Is Religion A Force For Good?

polytheistwitch

Not one of those are the result of religion but idiots in the religion. These all exist outside religion. If you don't want a religion then don't have one.

Factfinder

@polytheistwitch

Not one of those are the result of religion but idiots in the religion. These all exist outside religion. If you don't want a religion then don't have one.

Well aren't those idiots in the religion what makes up the religion?

marke

@Factfinder

Sinners siding with Satan are not good and peaceful humans and blaming God and good Christians for the atrocities committed by sinners in rebellion against God is wicked and dishonest.

JulesKorngold

@marke
So you admit there are BAD Christians.

maxx

i believe your A.I. is generalizing. yes tose points are valid yet religion has also contributing a lot of good since its ancient conceptions. it probably gave us the origins of art; music, bonding of others, the origins of dance, and even the beginnings of science. I do agree however that today it has gotten completely out of hand. @JulesKorngold

just_sayin

Religion has been a tremendous force of good in the world.  From getliner.com:

The Impact of Religious Organizations on Social Services

In the United States and around the world, religious organizations play an instrumental role in providing various social services, particularly to marginalized and disadvantaged populations. The percentages of services administered by these organizations vary by category, illustrating their extensive impact on society. This essay will explore the influence of religious sources in several critical areas, including homeless shelters, healthcare centers, transitional housing for ex-convicts, food banks, orphanages, rent assistance, backpacks for children, job placement services, Christmas gifts for needy children, and emergency relief services.

Homeless Shelters

Faith-based organizations are significant contributors to homelessness assistance, administering about 30% of emergency shelter beds for single adults and families in the United States. This statistic emphasizes the vital role these institutions play in alleviating homelessness, often competing with secular organizations to meet the needs of the homeless population.

Free or Reduced Healthcare Centers

According to recent data, approximately 18.5% of hospitals in the United States are affiliated with religious organizations (2019). Of these, a substantial portion is Catholic-owned or affiliated, reflecting the historical commitment of these institutions to healthcare and social welfare. Globally, the role of religious organizations in healthcare delivery is similarly significant, especially in communities with limited access to medical services (2019).

Transitional Housing for Ex-Convicts

While specific statistics regarding transitional housing programs vary, it is estimated that faith-based organizations run around 27% of transitional housing programs specifically aimed at assisting ex-convicts in the reentry process. These programs play a critical role in providing support systems that aid in reducing recidivism rates among former inmates, facilitating their reintegration into society.

Food Banks

Food banks in the United States have notably high participation from religious organizations, with around 63% of food pantries identified as faith-based (2022). This statistic illustrates how these organizations mobilize community resources to address food insecurity, highlighting their commitment to service and charity in local contexts. Nationally, organizations like Feeding America partner with extensive networks of food banks, many of which have religious affiliations.

Orphanages

Globally, religious organizations run a substantial proportion of orphanages. For instance, it is reported that approximately 5.5 million children live in Catholic orphanages, representing a significant percentage of the estimated 7.5 million children in orphanages worldwide (Collaborative on Global Children’s Issues, 2023). This highlights how faith-based initiatives help provide care and shelter for vulnerable children, particularly in regions lacking robust state support systems.

Rent Assistance Programs

Faith-based organizations are likewise influential in rent assistance programs, delivering about 25% of rent assistance services in the United States (The 1996 National Survey of Homeless Assistance Providers And ..., 2002). These organizations supplement government-led initiatives, ensuring that families facing eviction have access to necessary resources.

Backpacks for Kids

Food assistance programs targeting children, including backpack initiatives, often receive support from faith-based organizations. While exact percentages can vary, the overall role of churches and religious groups in these programs is significant. Faith communities are often involved in partnerships with local schools, distributing backpacks filled with weekend meals to food-insecure students.

Job Placement Services

In the job market, approximately 20% of job placement services in the U.S. are facilitated by religious organizations, which are particularly effective in helping individuals from disadvantaged backgrounds find employment (The Role of Faith-Based Organizations in the Social Services Sector, 1996). These services often include training and mentorship, emphasizing the holistic approach of faith-based organizations.

Christmas Gifts for Needy Children

Organizations such as Toys for Tots, often supported by churches and faith-based groups, provide Christmas gifts and holiday assistance to low-income families. While specific statistics on the percentage of faith-based involvement in these initiatives are hard to pinpoint, anecdotal evidence suggests their involvement is substantial, especially during the holiday season.

Emergency Relief Services

Faith-based groups are also pivotal in disaster relief, with estimates indicating that nearly 75% of organizations assisting with emergency relief are faith-based (Charyssa Parent, 2017). They coordinate efforts with government agencies like FEMA to provide essential services and support in the aftermath of disasters, demonstrating their operational capacity and community networks.

Conclusion

In conclusion, religious organizations significantly contribute to various social services, demonstrating a strong presence in areas such as homelessness assistance, healthcare, transitional housing for ex-convicts, food security, orphan care, rent assistance, job placement, and emergency relief. ​The percentages of services provided by these organizations underline their essential role in addressing societal challenges and supporting vulnerable populations.​ As communities continue to face complex social issues, the collaboration between faith-based groups and secular organizations can enhance resource availability and improve overall service delivery. The diverse range of support offered by these faith institutions highlights the enduring impact of religious faith in the pursuit of social welfare.

