The Willful & Unnecessary Killing of Job's Children

21CenturyIconoclast

@Stephen


Stephen,

Jesus especially had the propensity to BRUTALLY MURDER innocent little children because of their parents sins throughout the primitive JEWISH bible, as one example shown herewith:

JESUS AS GOD SAID:  “The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women RIPPED OPEN” (Hosea 13:16)

As if innocent little children regarding their parents sins were dashed to the ground and brutally murdered by Jesus as god wasn’t enough, then he has pregnant women ripped open in murdering not only the woman, but the fetus within said woman’s womb which is ABORTION, and where Jesus is hardly pro-life! 

But, pseudo-christian bible fools still worship and pray to this brutal serial killer god named JESUS!

.

Barnardot

@Stephen ;Why is life so cheap to god?

Well, it's pretty common knowledge that even nowadays that Rag Heads and Yids have very little regard for human life and we in the decent civilized West are appalled at their blatant disregard.

Life in the days depicted in the Bible was barbaric and brutal in those countries. Sure, they have gotten better but old habits last a long time and those people still carry around ancient believes and customs. 

Stephen

21CenturyIconoclast said:

@Stephen


Stephen,

Jesus especially had the propensity to BRUTALLY MURDER innocent little children because of their parents sins throughout the primitive JEWISH bible, as one example shown herewith:

JESUS AS GOD SAID:  “The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women RIPPED OPEN” (Hosea 13:16)

.

It matters not how often I  read the bible I still can't bring myself to believe that these vile and very disturbing stories were all sanctioned and or carried out by a god that is said to "love his creation". 

Fredsnephew

@Stephen

And in his wrathful vengeance GOD smote down those beer swilling Bromsgrovians.

Hallelujah.

Stephen

Hello "Fred".  Swilling beer it seems is what has kept my feet on the ground.  I suppose I shall be smoted sooner rather later "god will cut me down" at my age.

marke

@Stephen
All murder of innocent people is abhorrent, even to some Christians I should imagine

You are not qualified to judge and condemn God for what He did in Job's life.  You don't know all the facts and show an ignorance of what is right or wrong and why.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: HaHa.

Stephen said:

Hello "Fred".  Swilling beer it seems is what has kept my feet on the ground.  I suppose I shall be smoted sooner rather later "god will cut me down" at my age.

@Stephen

A happy New Year to you and yours.

Regards.

Fred.

Factfinder

Happy new year! @Stephen

It matters not how often I  read the bible I still can't bring myself to believe that these vile and very disturbing stories were all sanctioned and or carried out by a god that is said to "love his creation". 

And the even more twisted part is how Christians describe such vial acts today. Making up meaningless terms like "creator rights" in order to say when god murders and tortures innocents it's the same thing as a painter destroying his own painting. Or that somehow "worship me and submit indefinitely or burn forever" represents "freewill and benevolence" where as any other, sadistic, homicidal, narcissistic, totalitarian evil dictator would be targeted for assassination, not worship.

Factfinder

@Stephen

Forgot to mention even in the elf book god of the bible itself it says what it is going to do to Job and his poor innocent family was unjust making said elf god an admitted sinner...all over a silly bet...

Job 2:3King James Version

3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. 

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen
All murder of innocent people is abhorrent, even to some Christians I should imagine

You are not qualified to judge and condemn God for what He did in Job's life.  You don't know all the facts and show an ignorance of what is right or wrong and why.

Well maybe instead of your unqualified judgment of me, maybe you can explain why it was at all necessary to murder 10 children for a bet?
What was Satan doing walking the earth to and fro when he had been condemned to crawl in the dust of the earth for the rest of his days after deceiving Eve and causing mankind to be condemned to death?
Who was Satan that he could challenge god in the first place?
And all the while God knew the outcome from the start.
Off you go now.

Stephen

Fredsnephew said:

Stephen said:

Hello "Fred".  Swilling beer it seems is what has kept my feet on the ground.  I suppose I shall be smoted sooner rather later "god will cut me down" at my age.

@Stephen

A happy New Year to you and yours.

Regards.

Fred.

And to you too.

marke

@Stephen
Well maybe instead of your unqualified judgment of me, maybe you can explain why it was at all necessary to murder 10 children for a bet?

God did nobody any wrong.  We don't know what had been going on between Job's children and God but we do know that it is only by God's mercy that any human lives as long as he does, and then dies.

Factfinder

@marke

You are not qualified to judge and condemn God for what He did in Job's life.  You don't know all the facts and show an ignorance of what is right or wrong and why.

