Judas Had A Bad Deal.

Factfinder

@Stephen

You made a lot of well thought out points and I agree for the most part. I would add that the major contradiction you correctly highlighted in your post concerning loving thy enemy is nothing more than the very human practice of making laws 'for thee but not for me'. That and the fact the bible has 66 books authors unknown, pieced together through time and arranged by a cabal of clergy some 4-5 centuries after christ supposed execution to present an approved of narrative they want to insure was preserved; it's no wonder not only the contradiction you pointed out exists, but the bible is rife with contrary underpinning themes. 

I wanted to point something out though. When you look at John 13:21-27 Jesus clearly explained what was going to happen and why but the disciples just didn't want to accept it. That's why they didn't as Jesus directly where was Judas going.(?) Because they knew, they were just told. That's my opinion on why they didn't ask aloud. But the bible is just that, so who knows if the conversation ever really took place between these characters other than as characters in a fictious book of mythology? 

Stephen

Factfinder said:

@Stephen
 But the bible is just that, so who knows if the conversation ever really took place between these characters other than as characters in a fictious book of mythology? 

We don't know.  But if we are to go on the assumption that these Gospels are true accounts of the life and times of Jesus then in this case as many others it contradicts Jesus' own teachings, of love, forgiveness and tolerance which no one as yet has attempted to explain away.  And no one to my knowledge has ever forgiven Judas.
Your point would apply more so to those very odd occasions where our Gospel writers are claiming to know what was said when there were only two characters present, i.e.Satan and Jesus in the wilderness? Or the conversation between Pilate and Jesus?

Stephen

Quite surprised that there aren't any theist that are prepared to take on this theological dilemma.
Not even to explain why the newly miracle endowed disciples were unable to detect Satan in the room.... well in Judas as it happens.

marke

@Stephen

There was no point in praying for Judas at that juncture.

1 John 5:16

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Factfinder

@marke

There was no point in praying for Judas at that juncture.

1 John 5:16

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Well if that's true then there is no reason to pray at all at any juncture as Judas was predestined by god's foreknowledge (Romans 8:28-30) and couldn't be saved anyway and neither can anyone else. Destroying any illusion of freewill saying that we can choose to believe in fairytales when obviously our logical minds won't allow it. Ask a theist how does one chose to go against god's foreknowledge and you all invent wild tales of first saying "no; god is never wrong so you can't defy what god knows throughout time cause it operates outside of time and reality" and then go onto say "it knowing doesn't change that you chose not to believe". I mean utter nonsense yet grown adults believe this crap and never back it up with evidence or a well thought out opinion.

Stephen

Factfinder said:

@marke

There was no point in praying for Judas at that juncture.

1 John 5:16

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Well if that's true then there is no reason to pray at all at any juncture as Judas was predestined by god's foreknowledge (Romans 8:28-30) #

As usual the bible raises for questions that it ever answers. Judas felt guilty for doing gods work and killed himself?

marke

@Factfinder
Judas was predestined by god's foreknowledge (Romans 8:28-30)


God does not predestine sinners to rebel against God.

marke

@Stephen
Judas felt guilty for doing gods work and killed himself?

Judas repented for betraying an innocent man for money, but he did not seek God's forgiveness for his sin.

2 Corinthians 7:9-10King James Version

9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Factfinder

@marke

God does not predestine sinners to rebel against God.

How does one defy god's foreknowledge? Either it's that or you don't believe your own elf book. Magical solutions like "it knew a million years before you were born what you would decide" don't count. Let's see your well thought out adult opinion. How does one learn to accept with a logical cognitive mind, fairytales as real against your elf god's supposed foreknowledge?

marke

@Factfinder
How does one defy god's foreknowledge? 

Just because God knows in advance what sinners will do does not mean He forces them to do what they do.

Factfinder

@marke

Just because God knows in advance what sinners will do does not mean He forces them to do what they do.

Hello, anybody home? How does one chose to go against what set before they're born? No magical fairy dust answers please, explain the biblical axiom you claim to understand intelligently for once.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen
Judas felt guilty for doing gods work and killed himself?

Judas repented for betraying an innocent man for money, but he did not seek God's forgiveness for his sin.

I see, . But wasn't all in god's plan? Didn't Jesus tell his followers that he "MUST" die, for it is written"? 

