participate in religious services, or activities is because they want their child to have a relationship with God. As someone who is an atheist you may not appreciate this desire. And if it is your kid, I'm sure you would deprive her of that relationship opportunity.  However, to impose your hate of God on all others is just wrong.  

In addition to the spiritual benefits of exposing a child to religious beliefs and services, I have, with the help of Jules' favorite AI (perplexity.ai), highlighted several other benefits.  Someone not railing against God, on some Ahab like crusade to destroy others belief in God, could recognize that these benefits do exist, and may want their kids to have these advantages.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Fail. Try again dipstick.  Anyone who's had their autonomy preserved knows exactly what I'm talking about.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Fail. Try again dipstick.  Anyone who's had their autonomy preserved knows exactly what I'm talking about.

You are becoming too predictable.  I add content and facts to the discussion and you post factless posts that only insult others.  The benefits of talking about God to kids are many:

-Talking about God can be a way for parents to share their faith and values with their children.
- Answering questions: Children are naturally curious and may have questions about God. Having open conversations allows parents to address these questions.
- Building family bonds: Discussing spiritual matters can be a way for families to connect and share meaningful experiences together.  I fondly remember VBS, church camp, children's church, visiting nursing homes, feeding the poor, doing service projects for the homeless and for needy kids at Christmas.
- Providing a moral framework: For some families, belief in God is tied to moral and ethical teachings that they want to instill in their children.
- Offering comfort and support: The concept of God can provide comfort and a sense of security for some children when dealing with difficult situations.
- Developing critical thinking: Conversations about God and religion can help children learn to think critically about complex ideas.
- Cultural understanding: Learning about God and religion can help children understand their own cultural background and that of others.

I've already mentioned the negative impacts of raising atheist children:

- They die earlier
- They are more likely to go to jail
- They have lower morals
- They have less strong family relationships
- They obtain less educational achievements
- They have greater mental health problems
- They suffer more from stress

So to recap - I provided evidence that it is beneficial to talk to your child about God and expose him to religion.  i also pointed out negative consequences of growing up an atheist child.  And you - once again added nothing but insults to the discussion.  

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Fail. Try again dipstick.  Anyone who's had their autonomy preserved knows exactly what I'm talking about.

You are becoming too predictable.  I add content and facts to the discussion and you post factless posts that only insult others.  The benefits of talking about God to kids are many:

-Talking about God can be a way for parents to share their faith and values with their children.
- Answering questions: Children are naturally curious and may have questions about God. Having open conversations allows parents to address these questions.
- Building family bonds: Discussing spiritual matters can be a way for families to connect and share meaningful experiences together.  I fondly remember VBS, church camp, children's church, visiting nursing homes, feeding the poor, doing service projects for the homeless and for needy kids at Christmas.
- Providing a moral framework: For some families, belief in God is tied to moral and ethical teachings that they want to instill in their children.
- Offering comfort and support: The concept of God can provide comfort and a sense of security for some children when dealing with difficult situations.
- Developing critical thinking: Conversations about God and religion can help children learn to think critically about complex ideas.
- Cultural understanding: Learning about God and religion can help children understand their own cultural background and that of others.

I've already mentioned the negative impacts of raising atheist children:

- They die earlier
- They are more likely to go to jail
- They have lower morals
- They have less strong family relationships
- They obtain less educational achievements
- They have greater mental health problems
- They suffer more from stress

So to recap - I provided evidence that it is beneficial to talk to your child about God and expose him to religion.  i also pointed out negative consequences of growing up an atheist child.  And you - once again added nothing but insults to the discussion.  

