Does anybody think the Drug War is working?

marke

@jack

Wherever money is involved corruption working in the lives of sinners will hinder efforts of good men to stop the promotion of evil.

jack

marke said:

Wherever money is involved corruption working in the lives of sinners will hinder efforts of good men to stop the promotion of evil.

Hello m:

I interpret your statement to mean it was a good idea, but it failed miserably.

excon

just_sayin

@jack

First, an observation.  @Jack it doesn't appear that the God haters or @Marke are going to allow any non-religious debate to have much traction on this site.  22 of the debates on the first page are religion related.  I applaud you for trying though.  I am happy to discuss religion, but let's be honest, the God haters have no real interest in having their allegations answered or addressed.  They want to bash God and @Marke wants to bash the God haters.

The war on drugs is necessary.  What are the consequences of drugs in our society?  Let's start with the obvious - drugs can kill people.  They also increase crime and violence.  They increase poverty and social instability.  So unless you like people dying, being the victims of violent crimes, living in poverty, and seeing families disintegrate with children growing up without both parents in the home, the war on drugs should continue.

The real issue, to me, is how to fight that necessary war.  I think prevention and education programs can help.  To many people minimize the dangers drugs can have.  We need to strength law enforcement.  I know you hate the police as do many criminals, but police are needed to reduce crime and to keep communities safe.  Increasing access to treatment programs can also be helpful.  

jack

just_sayin said:

@jack

The real issue, to me, is how to fight that necessary war.   

Hello just_:

I agree.  However, the societal ills you list are going on right now, in SPITE of the drug war.  Jail certainly ain't the answer.

excon

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

@jack

First, an observation.  @Jack it doesn't appear that the God haters or @Marke are going to allow any non-religious debate to have much traction on this site.  22 of the debates on the first page are religion related.  I applaud you for trying though.  I am happy to discuss religion, but let's be honest, the God haters have no real interest in having their allegations answered or addressed.  They want to bash God and @Marke wants to bash the God haters.

The war on drugs is necessary.  What are the consequences of drugs in our society?  Let's start with the obvious - drugs can kill people.  They also increase crime and violence.  They increase poverty and social instability.  So unless you like people dying, being the victims of violent crimes, living in poverty, and seeing families disintegrate with children growing up without both parents in the home, the war on drugs should continue.

The real issue, to me, is how to fight that necessary war.  I think prevention and education programs can help.  To many people minimize the dangers drugs can have.  We need to strength law enforcement.  I know you hate the police as do many criminals, but police are needed to reduce crime and to keep communities safe.  Increasing access to treatment programs can also be helpful.  

As you infect Jack's thread with your pretense of neutrality, once again you bring up your elf god in a thread that has nothing to do with elf gods. Trying to claim rejecting your delusions equals hatred of the object of your delusions. 

Factfinder

@jack

Personally I thought the "just say no" campaign was a good idea as it promoted standing up to peer pressure and thinking for oneself. 

The ensuing 'war on drugs' was is on the other hand, a miserable failure. 

What is the answer? I don't think there is one right now. The consumption of mind altering substances has been around as long as civilization. Perhaps one day we as a species will move beyond the desire for altered states; but till then I say we closely watch those we love and reduce ingesting contaminated drugs and overdoses to as much as a minimum as possible.

marke

@jack

Yes.  I believe the war on drugs, just like the war against immorality and other wickedness, are good efforts in spite of being thwarted by degenerates.

jack

marke said:

@jack

being thwarted by degenerates.

Hello again, m:

Ahem..  That would be FREE degenerates..

excon

MayCaesar

It has been a pretty universal experience across thousands of years and all geographical regions that the government tinkering with the supply in order to adjust the demand always backfires badly. People need their drug, so to speak, and the only way to make them need it less or not at all is to create a positive change in their lives that makes the drug obsolete - for instance, someone drinking himself into a stupor every night in order to cope with his financial issues could find himself in a better economy, where getting a well-paid job is as easy as creating a LinkedIn page and putting his resume there. But if you take away the drug or make it too available or too unavailable by force, then either it will be overproduced and the economy will tank, or it will be underproduced and people will take increasingly desperate measures to acquire it on the black market. 

