The Secret Cabal Of Jesus?

marke

@Stephen
Who were Jesus' secret cabal?

Jesus was God and as God He could have commanded legions of angels to wipe out all His enemies, but He came to earth to save sinners, not destroy them.

Matthew 26:53

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Stephen

@marke ; Ok. I can see the question wasn't plain enough for you, marke, so I shall rephrase it for you.

Who were the earthly members of Jesus' secret cabal. The bible indicates that other than his disciples, Jesus appears to have been helped in his mission by unknown sources. Sources that even his inner 12 were ignorant of.

marke

@Stephen
We know that at one of his three trials that Jesus claimed to have "never  have I said nor done anything in secret".

Jesus told His murderous inquisitors to ask others what He taught openly and unashamedly in the synagogue if they wanted to know what doctrines He taught that they were trying to kill Him for teaching.

John 18:19-21King James Version

19 The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.

20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

21 Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen
We know that at one of his three trials that Jesus claimed to have "never  have I said nor done anything in secret".

Jesus told His murderous inquisitors to ask others what He taught openly and unashamedly in the synagogue if they wanted to know what doctrines He taught that they were trying to kill Him for teaching.

 But he lied  when he said he'd said nor done anything in secret, didn't he , marke ? He had taught things in secret. He had spoken in secret and he had secret disciples.
You need to read your bible for yourself and not let others read it to you.
Off you go now.

marke

@Stephen
Jesus claimed to have "never  have I said nor done anything in secret".

Jesus did not say He had never done anything in secret.  He told the religious devils that if they wanted to know His doctrine then they should ask any of thousands of Jews who heard Him teach openly and not in secret.

John 18:20

Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

Stephen

@Stephen
Jesus claimed to have "never  have I said nor done anything in secret". But he had secret disciples, secret meetings and spoke in secret.

marke said:
Jesus did not say He had never done anything in secret.  He told the religious devils that if they wanted to know His doctrine then they should ask any of thousands of Jews who heard Him teach openly and not in secret.

John 18:20

Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

You have just proven me to be correct , you absolute bible ignorant . Read the last 7 words of your own comment above.
 Jesus said : in secret have I said nothing." John 18:20 KJV 

marke

@Stephen

You cannot honestly interpret scripture by insisting there is no room for God to use words in various capacities.  The word "nothing" in one situation does not mean "nothing" in all situations.

Here are examples:

Isaiah 39:6

Behold, the days come, that all that is in thine house, and that which thy fathers have laid up in store until this day, shall be carried to Babylon: nothing shall be left, saith the Lord.

Jeremiah 39:10

But Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard left of the poor of the people, which had nothing, in the land of Judah, and gave them vineyards and fields at the same time.

Barnardot

@Stephen ;Who were Jesus' secret cabal?

I think there was no secret about the fact that Jesus was an extremist psychopath who formed a cult claiming to be the son of God and sucked in followers and disciples. He probably wasn't the first and certainly wasn't the last dic*kwit to do that. 

The sad thing is that many people do not learn from history and get sucked in by totally ridiculous, glamorized stories about these charlatans. Unscrupulous opportunists (churches)  put these so-called icons on a pedestal and start sucking in even more gullible nit*wits by instilling the wrath of God and eternal damnation if they don't do what they're told. And so goes the circle of evil.

Stephen

Barnardot said:

@Stephen ;Who were Jesus' secret cabal?

[1] I think there was no secret about the fact that Jesus was an extremist psychopath who formed a cult claiming to be the son of God and sucked in followers and disciples. He probably wasn't the first and certainly wasn't the last dic*kwit to do that. 

[2] The sad thing is that many people do not learn from history and get sucked in by totally ridiculous, glamorized stories about these charlatans.

 [3] Unscrupulous opportunists (churches)  put these so-called icons on a pedestal and start sucking in even more gullible nit*wits by instilling the wrath of God and eternal damnation if they don't do what they're told. And so goes the circle of evil.

Prefix: Assuming everything in the bible is true: 

[1] Well you are correct in that he wasn't the first person claiming to be a messiah sent from god,(Judas Maccabeus) there were many before him as there have been many dying and rising "gods"..  I have attempted to explain just recently that - son of god - is nothing more that a title give to Kings. Solomon, David for instance and  Moses was even made "a god" by "god " himself Exodus 7:1. These are simple facts that Christians simply cannot accept yet these facts are written in their own scriptures.

[2] I can certainly agree with that.