You are not qualified to make THAT call, yet you do. You're not qualified to preach fabrications as truths both biblically or scientifically yet you do, and care not about lying despite your god's disdain for lia*rs.

marke

@Factfinder
You are not qualified to make THAT call, yet you do. 

I do not agree that you are qualified to slander God and I am not right to justify God.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen
God did nobody any wrong.  We don't know what had been going on between Job's children and God but we do know that it is only by God's mercy that any human lives as long as he does, and then dies.

@marke You failed to explain and or answer those very relevant questions, marke. Do you have a reason for not doing so?
You may have missed them:
Can explain why it was at all necessary to murder 10 children for a bet?
What was Satan doing walking the earth to and fro when he had been condemned to crawl in the dust of the earth for the rest of his days after deceiving Eve and causing mankind to be condemned to death?
Who was Satan that he could challenge god in the first place?
And all the while God knew the outcome from the start?

When you are ready.

Factfinder

@marke

I do not agree that you are qualified to slander God and I am not right to justify God.

Don't care you don't agree. You've haven't established a god even exists so you've no right to impose any part of your fantasy on anyone else just because they see the despicable crimes encouraged and perpetrated by your elf god according to your own elf god book. Wish you were as smart as me?

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Come on marke.

marke said:

@Stephen
Well maybe instead of your unqualified judgment of me, maybe you can explain why it was at all necessary to murder 10 children for a bet?

God did nobody any wrong.  We don't know what had been going on between Job's children and God but we do know that it is only by God's mercy that any human lives as long as he does, and then dies.

@marke@marke

We "know" no such thing.

This is just wild biblical speculation, which for your own reasons you take seriously.

Actually show me a GOD...And then I will then give the idea some serious thought.

just_sayin

@Stephen
Why is life so cheap to god?

Everyone dies.  So you could extend your argument and say any death is unnecessary. By your logic any death would make God 'bad'.  God has not promised anyone that they will not die, nor that they will not suffer.  God never promised anyone that they will not suffer.  Even Jesus suffered while on the Earth.  What God has promised is that he will reward those who put their trust in Him, even if they suffer in this life, and that reward will be eternal. So physical death is not the ending of a person's existence. What you are in essence are arguing is that God doesn't have the right to play God.  But the reality is that God is the only one who has the right to play God, because He is God.  God can give or take life away as He sees fit.  He is not a man, subject to God's laws.  God can do with His creation anything He wishes.  If an artist proudly displays his artwork, or if he destroys it and burns it in the fire - either way he has done nothing immoral.  His artwork belonged to him and he could do with it what he wanted.  God as the creator, can do with His creation whatever He wishes.

Stephen

just_sayin said:

@Stephen
Why is life so cheap to god?

Everyone dies.  So you could extend your argument and say any death is unnecessary. By your logic any death would make God 'bad'. 

You could. I wouldn't.  And I was asking why life was so cheap to our creator that Christians proclaim loves us ?
Job was gods most faithful servant. There was absolutely no reason for him to murder 10 children for such a simply jolly thrill of a gamble and to prove Satan he was wrong.
Now why don't you have a go at the questions posed above instead of trying to play down this unnecessary slaughter of a faithful servants children? 
Here you go in case you too had missed them:

Can explain why it was at all necessary to murder 10 children for a bet?
What was Satan doing walking the earth to and fro when he had been condemned to crawl in the dust of the earth for the rest of his days after deceiving Eve and causing mankind to be condemned to death?
Who was Satan that he could challenge god in the first place?
And all the while God knew the outcome from the start?

Factfinder

@just_sayin

So physical death is not the ending of a person's existence.

Empirical evidence supporting that fantastical assertion? Not the musings of people who talk of things sometimes when they've experienced near death experiences but obviously didn't die since they survived to tell of it. No one has ever proved those accounts are of an afterlife and not just some random imagery their brains produced based on a person's experiences and thoughts in their lives. No, I mean conclusive evidence. Otherwise you're just subscribing to myths that will never have evidential support.

God can do with His creation anything He wishes.  If an artist proudly displays his artwork, or if he destroys it and burns it in the fire - either way he has done nothing immoral.

Yes, yes, that defeated argument again. Lying does your faith no good. You claim your elf god is THE source of morals. If that is true that makes it an objective source for morals yet that can't be if it, (your elf god) doesn't exist by the same set of morals it declares to its creation. Then it can't be a just elf god as you also claim. If its morals are objective and just then it would live by them.  If it isn't following it's own just, moral codes it is therefore a sinner. We're not talking about art which isn't sentient beings this god of yours (whom you can't produce) supposedly loves as friends and children. If it were the source of "objective morals" it wouldn't need apologists for him to run around making the argument:  for it however (your elf god)  its morals are of a subjective nature and can kill babies as if they are "art" when it feels regret or rejection. 

