Democracy just died

Donovon

This is not "Rule by the people." 

I say we have a Democratic oligarchy Elon is not an elected respresetitive but a private citizen he has no jurisdiction over a goverment branch. He was given this position because of his funding of the Donald trump campaign. The national government is the issue while federal still has fair elections. It is only a minority oligarch we still have power as voters in our respective states. 

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: What Can Be Done

1. Congressional oversight: Congress could launch investigations into Musk's access to federal systems and the legality of his actions. They could hold hearings and subpoena relevant officials.

2. Legal challenges: Civil rights organizations or affected individuals could file lawsuits challenging the constitutionality of granting a private citizen access to sensitive government systems.

3. Public pressure: Citizens can contact their representatives, sign petitions, and organize protests to demand action.

4. Media scrutiny: Continued investigative reporting can help expose the full extent of Musk's access and its implications.

5. Executive branch intervention: Career officials within affected agencies could resist implementation of potentially illegal orders and report violations through proper channels.

6. State-level action: State attorneys general could investigate potential violations of state privacy laws resulting from unauthorized access to citizens' data.

7. International pressure: Allied nations could express concern over the security implications of a private citizen accessing sensitive U.S. government systems.

8. Cybersecurity audits: Independent cybersecurity experts could be brought in to assess the extent of access granted and potential vulnerabilities created.

9. Whistleblower protection: Ensuring strong protections for government employees who come forward with information about potential abuses.

10. Legislative action: Congress could pass laws explicitly prohibiting this kind of private access to government systems and strengthening oversight mechanisms.

These actions would aim to restore proper governmental authority, protect citizens' privacy, and uphold democratic norms.

Donovon

@JulesKorngold

I don't know how accurate a lot of these would be
This administration and there afiliates have made it clear laws are not aplicable to them. Trump has already gotten away with 34 felonies I'm sure he won't be abiding by any of these roadblocks we could instate.
The republicans in Congress are not only majority but Trump loyalist I find it unlikley they will accept these bills that could oppose his power.
All of these points can be countered by Trumps executive orders. From someone who should be serving years in prison you can expect illegal measures for everything you just cited.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: You're Right

@Donovon
I have a valid passport.  I hope you do too.

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Come on guys.

@JulesKorngold

Ain't this what all those guns are for.

Donovon

@JulesKorngold

Unfortunately I'm gonna have to wait it out.

jack

Donovon said:

Democracy just died

Hello Donovon:

Yeah..  I think it did.  It's time to go to the mattresses.

excon

Stephen

America has been un-Bidened by what has been.  We wanted a Donald in England. We got a lame duck instead

Donovon

@Stephen
"America has been un-Bidened by what has been."

Are you referring to the unraveling of democracy and the defiance of the constitution, Elaborate? What is un Bidening??

MayCaesar

I think that Trump is a wacko, but I am happy to see Musk taking his job seriously and actually going after the old bureaucracy, following Javier Milei's footsteps. "¡Afuera!" One of the few good things Trump has done is appointing him as the head of the DOGE and listening to his advice. This guy knows how to make a gigantic organization efficient by cutting down all the unnecessary branches, and as long as he does not upset Trump with something and does not fall into disfavor, I expect great things to come out of this. Trump has also tricked his voters by flipping his stance on legal immigration completely, which, again, is a result of Musk's influence.

That said, Trump can do a lot of damage on his own. The tariffs on Canada and Mexico have already been introduced, which is sheer insanity, and now the guy is seriously going after Greenland and risking causing the first war between Western democracies in history. And now the ICE agents are starting to patrol college campuses and harass students...

This is a very weird duo. Will Musk keep Trump's shenanigans in check while pushing his liberalization agenda, or will Trump feel challenged by his influence, snap and kick him out like he has countless former allies? We shall see!