[3] Indeed.  Pastors and Priests have taken advantage of the ignorant and uneducated for millennia and in the past their main tool of control was fear. I wish I had time to expand on this, maybe in another thread when I have more time.

marke

@Barnardot

God tells the truth.  It is charlatans like Darwin that lie and deceive.

Stephen

Marke said: God tells the truth.  It is charlatans like Darwin that lie and deceive.

Irrelevant to the thread.  

marke

@Stephen ; 

 I have attempted to explain just recently that - son of god - is nothing more that a title give to Kings.

Jesus was not like the many false prophets and quacks.  He was and is God. 

  Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen ; 

 I have attempted to explain just recently that - son of god - is nothing more that a title give to Kings.

Jesus was not like the many false prophets and quacks.  He was and is God. 

  Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Listen skidmark.  Son of god is nothing more that a title. In fact the whole nation of Israel were sons of god. 

Moses was even made a god  by god himself Exodus 7:1

 “I said, ‘You are “gods"; you are all sons of the Most High Psalm 82:6 
 "You [Israel] are sons to the Lord your God,"  Deuteronomy 14:1
Exodus 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son,

“You are my son; today I am your father. Psalm 2:7

Here. just wrap you bone head around this lot
I Chronicles 22:9-10
Behold, a son shall be born to you [David],...his name shall be Solomon....He shall build a house for My Name; he shall be a son to Me, and I will be a Father to him, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel forever.
Angels:
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of G-d came to present themselves before the L-rd, and Satan also came among them.
King David:
Psalms 2:7
I [David] will tell of the decree of the L-rd: He said to me, You are My son; today I have begotten you."
Israel:
Exodus 4:22
And you shall say to Pharaoh: Thus says the L-rd: "Israel is My son, My firstborn."
Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.
None of the above is a "son of G-d" in the familial sense. Each merely enjoyed a special relationship to G-d, like those called "sons" in the New Testament:
Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Luke 3:38
...the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

marke

@Stephen
   Son of god is nothing more that a title. In fact the whole nation of Israel were sons of god. 

Jesus was not like humans who other humans unwisely honored as gods.  John 9:31-33

King James Version

31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.

33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.

Stephen

@marke ; Well  it surprises me not that once again you ignore BIBLE facts..  You are a Bible dunce that has never read the BIBLE for yourself no matter that you claim to "have studied it for over 50 years". 

Stephen

marke said:

@Barnardot

God tells the truth.  It is charlatans like Darwin that lie and deceive.

Not sure about the truth. Jesus lies to his disciples when he said he was not going to the city but the BIBLE tells us that he did go into the city , and in disguise too.

What exactly is that you believe Darwin lied about? 

 He wasn't an atheist. And if I remember correctly he admitted that he couldn't find  the link between primates and humans? That comes across as being pretty genuine to me.
 I must admit, it is a puzzling period between the primates and humans. There does appear  to be a giant and rapid leap between the two.
The chimp didn't die out and yet its still a chimp. Humans lost their coats just to have to kill another animal for its coat.

In fact, I believe that even a modern a human wouldn't last too long in the wild at night in its natural state without fire. Still, just my opinion.

Factfinder

@Stephen

 I must admit, it is a puzzling period between the primates and humans. There does appear  to be a giant and rapid leap between the two.
The chimp didn't die out and yet its still a chimp. Humans lost their coats just to have to kill another animal for its coat.

For one evolution doesn't teach we evolved from chimps so if that's where you're looking you're not going to find any "missing links" of that nature. We evolved from a common ancestor (an extinct ape of some kind) as chimps but not from them. Both DNA  and the fossil record support this fact.  And the gap between that common ancestor and modern man is filling in quite nicely btw as human evolution is one of the easiest to document in the fossil record...

https://darwin200.christs.cam.ac.uk/transitional-fossils#:~:text=Since the evolutionary history of,over 20 species of hominins!

Many people see this as a controversial subject, but the evolution of humans from an ape ancestor is supported by DNA and fossil evidence. One major misunderstanding people commonly make (especially anti-evolutionists) is that humans evolved from chimpanzees. That’s not true.

Since the evolutionary history of humans and chimpanzees split, about 5-7 million years ago, many species of early humans (or hominins) have lived. In fact we have fossil evidence for over 20 species of hominins! 

Modern studies of human evolution can make use of DNA. The complete genomes of humans, chimps and several other primates have been sequenced. They provide the ultimate proof of our relatedness to apes and other primates; you have probably heard our genomes are about 96% identical to chimps.

