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Burning the flag should be illegal.

2»



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    Arguments


  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -  
    @Vaulk

    History is full of examples like this. Just Trump's travel ban is an example: the majority of people considered it wrong, yet it still came to pass. Or with Vietnam war, which had a very negative reaction in the society, yet still was started. This is what the government is for: to prevent assumingly ignorant civilians from throwing the country around based on what crosses their mind at the moment. This is how the system was designed, and this is how it works.

    If the society takes a strong stance against something, rioting constantly, then, of course, the government will be forced to reconsider. But I do not see mass protests over someone burning a colored piece of cloth. Not in the 21st century.

    I am aware of the FPA existing in the past. Slavery also existed at some point. But we move forward as a society and learn better than maintain laws protecting idols over free speech. That is my stance, and so far from my observations the vast majority of people in this nation agree with me.

    ---

    Regardless, it is all beside the topic. I was simply pointing out that your objection was not logical, and my opinion on that has not changed.
  • PotterWatchPotterWatch 41 Pts   -  
    Well. You're supposed to burn the flag if it gets dirty and when you retire it. So are you including this as well or are you just talking about flag burning in protest?
  • Polaris95Polaris95 147 Pts   -  
    The US flag is just an ordinary flag. Worshipping it is , and so is pledging allegiance to it. People should be allowed to burn it, because they aren't harming anybody when they do so. Not allowing people to burn it, is patriotism to the level of insanity.
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 493 Pts   -   edited July 2018
    From US code title 4 chapter 1 subsection 8:

    "No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
    (a)
    The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
    (b)
    The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
    (c)
    The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
    (d)
    The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
    (e)
    The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
    (f)
    The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
    (g)
    The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
    (h)
    The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
    (i)
    The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
    (j)
    No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
    (k)
    The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning."

    Now for those who are outraged over burning the flag in protest, where is your outrage over any of these other points that are violated day after day by millions of Americans? At least burning the flag in protest, while you may disagree with, is the very thing that makes this country free. Try burning the Chinese flag in China and you'll never be seen again. It's beautiful that here in America we have the freedom to do that without repercussion from the government. However when you wear a T-shirt with the flag on it, it's very contradictory. Those that wear it on a shirt do so to show they love the country, yet that very act is disrespectful of the flag in the code I posted above.

    Personally I'm fine with people burning the flag in protest. I understand why others aren't. However I respect consistency, if you argue against burning the flag in protest I expect you to speak out when any part of this code is violated.
  • Okay this needs a declaration to the common defense of a general welfare rather quickly. The argument made against prosecution of the burning of the American flag is the charge for burning an American flag might be Treason, espionage, maybe even sabotage. However the united State shared with the destruction of a United States American flag and fire is.

    When an American flag is discarded, disgraced, or worn to the point of unfit burning becomes a method of disposal. The precedent is protesting by burning the flag is simply following the instruction on proper removal of that flag from public use. So the idea of First Amendment as the reasons behind not charge does not offset the double standard of burning by order of disposal.

    Really the Irony here is that the charge of treason, espionage, and sabotage are really there to insure the flag improperly used, dishonored, and disgraced can be taken and destroyed properly by those who may have simply plagiarize its sufferings.

  • @YeshuaBought

    If disgusting speech is OK, then there should not be any efforts to silence "hate speech"
  • with_all_humilitywith_all_humility 222 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    I personally don't think "Flag Buring" should not be protected speech.  It has incited violence in many instances, which is one of the criteria for controlled speech. Not all speech is protected by the First Amendment. Speech that creates a clear and present danger to the public may be controlled! 

    However, due to the corrupt teachings of the liberal universities, many antiestablishment moments have come about.  Such as ANTIFA and Socialist movements.  Many of these groups are currently using violence and radical protest to get media attention.  Such action often incites violence, and therefore should not be allowed.  But the liberal agenda and anti-Trump movement are using such vehicles to do their dirty work.  Just this week CNN anchors justified the violence put on by ANTIFA https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/alec-sears/2018/08/14/cnn-justifies-antifa-violence-fight-fire-fire ;

    These are dangerous times in our society, many young people are being lured into thinking socialism is the solution because of wannabe lawmakers making promises of free health care and advanced education. There is nothing in life that is free...everything has an associated cost. The question becomes who will bear the burden of the cost.  

    Flag burning is equivalent to spitting in the face of the men and women who have served in defense of this country.  The time to burn the US Flag is when our government has fallen into the hands of territory.  When we have a collapse of the three branches of government...which is when there will no longer be the USA.

