Is This The Real Reason Jesus Was Crucified?

just_sayin

@Stephen
Barrabas 'insurrection' was something that had happened prior, so the charges are not related.  From perplexity.ai:

Based on the search results, Jesus was primarily charged with claiming to be "the King of the Jews" when brought before Pontius Pilate. This charge was politically significant for the Roman governor, as it could be seen as a challenge to Caesar's authority[1][3]. 

However, the specific charges against Jesus varied slightly across the Gospel accounts:

1. In Luke's Gospel, Jesus was accused of "subverting the nation, forbidding payment of taxes to Caesar, and claiming to be Christ, a king"[1][5].

2. John's Gospel initially presents a vague charge, with the Jewish leaders simply stating that Jesus was a "criminal"[1].

3. Matthew and Mark focus primarily on the charge of Jesus claiming to be "King of the Jews"[2].

It's important to note that Pilate himself did not find Jesus guilty of these charges[3][4]. The Roman governor repeatedly declared Jesus innocent, stating, "I find no guilt in this man"[5]. Despite this, Pilate ultimately yielded to political pressure from the Jewish authorities and the crowd, allowing Jesus to be crucified[3][6].

Citations:

[1] https://www.louayfatoohi.com/historical-jesus/what-charges-were-brought-against-jesus-before-pilate/

[2] https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/14653/what-was-the-charge-levied-against-jesus-in-the-courts

[3] https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z6b96v4/revision/5

[4] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+18:28-19:42&version=NLT

[5] https://www.bible.com/bible/compare/LUK.23.1-11

[6] https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/jesus-vs-pontius-pilate

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hey Stephen

@Stephen

Jesus Messiah wasn't so popular then?

Factfinder

Something to consider from ChatGPT as well...

The custom of releasing a prisoner during festival days, as described in the New Testament in the context of Pilate releasing Barabbas during Passover (e.g., Matthew 27:15–26, Mark 15:6–15, Luke 23:17–25, and John 18:38–40), is not directly corroborated by any known secular Roman historical sources. However, there are a few relevant considerations:

1. Roman Practice of Clemency: Romans were known to show clemency or amnesty on special occasions to maintain order and curry favor with subject populations. For example, Roman emperors occasionally granted pardons or amnesties during significant public celebrations or events. While this is not identical to the specific Passover custom described in the Gospels, it aligns with the broader Roman practice of granting favors or releasing prisoners for political purposes.

2. Jewish-Roman Relations: The Roman governors of Judea, like Pontius Pilate, were tasked with maintaining peace in a volatile province. Showing deference to Jewish customs and festivals could have been a pragmatic way to manage tensions during Passover, a time of heightened nationalist sentiment.

3. Lack of Direct Evidence: No Roman records or writings explicitly mention a custom of releasing a prisoner during Passover or other Jewish festivals. Philo of Alexandria and Flavius Josephus, contemporaneous Jewish historians who wrote about Roman rule in Judea, do not describe such a practice. This absence of evidence, however, does not necessarily disprove the possibility, as many details of Roman governance in the provinces were not meticulously recorded.

4. Gospel Accounts: The Gospels' description of this practice has led some scholars to suggest it might reflect a specific, localized policy in Judea rather than a widespread Roman custom. Alternatively, some argue it could be a theological or narrative device used by the Gospel writers.

In conclusion, while there is no secular Roman evidence for the specific practice described in the Gospels, it is consistent with the broader Roman use of clemency to manage local populations.

The New Testament describes a custom during Passover where the Roman governor would release a prisoner chosen by the crowd, as seen in the accounts of Pontius Pilate offering to release Jesus or Barabbas. However, this specific practice is not corroborated by contemporary Roman historical records.