You couldn't articulate a paper bag, and have no clue as to what I'm talking about. So babble on. But this conversation doesn't go on till you address what I said to my satisfaction. Knowing you, you will simply continue seeing yourself as a cartoon, (everyone else does too) and patting yourself on the back. Good day. https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/194827/#Comment_194827

polytheistwitch

It's one thing to practice your religion and your children be tagging along with you. It's another thing to actively be telling children if they don't accept Jesus Christ they're going to burn in hell and also telling them other horrible things about themselves because of religion. My parents were atheist, my grandmothers were not. One attended to Holy Roller church and she never took me with her cuz she felt it was inappropriate for someone my age to hear about hell. My other grandmother attended a Presbyterian Church which was very enlightened and there was little to no teaching children anything in that church. I once worked a vacation bible school and it was one of the most horrible things I've ever experienced. They had kids crying when they left that place. I've been practicing my religion since my son was three and he's not been involved in any of it. He has put offerings on our altars on his own and he has asked to do things like light candles or put things on the table but I don't discuss what I'm doing, I don't include him in what I'm doing and he probably couldn't name more than two or three of the gods of worship. You can practice your religion and you can explain to your children how your religion reflects your life without forcing your children into your religion.

Foxtrot22024

@polytheistwitch, that makes a lot of sense. I personally attended one of those schools and had a terrible experience. Good to know that there are many great religious parents out there though.

Bogan

@Joeseph ;

Religion mostly  only works through indoctrination which requires you get them young , I actually think telling children they are sinners , unclean or Hell bound unless they accept Jesus as there saviour is child abuse , the amount of damage this  has done and is doing worldwide is incalculable.    I also think in 50 years or so people will scratch their heads and wonder how we accepted this primitive superstitious gibberish. 


 Anti racism mostly  only works through indoctrination which requires you get them young , I actually think telling children they are Nazi, fascists, or just so bad that they are beyond the pale,  unless they accept anti white racism as their saviour ,is child abuse , the amount of damage this has done and is doing worldwide is incalculable.   I also think in 50 years or so people will scratch their heads and wonder how we accepted this primitive anti racist superstitious gibberish.

Joeseph

@Bogan


I haven't a clue what you're trying to say but it sounds like something only a drunken imbecile like you would say.......ignore

21CenturyIconoclast

@just_sayin

Just_LYING, that is trying to take over RickeyHoltsclaw’s position of being the number one BIBLE FOOL of this Religion Forum,

THE SECOND MOST BIBLE DUMB “JUST_LYING” STATED THIS IN SHOWING THAT CHRISTIANITY SHOULD BE FOLLOWED: 

Spiritual/Moral Benefits:

1. Development of a moral framework and values

2. Opportunities for spiritual growth and understanding

3. Exposure to religious teachings and practices

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/194801/#Comment_194801

THEREFORE, HERE IS A SCENARIO OF “JUST_LYING” CONVERSING WITH HIS CHILD TO THE MORAL BENEFITS OF CHRISTIANITY:

CHILD: “Daddy, I am scared because I found these things that Jesus commanded and did in our bible which are scary and mean!

JUST_LYING: Oh, don’t be silly, our Jesus is all loving and forgiving, remember?

CHILD:  But, but, uh, but Jesus was upset with Samaria and commanded that “little ones” like me should be dashed to pieces and pregnant women ripped open!  Daddy, would Jesus ever get mad at us for what you and mommy did that displeased him?  Where if mommy got pregnant again, Jesus would have her ripped up and killing her and the baby within her womb?!  Daddy, I am scared and am having nightmares!

JUST_LYING: Damn you, didn’t I tell you not to read the Bible unless I pick and choose the Bible verses you are to read?!

CHILD. But Daddy, you tell me that the Bible is the word of Jesus as god, and I can’t get the visual of little ones out of my mind in being dashed to pieces, and where I see mommy pregnant and Jesus ripping her open!  Daddy, do we have to be Christians? Huh?

JUST_LYING:  Where does it say in the Bible what you propose? 

CHILD:  Here it is Daddy: “Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.” (Hosea 13:16)

JUST_LYING:  Uhhhhhh, okay, hmmmmm, guess what, it is time for you to say your prayers and go to bed, NOW!

CHILD:  But Daddy, you want me to pray to Jesus that did those horrible things to innocent children and the killing of babies by having pregnant women ripped open?

JUST_LYING:  I SAID NOW!

Atheists, can you ever see pseudo-christians like our 2nd most bible dumb “Just_LYING” bring verses as shown above to their children? NO, THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN as they essentially LIE about Christianity!