    For those who support such actions.  What purpose is served by destroying a symbol that represents freedom?  
  • @sear

    The U.S. flag is the SYMBOL of our nation, much as a picture of your mother is a symbol of her.
    So if her house were ablaze, and you rushed inside, what would you save? Your mother? Or the picture of your mother, leaving her there to her excruciating demise being slowly consumed by flame?

    What a fallacy!  Your analogy is not representative of the discussion. Using your analogy in relation to flag burning would be...The capital is on fire...Save the flag not the people.

    Instead, your analogy should be allowing the burning of the US Flag is like allowing a person to burn your mother's photo because he/she does not like what she has said.
  • with_all_humilitywith_all_humility 222 Pts   -   edited August 2018
    For those who support defaming the US Flag.  Got to Walter Reed Hospital and look at the personal sacrifices that many men and women have made for the citizens who don't serve in defense of the USA.

    The US Flag is such a powerful symbol that men risk their lives while in the heat of a battle to raise the symbol of freedom to encourage others to continue the fight against enemies of our nation and our way of life. 



    Why would you want to burn such a symbol?  No, it is not worshipped like a God as some like to claim...It is simply a symbol of this countries history and the sacrifices that it took to get us to be the nation we are today.  If you don't agree with the policies of our lawmakers, protest them, not the symbol that represents the people as a whole. 
  • From US code title 4 chapter 1 subsection 8:

    "No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
    (a)
    The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
    (b)
    The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
    (c)
    The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
    (d)
    The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
    (e)
    The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
    (f)
    The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
    (g)
    The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
    (h)
    The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
    (i)
    The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
    (j)
    No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
    (k)
    The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning."

    Now for those who are outraged over burning the flag in protest, where is your outrage over any of these other points that are violated day after day by millions of Americans? At least burning the flag in protest, while you may disagree with, is the very thing that makes this country free. Try burning the Chinese flag in China and you'll never be seen again. It's beautiful that here in America we have the freedom to do that without repercussion from the government. However when you wear a T-shirt with the flag on it, it's very contradictory. Those that wear it on a shirt do so to show they love the country, yet that very act is disrespectful of the flag in the code I posted above.

    Personally I'm fine with people burning the flag in protest. I understand why others aren't. However I respect consistency, if you argue against burning the flag in protest I expect you to speak out when any part of this code is violated.
    Being a member of the Armed Services for 28 years, when I see the flag being disrespected.  I politely inform individuals of their actions, and I'm not the only person who does this many of my coworkers do the same.  We recognize the importance of our nation's symbol.  

    Come and join me one day at work, would love you to show the cost of your freedom and the ability to raise that flag.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    "I personally don't think "Flag Buring" should not be protected speech.  It has incited violence in many instances, which is one of the criteria for controlled speech. Not all speech is protected by the First Amendment. Speech that creates a clear and present danger to the public may be controlled! "

    That's pretty Orwellian of you to say. Speech should not be controlled in any way. This creates a slippery slope. 

    "However, due to the corrupt teachings of the liberal universities, many antiestablishment moments have come about.  Such as ANTIFA and Socialist movements.  Many of these groups are currently using violence and radical protest to get media attention.  Such action often incites violence, and therefore should not be allowed."

    It is different for violence to incite violence, but words or speech should never be controlled. If speech had beenbcontrolled in Martin Luther King Jr. days, racial equality may have never come about. MLK would have been arrested, and blacks would still be sitting on the back of the bus.

      "But the liberal agenda and anti-Trump movement are using such vehicles to do their dirty work.  Just this week CNN anchors justified the violence put on by ANTIFA https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/alec-sears/2018/08/14/cnn-justifies-antifa-violence-fight-fire-fire ;"

    Sorry, I don't rely on media outlets of any kind, and I'm not interested in controlled opposition organizations.

    "These are dangerous times in our society,"

    If you pay attention to media outlets, yes, these times may sees dangerous to you. The danger is not the people or what they say, it is a corrupt government.

    " many young people are being lured into thinking socialism is the solution because of wannabe lawmakers making promises of free health care and advanced education. There is nothing in life that is free...everything has an associated cost. The question becomes who will bear the burden of the cost."

    A bit irrelevant.

    "Flag burning is equivalent to spitting in the face of the men and women who have served in defense of this country. "

    Nope, I disagree. Taking someone's right to say what they want, or do what they want with their own property is equivalent to spitting in the face of the men and women who have served in defense of this country. 

    " The time to burn the US Flag is when our government has fallen into the hands of territory.  When we have a collapse of the three branches of government...which is when there will no longer be the USA."

    Which is what we basically have now. You would see this if you paid close attention.

    "For those who support such actions.  What purpose is served by destroying a symbol that represents freedom?"

