Free Will and Gods Will cant Co-Exist

Factfinder

@Roley

Generally speaking it's our will that prevails where possible as we are affirmed in reality and are observable. Where as any imaginary god is not seen and all natural phenomenon that is observable reveals no supernatural interaction, just natural activity. So there is no reason to suspect a god with a will is in existence.

Roley

@Factfinder not necessarily our will is largely determined by our conscious thought, but our conscious thought is deeply impacted by our sub-conscious thought which uses feeling rather than words to direct us in its direction. Example: standing outside of a party our will is to enter the party suddenly from the subconscious arises a dreadful feeling of anxiety, butterfly's in the stomach our conscious thinking mind wants to enter because there's fun to be had but our diabolical sub-conscious delivers sever discomfort thwarting any joy we might have mind. in this scenario whether we enter the party our not our free will to have a good time is decimated by something else's will that we don't have a good time so who's will is at play? the conscious? or the unconscious it cant be both because the wills are contradictory and in direct conflict with each other so which will in this case would be the free will?      

Factfinder

@Roley

"Will" is a construct of the biological brain, not in any way because of some outside "will". It is our sub conscious that tells our heart to beat, eyes to blink and our lungs to breath. Yes, we can stop those things or regulate them to some degree, but make no mistake about it, it is your sub conscious that keeps you alive while you're asleep or not even thinking about maintaining a heart beat. What you described is simply our inherent instincts of self preservation and social acceptance and the dynamics that both entail when deciding on what we participate in and what we don't.

Roley

@Factfinder while i agree completely with how you have described the biological process that affirms both conscious and sun-conscious thought our idea of 'Free Will' is said to be derived from our conscious thinking awake brain this free will supposedly enables us to make subjectively free unhindered decisions as to the course we take however we are then informed that a deeper more primal part of the brain 'Sub-Conscious' is responsible for how we feel at any given time, how we feel as conscious humans impacts are day to day conscious decision making if i want to eat a hamburger i 'will' eat a hamburger however if my 'stomach feels upset' i may become convinced by what we call 'sub conscious thought' to not eat the hamburger my awake conscious brain desires or wills to eat.

What i cannot fathom is how the two seemingly separate and conflicting wills are reconciled in to one complete 'free will' there are 2 wills at play, the will of the conscious awake brain and the will of the subconscious unawake brain, how can it be said that i have free will when what i Want what i Will to occur can be so easily thwarted by the feelings sub-conscious though unleash upon the body. 

I want the hamburger, my will is to eat the hamburger am i really expected to believe i have 'free will' when my stomach 'for the greater good of my body' can tell my awakened Brain "No! sorry buddy not today no hamburgers for you, oh you tryna defy the will of me the mighty subconscious? well now you feel sick how bout that go ahead have your burger sick boy" while the subconscious doesn't in reality  talk like this my conscious thinking brain understands the instruction full well wether i want to eat the burger or not the will of my subconscious feeling mind will always triumph in that it can seemingly make my own will severely uncomfortable to enact thus thwarting 'My' so called free will from within  

Factfinder

@Roley

Simply put freewill can not be absolute. One need not overthink it to arrive at that conclusion. I will to fly to mars and have a picnic today, but that doesn't matter. I can't do that even if I want to more than anything. You may want to stop thoughts from entering your mind but you can't because 'will' is restricted in any scenario. Even with an imaginary god. What if said god (the Christian one say) wanted to build a brick too heavy for it to lift? According to scripture nothing is impossible for that god to do but that one simple axiom debunks that whole idea and shows their god does not posses unlimited freewill will despite biblical claims saying it does. 

Roley

@Factfinder lets talk about 'that God' the religious say earth is Gods enacted will through us yet earth is a shambles, a hellhole, an abomination to most of the population, the religious are quick to denounce money as the root of all evil yet the religious all seem to stem from Good unbroken homes full of money, the churches they attend thrive through the donation of money in some cases they go on to become a Joel Osteen church with money literally falling out of the walls. apparently God detests money yet of the earth is Gods will enacted then it seems God prefers obnoxious amounts of money be in the hands of the most evil in our society. i left to wonder how the religious folk reconcile this among their may other flawed illogical ways of thinking.