Christianity was the diaper of humanity’s childhood; but dumbfounded pseudo-christians like JUST_LYING doesn’t understand that they can grow out of it in the 21st Century of Science and Reasoning; like the Judeo-Christian bible states herewith:”

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me." (1 Corinthians 13:11)

.

21CenturyIconoclast

@just_sayin


HERE IS ANOTHER SCENARIO OF “JUST_LYING” CONVERSING WITH HIS CHILD TO THE MORAL BENEFITS OF CHRISTIANITY:

Spiritual/Moral Benefits:

1. Development of a moral framework and values

2. Opportunities for spiritual growth and understanding

3. Exposure to religious teachings and practices

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/194801/#Comment_194801

CHILD:  Daddy, A friend of mine which is an Atheist told me to look up this passage relating to our Jesus as god, and it is sickening!!!!!  

JUST_LYING:  First and foremost, you are to murder any Atheist that does not follow our Christianity as Jesus as god says herewith: 

"And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

CHILD:  WHAT?  But, Daddy, he is a good friend and he helps me with my school homework! I cannot kill an Atheist, are you kidding me, surely you jest, YES??!!

JUST_LYING:  I cannot supersede in what Jesus says to do towards anyone that does not follow christianity! Now, what bible verse did this heathen Atheist give you that upsets you?!

CHILD:  Uh, hmmmmmm, it is this bible verse that I am totally scared of where again; Jesus as god was upset where he said to these people that they are to eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, huh?!:

"You will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters." (Leviticus 26:29)

Daddy, again, I am worried that if you and mommy will upset Jesus in a way where you will have to EAT ME as shown in the verse above, I AM SCARED AND I AM CRYING!!!

JUST_LYING:  Oh, oh, I have to make an important phone call, therefore, do not read our bible unless myself or your mother are with you, do you understand?! Now, go to your room until dinner!

.

21CenturyIconoclast

@just_sayin

Uh, has anyone seen our Second Most Bible FOOL "Just_LYING" hiding out in other forums here on DebateIsland?

I followed up on his comical reasoning in why a person should become a Death Cult Christian in my two posts shown above, but once again, "Just _LYING" has to run away from them because the biblical passages that I used are too sickening upon the topic at hand!  

If you see "Just_LYING" elsewhere here on DebateIsland, let him know that I am waiting for his return to make him a further Bible Stoopid FOOL relative to children being forced to accept the primitive faith of Christianity!








.





  

Foxtrot22024

@21CenturyIconoclast, I saw him in the abortion and trans women debates

Bogan

The family has always been the primary socializing force in societies above 200 people.     Parents and grandparents are the most socially responsible groups in every society.    These two groups have the heavy responsibility of imparting pro social concepts to their children and grandchildren, in the hope that they will become respected and functioning members of society.       Only a hundred years ago, it was religion which was the primary organisation which defined which moral values were right or wrong.   But as human society has developed, belief in the supernatural has eroded, and today our old religious moral values are under review.      This leaves our society vulnerable to any group who can see the opportunity to gain an advantage to their own group by inventing new moral values which benefit only themselves.   Thy seek to side step parents and grandparents to shove these values down the throats of children, as evidenced by the furors between deviant teachers and parents in PTA meetings within the USA.       This can be easy for them do do if they get the media on side, with it's powers of near mind control.   

This was one reason why Trump won in a landslide.     A usually despised group of sexual deviants were able to use their minority status with a socialist government, that can always be relied upon  to put the interests of minorities above that of majorities, to sidestep parental and grandparental control.      Which in a democracy, is s du-mb thing to do.    If you pick a fight with the people who support families you are going to lose.   Totalitarian societies can get away with that, although totalitarian governments themselves are usually extremely hostile to sexually deviant groups anyway.     . Totalitarian governments themselves understand that the propagation of their own kleptocracies is entirely dependent on brain washing the children, into accepting the totalitarian control by other self interested demographic groups.   .  Thus we have the Hitler Youth in Nazi Germany and the Komsomol in the USSR.       The Jesuits used to say it the best with their "give us the children five to ten and we will give you back a Catholic".  