By recognizing the substantial role of religious organizations in social services, we can better appreciate their contributions and the significance of collaboration in enhancing community support systems.

maxx

you guys could at least give reference to your A.I or whatever. @just_sayin

polytheistwitch

There's nothing more untruthful than the atheist claim that every single bad thing that's ever happened involve a religion. Maybe someday all us theists will be dead and they'll have exactly what they want. The world full of robots,  just like them.

just_sayin

maxx said:

you guys could at least give reference to your A.I or whatever. @just_sayin

I mentioned that the answer came from getliner.com.  The question was:

What percentage of each of these things comes from religious sources in the US and world - homeless shelters, free or reduced healthcare centers, transitional housing for excons, food banks, orphanages, rent assistance, backpacks for kids, job placement services, Christmas gifts for needy children, emergency relief services, etc.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Yes some religions have done some good things. Nothing unique to religion however. People of all backgrounds including the non religious or atheistic have done the same things and contributed to humane causes individually and anonymously. In fact many of them give to a religious organization earmarked for a specific charity that organization may be affiliated with so the religious institution itself may not be completely responsible for all of the good listed in your thoughtless ai answer but one thing is for sure, things like the Inquisitions, crusades, jihad, politically totalitarian movements motivated primarily by religious texts and so on all as excuses to subjugate populations, these instances are unique to religion, granted though not all religions perpetrate such evils. For instance an authoritarian dictator like Stalin would not preach imagined terms like "sin" and "hell"  and "in the name of god" as ways to control the masses, because that approach to manipulation is purely religious in nature. So although religions can do some good, often times they do not, they in fact do the opposite. Thus we can not call religion a "force for good" as many wars and atrocities are primarily religious in nature first and foremost with other secondary  reasons for war like money often being simply offered as motivation and justification for the religious wars...


ChatGPT:

A religious war is a conflict primarily caused or justified by differences in religious beliefs. These wars often occur when groups holding different religious ideologies clash, either because they aim to spread their faith, defend it, or suppress the practices of another group. While religion may serve as the primary cause, other factors like politics, economics, and territorial disputes often intertwine with these conflicts.

Key Features of Religious Wars:

1. Religious Justifications: Participants may view their actions as fulfilling divine will or defending their faith.
2. Cultural and Identity Ties: Religion often overlaps with cultural or ethnic identities, deepening divisions.
3. Sacred Goals: Objectives may include the protection of holy sites, conversion of others, or eradication of heresy.

Historical Examples:

• The Crusades (1096–1291): A series of campaigns by European Christians to reclaim Jerusalem and other holy lands from Muslim control.
• The Thirty Years' War (1618–1648): A conflict in Europe involving Catholic and Protestant states.
• The Partition of India (1947): While primarily political, religious tensions between Hindus and Muslims played a significant role.

While religion is often cited as a primary driver, deeper analysis frequently reveals underlying political, economic, or social factors that also contribute to these conflicts.

4o

maxx

all in all, religion is not the major cause of wars in the world.  https://apholt.com/2023/01/03/the-myth-of-religion-as-the-cause-of-most-wars/ ; this is not the link i want however religious wars plays a small percentage of all wars since ancient history.    https://thefactbase.com/around-7-of-all-wars-in-history-were-religiously-motivated/

MayCaesar

The opening argument did not really make a good case for religion in itself not being a force of good. It listed a few examples of people doing sub-optimal things under the influence of particular religions, but I can just as well list a few examples of people doing sub-optimal things while driving a car, or working on a computer, or cooking - and that does not lead me to conclude that cars, computers and cooking are not forces for good in the world.

I would make a general case applicable to all religions of them being a bad type of ideology: the foundation of their epistemology is faith. What separates a religion (like Islam) from a non-religious ideology (like Stoicism) is that the further requires you to accept certain claims that cannot be justified rationally. In Stoicism one of the central ideas is that how you feel is chiefly determined not by objective events in your life, but by your subjective interpretation of them, hence you can choose better interpretations and feel better - and that is something that you can test empirically and find to be true. But in Islam one of the central ideas is that Allah watches your every action, and if your "action balance" is heavily on the immoral side, then after death you will end up in hell - and there is nothing you can do to test this theory other than, well, die (and then the results of your "test" will not be revealed to anyone here on Earth anyway).

Basically, religious epistemology is completely arbitrary. I can make up a random set of statements now and proclaim that if you accept them, then you will become a follower of the Great Tortoise which after your death will put you on a planet full of milk and honey - and this religion will be as valid epistemologically as Christianity or Hinduism. And when that is the case, then the only reason people actually follow the Christian god rather than the Great Tortoise is that other people do so as well. So in practice religion just ends up being a purely collectivist formation. All the ills of religion the OP mentioned in the opening statement naturally follow from that.

maxx

actually back in ancient history, let us say at the beginnings of religious behavior, such as believing in gods controlling the world, it was not based upon faith, but fear.  faith is a combination of belief and hope, and yes today those who believe in a singular god all have it. today people believe in prayer because once in awhile a coincidence happens that seems to grant that request. in ancient times it was more of cause and effect. just a note to show those how religion evolved over time. the odd thing here, is in ancient history, due to cause and effect, early people believed in god because they thought since something happened, it was controlled by the gods, hence their belief. today all they can do is point at a set of books.  @MayCaesar

just_sayin

@Factfinder
Regarding whether the battles during the crusades were just:  From getliner.com:

Based on the search results, some of the battles fought in the Crusades can be considered just wars according to the criteria established by St. Augustine and later theologians. Here's an analysis of how the Crusades, particularly the early ones, align with the concept of just war:

## Just War Criteria

St. Augustine established three main criteria for a just war:

1. Just cause

2. Legitimate authority

3. Right intention

Later theologians expanded on these criteria, adding elements such as:

4. Last resort

5. Probability of success

6. Proportionality

## Application to the Crusades

### Just Cause

The first three Crusades are often considered to have had just cause:

- They were a response to nearly 500 years of Muslim military expansion and conquest[10].

- They aimed to protect Christian populations and reclaim territories that were previously Christian[5].

- They were seen as defensive wars against aggression[1][2].

### Legitimate Authority

The Crusades were authorized by legitimate authorities:

- Popes, who were considered to have the authority to call for such actions[1].

- Secular leaders also supported and participated in the Crusades[1].

### Right Intention

The stated intentions of the Crusades included:

- Restoring peace and order in occupied territories[4].

- Defending Christendom and protecting Christian populations[5][10].

- Reclaiming holy sites and territories considered part of the Christian heritage[10].

### Additional Considerations

- The Crusades were seen as a last resort after centuries of Muslim expansion[6].

- There was a reasonable probability of success, especially in the early Crusades[9].

- The aim was to re-establish peace and justice in the affected regions[9].