Matthew 16:21 Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law,

New Living Translation Luke 24:46 And he said, “Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day.".

And we shouldn't forget that it was Jesus himself that commanded Judas to do what he "MUST" do.

It appears quite clear to me - if we are to go by these "god inspired " words from scripture that Judas really did get a bad deal.

Off you go now sunshine. 

marke

@Factfinder
How does one chose to go against what set before they're born?

It may be hard for humans to comprehend but God knows in advance what sinners will do because He knows the end from the beginning, but He does not map out sins He supposedly wants sinners to commit even against their will.  That sort of assumption is nonsense.

Stephen

marke said:

@Factfinder
How does one chose to go against what set before they're born?

It may be hard for humans to comprehend but God knows in advance what sinners will do because He knows the end from the beginning, but He does not map out sins He supposedly wants sinners to commit even against their will.  That sort of assumption is nonsense.

If all things are predestined by god then Judas is blameless.  That is something theist find hard to comprehend. 

Romans 8:30New International Version

30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Was not Judas called by Jesus?  

marke

@Stephen
Was not Judas called by Jesus?  

The word "called" has several different meanings and connotations.  Judas was called in a manner similar to the guests who were called and refused to come to the Lord's banquet.

Matthew 22King James Version

1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen
Was not Judas called by Jesus?  

The word "called" has several different meanings and connotations.  Judas was called in a manner similar to the guests who were called and refused to come to the Lord's banquet.

Stop it ffs!  Judas was called in a way no different to the other 11. he was a disciple of Jesus. No matter how you wish to redefine   language and rewrite the scriptures.

Factfinder

@marke

It may be hard for humans to comprehend but God knows in advance what sinners will do because He knows the end from the beginning, but He does not map out sins He supposedly wants sinners to commit even against their will.  That sort of assumption is nonsense.

And according to elf book fairytale copies of scripture your god is never wrong so you're still running from my question. What you advocate is "hard to comprehend" because it's incomprehensible nonsense.

How does one defy your god's supposed foreknowledge? How do you know it doesn't map out "sins" as according to your belief and elf book it, invented the term to describe its human creation the way it created them. And according to your elf book narrative it created in a specific way, having a desire to know with a proclivity towards transgression. So they could be tempted purposely so it can call them sinners who sin against god, (unbelief and defiance) and punish them less they repent, pretend they are responsible for what it created and decide to submit entirely forever so they don't burn to death eternally. Does it have another bet like it did in Job when it murdered his innocent children? With the imaginary character Satan? A bet that we don't know about that didn't make the canonization process because it didn't promote the narrative the clergy wanted? Who arbitrarily decided what part of the bible the public should and should not read? How do you know this isn't the case? 

marke

@Stephen
Stop it ffs!  Judas was called in a way no different to the other

Jesus knew what Judas was long before He chose him.

John 6:70

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Factfinder

@marke

Judas was called in a manner similar to the guests who were called and refused to come to the Lord's banquet.

So Judas was called on to betray Jesus and he couldn't defy gods foreknowledge, correct? You think he had a choice and could defy the future god knew and acted on? Why didn't he considering he was privy to the kind of facts you can't produce? He knew what god was and still chose Satan? Why would anyone walk with god in the flesh, witnessing first hand what this god can do by commanding nature and defying the laws of physics at will, healing and producing food enough for thousands at a time out of thin air, all on a daily basis as easily as anyone else got a drink of water from a well, always knowing who and what was going to be where and when, for 3.5 years and still betray him KNOWING hell was true? 30 pieces of silver? Judas held the money purse, Jesus was his cash cow on top of everything else. Even then Judas couldn't defy gods foreknowledge according to the myth in the pages of your own elf book. Proving there is no freewill and Judas had no choice but to do what he was "called" to do or to be more accurate, to do what he was hard wired to do by your imaginary god. The god of the bible who is a fabricated piece of crap and if it isn't a lie, then it don't matter who believes what, we're all screwed by this self absorbed loony pathological, homicidal maniac of a being. According to your baseless fairytale elf book that is. Good thing there is no evidence of it. 

Stephen

There ya go , Marke. Jesus chose them all. Its what I have been saying all along.