Barnardot

@Stephen ;We wanted a Donald in England

Why? So he could build a wall to stop all those millions of rape-crazy Waki Pakis breaching the floodgates then rampaging through towns knocking off everything with boobs that moves.

polytheistwitch

It’s official: Elon Musk’s staffers have now illegally obtained classified information from the USAID office.

Elon Musk’s staffers entered USAID offices and accessed classified materials without proper clearance. Two senior security officials who tried to stop them were placed on leave. DOGE staffers have since obtained the classified information and carried materials out of the building.

This is what happens when white men feel threatened.

MayCaesar

Of course, it is all about his sex and race. Some people just cannot think about anything else. Never emerged from 1850-s.

Funny enough, Musk specifically is an actual African-American.

Stephen

Barnardot said:

@Stephen ;We wanted a Donald in England

Why? So he could build a wall to stop all those millions of rape-crazy Waki Pakis breaching the floodgates then rampaging through towns knocking off everything with boobs that moves.

You are on the right track except the dam has fkn burst.

Barnardot

@Stephen Jesus effing Christ, that's really bad.
Now, shall I post 85 more examples of white gangs and thugs doing more atrocious things?

What are we up to now.....eleven times you have dodged the issue?

polytheistwitch

Nothing funnier than apartheid, when you're a white man.

BryceChristensen

Argument Topic: Since when was democracy good?

Folks have claimed democracy is dead many times.  Folks even claim democracy is good.  I'm dubious of both claims. 

Democracy is simple majority rule and is the recipe for the majority to abuse the minority while claiming at least it is popular.  I don't live in a democracy, thank goodness.

I am of the opinion that it is a problem for Musk, in the capacity of a private citizen, has access to Federal systems that other private citizens do not have access to.  I do think that the Federal Government having systems that are not open to the public are problematic outside a few items pertaining to national security (and I think that blanket is abused as well). 

But Musk is working as, if not an appointee of the current administration, at least a contractor (I admit I'm not certain of the legality of the Department of Governmental Efficiency, but I do think that if they do what they claim, it'll be long overdue).  The Federal government grants access to appointees and contractors all the time. 

So I'm not quite to the point of being ready to say the sky is falling yet.  I think we have seen worse behavior from previous administrations.  But hey, we haven't even hit the 100 day mark yet, so there is still time.

polytheistwitch

This agency pays out federal funds for the government. It's set up to be neutral and secure. Musk but both of those at risk and now has access to all the personal information in the system including social security numbers and addresses. 

MayCaesar

BryceChristensen said:

Folks have claimed democracy is dead many times.  Folks even claim democracy is good.  I'm dubious of both claims. 

Democracy is simple majority rule and is the recipe for the majority to abuse the minority while claiming at least it is popular.  I don't live in a democracy, thank goodness.

I am of the opinion that it is a problem for Musk, in the capacity of a private citizen, has access to Federal systems that other private citizens do not have access to.  I do think that the Federal Government having systems that are not open to the public are problematic outside a few items pertaining to national security (and I think that blanket is abused as well). 

But Musk is working as, if not an appointee of the current administration, at least a contractor (I admit I'm not certain of the legality of the Department of Governmental Efficiency, but I do think that if they do what they claim, it'll be long overdue).  The Federal government grants access to appointees and contractors all the time. 

So I'm not quite to the point of being ready to say the sky is falling yet.  I think we have seen worse behavior from previous administrations.  But hey, we haven't even hit the 100 day mark yet, so there is still time.

This is what I find puzzling. The same people who celebrated Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning leaking classified data, calling them "heroes", now suddenly have a problem with Musk merely looking at the data. And unlike Snowden who was an NSA employee, pretty much the embodiment of an executor of the surveillance state, Musk does not have a history of working for black ops organizations.

The double standards are astonishing. Musk himself used to be a hero of "the left": a green guy who made electric cars mainstream, who supported immigration (as an immigrant himself), who built AI when the American Conservatives were trying to ban the research... But as soon as he said a few things they disagreed with, he became a villain. And now he is a beneficiary of Apartheid, apparently, according to some.