## Conclusion

While not all Crusade campaigns or individual battles may have met the criteria for just war, the early Crusades (particularly the first three) can be argued to have satisfied many of the requirements for just war theory[10]. However, it's important to note that even in just wars, injustices and atrocities can occur, and the conduct of war (jus in bello) is a separate consideration from the justness of entering into war (jus ad bellum)[9].

The justification of the Crusades remains a topic of debate among historians and ethicists, with perspectives varying based on interpretation of historical events and moral frameworks[11].

Citations:

[1] https://smarthistory.org/how-was-crusading-justified-2-of-4/

[2] http://defendingcrusaderkingdoms.blogspot.com/2022/02/the-christian-doctrine-of-just-war-and.html

[3] https://voices.lifeway.com/culture-current-events/10-signs-a-so-called-just-war-is-really-a-crusade/

[4] https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/cambridge-history-of-medieval-canon-law/just-war-and-crusades/8C78979F9E5A6D07D5EE89FF3F546E07

[5] https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/were-the-crusades-just-wars

[6] https://brianholdsworth.ca/digressions/209-in-defense-of-the-crusades

[7] https://www.reddit.com/r/ExplainBothSides/comments/18uep5t/were_the_crusades_justified/

[8] https://www.jstor.org/stable/27902333

[9] https://catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-263.html

[10] https://www.theosu.ca/theos-resource/crusades-justification-arguments

[11] https://apologeticsminion.com/2015/12/30/the-crusades-just-war-or-just-war-part-1/

MayCaesar

@maxx

The most plausible anthropological theory I have encountered regarding the origins of religion suggests that the primary goal of religion was not to explain the world (humans have always been great thinkers and came up with surprisingly robust theories in conditions of lacking information), but to ascribe a divine mandate to the tribe's chief so as to avoid other tribesman challenging him. A challenge to a chief from tribesmen would put the tribe in grave danger, and even a bad chief was often a lesser evil than no chief or multiple chief pretenders. By claiming that the chief has a divine mandate (testified to by the shaman), the tribe equated a challenge to the chief to a challenge to higher powers, a much more damning prospect. Naturally, if the chief was terrible beyond belief, then the shaman would say that the divine mandate has been revoked, and the chief would be quickly removed from power and replaced by whoever the shaman would point at.

Over time these ideas would evolve into full scale religions as they would provide people with stability across the board, not just in politics. Their original use would eventually become obsolete as people would have found better ways to achieve stability, based on solid legal and cultural systems rather than belief in the supernatural - but, as such things go, it is not easy to remove religion once it has been around for millennia and pierced every area of human life.

Relying on religion to guide one's life nowadays is like riding a Roman chariot instead of a car. Genius for its time - ridiculous for today.

polytheistwitch

Don't worry one day all the theists will be dead and atheists will be able to sleep at night since the world will be perfect.

Stephen

polytheistwitch said:

Not one of those are the result of religion but idiots in the religion. These all exist outside religion. If you don't want a religion then don't have one.

But are related to religion and religious Zealots. 

maxx

perhaps you are correct. no one knows for sure. however i was talking about religious behavior, not religion itself. ancient humans attributing mundane events to gods is just a precursor to religion. A simple drought might mean the rain gods were angry, but they didnt  need a religion to believe that. today people seem unable to trace their religious beliefs any farther tan the books they have.  @MayCaesar

Factfinder

@just_sayin

"Just" reasons can be manufactured for any action one want's to take especially when deciding to war over land or treasures. The term "religion" is too casual as a term to apply concepts of good or evil to it. Which is why the answer to the op's question can only be "no" because it isn't a force for good because both good and evil are consistently present and the actions of the religious constantly portray both good and evil.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

"Just" reasons can be manufactured for any action one want's to take especially when deciding to war over land or treasures. The term "religion" is too casual as a term to apply concepts of good or evil to it. Which is why the answer to the op's question can only be "no" because it isn't a force for good because both good and evil are consistently present and the actions of the religious constantly portray both good and evil.

First, happy holidays to you.  I've been slammed at work and haven't much time, to post anything.  

You are right, individuals can manufacture what they deem 'just' reasons for their actions.  I think that it is inconsistent for an atheist though to talk about objective good and evil.  For something to be objectively good or evil, its source of authority would need to be beyond individuals or groups, since those differ between individuals and groups, and then who is to say which individual and which group is more right.  It would be an arbitrary decision.

Would the US be a more generous nation without Christianity?  I don't think so.  Philanthropic studies show that people of faith consistently give more to charities, even non-religious charities, than do atheists.  A key tenet of faith is concern for one's neighbor, and while I am not saying that atheists are completely selfish and don't care about others, the evidence does show that people of faith consistently donate more of their money and time to helping others.  For that reason alone, i think religion is a force of good in the world. 

From Chat GPT: Question: What social, mental, financial, spiritual, and health benefits does one find more often in people of faith than those who have no faith? Quantify the benefits - such as how much longer they live, how much more they make, etc

Numerous studies have examined the benefits associated with religious faith across various dimensions of life, comparing outcomes for people of faith with those who identify as non-religious or atheist. Below is a summary of these benefits, with quantified findings where possible:

---

1. Social Benefits

• Stronger Community Ties: People of faith often participate in organized religious communities, which foster a sense of belonging and support.
  • Quantification: Regular churchgoers are 20-30% more likely to have larger social networks compared to non-religious individuals.
  • Religious groups often provide mutual aid during crises, leading to better social resilience.

---

2. Mental Health Benefits

• Reduced Rates of Depression and Anxiety: Faith is linked to positive coping mechanisms and greater hope, which can buffer against mental health challenges.

  • Quantification: A meta-analysis found that individuals with religious involvement have a 36% lower risk of depression.
  • Suicide Prevention: Faith-based individuals are less likely to commit suicide, attributed to greater life purpose and social connections.

• Better Coping with Stress: Prayer and meditation practices among religious individuals can significantly lower stress.

  • Religious meditation has been found to reduce cortisol levels (a stress hormone) by up to 20%.