Stephen

Factfinder said:

@Stephen

 I must admit, it is a puzzling period between the primates and humans. There does appear  to be a giant and rapid leap between the two.
The chimp didn't die out and yet its still a chimp. Humans lost their coats just to have to kill another animal for its coat.

For one evolution doesn't teach we evolved from chimps so if that's where you're looking you're not going to find any "missing links" of that nature. 

No I was just referring to evolution in general. ie  the suggestion that one species said to giving rise to another etc  and making the point that the Chimp didn't die out and it is still a chimp after a million years . All good stuff, me thinks.

21CenturyIconoclast

@marke


.
Marke, "The Embarrassed Runaway Pseudo-Christian!"

UPDATE FOR THE RUNAWAY FROM THE BIBLE MARKE!

Well, at least you are holding true to your runaway status now on DEBATEISLAND, where you cannot defend your faith in any way whatsoever as embarrassingly shown in the links below that you continue to run away from!:

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/201575/#Comment_201575
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/201524/#Comment_201524
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/201396/#Comment_201396
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/201668/#Comment_201668
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/201775/#Comment_201775


Marke, you must be so proud that you have now joined the ranks of RickeyHoltsclaw that couldn't defend Christianity as well, good for you Marke!


Unfortunately for you, is the fact that you don't have the logical sense to feel totally embarrassed that you have to run away from biblical axioms as shown in the links above, where you are an embarrassment to your Christianity, AND, this Religion Forum where you have absolutely no position to be here in the first place, BIBLE LOSER!



Marke, you are guilty of the following biblical passage because you are SATAN disguised in the angel of light because you have to run away from the Bible as shown in the links above!:

"And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." (2 Corinthians 11:14)

.

marke

@Stephen

No, Darwin was not likely an atheist since his college major was in theology, not science.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen

No, Darwin was not likely an atheist since his college major was in theology, not science.

Jesus!!!!  your reading is very poor marke.  I said Darwin was NOT an atheist. Is it any wonder that you persistently give irrelevant answers to the actual questions asked.

marke

@Stephen

Darwin may have trained as a theologian but what he really wanted to do was sail around the world on someone else's dime looking at living creatures and coming up with theories about them.

Stephen

Barnardot said:

@Stephen ;Who were Jesus' secret cabal?

I think there was no secret about the fact that Jesus was an extremist psychopath who formed a cult claiming to be the son of God and sucked in followers and disciples. He probably wasn't the first and certainly wasn't the last dic*kwit to do that. 

The sad thing is that many people do not learn from history and get sucked in by totally ridiculous, glamorized stories about these charlatans. Unscrupulous opportunists (churches)  put these so-called icons on a pedestal and start sucking in even more gullible nit*wits by instilling the wrath of God and eternal damnation if they don't do what they're told. And so goes the circle of evil.

There is, I believe, a lot of truth in what you have written. He did sound himself the Zealots from Galilee.  That is to say- Zealous  for the law as laid down by Moses.
But the point of my question was that Jesus had to have others outside of those inner 12 that appear to have been assisting in the mission to in·state him as King of the Jews.

Factfinder

@Stephen


But the point of my question was that Jesus had to have others outside of those inner 12 that appear to have been assisting in the mission to in·state him as King of the Jews.

Spot on, and the bible  supports your conclusion. One case for example being in Matthew 21:2-3:  Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.

3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

Obviously spies and negotiators were sent in before his arrival which his disciples were unaware. A common practice with Abrahamic Jews throughout the old testament. (Rahab comes to mind in the book of Joshua)

Stephen

Factfinder said:

@Stephen


But the point of my question was that Jesus had to have others outside of those inner 12 that appear to have been assisting in the mission to in·state him as King of the Jews.

Spot on, and the bible  supports your conclusion. One case for example being in Matthew 21:2-3:  Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.

3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

Obviously spies and negotiators were sent in before his arrival which his disciples were unaware. A common practice with Abrahamic Jews throughout the old testament. (Rahab comes to mind in the book of Joshua)

Indeed. He certainly didn't trust his inner 12 with the finer details of the mission.  And there is the arrangements for the room where the Last Supper was to take place. It's that "certain man" again, Fact Finder.

17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

18 He replied, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.’” 19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover. Matthew 26:17-19. 

I am also sure that we could count that other "wonder worker" on the block that  was also able to "cast out demons"  and that piss off Jesus' disciples because they say; "he wasn't one of us". 

Mark 9:38. “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

Jesus, with some urgency brushed away their curiosity by saying words to the effect: "Don't worry yourself about him lads,whoever is not against us is for us. Now come on, we have other work to do, lets get to it shall we?"