It is no wonder that nobody likes you guys. You have no principles other than "The person must agree with me on everything, or he is a scumbag". Well, enjoy all the "scumbags" standing up against you.

polytheistwitch

Musk didn't just look at it he copied it and walked out with it. His cars are hunks of s***. If they catch on fire they're dangerous. Not to mention if you have to charge an electric car using the same fossil fuels as the car is running on gasoline your car doesn't do anything new. There's a big difference between stealing information to be a whistleblower and stealing information because you're going to use it to harm people. I have never voted Democrat so quit assuming that I'm some sort of lover of the left. I choose issues and take a stand on them according to my moral ground not what party I'm a member of.

BryceChristensen

@MayCaesar I am confused what you are saying.  I'm not on the left.  I'm on the border between "conservative" and "libertarian".  Classical liberal perhaps. 

I have a mixed opinion on Musk and I had a mixed opinion on him before he signed on with Trump.  I think SpaceX is really cool.  His push for blanket return to office made me seriously question his leadership skills, as clearly whatever organizations can effectively operate using remote workers will be at a competitive advantage.

Nobody likes folks like me because we actually ask if something works, not just if we have our hearts in the right place when we do stuff.

Stephen

Barnardot said:

@Stephen Jesus effing Christ, that's really bad.
Now, shall I post 85 more examples of white gangs and thugs doing more atrocious things?

What are we up to now.....eleven times you have dodged the issue?

Show what the fk you like. I have said we have enough maniacs and rapists of our own without having to put up with imported maniacs and rapist that would rather bite the hands that feeds them than try to intergrade into the adopted country of THIER OWN CHOICE, you clown 
 Iv'e dogged nothing.  I have shown you enough evidence that the multicultural experiment has failed all across Europe. To the point where even the leaders that created this chaotic dangerous and violent  situation had admitted themselves  that "it has failed".  You just can't face facts. Even the left wing Mirror has to admit its all gone tits up.

Moroccan asylum seeker Ahmed Alid, 45, is accused of stabbing 70-year-old Terrence Carney to death as he walked down the street in Hartlepool after already attacking his housemate

MayCaesar

I did not make it clear who I was talking about, sorry... I did not mean anyone in particular on these forums. I was talking about the public's reaction to Musk's actions at large.

Donovon

@Stephen

Yes some immigrants are bad when we have an influx of millions of people statistically there are going to be some depraved individuals but they do not represent the majority while yes immigrants have murdered old women I can also think of a lot of American born citizens who have brutally mutilated and murdered the elderly. It is horrific no matter what person commits it. Yet you use examples of death to represent immigrants this is a minority of the illegals we let in who commit violent crime.

Donovon

@BryceChristensen To debunk this claim Musk is not a contractor as of February 3 2025 to be a contractor for the government you need a contract signed. his organization DOGE is not a federal department or a contracting agency so why do they have the legality to be able to cut funds and redirect funding to national treasury payments. I understand contractors who develop military weapons, or make government software, But controlling treasury payments that defines income for millions? Scott Benson was sworn in as Secretary of the Treasury so why is a contractor redirecting government money of which he has no jurisdiction over and has not sworn an oath to maintain?

Barnardot

@Stephen ;put up with imported maniacs and rapist 

Name just one. You can't because I bet your country has not imported even one. 

And are you still focusing on Pakistanis. Has the UK imported even more maniacs and rapists from the USA, Scandanavia, Australia and France....because, Jesus, white people make up 85% of all the rapist gangs.

I tell you what it could be....like these maniacal rapist Pakistanis drooling at the mouth with bulging eyes and bulging pants and with multiple rape convictions, bribe the UK passport officials when they get off the boats to let them in....is that what you are trying to say?

It probably has nothing to do with decent, law-abiding citizens immigrating then learning nasty, sick things off the bad-ar*sed whites has it?....Ooooh no way Hosay. At least, not in your book.