---

3. Financial Benefits

• Higher Giving and Charitable Actions: People of faith often give more to charity, both religious and secular.
  • Quantification: On average, religious households donate $2,000 per year more than non-religious households.
• Stability and Discipline: Faith traditions that emphasize financial responsibility and discipline can lead to better financial outcomes over time.
  • Religious individuals who attend services weekly have been found to be more likely to avoid poverty.

---

4. Spiritual Benefits

• Sense of Purpose: People of faith often report a stronger sense of meaning in life, rooted in their beliefs about the divine, afterlife, or a moral framework.

  • A survey by Pew Research found that 63% of religious people say their faith provides "a great deal" of purpose, compared to 20% among the unaffiliated.

• Forgiveness and Reconciliation: Faith communities emphasize forgiveness, which reduces interpersonal conflict and fosters personal growth.

---

5. Health Benefits

• Longer Life Expectancy: Religious observance is consistently linked to greater longevity.

  • Quantification: A study published in JAMA Internal Medicine found that regular religious service attendees live 5-7 years longer than non-attendees.
  • This is attributed to lower rates of smoking, alcohol abuse, and risky behaviors.

• Lower Cardiovascular Risk: Participation in religious activities often includes stress-reducing practices like prayer and meditation.

  • A Harvard study showed a 27% lower risk of mortality from cardiovascular disease among religious service attendees.

• Better Recovery from Illness: Faith-based individuals often demonstrate better outcomes in recovery from major illnesses, potentially linked to optimism and social support.

  • For example, cancer patients who regularly prayed were found to have a 25% better survival rate over five years.

---

Quantitative Summary

Benefit	Advantage for People of Faith
Life Expectancy	Live 5-7 years longer.
Mental Health	36% lower risk of depression; significantly lower anxiety.
Charitable Giving	Donate $2,000 more annually on average.
Community Size	20-30% larger social networks.
Stress Reduction	20% reduction in cortisol levels through prayer/meditation.
Suicide Risk	Significantly lower rates compared to non-religious groups.

---

Caveats and Considerations

• Causation vs. Correlation: Many of these benefits may result from the social structures and healthy behaviors promoted by faith, rather than belief itself.
• Diversity of Faith: Benefits vary by religious tradition, practices, and level of devotion.
• Societal Context: In secular societies, the differences between people of faith and non-faith tend to diminish.

These findings suggest that faith can be a significant factor in enhancing well-being across multiple domains, though individual outcomes will vary. 

End Chat GPT

So to summarize:  Atheists will die 5-7years younger, have 36% higher depression, give $2,000 a year less to charity, have 20-30% smaller social networks, have 20% higher cortisol levels, and be more likely to kill themselves because they are so unhappy.  Who in their right mind would want to be a miserable atheist?

maxx

generalizing a lot there however, just because one does not believe in god, or have a religion to follow, it does not mean they are not happy. You make it sound as if all atheists lack morals, are addicts, have no scruples, no decent family life, no careers and will be deemed a lower part of society. Jama is but a peer reviewed journal and  those statistics really need corroborated.  especially the part on where those in religion are happier, more adjusted, and live longer.   Every person and every brain is different, and how they live is not based upon believing or not believing in a god. Just because one believes in a god or not, has no actual bearing on health. Health has to do with how one lives, eats, and genetics.  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/201302/do-religious-people-really-live-longer?msockid=26e5ffcdb84163990c12ed2fb9e96212 ; @just_sayin

Factfinder

@just_sayin

I think that it is inconsistent for an atheist though to talk about objective good and evil.

What does that have to do with anything? No atheist talked about "objective" good and evil. Oh yeah you're not interested in debate, your only interest is in preaching fairytales. When an intelligent human being refers to good and evil other similarly intelligent people know it's not a reference to any objective source that resides outside of human rationale for a moral code of some kind; but rather to an accepted human consensus of good and evil that allows for a concept of morality. Of course those of not a similar intelligence will often fill need to slip in a preachy note of fairytale elf god morals even though they know it's their frame of mind that views morals as objective and not say, an atheists' frame of mind.

Meantime you've nor ai has made a case for religion being a "force for good" especially when so much evil is done in the name of religion. It can only be described as both a good and evil in practice when one thinks of religion. 

As far as your ai answer it's all in how you ask it as I've demonstrated before. I asked ChatGPT the same question you did only I switched the two phrases "of faith" and "no faith' so your question read as follows and got a totally different response with a totally different conclusion than yours...

What social, mental, financial, spiritual, and health benefits does one find more often in people of no faith than those who have faith?

The benefits experienced by individuals with no faith compared to those who identify with a religious or spiritual faith can vary widely depending on cultural, personal, and contextual factors. It’s important to avoid broad generalizations, as people with and without faith exhibit a range of experiences and outcomes. That said, some studies and observations highlight patterns that may occur more often among non-religious individuals in certain domains:

1. Social Benefits

• Broader Social Networks: Non-religious individuals may form social networks that are not tied to religious institutions, potentially fostering relationships across a wider range of ideological and cultural backgrounds.
• Inclusive Perspectives: Secular individuals might prioritize inclusivity based on humanistic or ethical principles rather than religious boundaries.

2. Mental Benefits

• Autonomy in Beliefs: Non-religious people may experience a sense of intellectual freedom by not adhering to doctrines or dogmas, allowing for personalized belief systems.
• Reduced Fear of Punishment: Absence of belief in divine judgment or punishment may lead to lower levels of existential anxiety for some.

3. Financial Benefits

• No Tithing or Financial Obligations: Non-religious individuals are not obligated to contribute financially to religious organizations, potentially leaving more resources for personal goals.
• Flexibility in Career Choices: Secular individuals may feel freer to pursue careers without considerations of faith-based restrictions or expectations.

4. Spiritual Benefits

• Focus on Secular Humanism: Non-religious individuals often emphasize personal meaning, ethical living, and social justice without reliance on supernatural frameworks.
• Exploration of Philosophy and Science: Secular individuals may find spiritual satisfaction in understanding the universe through scientific or philosophical inquiry.