Unless you are willing to build a full-on totalitarian state where every step in everyone's life is controlled... In the Soviet Union people did not really do heavy drugs. Was it a great and prosperous society? It was a hellscape.

That the US war on drugs has been so disastrous for everyone involved is natural. People do not do drugs because Mexican cartels flood the US market with them - I operate on the same market as the drug addicts, and I have never done or will do heavy drugs. People do them because something in their life is not going well and they need an outlet to release stress, and in the absence of other clear options, they go for the needle. Quick, easy, works instantly. Destroys your life in the long run? Some people will choose that over living in perpetual misery, a life void of any sensations.

If you want these people to stop doing drugs or not start doing them in the first place, then cultivate a culture in which people aspire to do better. In Japan the heavy drug market is virtually absent, and Mexican cartels would have a very hard time selling anything there: the culture just plain rejects anything they have to offer. No need for the police to do much.

Barnardot

@jack Well, it is still quite rampant; the big drug cartels are continuously at each other's throats to gain control over territories. I bet that you would know that there are wars going on inside the clink between rival suppliers. And all the screws can do is try to keep the balance in order to keep the peace. I once knew a screw and she said that they let the prisoners have their drugs because they are then content and easier to manage.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hi-Jack

@jack

Drugs is as drugs do.

And,

Dorks are as dorks do.

And the war on drugs generates wealth and employment.

And the war on drugs, also makes for good entertainment.

It's just another of those necessary evils.

Barnardot

@Fredsnephew ;It's just another of those necessary evils.

I would hardly call it necessary, though. 

Now, me doing my sister-in-law is a necessary evil. 

marke

@jack ;   That would be FREE degenerates..

I'm not sure what a "free" degenerate is.  The Bible tells us that unsaved sinners are in bondage to sin.

Galatians 5:1

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hmmmmmmmm

@Barnardot

If your sister-in-law is a babe.

Nothing evil in that.


Does she like older men?

jack

marke said:

@jack ;  

I'm not sure what a "free" degenerate is.

Hello again, m:

Of course, you don't understand freedom.  Being ignorant of the Constitution is the hallmark of the cult you belong to, no??   But, when people are free, they'll do things you don't like.  

Ain't this a great country, or what?? 

excon

jack

Fredsnephew said:

@jack

And the war on drugs generates wealth and employment.

Hello nephew:

Bingo!

excon

jack

Factfinder said:

@jack

What is the answer? I don't think there is one right now.

Hello Fact:

Whaaaa???  No solution???  Du*de.  I HAVE a solution, of course.  Keep your frickin hands off my dope.  I say that jocularly, but I'm serious.   Legalize them, make 'em FREE, and provide FREE treatment ON DEMAND..

I say that because addictive drugs ARE as terrible as everybody thinks.  And, MOST addicts know it too.  And, if given their druthers they'd rather be drug free.  But, without treatment ON demand, the addicted REMAIN addicted. 

If they're free, they don't have to rob their corner bodega, or steal from their parents, or bomb Mexico..  Yeah..  I'm putting drug dealers, cops, and jail guards outta business.  So??  Law enforcement isn't a jobs program. 

excon

PS>  To those of you who think snorting a line of cocaine COMPELS you to rob a 7/Eleven, get a life..

Factfinder

@jack

Legalize them, make 'em free and provide FREE treatment ON DEMAND. I say that because addictive drugs ARE as terrible as everybody thinks.  And, MOST addicts know it too.  And, if given their druthers they'd rather be drug free.  But, without treatment ON demand, the addicted REMAIN addicted.

Didn't Oregon try that in 2020? And now they've recriminalized drugs that they had decriminalized because crime and overdoses rose?

https://www.opb.org/article/2024/09/01/oregon-starts-drug-possession-recriminalization/#:~:text=In 2020, Oregon voters approved,and methamphetamine, in the state.

jack

Factfinder said:

@jack

Legalize them, make 'em free and provide FREE treatment ON DEMAND.