I myself am stuck in the circumstance of believing fully in a God yet subject to an intense amount of misery and toil in life, I'm left to wonder about the God of religious folks and how it can be that the God i believe in 'The universe itself' can be so cruel while the religious God is also overwhelmingly cruel, what is it that makes Gods cruel i mean the religious God sure does seem to support Joel Osteen and the all the Rolexes he desires, religious God has granted Kenneth Copeland with 7 leer jets yet he's me with my relatively honest and humble belief in a simple God is everything subjected to a toil that i think is directing me towards war with said God. why shouldn't io Give in and give God the war of words and recrimination he wants i have the high ground after all as i am not directly responsible in the same way as a creators capacity for the evil that exists on this world. If religious God does exist it sure seems 'that god' has a lot to atone and answer for.

When i meet my God and if permitted to ask a question i might just be inclined to ask Him specifically why he choose to lavish such grace upon the most evil people in this world like Kenneth Copeland while seeming to completely ignoring the prayers of the genuine, i mean who, who is genuine in prayer begging God to end evil has had their prayers answered? Until Evil ends Gods Will  from any religious or moral perspective is certainly questionable if not outright identifiable as one in the same as evil in that Evil rules this world as the religious consistently tell us God rules the world, well the world God rules is pretty disgustingly evil then isn't it, the world where God places unimaginable volumes of money in that hands of a Diddy, an Epstein, a Zoros, a Gates if God rules then God directs where God directs money is very questionable almost as if religious is just one big ancient scam designed by evil men to keep money in the hands of the most evil and out of the hand s of those who would use it for some form of morally identifiable 'Good'

just incase God is listening ... we've followed the money God and all paths lead to you can you tell us why you have set the world up in such a way? do you really think you will be able to pull of the old last minute switch-a-roo in revelations here comes the God of Good after 5000 years of unimaginable suffering inflicted upon not just us but the dinosaurs before us? merciful? yeah sure!  

polytheistwitch

All the gods exist. There is no free will.

ZeusAres42

Libertarian free will would literally entail that we would be able to defy the laws of nature. With or without God, it doesn't exist. Without God, we are tied to natural laws; with him, we are bound by his creationary vision. It appears that only God (if one exists) and is omnipotent has true libertarian free will. That is what supernatural power is. And only God has this law defying power. And any attempts to subject God's omnipotence to anthropological limitations is, quite frankly, a ludicrous contradiction in terms.

Roley

@ZeusAres42 haven't herd it put that way before, to be honest it makes perfect sense free will actual true free will would only exist in the super natural here on earth out will is bound by the circumstance of nature and the populous of wills in direct contest with our own, we would need to be alone to experience true free will and only a God would have enough power to be truly alone enough to experience true free will. this lines up with the religious texts that state no one can see Gods face and live acknowledging that God is truly alone. This explains a lot as to the perceived nature of Gods will and how disconnected this can appear in comparison to our scrambled yet some how collective will   

Joeseph

I'm an of advocate of what is called  “illusionism”, the idea that although free will as conventionally defined is unreal, it’s crucial people go on believing  because the implications of such a belief can be traumatic to say the least

Roley

@Joeseph i say we shatter the belief and shatter the lie religion has told without the poison of religion people will be forced to rethink their circumstances on an individual level free of the control mechanism religion is and always has been maybe then we will get to see the mega rich fall i for one would like to see more than a fall for the mega rich i would like to experiment on them as they have us. then when i face God i can explain the concept of an eye for an eye using myself as an example of the pitfalls of it what can God then say? that he didn't grant Moses and the Jews this cynical law? 

21CenturyIconoclast

@ZeusAres42, @Roley ;


ZEUSARES42; YOUR QUOTE RELATING TO THE SERIAL KILLER JESUS AS GOD:  " Libertarian free will would literally entail that we would be able to defy the laws of nature. With or without God, it doesn't exist. "

Listen up and learn for 'Christ's sake!"   The dumbfounded Pseudo-Christians DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL because the serial killer Jesus as god controls all of their lives which is his "plan" for them as biblically shown below!


1.  “The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the LORD” (Proverbs 16:33).  

2.  "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand (Proverbs 19:21).

3.  "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps" (Proverbs 16:9).

4. “Oh Lord, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with ALL my ways.” (Psalm 139:1-3)

5.  “The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.” (Proverbs 16:1)

6. “He PREDESTINED us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,” (Ephesians 1:5)

JESUS SAID: "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." (Jeremiah 29:11).