5. Health Benefits

• Freedom from Guilt or Shame: For some, leaving a faith tradition associated with guilt, shame, or fear can lead to improved mental health.
• Individualized Health Decisions: Non-religious people may make health choices based on evidence-based medicine rather than religious teachings.

Important Considerations

• These patterns are not universal and depend on the individual’s background, culture, and personal circumstances.
• Many of these benefits can also be found among people of faith, depending on how their belief systems are structured and practiced.
• Conversely, religious individuals often experience strong community support, resilience through faith, and other benefits that non-religious individuals might lack.

Would you like more detailed information on any specific aspect?

The health benefits often associated with non-religious individuals, including reduced stress and potentially longer, more joyful lives, stem from specific psychological, social, and behavioral patterns that might differ from those with strong religious affiliations. Below is an elaboration:

---

1. Reduced Stress in Certain Situations

• Absence of Religious Guilt and Fear:
  Some religious doctrines emphasize concepts like sin, divine punishment, or eternal judgment, which can lead to stress, guilt, or anxiety for adherents. Non-religious individuals, lacking these frameworks, may experience less psychological burden tied to such fears.

• Freedom from Religious Expectations:
  Non-religious people are not bound by religious rituals, dogmas, or societal expectations associated with faith-based practices. This freedom can reduce stress related to meeting spiritual obligations or conforming to specific moral codes dictated by religion.

• Empowerment through Personal Responsibility:
  By relying on personal agency rather than divine intervention, secular individuals may feel more in control of their lives. This sense of autonomy can reduce feelings of helplessness, which is a common source of stress.

---

2. Open and Adaptable Coping Mechanisms

• Secular Coping Strategies:
  Non-religious individuals may turn to evidence-based coping mechanisms, such as therapy, mindfulness, or physical exercise, rather than prayer or faith-based coping. These strategies have been shown to effectively manage stress and improve mental health.

• Rational Problem-Solving:
  Secular approaches often emphasize logic, reason, and scientific understanding, which can help individuals feel better equipped to address life challenges and uncertainties.

---

3. Potential for More Joyful Lives

• Freedom to Define Purpose:
  Without religious frameworks, non-religious individuals have the freedom to define their own sense of purpose and meaning. This personal exploration can lead to fulfilling and authentic lives tailored to individual passions and values.

• Focus on the Present Moment:
  Many secular philosophies, such as humanism and existentialism, emphasize living in the present and maximizing happiness in the here and now. This focus on the present can promote greater life satisfaction and joy.

• Reduced Existential Anxiety:
  While some may argue that religion alleviates fear of death, non-religious individuals who embrace secular philosophies often come to terms with mortality in ways that provide peace, such as focusing on the legacy they leave behind or the experiences they create.

---

4. Healthier Lifestyles

• Personalized Decision-Making:
  Non-religious individuals often make health and lifestyle choices based on personal needs and scientific evidence, rather than adhering to religious dietary restrictions, fasting, or prohibitions on medical treatments.

• Acceptance of Mental Health Support:
  Secular individuals are often more open to seeking professional help for mental health concerns, as they may not perceive mental illness as a spiritual failing or rely solely on prayer for healing.

---

5. Longer Lives and Improved Longevity

• Reduced Chronic Stress:
  Chronic stress is a known contributor to a range of health issues, including heart disease, hypertension, and weakened immune function. By avoiding stressors tied to religious guilt or dogma, non-religious individuals may lower their overall stress levels, contributing to better physical health.

• Improved Sleep Patterns:
  Studies have shown that reduced anxiety and guilt can improve sleep quality, which is essential for overall health and longevity.

• Holistic Focus on Wellness:
  Many secular philosophies prioritize holistic well-being—mental, physical, and emotional health—which can lead to proactive health behaviors and longer, healthier lives.

---

Limitations and Context

It’s important to note that:

• Not all religious individuals experience stress from their faith, and many derive profound comfort, community, and resilience from it.
• Non-religious individuals are not immune to stress and may face existential questions or societal pressures tied to their lack of faith.

---

Would you like to explore specific evidence or case studies that support these points?

End ChatGPT

So you see, religion is just that and nothing more. Certainly not an inherent force of good.

marke

@maxx

Awareness of proper justice and morality are given to human consciousness by God.

maxx

You can makethat claimall youwant, but without external proof of a god,  its just your opinion based on a book. @marke

just_sayin

@Factfinder
Thank you for your sad and pathetic retort, it highlights atheistic desperation and lack of evidence.  LOL.  I noticed your AI used a lot of 'mights' and 'maybes' without citing any statistics, or surveys, or any evidence whatsoever.  Just like all of your atheistic faith claims, there was no substance to it.  However, if you notice my response, it cited scientific surveys and actual data.  It seems that is the story of all of our religion debates - my faith is supported by evidence, and your atheistic claims are just wishes and dreams.  LOL.

So to summarize:  Atheists will die 5-7years younger, have 36% higher depression, give $2,000 a year less to charity, have 20-30% smaller social networks, have 20% higher cortisol levels, and be more likely to kill themselves because they are so unhappy.  Who in their right mind would want to be a miserable atheist?  I know I don't.  

Maybe you will be that atheist that bucks the norm and doesn't die 5-7 years younger, doesn't get depressed, gives as much as people of faith do, have strong social networks, and normal cortisol levels.  Maybe.  LOL, but the statistics suggest you won't be.  Enjoy your miserable, depressed, high stressed, high cortisol, low social interaction, and self-centered atheistic day!  LOL

maxx

once again, that is pure generalization. The only thing religion "might" do is lower stress And give one a positive outlook on like, which does not mean that atheists do not share the same, nor does it mean that all religious people will experience the stats you provided. so at this point explain medically to all of us how religion changes our genetics and our health, in which the latter is due to how and what we eat, exercise, and genetics.  or do you really believe that religion is responsible for our health? @just_sayin

polytheistwitch

DART must be shutting down real soon. LOL.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

@Factfinder
Thank you for your sad and pathetic retort, it highlights atheistic desperation and lack of evidence.  LOL.  I noticed your AI used a lot of 'mights' and 'maybes' without citing any statistics, or surveys, or any evidence whatsoever.  Just like all of your atheistic faith claims, there was no substance to it.  However, if you notice my response, it cited scientific surveys and actual data.  It seems that is the story of all of our religion debates - my faith is supported by evidence, and your atheistic claims are just wishes and dreams.  LOL.