So, given that it has nothing to do with the immigrants themselves since gang violence is far more prevalent with white folk born there, do you think that there might be something in your water supply that makes them turn like that after they get there?

Stephen

Barnardot said:

@Stephen ;put up with imported maniacs and rapist 

Name just one. You can't because I bet your country has not imported even one. 

And are you still focusing on Pakistanis.

Wrong.... AGAIN!!! This is a different subject. You have brought into it comments from another thread. Look above thicko. I gave you "ONE". He was MORROCCAN

Moroccan asylum seeker Ahmed Alid, 45, is accused of stabbing 70-year-old Terrence Carney to death as he walked down the street in Hartlepool after already attacking his housemate

 But there are a more



here's another "ONE" 

Syrian refugee, 19, who killed veteran, 86, with one punch after the pensioner shouted racist insults at him for smoking cannabis is sentenced to four years in a young offenders' institution for manslaughter

• Frank Fishwick died in hospital after being hit in the face by Mohammed Al Araaj
• The 19-year-old Syrian refugee was smoking cannabis in a stairwell when he was confronted by Mr Fishwick who asked him to move before using racist language . 
• 
  
• And Another 
  
  Lawangeen Abdulrahimzai, 21, an Afghan asylum seeker who has been found guilty of the murder of Thomas Roberts (

  Image: PA)Triple killer asylum seeker who murdered 'perfect boy' in e-scooter row jailed for life

  Afghani asylum seeker Lawangeen Abdulrahimzai, 21, murdered 21-year-old Thomas Roberts outside a Subway sandwich shop in Bournemouth after being freed for a double murder in Serbia

  
  More examples  on request.  Off you go now.

Donovon

Are you implying all immigrants committ eldercide?

marke

@Donovon

Marke:  The new popularly elected Trump government has democrats screaming bloody murder because the new administration is uncovering wicked corruption that has been channeling taxpayer dollars to insiders and leftist causes by the hundreds of billions of dollars, resulting in high costs for all Americans from the strain on the US treasury and economy.

jack

marke said:

The new popularly elected Trump government has democrats screaming bloody murder because the new administration is uncovering wicked corruption

Hello m:

Yeah.  I saw his flapping gums.   But, one wonders, since corruption is a CRIME, why hasn't anyone been arrested??  Just curious. 

excon

marke

@jack ; 
 But, one wonders, since corruption is a CRIME, why hasn't anyone been arrested??  Just curious. 

Marke:  Like you, my hope and prayer is that since we now have honest administrators and investigators in the US Justice Department we will finally see crooks charged for their crimes instead of covering up the crimes of protected criminals.

jack

marke said:

@jack ; 
 But, one wonders, since corruption is a CRIME, why hasn't anyone been arrested??  Just curious. 

Marke:  Like you, my hope and prayer is that since we now have honest administrators and investigators in the US Justice Department we will finally see crooks charged for their crimes instead of covering up the crimes of protected criminals.

Hello again m:

Hope and prayer is all you got because, if there WAS actual corruption, Trumps Justice Department would be on it like white on rice. He would like nothing more than to see the evil dems frogmarched off to jail. It takes 10 minutes to file charges in court.   

But, NOTHING, huh?  You've been LIED to.   REAL corruption cannot be ferreted out by looking at a balance sheet.  Only a simpleton would believe that you could.

excon

marke

@jack

Marke:  The judge who put a halt to Trump's freezing of USAID just reversed himself after it was revealed that he (the judge) had been personally given more than $100 million from USAID funds, and that is just a snowball on the tip of the corrupt democrat USAID funding iceberg.  Biden's EPA gave Stacey Abrams $2 billion just before the end of the corrupt Biden presidency.  Who can justify such blatant theft and corruption?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Donovon ; Musk is an agent of the Government assigned by the Executive Officer, President Trump...this is precedent protected and completely normal.