MayCaesar

marke said:

You are not qualified to judge and condemn God for what He did in Job's life.  You don't know all the facts and show an ignorance of what is right or wrong and why.

One does not need to write a PhD thesis to understand that there is something wrong with killing children. Christian fundamentalists are the true moral relativists though... to decide whether killing children is right or wrong, they must consult their book. Without the book, it is too hard a question to figure out.

21CenturyIconoclast

@Stephen

Stephen,

Since our number two BIBLE FOOL "MARKE" keeps running away from your thought out biblical questions, is because that is his modus operandi to begin with, where he puts up a little front as of he knows biblically in what he is talking about, and then fails to back it up with actual FACTS!

You'll learn that the dumbfounded pseudo-christians within this Religion Forum are BIBLE DUMBER, and runaways of same, than DEBATEART where we easily bludgeoned the Bible inept pseudo-christians!


Here is an image of "MARKE" when he is just to embarrassed to address biblical questions 
to him that makes him and Jesus blatant fools!  We'll let you also see the comical excuses that he
uses to run away from disturbing biblical axioms!  They are priceless, just wait!!!





.

MayCaesar

Marke has a very good running form!

21CenturyIconoclast

@just_sayin, @Stephen ;


Just_LYING, who is jealous because RickeyHoltsclaw holds the title of being the number one BIBLE FOOL of this Religion Forum!

YOUR QUOTE REGARDING YOUR SERIAL KILLER JESUS AS GOD ACTING UPON THE SUFFERING OF HIS JEWISH CREATION!:  "God never promised anyone that they will not suffer."

Just_LYING, I can't agree with you more, praise Zeus!


1. Relative to your quote above, Jesus as god most certainly did not promise that any of his Jewish Christian will not suffer, especially as brutally and sickeningly shown in the verse herewith:

This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, CHILDREN AND INFANTS, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” (1 Samuel 15:2:3)







2. Just_LYING, do you really think that the innocent children and babies in the brutal biblical narrative above needed to be excruciatingly murdered by Jesus since they knew not of their parents misgivings toward Jesus?

EXPLAIN: 


3. Furthermore, your cohort in bible stu-pidity, RickeyHoltsclaw, never was able to answer this very simple question, and that was, do you think that your serial killer Jesus was ever loving (1 John 4:16), and forgiving (Luke 23:24), as depicted within the Bible, when Jesus murdered innocent children and babies?!

BEGIN:


4. Just_LYING,  to save you from further embarrassment, do not run away form this post because we have a new Atheist member monikered as "Stephen" that will easily own your bible stu-pidity just like the other Atheist members have easily done, therefore don't let him see you run from biblical axioms. Agreed?  Good boy!





.

Factfinder

@21CenturyIconoclast

Is it just me or do all the running away theists look the same running away? LOL

just_sayin

@Stephen
Can explain why it was at all necessary to murder 10 children for a bet?

The book of Job is not in the historical books section of the Old Testament, but the poetic books.  And it may be that it is best understood that way.  However, for the sake of argument, let's assume it is a historical story, albeit with a lot of poetic speeches in it.  God asks Satan to consider Job, and Satan complains that Job is God's pet and he isn't allowed to touch him, God allows him to do so, but the text does not tell us why God does this.  You are reading your own reason for God's actions.  In reality, we can never fully understand God's reasons.  He knows all circumstances and the future.  We don't.  We can observe looking back that the book of Job has been a huge source of comfort for those going through difficult situations, and it helps us to understand that even when we don't know why something happens to us, that does not mean that God has abandoned us.  Further, Job's children were likely adults, as they held feasts in their own houses and invited their siblings.  We don't know that Job's children were 'innocent'.  Job was concerned about the possibility of them sinning. He regularly offered burnt offerings on their behalf, saying, "Perhaps my children have sinned and have cursed God in their hearts."  His concern, suggests that they may not have been 'innocent'.  

Factfinder

@just_sayin

 However, for the sake of argument, let's assume it is a historical story, albeit with a lot of poetic speeches in it.  God asks Satan to consider Job, and Satan complains that Job is God's pet and he isn't allowed to touch him, God allows him to do so, but the text does not tell us why God does this.  You are reading your own reason for God's actions.  In reality, we can never fully understand God's reasons.