Scholars have noted the absence of evidence for such a custom in Roman practices. Bart D. Ehrman, for instance, points out that there is no historical record outside the Gospels of Pilate releasing prisoners during Passover or any other festival. He argues that Pilate was known for his ruthless governance and lack of concern for Jewish customs, making it unlikely he would adopt such a practice. citeturn0search4

Similarly, the article "The Pardoning of Prisoners by Pilate" emphasizes that there is no evidence that the pardoning or release of a prisoner had ever been a Roman practice during festivals. citeturn0search5

While some suggest that Romans occasionally granted clemency during special occasions, there is no direct evidence supporting the specific Passover pardon described in the Gospels. Therefore, the narrative may reflect a localized or symbolic tradition rather than a documented Roman custom.

https://marktabata.com/2022/02/23/a-local-custom-and-the-accuracy-of-the-gospels/

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3262626

https://ehrmanblog.org/pilate-released-barabbas-really/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

https://jamesbishopblog.com/2022/06/23/is-pontius-pilates-custom-of-releasing-prisoners-historical-the-barabbas-episode/

https://apologeticsuk.blogspot.com/2012/04/would-pontius-pilate-have-released.html

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/479794?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Stephen

Fredsnephew said:

@Stephen

Jesus Messiah wasn't so popular then?

interesting you should say that , Fred nephew of Fred.
When one take the time to read any of the four gospels one will quickly realise that Jesus was only known in Galilee - bandit country and home of the Zealots ( all his followers were Galilean zealots doncha know)- and a few surrounding villages. . Outside of this, no one knew who he was.

When he did finally get to visit Jerusalem, on entry, the people were asking who he was? And the only reason people had looked up to see what all the hullaballoo was all about was because of the racket and palm waving and shouts of " hosanna! son of David" coming from his entourage.Otherwise nobody would have noticed this man riding on a donkey, a common scene at the time. And  no doubt he pressed the flesh and kissed a few babies too, as all politicians do. 

just_sayin

Stephen said:

Fredsnephew said:

@Stephen

Jesus Messiah wasn't so popular then?

interesting you should say that , Fred nephew of Fred.
When one take the time to read any of the four gospels one will quickly realise that Jesus was only known in Galilee - bandit country and home of the Zealots ( all his followers were Galilean zealots doncha know)- and a few surrounding villages. . Outside of this, no one knew who he was.

When he did finally get to visit Jerusalem, on entry, the people were asking who he was? And the only reason people had looked up to see what all the hullaballoo was all about was because of the racket and palm waving and shouts of " hosanna! son of David" coming from his entourage. Otherwise nobody would have noticed this man riding on a donkey, a common scene at the time. And  no doubt he pressed the flesh and kissed a few babies too, as all politicians do. 

Jesus is mentioned by 10 or 11 non-Christian sources within 100 years of his life alone.  For perspective, Jesus has more total sources that mention him within 100 years of his resurrection, than the most well known person of Jesus' day, Tiberius Caesar, has in 150 years after his death.

Even non-Christian historians and enemies of Christianity of that time admit Jesus was known for performing miracles. So while probably not know, throughout the world, Jesus was known of in the area where he preached.

Stephen

just_sayin said:

Stephen said:

Fredsnephew said:

@Stephen

Jesus Messiah wasn't so popular then?

interesting you should say that , Fred nephew of Fred.
When one take the time to read any of the four gospels one will quickly realise that Jesus was only known in Galilee - bandit country and home of the Zealots ( all his followers were Galilean zealots doncha know)- and a few surrounding villages. . Outside of this, no one knew who he was.

When he did finally get to visit Jerusalem, on entry, the people were asking who he was? And the only reason people had looked up to see what all the hullaballoo was all about was because of the racket and palm waving and shouts of " hosanna! son of David" coming from his entourage. Otherwise nobody would have noticed this man riding on a donkey, a common scene at the time. And  no doubt he pressed the flesh and kissed a few babies too, as all politicians do. 

Jesus is mentioned by 10 or 11 non-Christian sources within 100 years of his life alone.  