Illegal migrants are criminals, there is not warrant needed to detain, investigate, those who have broken immigration law.

jack

marke said:

@jack

The judge who put a halt to Trump's freezing of USAID just undid his freeze after it was revealed that he (the judge) had been personally given more than $100 million from USAID funds, and that is just a snowball on the tip of the corrupt democrat USAID funding iceberg.  Biden's EPA gave Stacey Abrams $2 billion just before the end of the corrupt Biden presidency.  Who can justify such blatant theft and corruption?

Hello again, m:

All this corruption.. Here, there, and everywhere.

Yet, NOT a sole in jail..  Hmmm

excon

marke

@jack

Marke:  You are right.  After years of theft, fraud, abuse, and corruption the biggest democrat beneficiaries and operators of the massive corruption have still never been charged.

Donovon

@RickeyHoltsclaw ;

Musk did not go through the proper procedures to be considered a federal entity you have to go through Congress that is how a democracy works our representatives make those decisions under law musk has no right to any federal database he is a private citizen therefore he has no legal authority to be making such decisions. and I want to hear how you've justified him spending federal funds.Trump swore to protect democracy but by skipping over operations our government has upholded for hundreds of years and inacting musk he might as well have sweared our constitution and hell after getting rid of the 14th amendment he basicly just shoved it up his .

And my stance on immigration, 
I also find it ironic how we don't focus on the Canadian border crisis and how we just had the highest amount of illegal Canadian immigrants in the past 10 years but that isn't making headlines.
Well I think there should be a legal process no border jumpers we can agree on that.Though I think its unjust to deport families with no criminal record to separate mother's from there children to remove a child who was born in this country but then displace them because there parents were illegal. We claimed to be a prosperous nation for all people but we give them the American dream let them contribute to the economy, pay taxes, and then we detain them and we even dump assulyum seekers who are at risk of violence back in the same horrific scenario, That is cruel. 

Donovon

@marke

"Marke:  The new popularly elected Trump government has democrats screaming bloody murder because the new administration is uncovering wicked corruption that has been channeling taxpayer dollars to insiders and leftist causes by the hundreds of billions of dollars, resulting in high costs for all Americans from the strain on the US treasury and economy."

Your quite dramatic.
I don't understand why republicans think we had a strained economy? I won't denie supposed corruption because I'm not versed in that particular chaos but we have the greatest economy in the world? Number 1 out of 253 countries and 9 billion people if that's what you think strain is I'de love your definition of prospureous.

marke

Trump is rescuing America from the democrat party rule by leftist government bureaucratocity.

marke

Trump is rescuing America from the democrat party rule by leftist government bureaucratocity.

Donovon

@marke

Stop spouting nonsense and debate.
Also what buerochracy are you referring too because public schools are buricratic, the military is buricratic, FBI, any community colleges, police, Who knew education was leftist and we get the military too,
I recommend looking up the definition before slinging such terms at an opponent.

marke

@Donovon

Marke:  I applaud Trump's move to rid our schools of incompetent teachers, racist teachers, and perverts.  I applaud Trump and administration officials rooting out the same corruption and degeneracy in all government departments and agencies.

Donovon

@marke

Please explain to me why bureaucracy in schools is bad.
Because bureaucracy in schools is what separates a superintendent from a teacher a teacher from a student..Do you want no structure in schools do you want your child to be in the same hierarchal position as there teacher?

Joeseph

     Trump has humiliated himself in front of the world as China outplayed his every move now the id-ot is saying he won't talk to China after boasting the phones were burnng off the hook as the whole world begged for a deal, he's propped up by a team of pathetic  sycophants who applaud his crass st-pidity......

I watched in astonishment at a video clip sent to me by an American woman of Trumps spiritual advisor speaking in tounges in the white house ( one of Just lyings lot) and this witch has Trumps ear ....is anyone concerned? Oh BTW she will sell you your own personal guardian angel for 1,000 dollars ......

America is now a dictatorship.....

marke

@Donovon

I don't oppose administrations in schools and businesses that do not support uncivilized leftist wokism ideology and degeneracy.