Judas wasn't only a traitor but a thief too, so why would Jesus choose such a person knowing what he was and what he would do? 

marke

@Factfinder

So Judas was called on to betray Jesus and he couldn't defy gods foreknowledge, correct? 

You are mistaken if you assume God fore-ordains every act of humans on earth.  If sinners repent God will repent of the evil He has pronounced against them.  If religious people turn away from God He will not bless them like He had said He would do.

Jeremiah 18

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Stephen

marke said:

@Factfinder

So Judas was called on to betray Jesus and he couldn't defy gods foreknowledge, correct? 




Jeremiah 18

Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

There you go , marke.  and in your own word too! Well done. 
 Just as I said. Judas was in the hands of god. Judas was like the potters clay and moulded by god to do his bidding. Judas got a bad deal for doing gods work which helped tremendously with gods plan. And as Jesus also commanded him to do.
Yet somehow YOU and other Christians have vilified him for millennia. 

Now then. Remove all shiny objects from your vision and start answering these questions.

So tell me, why didn't the other 11 recognise that a demon/satan had entered Judas.?
Why didn't they even ask where Judas was going so late at night in the dark?
When Jesus told them who the traitor would be,  why didn't  a single one of the 11 notice that it was Judas that dipped his bread in the bowel? 
Why didn't a single one of the remaining 11 stop Judas knowing what he was about to do? 

just_sayin

@Stephen
The claims made are addressed about every other week on this site.  To keep from repeating myself over, and over, and over, and over, and over - I'm just going to let perplexity.ai answer the claims:

Was Judas not a free agent to do what he wanted? The Bible says Satan entered his heart, does that mean he had lost his free will?

The question of Judas's free will in betraying Jesus is complex and has been debated by theologians and scholars. While the Bible does state that Satan entered Judas, this does not necessarily mean he lost his free will entirely.

## Satan's Influence on Judas

The Gospel of John describes Satan's involvement with Judas in two stages:

1. Satan put the idea of betrayal into Judas's heart[2].

2. Satan entered Judas after he took the bread from Jesus at the Last Supper[2].

This progression suggests that while Satan influenced Judas, Judas still made choices that allowed this influence to grow.

## Free Will and Responsibility

Despite Satan's involvement, several factors indicate Judas retained some level of free will:

1. **Personal responsibility**: Jesus held Judas accountable for his actions, saying it would be better for him if he had not been born[7]. This implies Judas bore moral responsibility for his choices.

2. **Opportunity for repentance**: After the betrayal, Judas had the opportunity to repent and seek forgiveness, just as Peter did after his denial[1][4]. His failure to do so was his own choice.

3. **Complicity with Satan**: Judas was described as being complicit with Satan, rather than merely a puppet[5]. This suggests he actively participated in the betrayal.

## Predestination vs. Free Will

The apparent paradox between God's foreknowledge and Judas's free will can be reconciled:

1. **God's foreknowledge**: God's ability to foresee Judas's actions does not negate Judas's freedom to make those choices[3].

2. **Fulfillment of prophecy**: While Judas's betrayal fulfilled Old Testament prophecies, this doesn't mean he was forced to act against his will[7].

## Conclusion

While Satan certainly influenced Judas, the biblical narrative suggests that Judas retained some level of free will and moral agency. His betrayal resulted from a combination of his own sinful desires, Satan's influence, and his failure to resist temptation[8]. Ultimately, Judas bears responsibility for his actions, even as they played a part in God's sovereign plan for salvation[7].

Citations:

[1] https://preachitteachit.org/ask_roger/was-judas-predestined-to-betray-jesus/

[2] https://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-entered-into-him.html

[3] https://www.ncregister.com/blog/misplaced-sympathies-for-judas-and-pilate-distort-moral-reason

[4] https://www.crosswalk.com/church/pastors-or-leadership/christianity-questions-answers/did-judas-have-a-choice-or-was-he-predestined-to-betray-jesus.html

[5] https://www.reddit.com/r/Reformed/comments/18rnhs1/did_judas_iscariot_have_free_will_when_he/

[6] https://www.lifepointbaptist.org/sermons/sermon/2020-07-19/the-temptation-of-judas-part-1

[7] https://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-betray-Jesus.html

[8] https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/judas-iscariot-the-suicide-of-satan-and-the-salvation-of-the-world

[9] https://www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/did-judas-have-free-will.html

[10] https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/75242/difference-between-putting-into-the-heart-of-judas-iscariot-and-entering-into

[11] https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/47974/did-judas-have-free-will-to-reject-satans-temptation

Stephen

@just_sayin
Bullshite.

marke

@Stephen
 Just as I said. Judas was in the hands of god. Judas was like the potters clay and moulded by god to do his bidding. Judas got a bad deal for doing gods work which helped tremendously with gods plan. And as Jesus also commanded him to do.