    Symbols are bad. Protecting and basically worshipping a dyed cloth should not be forced on anyone. People have the right to protest peacefully, and destroying one's own property is peaceful.  

    "For those who support defaming the US Flag.  Got to Walter Reed Hospital and look at the personal sacrifices that many men and women have made for the citizens who don't serve in defense of the USA."

    And if the free people in a free country have their rights taken from them, their sacrifices would be in vain.

    "The US Flag is such a powerful symbol that men risk their lives while in the heat of a battle to raise the symbol of freedom to encourage others to continue the fight against enemies of our nation and our way of life. "



    This is due to deep levels of mind control. They have convinced everyone that the dyed cloth represents something that it doesn't. If the cloth is burned no one gets hurt. Your grandchildren are fine. Take the right to free speech away from them however, and future generations will inevitably be silenced. 

    "Why would you want to burn such a symbol?  No, it is not worshipped like a God as some like to claim...It is simply a symbol of this countries history and the sacrifices that it took to get us to be the nation we are today.  If you don't agree with the policies of our lawmakers, protest them, not the symbol that represents the people as a whole."

    That is the purpose of burning the flag, to show dissent. Some people don't see the dyed cloth as a symbol for anything but the corrupt government it stands for.

    "Being a member of the Armed Services for 28 years, when I see the flag being disrespected.  I politely inform individuals of their actions, and I'm not the only person who does this many of my coworkers do the same.  We recognize the importance of our nation's symbol."

    And you also recognize the right to politely inform individuals' of their actions, presumably that what they are doing (peacefully protesting) is like doing something they are not (disrespecting our ancestors).

    "Come and join me one day at work, would love you to show the cost of your freedom and the ability to raise that flag."

    While you try to take a bit of that freedom away?
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • Again burning the flag is not really the speech which is being protected. We are protecting the double standard of how a flag is destroyed when disrespected or worn. People who burn the American flag have already disrespected the United States flag in the first place. It is kind of like the number of people who will abuse the American United States Constitution They do it but have no idea that right is simple a united State all people can share.

    It is far easier to describe the idea of double standard as simple a public right to free speech. As the value of the protest is lost when the protester burns the flag as it is the very process of destruction that should take place for their abuse to the symbol. Free means that there is no self-value or assigned cost that can be shown in an action any longer. The self-value of the disruption or intimidation of burning as a symbol of defiance or destruction is lost in the way the flag is destroyed. Ideally it is like spanking the child that spanks themselves without knowing spanking is a punishment.

    The Iron is if a American flag is not destroyed by burning at protest then evidence is left for treason, espionage, or sabotage, burning a flag is a dammed if you do and dammed if you do not undertaking. Terrorism is not really a proper United State to assemble for criminal accusation as it is way to announce fear. Which has a link to intimidation and other forms of harassment one person can place on another by basic principle.   

    It is like explaining the difference between Constitution ramifications and legal precedent. 

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -  
    @with_all_humility

    If the person has a photo of my mother in their album and burns it, and I try to sue them over it - any court in any respectable country will have a good laugh, then ask me to vacate the building and let people with actual lawsuits make their case.

    There is a difference between "I disapprove of X", and "I think X should be made illegal". 

    If everything I strongly disapproved of was made illegal... Oh would our prisons fill fast! You guys are lucky that I A) have no interest in ruling the world and B) do not think that everything I disapprove of should be illegal.
    Erfisflat
  • First: Burning an American flag is not a freedom of speech it is a form of grievance, saying you are burning, or saying at least a reason for the burning of an American flag is a freedom of speech. It can also be a use of First United State Constitutional Amendment on freedom of press, maybe? Possibly squinting harder even a civil liberty. Second: The burn of an American flag is a described method of destruction of an American flag after it has given many years of service. So it is not in any way a disrespect to unite a state of people for this process. The point is burning of the flag is a method given as an untied State as described for destroying a flag after it has been decimated.

    The point that the burning of any flag, or American flag has in United State with all flags is destruction after it has been decimated make such a grievance of control constitutionally wrong to legislate directly, as a law itself. Most public displays regarding fire, burning of materials, gathering with disturbances are covered under local public codes anyway.

    The extreme abuse of civil liberty by Constitutional principle can be argued as a form of Treason unless the person accused of pubic desecration, or poor discretion is yelling the flag had touched ground. While other in public chant something else, a different reason for the burning then it is freedom of speech. We can say a self-value and assigned cost are lost between the two groups.

  • The explanation is not written to defend or preserve an original United States Constitutional representation when it is being aligned by using the words freedom of speech in a united state once held with grievance.


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