Didn't Oregon try that in 2020? And now they've recriminalized drugs that they had decriminalized because crime and overdoses rose?

https://www.opb.org/article/2024/09/01/oregon-starts-drug-possession-recriminalization/#:~:text=In 2020, Oregon voters approved,and methamphene, in the state.

Hello again, F:

Nahhh...  Decriminalization and legalization ain't the same thing.  Not even close.   From your own link, addicts STILL risked jail..  Addicts STILL had to buy their drugs.  Addicts STILL had to PAY for treatment...

State leaders FAILED to make it work..  NONE of that crap would ever work, and I mean EVER.. 

excon

Factfinder

jack said:

Factfinder said:

@jack

Legalize them, make 'em free and provide FREE treatment ON DEMAND.

Didn't Oregon try that in 2020? And now they've recriminalized drugs that they had decriminalized because crime and overdoses rose?

https://www.opb.org/article/2024/09/01/oregon-starts-drug-possession-recriminalization/#:~:text=In 2020, Oregon voters approved,and methamphetamine, in the state.

Hello again, F:

Nahhh...  Decriminalization and legalization ain't the same thing.  Not even close.   From your own link, addicts STILL risked jail..  Addicts STILL had to buy their drugs.  Addicts STILL had to PAY for treatment...

NONE of that crap would ever work, and I mean EVER..

excon

So your point is free drugs for everyone and everyone else will pay all the costs who aren't fool enough to get addicted in the first place? How does that work for the ones that decide to get and stay clean? They get job placement programs allowing for them to cut in line ahead of others legitimately competing for the job, as a reward? How much should we tax people just for this project and then continue to raise and add costly bureaucracies for?  I'm just asking, seriously how would this work? How long are responsible people to pay for self serving irresponsible people to party and be cared for on the public dime?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good party. And I know a line of coke doesn't immediately addict you. But how do we move from partying for fun responsibly enough to avoid addiction; to everyone should get the drugs they want for free for as long as they want, as well as any medical attention needed, at everyone else's expense but the person who lives only to party for free? Who would work when you can party for free as an all expenses paid vacation?

jack

Factfinder said:

So your point is free drugs for everyone and everyone else will pay all the costs who aren't fool enough to get addicted in the first place?

Hello again, Fact:

Oh, I didn't expect you to agree..  The local officials felt the same way, and that's why it failed.  Rather than solve the problem you wanna exact some form of penance for being addicted.

excon

Factfinder

jack said:

Factfinder said:

So your point is free drugs for everyone and everyone else will pay all the costs who aren't fool enough to get addicted in the first place?

Hello again, Fact:

Oh, I didn't expect you to agree..  The local officials felt the same way, and that's why it failed.  Rather than solve the problem you wanna exact some form of penance for being addicted.

excon

Not really some form penance being exacted on them for being addicted, responsibility. Why should people who managed to avoid addiction pay penance for the addicts (?) is more where our disagreement lies.

jack

Factfinder said:

Why should people who managed to avoid addiction pay penance for the addicts (?) is more where our disagreement lies.

Hello again, Fact:

Yeah..  I don't grow corn, so I don't get ANY of the farm subsidy.  Do I like it?  Nahh.   But, it's good for the country.   My drug plan will spend money, and you won't get ANY of it.  Will you like it?  Nahh..  But, it's good for the country. 

excon

Factfinder

jack said:

Factfinder said:

Why should people who managed to avoid addiction pay penance for the addicts (?) is more where our disagreement lies.

Hello again, Fact:

Yeah..  I don't grow corn, so I don't get ANY of the farm subsidy.  Do I like it?  Nahh.   But, it's good for the country.   My drug plan will spend money, and you won't get ANY of it.  Will you like it?  Nahh..  But, it's good for the country. 

excon

Prove it.

Fredsnephew

jack said:

Fredsnephew said:

@jack

And the war on drugs generates wealth and employment.

Hello nephew:

Bingo!

excon

@jack

Hi Jack.

Yep, what would all those people do if everything was legal.

Play Bingo perhaps.

conex.