The question then beg, "who's moral values should be uppermost in the socializing of children?"   I would answer the values of  socially responsible parents and grandparents, be they religious or secular values.    The right of the state to intervene in family matters should only be done in instances where the health and safety of children is at risk through families having  bizarre minority beliefs.   The Christian Scientists who would rather let their own children die needlessly rather than give them blood transfusions, is a case in point. 

polytheistwitch

If you're worried about what churches are teaching children wait until Christianity makes its way back into schools over the next 4 years.

Bogan

@polytheistwitch ;    If you're worried about what churches are teaching children wait until Christianity makes its way back into schools over the next 4 years.

If all you can say on this topic is a sneery one liner, then one suspects that you have never seriously thought about this issue at all?  

RickeyHoltsclaw

If a father neglects to raise his children to honor Jesus as Messiah; chances are, they will mature into useless, godless, mindless, atheists like the majority contributing to this forum in the name of Satan and that father will pay for his neglect and failures in judgment. It is the atheist that raises seed unto Satan.

polytheistwitch

Satan isn't an actual entity it's a title. The last I checked the Old Testament says Satan hangs out with God.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hey Poly.

@polytheistwitch

People wondered about stuff.

And people came up with somewhat outlandish solutions.

So the good guy gave you warm sunshine.

And the bad guy gave you skin cancer.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@polytheistwitch ; Satan is your god and you will perish in Hell in a fashion similar to his subsequent Judgment all because you were to arrogant and ignorant to accept the pardon offered you by Jesus (Rev 20:10-15; John 3:16).

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Without Jesus, children mature into useless atheistic sissies-liberals such as yourself...this is not a sustainable society in America...

GnosticChristian

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; Without Jesus, children mature into useless atheistic sissies-liberals such as yourself...this is not a sustainable society in America...

So God creates children ill, and then sends them to hell for not being well. 

You like that S.O B. do you.

You have quite the genocidal God there buddy. Is Hitler your second God?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@GnosticChristian ; We're not "buddies" ... I don't ally with demons. Children that die within the Realm of Time are NOT relegated to Hell but are ushered into the presence of their Creator, eternally...safe and secure. Why not study and find Truth as opposed to living in the stup-idity and mental poverty of atheism?

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I don't ally with demons.

Everyone knows you're allied only with the lunacy of other dummy Christians and the head fairytale narcissistic homicidal elf god demon Elohim, wanna be god of the elf book.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Your historically defiled atheism knows no bounds...you are not well.

Hitler was no more a Christian than you or Islam or Satan.

Excerpt:

“My feelings as a Christian point me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.”
—Adolf Hitler

It is not difficult to find collections of quotes like this one, intended to prove that Adolf Hitler was a Christian. In many of his speeches and writings, Hitler referred to God or Jesus or quoted the Bible. Consequently, it is argued, Hitler must have been a believing Christian.

The matter, however, is not that simple. A Muslim may refer to God or Jesus, or allude to biblical teachings, but this does not make him or her a Christian.

Hitler’s religious beliefs have been the source of much misinformation. Some argue that while Hitler paid lip service to Christianity, he was actually an atheist. Others argue that Hitler was an occultist. The reality is that Hitler adhered to a system of belief that may be classified as pseudo-Christian and extremely heretical.

“POSITIVE CHRISTIANITY”

To understand Hitler’s religious beliefs we should start with a quote from Point 24 of the Nazi Party program: “The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession.” Critics may assume that Positive here means something affirming. But Positive Christianity, in this context, was a cultic movement with deviant beliefs. It began before Hitler’s birth, in the mid-nineteenth century, as an attempt to blend Christianity with an extremist form of German nationalism. Prior to the establishment of the Nazi Party, Positive Christianity was an ill-defined movement, with no clearly identifiable leaders or membership rolls. It was a grassroots ideology that infected established churches and their members and crossed denominational lines.1 However, adherents to Positive Christianity did share in common at least three important deviant beliefs.

The first deviant belief was a radically edited canon. Positive Christians rejected the Old Testament as “too Jewish.” They also rejected portions of the New Testament, including Matthew’s Gospel and the letters of Paul, who was deemed a “corrupter” of Christianity.