So to summarize:  Atheists will die 5-7years younger, have 36% higher depression, give $2,000 a year less to charity, have 20-30% smaller social networks, have 20% higher cortisol levels, and be more likely to kill themselves because they are so unhappy.  Who in their right mind would want to be a miserable atheist?  I know I don't.  

Maybe you will be that atheist that bucks the norm and doesn't die 5-7 years younger, doesn't get depressed, gives as much as people of faith do, have strong social networks, and normal cortisol levels.  Maybe.  LOL, but the statistics suggest you won't be.  Enjoy your miserable, depressed, high stressed, high cortisol, low social interaction, and self-centered atheistic day!  LOL

I see your anger issues still exist. My retort that you just demonstrated you can't refute? That retort? Your ai still doesn't demonstrate religion to be a force of good when so much evil is done in its name.

LOL, I noticed your ai (I used the same one for demo purposes) used lots of words like , "can", "often", "say", "might" and similar vocabulary as mine as well. LOL do you ever get tired of looking foolish? And you still haven't shown religion to be a force of good, alone when religious evils are done daily. It's like all other human institutions that can do good or evil. BTW thanks for acknowledging it was you the theist who brought up "objective" evil and good and admitting atheists never talked of such nonsense. (Sarcasm) I know you haven't the integrity to confess your misspoken word. Oh, and why the need to mislead? I used the same ai as you so if you wanted to know what it sited all you had to do is pose the question the same as I did. I don't see the need as it's ai so it will pull from wherever and as you know, I address the facts on the topic, and have no interests in disputing your red herrings and strawmen. Fact remains religion is not simply a "force for good". 

Your faith is supported by "evidence" that to date you can't produce. Can't present your particular elf god (of hundreds of imagined elf gods) or prove it created you. You have no god dna. You have the word of bronze aged goat herders telling you the earth is held in place by pillars and vegetation existed before then sun, and a Jewish zombie created you and pretended to die for you cause you happened to be what it created. The same ignorant goat herders also told you that if you don't believe these ignorant goat herder claims you will burn in hell forever. They also say according to scripture that a decree to love, obey, worship, submit completely, including your mind and thoughts to it (elf god) that that is how it expresses love and freewill. So because of that love and willingness to forgive you for how it created you, if you reject all this nonsense based on the fact there is no evidence for it you will burn indefinitely; you believe that is love cause bronze aged goat herders told you so. But that still ain't evidence. So silly. You've no evidence that is based in reality and by its own elf book words, it's sadistically evil, not loving. "Worship me or burn" isn't love no matter how often you preach your indoctrinated views.  Then you have people who believe and don't believe that have talked and wrote personal opinions as well appeals to gaps in the known body of knowledge as if ignorance points to your god, but still no evidence of your elf god at all can you present. Which again, is why you haven't to date, but sure, go ahead and lie to yourself if it calms your fears of a fictious hell.

Meantime I'll live my happy atheistic life and I probably will live long and have already prospered! Content with reality and in no need of faux supernatural security blankets to deal with life.

Who in their right mind would want to be a miserable theist? Fretting over whether or not your faith is strong enough that lands you in heaven or hell. Never able to question the proven idiocy of the bible because your masculine master will torture you if you do. Constantly lying to oneself over natural facts and reality out of an irrational fear of what might happen in some imaginary eschatological concept of an afterlife. Wanting to boast on the charitable contributions of religion but being afraid to cause your elf book warned you not to brag on giving of your abundance. Then because you just can't help yourself, having to lie yourself and say that because not near as much charity is done in the name of, or states that it came from atheism as does with theism; you just can't help but boast as you proudly, arrogantly call attention of giving to charity from the religious giving of their abundance. True charity is done anonymously and is given of the substance one has, not the abundance, and they don't announce what they give. What a looney, sad, and pathetic existence theists have all for a fairytale elf god, a self declared narcissistic mythical genocidal bully. Talk about perverted dreams and wishes.  

Religion is a human institution capable of good or evil but can not be defined as a "force for good" as it brings just as much evil upon the world as it does good.

MayCaesar

Should I point out that the highest life expectancy in the world is found in countries with low monotheistic religion rates?

https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/ 

Top-3 countries:

1. Hong Kong: <17% monotheists.
2. Japan: <2% monotheists.
3. South Korea: <33% monotheists.

Poor miserable Asians, living on average over 84 years, having extremely low crime rates (without "god-given objective morals", apparently)... Where is heavily religious America on the list? Oh, number 48? Touché. And on the list of the lowest homicide rates America is pretty far towards the bottom, number 140... Not good.

polytheistwitch

There are all kinds of benefits to a person individually who's involved in a religion. I'm not sure how much religion lowers stress but I can say that having a religious community can make a difference to someone. They can come in the form of having people to talk to, having financial support, having people of like-minded beliefs that don't question your spirituality. I know the idea that people find comfort in religion is completely foreign and obnoxious to atheist but it does happen. 

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

Should I point out that the highest life expectancy in the world is found in countries with low monotheistic religion rates?

https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/ 

Top-3 countries:

1. Hong Kong: <17% monotheists.
2. Japan: <2% monotheists.
3. South Korea: <33% monotheists.

Poor miserable Asians, living on average over 84 years, having extremely low crime rates (without "god-given objective morals", apparently)... Where is heavily religious America on the list? Oh, number 48? Touché. And on the list of the lowest homicide rates America is pretty far towards the bottom, number 140... Not good.

Some people forget to compare PEOPLE OF FAITH VS DEFICIENT FAITH PERSONS  WITHIN THEIR COUNTRY.  