So what!!? I have no problem believing that a man named Jesus existed. and a man that believed or led to believe that he was rightful heir to the throne.i.e. king of the Jews minus the so called miracles that can all be explained with a close read of the bible and a little common sense. BUT we are speaking of the time of his existence not centuries after.

marke

@Stephen
And  no doubt he pressed the flesh and kissed a few babies too, as all politicians do. 

Jesus came to save the repentant and to condemn the unrepentant wicked.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen
And  no doubt he pressed the flesh and kissed a few babies too, as all politicians do. 

Jesus came to save the repentant and to condemn the unrepentant wicked.

That's a statement not an argument.

marke

@Stephen

The Jews crucified Jesus for telling them the truth.

John 10:33

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Pilate did not find any fault in Jesus.

John 19:6

When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen

The Jews crucified Jesus for telling them the truth.

John 10:33

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Pilate did not find any fault in Jesus.

John 19:6

When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.

Jesus was crucified  because he and his Galilean Zealots had taken part in a rebellion, was a risk to the already fragile status quo between Rome and the Jewish authorities,
Learn your bible. skidmarke

marke

@Stephen

You post the reason God's enemies crucified Jesus but God's enemies were unjust and wicked and Pilate was right to tell them that he found no fault in Jesus.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen

You post the reason God's enemies crucified Jesus but God's enemies were unjust and wicked and Pilate was right to tell them that he found no fault in Jesus.

You really aught to read your BIBLE for yourself, skidmark
Herod found no fault either did he?  

Tell me, why did the Romans and not the Jewish authorities put Jesu to death, skidmark?

marke

@Stephen

The Jews put Jesus to death for envy.  The Romans went along with the murder because of politics, like the way so many Americans went along with the unjust persecution of Trump and his supporters for political reasons.

  Matthew 27:17-19

King James Version

17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?

18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen

The Jews put Jesus to death for envy.  The Romans went along with the murder because of politics, like the way so many Americans went along with the unjust persecution of Trump and his supporters for political reasons.

  Matthew 27:17-19

King James Version17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

There are- no surprises - various conflicting reasons given in the BIBLE as to why the Jews wanted rid of Jesus.

But AGAIN !! you have failed to answer my question.

Here it is again>  Tell me, why did the Romans and not the Jewish authorities put Jesu to death, skidmark?

just_sayin

Stephen said:

just_sayin said:

Stephen said:

Fredsnephew said:

@Stephen

Jesus Messiah wasn't so popular then?

interesting you should say that , Fred nephew of Fred.
When one take the time to read any of the four gospels one will quickly realise that Jesus was only known in Galilee - bandit country and home of the Zealots ( all his followers were Galilean zealots doncha know)- and a few surrounding villages. . Outside of this, no one knew who he was.

When he did finally get to visit Jerusalem, on entry, the people were asking who he was? And the only reason people had looked up to see what all the hullaballoo was all about was because of the racket and palm waving and shouts of " hosanna! son of David" coming from his entourage. Otherwise nobody would have noticed this man riding on a donkey, a common scene at the time. And  no doubt he pressed the flesh and kissed a few babies too, as all politicians do. 

Jesus is mentioned by 10 or 11 non-Christian sources within 100 years of his life alone.  

So what!!? I have no problem believing that a man named Jesus existed. and a man that believed or led to believe that he was rightful heir to the throne.i.e. king of the Jews minus the so called miracles that can all be explained with a close read of the bible and a little common sense. BUT we are speaking of the time of his existence not centuries after.

Even Jesus enemies acknowledged that Jesus performed miracles.  Oh Celsus and Phlegon said Jesus could do it because he was a sorcerer who learned magic in Egypt.  The Babylonian Talmud and Toledot Yeshu said he used sorcery and accused him of 'stealing' God's name which had the power to heal to heal lepers and those who could not walk.  Josephus said that Jesus was a doer of great deeds, alluding to his miracles.  Why would enemies of Christianity claim Jesus performed miracles if he didn't?  Answer: they wouldn't.  Instead, they would just claim the miracles were made up.  Why claim that your enemy has supernatural powers?  No one, whether Christian or the enemies of Christianity ever questioned that Jesus performed miracles.  In fact, several of the arguments against Jesus by his enemies, use evidence of Jesus miracles to accuse him of sorcery.  

marke

@Stephen ; 
Tell me, why did the Romans and not the Jewish authorities put Jesu to death, skidmark?