The second deviant belief was the redefining of Jesus as a non-Jew. Positive Christians envisioned Jesus as an Aryan, a member of the Nazi “master race.” Given Jesus’ professions to be intrinsically linked to the messianic promises of the Old Testament, to deny the Jewishness of Jesus is to deny a fundamental fact of Christianity. It is also contrary to biblical teachings relating Jesus’ Jewish ancestry (Matt. 1:1–17; Luke 2:11, 3:23–28; Rom. 1:3, etc.).

The final deviant belief was a focus on orthopraxy (right practice) at the expense of orthodoxy (right doctrine or belief). Positive Christianity strongly emphasized works, such that it not only failed to formulate doctrine but also ignored doctrine to the point of annihilation. Positive Christianity ignored doctrine because Nazi leaders wished to unify Catholics and Protestants. This could only happen if doctrine as a source of disagreement was eliminated.

HITLER’S SPIRITUAL BIOGRAPHY

The sparse accounts of Hitler’s life as a young man indicate a trajectory of early piety, followed by rebellion in youth. Hitler was raised Catholic and took part in church functions as a child. But as he got older, his interest in spiritual matters waned. His closest friend as a youth, August Kubizek, said, “For the entire period that I knew Adolf Hitler, I do not think he attended mass.”2 Hitler affirmed his lack of interest in religion as a youth, saying in 1942, “At thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, I no longer believed in anything, certainly none of my friends still believed in the so-called communion, only a few totally honor students!”3 In the period following World War I, when the Nazi Party was still in its nascent stages, we find indications of Hitler’s allegiance to Positive Christianity.

Hitler’s Edited Bible

A 1919 manuscript written by Hitler outlines a plan for the biblical text: “Purification of the Bible—that which is consistent with our spirit. Second result: critical examination of the remainder.” This is “almost certainly an allusion to the Old Testament,” which Hitler’s spiritual mentors in the Nazi Party “claimed had to be removed from the Christian canon owing to its origins in Judaism.”4

Another statement of Hitler affirms that “Jewry had [Jesus] crucified. But Paul falsified his doctrine and undermined ancient Rome.” Steigmann-Gall describes this statement as an indication from Hitler that “a pure Christianity [could] be redeemed from a Jewish or Pauline corruption.”5 Clearly, Hitler maintained that the canon of Scripture ought to be substantially reduced.

Hitler’s Dejudaized Jesus

There are fewer statements from Hitler concerning the identity of Jesus, but he clearly followed the Positive Christian teaching that Jesus was not a Jew. Hitler made an explicit statement in 1921: “I can imagine Christ as nothing other than blond and with blue eyes, the devil however only with a Jewish grimace.”6 In a 1922 speech, Hitler called Jesus “the true God” but also called Him “our greatest Aryan leader.”7

Hitler’s Emphasis on Orthopraxy

In a 1926 speech, Hitler stated that the goal of the Nazi Party was to “translate the ideals of Christ into deeds” and complete “the work which Christ had begun but could not finish.”8 Note that this statement not only elevates orthopraxy but also implies a denial of the doctrine of the atonement, in which it is assumed that Christ’s work was not finished on the cross.

A SUPERIOR REVELATION?

One of the hallmarks of a cult is that members frequently will claim that they possess revelation that supersedes the Bible. Joseph Smith, for example, claimed that when he asked God which church to join, he was told that he should “join none of them, for they were all wrong.”9 This effectively divides Mormonism from mainstream Christianity.

Hitler made similar statements that distanced Positive Christianity from the mainstream. In a private meeting, Hitler stated, “We are the first to exhume these teachings! Through us alone, and not until now, do these teachings celebrate their resurrection!” Hitler thus declared that the “true message” of Christianity “was to be found only with Nazism,” and “where the churches have failed in their mission to instill Christian ethic in secular society, his movement would take up the task.”10

Hitler further affirmed his view of Positive Christianity as “true” Christianity in an address on April 6, 1923, where he answered charges that the Nazis were anti-Christian: “We are characterized as anti-Christian by the party that most seriously threatens Christianity through its connection with Marxist atheism: the [Catholic] Center Party….We must once again raise up Christianity, but it must be warrior Christianity.”11

Clearly, Hitler denied orthodox Christianity and considered the heretical system of Positive Christianity to be an effective substitute.