Judas could have been saved if he had only chosen to yield himself to God's will instead of yielding himself to do the will of the devil.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen
 Just as I said. Judas was in the hands of god. Judas was like the potters clay and moulded by god to do his bidding. Judas got a bad deal for doing gods work which helped tremendously with gods plan. And as Jesus also commanded him to do.

Judas could have been saved if he had only chosen to yield himself to God's will instead of yielding himself to do the will of the devil.

But he was doing gods work bidding. You have shown so yourself skiddymark. 

marke

@Stephen
Judas was serving the devil, not God, when he betrayed Jesus.  Nevertheless, God knew from the beginning what Judas would do and He turned the devil's plan into a victory for Himself and repentant sinners.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen
Judas was serving the devil, not God, when he betrayed Jesus.  Nevertheless, God knew from the beginning what Judas would do and He turned the devil's plan into a victory for Himself and repentant sinners.

You can't have it both ways.
 You are simply making shite up on the hoof. He wasn't serving the devil if everything went to gods plan  and  in accordance  with the OT prophets. Indeed, those OT prophets mention nothing at all about satan being involved in this plan. 
In fact, there was absolutely no need  to involve satan in his plan at all, was there? 
And again, we see satan just doing as he pleases and popping in and out of people at will after being condemned by god to crawl on his belly in the dust and shite "for the rest of his days". Gen 3:14
Off you go skidmark.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

The claims made are addressed about every other week on this site.  To keep from repeating myself over, and over, and over, and over, and over -

Perhaps if you gave honest answers you wouldn't have to tell the same falsehoods repeatedly. And then complain you feel the need to do so. You go to ai because you've no logical explanation for claiming "do as I command and worship me or burn forever"  is in any way, shape, or form, 'freewill' being extended. Judas had no choice according to your own bible, eons before he was even born your god moved through time and saw the future according to myth and your repeated though baseless claims of faith. And your elf gods foreknowledge can't be changed. It knew Judas would betray so Judas did according to what god set in stone before he was born, period. According to your fairytale myth book anyway. Ezekiel didn't just wake up one day and decide to lay on his side for excessive periods of time eating human feces. 

The question of Judas's free will in betraying Jesus is complex and has been debated by theologians and scholars. While the Bible does state that Satan entered Judas, this does not necessarily mean he lost his free will entirely.

No? Just the part that knew Jesus was god, knew hell was real, knew he wanted everything Jesus had to offer, and witnessed first hand he could deliver, but betrayed him anyway so he could go to hell with none of that he wanted? For 30 pieces of silver and the eternal flame? Only that part of his "freewill" I guess he lost. It's either that or what he witnessed first hand for 3.5 yrs with Jesus wasn't as impressive as tradition makes it out to be? What silliness.

And before you lie again let me reinstate for the record: My rational, calm well thought out responses refuting your tomfoolery is in no way motivated by anger. I simply seek to represent the truth when I see mythology being dispensed as fact.  

Stephen

Factfinder said: And before you lie again let me reinstate for the record: My rational, calm well thought out responses refuting your tomfoolery is in no way motivated by anger. I simply seek to represent the truth when I see mythology being dispensed as fact. 
 
@Factfinder
Very well put. 
My position is to simply challenge, question and criticize these ambiguous, contradictory unreliable half stories about a man that Christians have cloaked in myth  that appear in the scriptures . I too  am rational and as a rule try at all times think through my questions and my responses. 
I am not angry, and I don't hate Christians. I have no problem believing the characters in the BIBLE existed . The BIBLE (Old Testament in particular) in my opinion is nothing more than a sketchy history concerned with one ancient tribe (Hebrews). 