From Getliner.com:

Life Expectancy Among Religious and Non-Religious Individuals in Hong Kong, Japan, and South Korea

The relationship between religious affiliation and life expectancy has been explored in various studies, which often indicate that individuals with religious beliefs tend to exhibit longer life spans compared to their non-religious counterparts. This essay examines the life expectancy of religious individuals in Hong Kong, Japan, and South Korea, juxtaposed with that of atheists or non-religious individuals, using available data and statistics to substantiate the argument.

Life Expectancy in Hong Kong

In Hong Kong, the life expectancy statistics reveal that the population enjoys one of the longest life expectancies globally, averaging 83.66 years (Contributors to Wikimedia projects, 2001). While specific data directly comparing religious and non-religious individuals in this region is scarce, available evidence suggests that religious individuals, particularly those practicing Buddhism and Christianity, exhibit a strong network of social support, which contributes positively to health outcomes. This social support is vital as it has been associated with lower stress levels and healthier lifestyles, ultimately leading to improved longevity in older adults (Yuk Ha WONG, 2010).

Moreover, a study highlighted the importance of spirituality in addressing the existential concerns of older persons in Hong Kong, suggesting that a strong sense of spirituality and community ties may play a significant role in enhancing mental and physical well-being, contributing indirectly to life expectancy (Yuk Ha WONG, 2010). While conclusive comparative statistics remain limited, the evidence indicates a beneficial correlation between religious practices and life longevity among religious groups in Hong Kong.

Life Expectancy in Japan

In Japan, statistics indicate an overall life expectancy of approximately 84.00 years as of 2023 (Contributors to Wikimedia projects, 2005). The religious landscape in Japan primarily includes Shinto and Buddhism, both of which encourage practices that promote mental well-being and social harmony. According to research, individuals engaging regularly in religious practices report lower stress levels and higher life satisfaction, which are aligned with longer life expectancy rates (Aaron O’Neill, 2024). 

However, a notable aspect is that about 60% of the Japanese population identifies with no particular religion or expresses non-affiliation, relying instead on secular practices and cultural traditions. Despite the lack of religious affiliation, this demographic also enjoys high life expectancy rates, often attributed to Japan's robust healthcare system and societal focus on healthy living. Thus, while religious individuals may have slightly enhanced longevity due to community and social factors, the overall life expectancy rates in Japan suggest that both religious and non-religious populations experience longevity, though religious practices may confer additional benefits.

Life Expectancy in South Korea

In South Korea, estimated life expectancy as of 2023 is approximately 82.68 years (Contributors to Wikimedia projects, 2005). The religious demographics indicate a diverse mixture of beliefs, including Buddhism, Christianity, and a substantial non-religious population. Recent studies suggest that religious participation in South Korean society encourages healthier lifestyles and provides essential emotional support, which can positively impact longevity (Contributors to Wikimedia projects, 2006). 

That said, more than half of South Koreans identify as non-religious, and this group reflects varied health outcomes based on lifestyle choices rather than a direct statistical relationship to religious belief. While some atheists may report poorer mental health, others benefit from secular support networks that provide community engagement similar to religious affiliation. ​Therefore, it becomes clear that while religious affiliation may contribute to longevity, the diverse array of health-promoting behaviors among both religious and non-religious groups complicate a straightforward comparative analysis.​

Conclusion

In conclusion, evidence suggests that religious individuals in Hong Kong, Japan, and South Korea may enjoy a slight advantage in life expectancy due to the benefits of community support, lower stress levels, and overall lifestyle choices encouraged by their faith. However, the overall life expectancy across different groups remains high in these regions, indicating that while religiosity can play a role, other factors such as healthcare quality, lifestyle habits, and social dynamics are also crucial. Ultimately, the interplay of these elements suggests that both religious and non-religious individuals sustain high life expectancy levels, albeit with potential advantages for those who maintain active religious practices.

So the evidence suggests, that while these 3 countries have high life expectancy, regardless of whether the person is a person of faith or a God denier, people of faith in these countries appear to live slightly longer lives.  

MayCaesar

One of the secrets to great health and longevity is the ability to not take anything personally.

marke

@MayCaesar

Longevity is relative.  Death and judgment are certain regardless of variations of life's longevity.

Factfinder

marke said:

@MayCaesar

Longevity is relative.  Death and judgment are certain regardless of variations of life's longevity.

Death is certain anyway. You have no evidence to support there is any judgment except possibly in the minds of humans. Kids fairytales are just that. 

maxx

you failed to answer my replies. this is a a joke. one more time, tell me medically how religion plays a part in our genetics, the way we exercise, and the food we eat in which is what keeps us healthy. you are so generalizing. all religion can do is lower stress and blood pressure and give one a positive outlook on life. but guess what? you do not need religion to achieve the same results. longevity is based upon, cellular activity, and how and what we give them as nourishment. how does religion play a part in that? longevity is also due to not getting cancer, pneumonia, or a host of other health problems. guess what? lowering your stress levels does not help.  longevity is also based upon genetics. tell me, how does religion play a part in that. ? No, it is not religion that makes one live longer. Just because one is or is not religious, it does not have any impact on how we eat, exercise, rampant diseases, or genetics. ,oh crap, covid is making its rounds, i better become religious so i will not get it. dang, my ancestors have all had heart issues, i better become religious to live longer. woe, i am totally devouring the wrong kinds of food, perhaps i better become religious so it will not affect me.  @just_sayin

polytheistwitch

Perhaps someone could show religious texts where it says that if your religious that you don't have any health problems and you live longer. If you can find that I may have to convert. Some religions may affect your diet or how you eat because they're anti meat or maybe there's other restrictions that a deity is placed on you as far as eating. Yoga was incorporated into religious practice. I'm not sure if martial arts could be considered spiritual but I definitely think Tai chi has a lot to do with moving your energy through your body in a certain way similar to yoga. I'm not sure anyone's guaranteeing you a happy life or a longer life if you're in a religion we're pointing out where religions have benefited people. Basically the topic is religion sucks I don't like it nobody should get to participate in it therefore atheism is the only way anybody should be. 

marke

@Factfinder

If you feel you must see proof of what happens to humans after they die then you really should repress those feelings because you will never have the proof you seek until you die.

marke

@polytheistwitch

God has made some promises to protect humans from some sicknesses if they seek to obediently follow His Word.  One example we can see is that there is increased protection for humans from the AIDS virus if they do not engage in unhealthy and immoral sex.