What a bunch of adlib boloney. First of all your go to argument is "creator rights" so why wouldn't that apply here? Secondly, poetic or not the principle is well established. According to elf book mythology, god can kill anyone for what ever insignificant reason it wants cause it's god and that makes any atrocity it does ok, we aren't to question god. Have you ever even read the book of job or the bible?

MayCaesar

1. "We are too primitive to understand god's reasons."

2. "God's reasons are definitely good!"

just_sayin

@Factfinder
it an objective source for morals yet that can't be if it, (your elf god) doesn't exist by the same set of morals it declares to its creation.

Do parents have the same bed time as their kids?  No.  Rules that apply to the child, don't apply to the parent.  God is not man, and therefore is not subject to man's laws.  We've been over this.  

What a bunch of adlib boloney. First of all your go to argument is "creator rights" so why wouldn't that apply here? Secondly, poetic or not the principle is well established. According to elf book mythology, god can kill anyone for what ever insignificant reason it wants cause it's god and that makes any atrocity it does ok, we aren't to question god. Have you ever even read the book of job or the bible?

God never explains to Job why he allowed Job to suffer anywhere in the book.  Job's friends falsely accuse Job of being responsible for his suffering.  We can understand that, a lot of our decisions can bring about pain and harm to us.  But the point of the story, is that not all that happens to us, is because of our sin.  And that sometimes it does not make sense to us.  Even when talking with Satan, God does not explain His purpose.  We can't know the mind of God and know all that He knows.  That's a point of the story of Job.

Are you claiming God doesn't have the right to play God?    The Bible says otherwise:

1. Deuteronomy 32:39 states, "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand"
. This verse directly asserts God's authority over life and death.
2. 1 Samuel 2:6 affirms, "The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up"
. This verse echoes the sentiment that God has ultimate control over life and death.
3. Job 1:21 acknowledges God's sovereignty with the words, "The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord"
. This statement, made by Job after losing his children, recognizes God's right to give and take life.
4. Psalm 139:16 suggests God's foreknowledge of our lifespan: "Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them"

These verses collectively affirm God's ultimate authority over human life, indicating His right to determine its beginning and end according to His sovereign will.  When God either directly or indirectly takes a life, He has not wronged the human.  As creator He has the right to do anything with His creation He wants to do.  Further, since God has provided a means for people to live forever with Him as his sons and daughters, so to speak, after they die, he has taken their mortal existence, and made them more than they were initially were.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Do parents have the same bed time as their kids?  No.

Red Herring. Rules are not laws and laws are not rules. Rules are a set of conditions for which to conduct ourselves in everyday mundane life such as when a guest of an institution or establishment or living as a guest or renting. Laws come from a higher authority. Moral laws are transcendent by their nature. If the parent were to tell the child it's wrong to kill and rob, then proceeds to kill and rob the parent loses all credibility. Like your god. 

 We can't know the mind of God and know all that He knows.  That's a point of the story of Job.

We can't know the mind of god but you know it's just because of what you don't know, ignorance??? Kind like your "god did it " appeals cause science can't explain things your way? Point of Job is don't question god even when it conducts itself in ways it decreed immoral and sinful. That is why Job is often used to teach biblical patience when leaning not on your own understanding...

Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

Are you claiming God doesn't have the right to play God?    The Bible says otherwise:

Yes. Don't care what the bible says. If it is the source of morals like you claim than it must be the moral example according to what it claims is moral and just or the whole claim loses credibility just like the parents in your failed analogy.. 

 As creator He has the right to do anything with His creation He wants to do.

Make up your mind. You understand this elf god of yours well enough to know that for sure or is what you said earlier true?...

 In reality, we can never fully understand God's reasons.

In light of proverbs 3.5, it can't be both.

Stephen

just_sayin said:

@Stephen
Can explain why it was at all necessary to murder 10 children for a bet?

The book of Job is not in the historical books section of the Old Testament, but the poetic books.  And it may be that it is best understood that way.  However, for the sake of argument, let's assume it is a historical story, albeit with a lot of poetic speeches in it.  God asks Satan to consider Job, and Satan complains that Job is God's pet and he isn't allowed to touch him, God allows him to do so, but the text does not tell us why God does this.  You are reading your own reason for God's actions.  In reality, we can never fully understand God's reasons.  He knows all circumstances and the future.  We don't.  We can observe looking back that the book of Job has been a huge source of comfort for those going through difficult situations, and it helps us to understand that even when we don't know why something happens to us, that does not mean that God has abandoned us.  Further, Job's children were likely adults, as they held feasts in their own houses and invited their siblings.  We don't know that Job's children were 'innocent'.  Job was concerned about the possibility of them sinning. He regularly offered burnt offerings on their behalf, saying, "Perhaps my children have sinned and have cursed God in their hearts."  His concern, suggests that they may not have been 'innocent'.  