OVERSTATED OCCULTISM

Many Christian commentators believe that Adolf Hitler was involved in the occult. Credible evidence does not support this view. Hitler’s friend Kubizek says that the young Hitler was “absolutely skeptical of occultism,”12 and nothing in Hitler’s biography from that time on suggests that he ever changed his mind. So how is it that popular sources claim that Hitler was an occultist?

Between 1960 and 1975, several books on Nazi occultism were published.13 Historian Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke describes these works in unflattering terms as “sensational and under-researched,” adding that “inaccuracies and wild claims were repeated by each newcomer to the genre.” One of the most popular is Trevor Ravenscroft’s The Spear of Destiny, which spins a fantasy about a friend of Hitler’s youth named Walter Stein. Stein reputedly tells of Hitler’s obsession with the so-called “Hofburg Spear,” which is alleged to have been used by a Roman centurion to pierce the side of Christ.

It is unsurprising that no scholarly biographer of Hitler is aware of a “Walter Stein” in Hitler’s background. Ravenscroft apparently made up the story, based on supposed contact with Stein via a medium after his death!14 Unfortunately, even some otherwise credible Christian commentators accept Ravenscroft’s testimony as reliable, including Erwin Lutzer, the pastor of Chicago’s Moody Bible Church and author of Hitler’s Cross (Moody Press, 2012).

There are a few other arguments advanced by those who propose that Hitler was an occultist. One argument is that as a young man, Hitler read occult publications, as well as books on Eastern religions, occultism, and yoga. Credible documentation of Hitler’s interest in these subjects is sparse. Nevertheless, even if Hitler did read about these topics, it would mean little; historians generally agree that, for Hitler, the goal of reading was to find formulations and ideas that he could borrow to support his own preconceptions.15 Hitler’s reading was so varied that his reading of books on the occult would merely reflect dabbling, rather than a sustained interest.

Another argument is that Hitler was a member of the occult Thule Society, as were several other early Nazi figures, such as Dietrich Eckart. This, however, is false. Eckart and others were guests at Thule Society meetings, not members, and Hitler himself is never documented to have attended a meeting.16

A final claim we may consider is that Hitler chose the swastika, an occult symbol, to represent the Nazi Party. Although the swastika does have occult connections in some contexts, this is not the meaning that was assigned to it by Hitler. In Mein Kampf, Hitler said that the swastika signified “the struggle for the victory of Aryan mankind and at the same time the triumph of the ideal of creative work which is in itself and always will be anti-Semitic.”17 This meaning imputed to the swastika is sufficient explanation without invoking occultism.

ON TABLE TALK

A discussion of Hitler’s views on Christianity would not be complete without reference to Table Talk, a record of dialogues by Hitler. Table Talk includes statements by Hitler that are overtly hostile to Christianity. But while Table Talk may contain some authentic reminisces of Hitler, it should be treated with caution.

Some historians have suggested that Hitler’s secretary, Martin Bormann, may have spiced Hitler’s words with his own anti-Christian biases. A less-speculative point is that by the time of much of what is recorded in Table Talk, Hitler was looking back at the failed effort to bring German churches to heel in service of the Nazi agenda, and was reflecting the bitterness he felt at this failure. In any event, while Table Talk may add some color to our picture of Hitler’s views on religion, it is not critical for a case that he was not aligned with orthodox Christianity.

IS HITLER STILL A CHRISTIAN?

Despite clear evidence of Hitler’s alignment with the cultic views of Positive Christianity, critics insist that this is insufficient to disqualify Hitler as a Christian. It is argued that because Hitler self-identified as a Christian, we cannot disqualify him as a faithful believer.