 The New Testamant , as I said above, is an ambiguous, contradictory  unreliable collection of half stories about a man that Christians have cloaked in myth  and in which its authors are trying to bury a much truer/darker  story. One only has to scratch the surface on any of the four gospels and a completely different story starts to appear.

marke

@Stephen ;  You are simply making shite up on the hoof. He wasn't serving the devil if everything went to gods plan  and  in accordance  with the OT prophets. Indeed, those OT prophets mention nothing at all about satan being involved in this plan. 

You fail to comprehend God's purpose in allowing the devil and the devil's wicked followers to do wickedly.  God makes everything they do work out for good.


Psalm 76:10

Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.
Romans 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.Psalm 76:10

Stephen

@marke ;
marke said: You fail to comprehend God's purpose in allowing the devil and the devil's wicked followers to do wickedly.  God makes everything they do work out for good.

As I said, there was absolutely no need what so ever to involve satan in his plan the first place, And again, we see satan just doing as he pleases and popping in and out of people at will after being condemned by god to crawl on his belly in the dust and shite "for the rest of his days". Gen 3:14

marke

@Stephen ; 
As I said, there was absolutely no need what so ever to involve satan in his plan the first place,

Your slander of God lacks any reasonable support from anywhere or anything.

Factfinder

@marke

Your slander of God lacks any reasonable support from anywhere or anything.

That's not an argument. It just professes blind faith.

marke

@Stephen ; 
As I said, there was absolutely no need what so ever to involve satan in his plan the first place,

God uses the wicked to perform tasks useful for His purposes, even though the wicked are trying and failing to overthrow God by doing evil.

Proverbs 16:4

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Stephen

Marke said: God uses the wicked to perform tasks useful for His purposes


@marke
Indeed god admits to creating evil: 

Isaiah 45:7King James Version

7 .....  I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

So again. Judas was used by god to carry out his plan.  

Just accept it FFS!

marke

@Stephen
Indeed god admits to creating evil:  

The word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 does not mean "sin."

AI Overview

Learn more

In Isaiah 45:7, the Hebrew word translated as "evil" is "רע" (ra), which in Strong's Concordance is listed as number 7453, meaning "bad, evil, calamity, adversity, affliction.". 

Key points about this 

Stephen

@marke
Indeed, so sin can be squarely laid at the feet of god.including the actions of Judas that was "chosen" to do gods bidding .

marke

@Stephen
  Indeed, so sin can be squarely laid at the feet of god.including the actions of Judas that was "chosen" to do gods bidding .

No, that is not what the Bible teaches.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen
  Indeed, so sin can be squarely laid at the feet of god.including the actions of Judas that was "chosen" to do gods bidding .

No, that is not what the Bible teaches.

So once again you refuse to acknowledge and deny what is actually written in your own scriptures. ????
You are just pathetic really , aren't you, skidmark.

Read it and weep, sunshine.
Isaiah 45:7

King James Version

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and I create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

marke

@Stephen ;
 Indeed, so sin can be squarely laid at the feet of god.including the actions of Judas that was "chosen" to do gods bidding .

No, you are totally wrong about that.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen ;
 Indeed, so sin can be squarely laid at the feet of god.including the actions of Judas that was "chosen" to do gods bidding .

No, you are totally wrong about that.

Judas had simply done gods bidding as per prophecy. Prophecy comes from god. 
You can tell yourself all day every day that this has nothing to do with god when your own scripture proves you to be "totally wrong". 

just_sayin

Stephen said:

marke said:

@Stephen ;
 Indeed, so sin can be squarely laid at the feet of god.including the actions of Judas that was "chosen" to do gods bidding .

No, you are totally wrong about that.

Judas had simply done gods bidding as per prophecy. Prophecy comes from god. 
You can tell yourself all day every day that this has nothing to do with god when your own scripture proves you to be "totally wrong". 

Prophecy describes what will happen.  It doesn't mean that the individuals did not make their own choices.  As Galatians 5:5 NLT says "For we are each responsible for our own conduct."

Stephen

just_sayin said:

Stephen said:

marke said:

@Stephen ;
 Indeed, so sin can be squarely laid at the feet of god.including the actions of Judas that was "chosen" to do gods bidding .

No, you are totally wrong about that.