Stop it FFS! Job was mentally and physically tortured. and the bible makes perfectly clear the reason .  YOU pretending that "we don't know" or "understand" the reasons when the BIBLE itself tells us why is nothing more than you attempting to playdown, excuse and make reason of the unreasonable.
So why don't you start explaining away these contradictory verses? 
What was Satan doing walking to and fro on the earth when he had been condemned to crawl in the dust "for the rest of his days".
HERE>> "You will crawl on your belly  and you will eat dust  all the days of your life".Genesis 3:14

And then just strolling about as he pleases HERE>> " Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.Job 1:6-7 

marke

@MayCaesar
One does not need to write a PhD thesis to understand that there is something wrong with killing children.

You would think abortionists would understand that fact as well.

MayCaesar

@marke

Abortionists who kill born children do need to understand that too, I agree. I do not see them writing books defending that though.

marke

@MayCaesar
Abortionists who kill born children do need to understand that too, I agree. 

Abortionists are wrong to suggest fully developed babies in the womb are not human and are supposedly therefore subject to execution by abortion.

Stephen

@MayCaesar

So why don't you start explaining away these contradictory verses? 
What was Satan doing walking to and fro on the earth when he had been condemned to crawl in the dust "for the rest of his days".
HERE>> "You will crawl on your belly  and you will eat dust  all the days of your life".Genesis 3:14

And then just strolling about as he pleases HERE>> " Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.Job 1:6-7 

marke

@Stephen

The serpent is both literal and figurative.  No proficient student of the Bible should fail to realize that fact.  So, why was the snake in particular cursed, even though it was not responsible for its actions? What is the point of punishing the animal when the animal itself doesn’t have any awareness?

https://www.masters.edu/thinking_blog/the-curse-on-the-serpent/

The answer is very simple. Cursing the serpent turned it into a symbol. It turned it into a constant reminder of the degradation of Satan. Satan was really synonymous with the serpent:

And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Revelation 12:9)

And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:2)

We know the serpent in the garden is Satan because of these verses. God curses the animal itself, the snake, so that it becomes a constant picture of the devastation and the reproach that Satan bears. The snakes of the world are symbols of the divine judgment on Satan. The one who successfully tempted Adam and Eve, who challenged God’s authority, is thrown down by God in His symbolic curse on the snake:

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen

The serpent is both literal and figurative.

When it suits you.  Tell; me, what the serpent literal of figurative in this verse?
Genesis 3:14  "on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life". 

marke

@Stephen
Tell; me, what the serpent literal of figurative in this verse?
Genesis 3:14  "on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life". 

Both are in view.  The physical serpent on earth is like other deadly beasts of the field that are threats to humans.  The great serpent the devil is also a threat to humans.

Factfinder

@marke

Both are in view.  The physical serpent on earth is like other deadly beasts of the field that are threats to humans.  The great serpent the devil is also a threat to humans.

How convenient. When boxed into a logical corner you invent a magical door for your fairytale elf god to walk through.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen
Tell; me, was the serpent literal of figurative in this verse?
Genesis 3:14  "on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life". 

Both are in view.  The physical serpent on earth is like other deadly beasts of the field that are threats to humans.  The great serpent the devil is also a threat to humans.

Stop it you clown. Its a simple enough  question that should be of no problem for someone like you that claims you " have studied the bible for over 50 years".

MayCaesar

Factfinder said:

How convenient. When boxed into a logical corner you invent a magical door for your fairytale elf god to walk through.

I wish in non-religious domains people could get away with things like this... "Oh, sorry, I need to repay your loan of $1M? When I was signing the contract, by $1M I really meant 10 bucks. Have a good day!"

marke

@Factfinder
 When boxed into a logical corner you invent a magical door for your fairytale elf god to walk through.

Unbelievers think they can box God in by misquoting the Bible, but they are wrong.

2 Corinthians 13:8

For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

Stephen

marke said:

@Factfinder
 When boxed into a logical corner you invent a magical door for your fairytale elf god to walk through.

Unbelievers think they can box God in by misquoting the Bible, but they are wrong.

You are forever painting yourself into a corner. It happens every time you touch your keyboard, skidmark. It is you that boxes god in as do the gospel authors that you quote in defence of the indefensible. 
Off you god now skiddymarke