This argument sets a rather low bar of evidence for how one may be defined as a Christian. If self-profession is all that is required to define one’s personal identity, without any reference to objective criteria, then even a hardened atheist could qualify as a Christian!18

The critic is intent on a broad definition of “Christian” that would include Hitler, in order to associate Christianity as a whole with moral atrocity. Such a broad designation is difficult to defend. But let us grant it for the sake of argument. We may then point out that Hitler and his associates added the designation “Positive,” to separate themselves from others designated “Christian.” Why, then, use the broader designation of “Christian” rather than the more specific designation of “Positive Christian?” Why not specifically say, as all will agree, that it is “Positive Christianity,” a heretical deviation from orthodox Christianity, that leads to such moral atrocities as Hitler and his followers committed?

Another argument is that the deviations of Positive Christianity are no more unusual than one might find in any Christian church today. It may be pointed out, for example, that the Aryan Jesus of Positive Christianity has parallels in mainstream views of Jesus as a blond, blue-eyed Anglo-Saxon. But this is an inapt comparison. Such depictions of Jesus come of mistaken ideas that all Jews of the first century were white Anglo-Saxons. It is not the result of an active racism, as was the case with Positive Christianity.

It is true that even early Christianity was subject to a certain amount of diversity of belief and practice. Nevertheless, it must also be apparent that diversity has its limits. If critics fail to set those limits based on more stringent and objective criteria, they risk making the definition of “Christian” so broad that it has no meaning at all.

Was Hitler a Christian? If the evidence is considered objectively, the answer must clearly be no. The only way this question could be answered in the affirmative would be if it were qualified with an enormous asterisk referencing an extended explanatory footnote.

https://www.equip.org/articles/was-hitler-a-christian/

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Despite your wall of Gish Gallop Hitler was Christian when he formed the Nazi movement and said so. Just like you said you want civil war so you can push "demons" (people smarter than you and do not believe in fairytales) into the sea.

One day if it's ever possible you wizen up and give up believing in Santa Clause people will still say you were a Christian nut and the evidence you left here will prove it. Even if you got a brain and accepted truth and reality one day.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;

Without Jesus, America dies in your atheistic ignorance and without Jesus, a child has no hope and their life will culminate like yours in atheistic nihilism in Hell...don't be like @Factfinder.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw


RickeyHoltsclaw, this Religion Forums number one BIBLE FOOL, and runaway of same!

Rickey, you keep posting this image shown below of beautiful little children, therefore, are these the children that your brutal serial killer Jesus as god had beaten against the rocks?  Yes?

"Hosea speaks the words of the Lord herewith: “Samaria will be punished for turning against me. It will be destroyed in war— children will be beaten against rocks, and pregnant women ripped open.” (Hosea 13:16)

Rickey, don't forget to embarrass yourself in the 21st Century, where you are to pray to your brutal child murderer Jesus the Christ!   LOL!









.

polytheistwitch

Christian men think it's okay to force themselves on women and children of course they're going to think it's okay to force their religion on children.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@polytheistwitch ; You sound like a mental case auditioning for a place on "The View."

polytheistwitch

I noticed that you're not really retorting very well on some of these comments hitting a little close to home for you are they.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@polytheistwitch ; Actually, I'm laughing at the fo-ol you're making of yourself...you sound like the typical democrat suffering from a liberal mind virus....you should be ashamed but that's not in the roundhouse of the liberal progressive.

polytheistwitch

Not only was your comeback said it didn't even State Christian men don't do that LOL you know what your people are like.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@polytheistwitch ; Show me Christian "men" forcing themselves on women and children?

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@polytheistwitch ; Show me Christian "men" forcing themselves on women and children?

You have another crime to confess Ricky? Ever hear about what Christian Catholics did to choir boys and girls? No? Read thousands of news stories that are archived, dummy.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Catholicism has NEVER been Christianity...herein lies your problem...you hate what you don't know.

polytheistwitch

Since you're probably going to whip out Catholics aren't Christians I won't post about Catholic sexual assaults https://www.qualitativecriminology.com/pub/osa148h6. ;      https://northhillschurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Sexual-Offenders-Within-The-Christian-Community-BT.pdf

RickeyHoltsclaw

@polytheistwitch ; Catholicism is not Christianity, never has been and Christian's don't abuse children.