BOTTOM LINE; NO FREE WILL FOR PSEUDO-CHRISTIANS, PERIOD!

 


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Templar

@ZeusAres42, @21stCenturyIconoclast

Well, do you believe we have free will, the ability to choose

"Cogito, ergo sum", René Descartes, 1637 ad

You're taking the Teachings of John Calvin to be universal Christian dogma. I'm Sorry, my friend, but you would be wrong. 

Joeseph

@Templar

I don't believe we have free will,  nor can a god if he existed as he would know all his future decisions otherwise he's not all powerful .

Why are you bringing Descarte into it?

Also Descarte was wrong,  as to be consistent will his extreme scepticism he should have said " There are thoughts " instead of " I think" that part is presumptious and inconsistent with extreme scepticism.

polytheistwitch

@Templar Free Will isn't just making choices. That's freedom. 

21CenturyIconoclast

@Templar

TEMPLAR; YOUR CONTINUED BIBLE STU-PID QUOTE:  "Well, do you believe we have free will, the ability to choose."

What part of my post in the link below didn't you understand you blatant BIBLE FOOL?!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/207230/#Comment_207230

Therefore, where primitive thinking pseudo-christians like YOU need to actually read your barbaric bible next time before you make yourself the continued BIBLE DUNCE, where as shown in the link above, YOU DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL, as a pseudo-christian!


NEXT?



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marke

@Factfinder

Marke:
There are certain aspects of the human will that God will not violate.  For example, He is not willing that any should reject Jesus and go to hell but He will allow sinners to do that of their own will nonetheless.

Factfinder

marke said:

@Factfinder

Marke:
There are certain aspects of the human will that God will not violate.  For example, He is not willing that any should reject Jesus and go to hell but He will allow sinners to do that of their own will nonetheless.

What an inconsistent god then; if it were real that is. Making choices doesn't define freewill as being forced into a sadistic ultimatum of by a psychotic homicidal narcissist isn't an example of freewill. If god were not willing that none should suffer then none would or your god's will doesn't prevail as your bible claims. And finally the last fallacy you presented in your response: "sinners" is an irrelevant, useless, meaningless reference to humans that serves no purpose and is insignificant in reality. It is attached to humans as a tool of manipulation and that's why no other species is born a "sinner". 

marke

@Factfinder

Marke:  God does not force any sinner to repent of his sins and be saved.

Factfinder

marke said:

@Factfinder

Marke:  God does not force any sinner to repent of his sins and be saved.

There is no value in the term "sinner" as it has no meaning and there is no reason to think a god exist. The very idea that something I say or do will influence what your elf god predetermined and foresaw, and foreknew I would do before I or anything else it created existed, will save me from itself cause of unbelief it supposedly knows doesn't change via the aforementioned foreknowledge, is insane. You get that, right? Do you not see that saying "we have to choose" isn't freewill by any standard and it is lunacy to think it even can be under these circumstances?

marke

@Factfinder

Marke:  Think of Hitler as a clear example of a "sinner" and maybe that will help.

Factfinder

@marke

Marke:  Think of Hitler as a clear example of a "sinner" and maybe that will help.

Hitler was a bad man by all historical accounts.

"Sinner" has no meaning except in religious contexts under mythological underpinnings of requiring acknowledgment and submission in order to avert extreme punishments. The only example of a "sinner" Hitler could have been lies in the fact he conformed to Christianity, a religious entity to wit "sinner" can have meaning. He justified his atrocities as a result of the belief he was punishing Jews for their idolatry and blasphemies as "god" desired in the scriptures. The only reason society uses the term "sinner" is because of it's reference/allusions to it's invention in religious realms which isn't quite the same thing as a moral judgment cause of criminal activity.

marke

@Factfinder

You don't have to call violent, hateful, disruptful, criminal, or uncivilized humans sinners if you don't like the term. 

Factfinder

@marke

You don't have to call violent, hateful, disruptful, criminal, or uncivilized humans sinners if you don't like the term. 

But of course you can't be honest and state your true belief; you call everyone "sinners" cause they're human, not cause of their lifestyles. And believers count on their faith ridding them of that title after death because a specific belief in a specific elf god and accompanying lore. Those adjectives you list have nothing to do with that fabricated term "sinner" and you knew that before you lied. A pattern I recognize in Christians a lot.