Pilate was the Roman governor who Jesus's enemies pressured to condemn and execute Jesus.  Pilate had Jesus executed for political reasons alone, even though he saw nothing in Jesus deserving of death.

Matthew 27

17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?

18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.

22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen ; 
Tell me, why did the Romans and not the Jewish authorities put Jesu to death, skidmark?

Pilate was the Roman governor who Jesus's enemies pressured to condemn and execute Jesus.  Pilate had Jesus executed for political reasons alone, even though he saw nothing in Jesus deserving of death.

You haven't answered my question:Tell me, why did the Romans and not the Jewish authorities put Jesu to death,  

marke

@Stephen ; 
Tell me, why did the Romans and not the Jewish authorities put Jesu to death,  

Since the Jewish leaders took Jesus to Pilate to be condemned and crucified, I assume that Pilate, not the high priests, was in charge of the death penalty cases at that time.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen ; 
Tell me, why did the Romans and not the Jewish authorities put Jesu to death,  

Since the Jewish leaders took Jesus to Pilate to be condemned and crucified, I assume that Pilate, not the high priests, was in charge of the death penalty cases at that time.

I see.   Is this what you are referring to?
John 18:31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death.

Be careful how you answer that question skidmark.

marke

@Stephen
The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death.

The Jews tried to kill Jesus several times but they knew there was no justification for killing Jesus so they set him up with Pilot and shamed Pilot into crucifying him even though Pilate knew He was innocent.

Stephen

Can you not ever answer the actual question that has been put to you? @marke
I have asked you TWICE now:

 Is this what you are referring to?
John 18:31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death.

marke

@Stephen
 The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death.

The wicked Jewish leaders were lying.  They already tried to kill Jesus several times and failed so they took Jesus to Pilate in a pitiful pretence of innocence to try to get him to kill Jesus for them.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen
 The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death.

The wicked Jewish leaders were lying.  They already tried to kill Jesus several times and failed so they took Jesus to Pilate in a pitiful pretence of innocence to try to get him to kill Jesus for them.

So the bible seems to have omitted  to tell us that the Jews were telling lies; as it does many other things,  skidmark. 

 So then why had they simply not executed him themselves?  Considering they actually found him guilty of blasphemy and had already attempted to execute him on a few occasions? 
Pilate had him bound and in custody is all they had to do was tell Pilate to hand over the blasphemer. Why involve Pilate at all?

marke

@Stephen
   So then why had they simply not executed him themselves?  Considering they actually found him guilty of blasphemy and had already attempted to execute him on a few occasions? 
Pilate had him bound and in custody is all they had to do was tell Pilate to hand over the blasphemer. Why involve Pilate at all?

We may never fully understand why fools murder people or get others to murder people for them.

Stephen

marke said:

@Stephen
   So then why had they simply not executed him themselves?  Considering they actually found him guilty of blasphemy and had already attempted to execute him on a few occasions? 
Pilate had him bound and in custody is all they had to do was tell Pilate to hand over the blasphemer. Why involve Pilate at all?

We may never fully understand why fools murder people or get others to murder people for them.

Well, if  - as you say - the Jews could and did put its own citizens to death, then what was the reason to involve Pilate at all?

marke

@Stephen
  Well, if  - as you say - the Jews could and did put its own citizens to death, then what was the reason to involve Pilate at all?

Your guess is as good as mine.  The lying religious leaders claimed they could not murder Jesus on the Sabbath, among several other lying excuses and fake reasons.