Exodus 15:26

And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee.

Factfinder

@marke

If you feel you must see proof of what happens to humans after they die then you really should repress those feelings because you will never have the proof you seek until you die.

Fairytales never have proof. Wonder why? There is proof of evolutionary biology that led to medicines but no proof of your elf god that having faith in it causses parents to kill their children by refusing medicine chanting "prayer works and miracles happen" while their children die in agony.

maxx

THAT Is inane. it is like saying that god promises me if i do not drink poison i will not get sick or die from it. oh and by the way, that quote is from god to jews. @marke

marke

@maxx

If a man avoids immoral sex he will find himself less likely to get a serious sexually transmitted disease.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

So the evidence suggests, that while these 3 countries have high life expectancy, regardless of whether the person is a person of faith or a God denier, people of faith in these countries appear to live slightly longer lives. 

But what you fail to recognize is the elephant in the room. "Religion" or it appeal doesn't necessarily lead to good outcomes. And it often only draws people who have already decided not (or stop in some cases) to party or be promiscuous thus being more inclined to join a church AFTER already reducing exposer to the potential health problems associated with those behaviors. So giving credit for those things to religion is premature nor does it get religion any closer to being a "force for good".

just_sayin

@maxx
you are so generalizing. 

Yes, @Maxx, that's what statistics are - a generalized trend.  Will some people not fit the pattern?  Sure, statistics deals with an overall general view.  And generally speaking, people of faith live longer, are happier, and are less likely to kill themselves.  

longevity is based upon, cellular activity, and how and what we give them as nourishment. how does religion play a part in that? 

Well, your genes do impact your longevity.  That much is true.  What is misrepresented, is that longevity is not just about genes though.  Behaviors also impact longevity.  Suicide and depression shorten longevity.  Stress, which people who lack faith, generally have more of, can shorten lifespans.  People who lack faith are more likely to drink, smoke, and do drugs which can reduce longevity.  Having a strong social network can increase happiness and motivation, and therefore longevity.  So while good genes helps to lengthen life, other factors also impact longevity.  

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

So the evidence suggests, that while these 3 countries have high life expectancy, regardless of whether the person is a person of faith or a God denier, people of faith in these countries appear to live slightly longer lives. 

But what you fail to recognize is the elephant in the room. "Religion" or it appeal doesn't necessarily lead to good outcomes. And it often only draws people who have already decided not (or stop in some cases) to party or be promiscuous thus being more inclined to join a church AFTER already reducing exposer to the potential health problems associated with those behaviors. So giving credit for those things to religion is premature nor does it get religion any closer to being a "force for good".

Increased health outcomes is just one benefit from being a person of faith.  People of faith have social, mental, financial, and spiritual benefits as well.  Children of people of faith are more educated and make more money when they grow up.  There are dozens and dozens of benefits from being a person of faith, while in general, atheists, are more miserable, more alone, poorer, and more likely to kill themselves because they are dissatisfied with their godless lives. just sayin  

Factfinder

 @just_sayin

Increased health outcomes is just one benefit from being a person of faith. 

Not unique to faith as I demonstrated and thus you predicably dismiss and resume your preaching.

 People of faith have social, mental, financial, and spiritual benefits as well.

What kind of faith? Nominal? Extreme? Somewhere in the middle? And if it's just a benefit of faith why are millions and millions of people happy, healthy and successful around the world who have no faith? And why does that segment of the population grow as the body of scientific knowledge increases while monotheistic elf god belief decreases?  I mean, back when the bronze aged goat herders fantasizing about gods and doing the occasional lamb, told you what to believe in, even in the 21st century, everybody was inclined to believe the myths and there would be no need for web sites like this one back then, but now with the increase of knowledge, well the writings on the wall for elf god myth beliefs. Ironic Daniel used the writing on the wall metaphor in your elf book isn't it?...  

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666622723000266

Children of people of faith are more educated and make more money when they grow up.  

People of faith are more educated? Prove it.

There are dozens and dozens of benefits from being a person of faith, while in general, atheists, are more miserable, more alone, poorer, and more likely to kill themselves because they are dissatisfied with their godless lives. just sayin 

If that's what you need to tell yourself in order to maintain an irrational fear of hell and an afterlife and belief that love is defined by 'worship me or burn forever', go ahead. I choose truth and reality. Jus sayin.

maxx

i disagree that the majority of atheists do drugs, drink, and so on, not because they do so for lack of a religion. people do not drink, or do drugs simply because they are atheists. just because one is religious and do not do those things is simply a life style. Many ,and probably the majority of atheists above poverty line, enjoy a life without drugs. not doing those things is fine and will keep one healthier, but it does not take religion to abstain. as well, just because one is not religious does not mean they are habitual suicidal people. It also does not mean that atheists do not have as much as of a positive outlook on life as those who are religious. suicide is based upon psychological, biological, social factors, culture, environment, and a host of other factors.  longevity is based upon a lot more than low stress levels and normal blood pressure, a host of other factors in which being religious plays no part at all. what your study did was look at a bunch of aged people, and noticed the majority of them claimed to be religious. one plus one does not equal three. You may as well state that the majority of them went to school and that is the reason for their longevity; for the interaction with friends led to and kept their stress levels low, and gave them a decent outlook on life.  @just_sayin

maxx

no kidding, but just because one is an atheist, does not mean they engage in immoral sex. Hey what about all of those cardinals, preachers, and reverends who had sexual relations with little boys?> @marke

marke

@maxx

God does not approve of immoral sex of any kind, not by Christians or anybody else.  Sinners committing immoral sex in rebellion against God are in trouble with God.

maxx

so much for your original statement about how religion keeps those from immoral sex safe. @marke

Factfinder

@marke

God does not approve of immoral sex of any kind, not by Christians or anybody else.  Sinners committing immoral sex in rebellion against God are in trouble with God.

Are you a sinner? Do you lie? What is an isotope?