Judas had simply done gods bidding as per prophecy. Prophecy comes from god. 
You can tell yourself all day every day that this has nothing to do with god when your own scripture proves you to be "totally wrong". 

Prophecy describes what will happen.  It doesn't mean that the individuals did not make their own choices.  As Galatians 5:5 NLT says "For we are each responsible for our own conduct."

Indeed, Someone had to be the traitor, didn't they? As per gods plan via prophecy. Irony that it had to be one of those chosen /called by Jesus/ god himself, don't ya think, skidmark.

just_sayin

Stephen said:

just_sayin said:

Stephen said:

marke said:

@Stephen ;
 Indeed, so sin can be squarely laid at the feet of god.including the actions of Judas that was "chosen" to do gods bidding .

No, you are totally wrong about that.

Judas had simply done gods bidding as per prophecy. Prophecy comes from god. 
You can tell yourself all day every day that this has nothing to do with god when your own scripture proves you to be "totally wrong". 

Prophecy describes what will happen.  It doesn't mean that the individuals did not make their own choices.  As Galatians 5:5 NLT says "For we are each responsible for our own conduct."

Indeed, Someone had to be the traitor, didn't they? As per gods plan via prophecy. Irony that it had to be one of those chosen /called by Jesus/ god himself, don't ya think, skidmark.

Prophecy tells you what God knows will happen, however, that does not mean that we don't have free will.  God's foreknowledge is not deterministic.  God knows the future.  He exists outside of space-time and past, present, and future all are accessible to Him.  Your free will is not compromised because God knows what you will do.  Your determinism has a faulty modality problem.  God's knowledge does not force you to make a decision, instead God's knowledge is based on what your decision is.

If you are truly interested in understanding the arguments for determinism and free-will check this site out:

https://carm.org/about-doctrine/if-god-is-all-knowing-and-he-knows-our-future-then-how-is-that-free-will/

For a fuller discussion of the foreknowledge vs free will debate you can look here:

https://iep.utm.edu/foreknow/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/

Hope this helps you.

Stephen

just_sayin said:

Stephen said:

just_sayin said:

Stephen said:

marke said:

@Stephen ;
 Indeed, so sin can be squarely laid at the feet of god.including the actions of Judas that was "chosen" to do gods bidding .

No, you are totally wrong about that.

Judas had simply done gods bidding as per prophecy. Prophecy comes from god. 
You can tell yourself all day every day that this has nothing to do with god when your own scripture proves you to be "totally wrong". 

Prophecy describes what will happen.  It doesn't mean that the individuals did not make their own choices.  As Galatians 5:5 NLT says "For we are each responsible for our own conduct."

Indeed, Someone had to be the traitor, didn't they? As per gods plan via prophecy. Irony that it had to be one of those chosen /called by Jesus/ god himself, don't ya think, skidmark.

Prophecy tells you what God knows will happen, however, that does not mean that we don't have free will. 

Well either you or god is a contradictory clown: 

Psalms:  "The earth is the LORD’s, and the fullness thereof, the world and all who dwell therein." God's sovereignty ensures that nothing happens outside His will. In Isaiah 46:10, God declares, "My purpose will stand, and I will accomplish all that I please.".

You need to study your bible a little bit longer than the "50 years" that you claim to have studied it for.
Off you go now. 

Factfinder

.@just_sayin\

God's foreknowledge is not deterministic.

How do you know that to be a fact? I mean besides belief in myths? Paul says we're all predestined, know not what to even pray for. How is that NOT deterministic? 

You say your elf god's foreknowledge is not deterministic but your elf book appears to disagree with you...

Romans 8

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

marke

@Stephen ; 
 God's sovereignty ensures that nothing happens outside His will

Jesus instructs us to pray that God's will be done because God's will is so often not done.

Jeremiah 19:5

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen ; 
 God's sovereignty ensures that nothing happens outside His will

Jesus instructs us to pray that God's will be done because God's will is so often not done.

Indeed and Jesus taught his disciples how to pray didn't? And a part of that prayer contained the words "thy will be done". And gods will was done by Judas. 

marke

@Stephen
Indeed and Jesus taught his disciples how to pray didn't? And a part of that prayer contained the words "thy will be done". And gods will was done by Judas. 

God knew Judas would do what he did and He used Judas' sin to our benefit.