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What flaws are Feminist doing that give them a bad name?

Opening Argument

Many people think that the feminist of today's society are bad. They are stripping them selves naked in order for protest, and making men that are not relevant feel guilty.
SilverishGoldNovaVaulkFascismjoecavalry



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Arguments

  • There are countless things wrong with them. They are hypocritical, and uneducated. 
    SilverishGoldNovaKocop
  • edited October 2017
    Fascism said:
    There are countless things wrong with them. They are hypocritical, and uneducated. 

    First and second wave feminists actually fought for women's rights. Modern feminists, especially in western nations, will happy run over real victims (both male and female) and complain about trivial nonsense (such as men spreading their legs on the subway  and people giving women compliments on the street) in order to keep their group influential, or sometimes they will take important gender neutral issues and try to turn it into a women's issue, like they're doing with domestic violence. Modern western feminism has nothing to do with women's rights
    Fascism
    Retired DebateIslander, Former Earth Science Community Moderator, and ex-Flat Earther. 
  • @SilverishGoldNova

    While a majority of people don't know that about 1st and 2nd wave Feminism, you're very right.  The initial pushes in the Feminist movement were amazing and actually brought about great changes...I'm honestly not sure what happened though.  Today's feminism is absolutely atrocious and leads honest and impressionable people into mindless ideology about things that either aren't real or aren't really issues of gender inequality.
    SilverishGoldNova
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • edited October 2017
    @Vaulk @Fascism Well there are 2 benefits to modern feminism: Nada and Zilch. They think everything that they do (e.g. demonizing and mocking male victims of rape and domestic violence and REAL female victims of rape or domestic violence, shattering down and disrupting the conferences of people they don't agree with, or harassing someone for drawing pictures they don't like, to the point where the artist attempts to kill herself) is justified for the greater good (or in honestspeak, with the intention of becoming more influential). As you said, they have no concern for womens rights, they just want to lead more impressionable people into a mindless ideology so that way they can remain influential.
    Fascism
    Retired DebateIslander, Former Earth Science Community Moderator, and ex-Flat Earther. 
  • @SilverishGoldNova I agree. Modern feminism is nothing compared to feminism back then. If I am a feminist then I would concentrate on the Middle East instead of creating fake oppression in the USA like most modern feminists are doing. 

    @Vaulk I agree with what you said, but why did you give a fallacy to Kocop? What fallacy did he do? 
    SilverishGoldNova

  • @Vaulk I agree with what you said, but why did you give a fallacy to Kocop? What fallacy did he do? 
    He agrees with him so he probably misclicked and meant to click on Fist Bump or Persuaded
    Retired DebateIslander, Former Earth Science Community Moderator, and ex-Flat Earther. 
  • SilverishGoldNova
  • Feminists promote their side too much compared to other genders, etc.
    SilverishGoldNova
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • @Kocop

    Yea not sure what happened there, I don't even recall trying to click status for the post.  Apologies for the misclick.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Lots of sweeping and baseless claims here. For instance I can say that as a feminist myself I haven't been involves with anyone "stripping them selves naked in order for protest" but then also I can't say that I see anything inherently wrong with stripping oneself naked to protest either.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism as a whole. It supports equality and fights against disadvantages women face. Though there will certainly be issues with individual feminists, that is something applies to any large sub-section of society. Even beyond any problems people might have with their overall beliefs there are certainly issues with individual Americans, democrats, republicans, atheists, Christians, male-rights activists, etc, etc because any large group will have a certain percentage of people who are crazy, rude, criminal, etc. I don't have any reason to believe that objectional behaviour by individual feminists is any more frequent than objectional behaviour by members of any other group and if there is such evidence then certainly no-one in this thread has provided it.

    If anything I'd take there being a thread like this where people just throw hateful claims at feminists without evidence as a sign of the support feminism needs rather than anything that detracts from my opinion of it.
    SilverishGoldNovaMedic
  • @Ampersand The question was "What flaws are Feminist doing that give them a bad name?", so it is justifiable to use individual feminists. Feminism as a whole might be good, but it is being given a bad name because of certain individuals, and we are pointing out what these individuals are doing. There are some good feminists out there, but this isn't a debate on whether feminism should or shouldn't be viewed negatively, it's just a question of why it is viewed negatively by some. 

    As for stripping themselves naked, there are many videos online showing this:
    https://www.google.com/search?safe=strict&biw=1920&bih=973&tbm=vid&ei=LTkaWqzOA-uUjwS1gKroDA&q=feminist+stripping+protests&oq=feminist+stripping+protests&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1675.1675.0.2150.1.1.0.0.0.0.71.71.1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.2PTRdLD5wCg
  • Fascism said:
    @Ampersand The question was "What flaws are Feminist doing that give them a bad name?", so it is justifiable to use individual feminists. Feminism as a whole might be good, but it is being given a bad name because of certain individuals, and we are pointing out what these individuals are doing. There are some good feminists out there, but this isn't a debate on whether feminism should or shouldn't be viewed negatively, it's just a question of why it is viewed negatively by some. 

    As for stripping themselves naked, there are many videos online showing this:
    https://www.google.com/search?safe=strict&biw=1920&bih=973&tbm=vid&ei=LTkaWqzOA-uUjwS1gKroDA&q=feminist+stripping+protests&oq=feminist+stripping+protests&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1675.1675.0.2150.1.1.0.0.0.0.71.71.1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.2PTRdLD5wCg
    Why is it justifiable? If the only issue with with individual feminists and there is no criticism of feminism - what purpose does the debate serve besides being an excuse to rag on people you don't like? I'd also note that up until now no-one has made any case against individual feminists and has only been making sweeping statements about feminism in general - indeed you've done it yourself: "Modern feminism is nothing compared to feminism back then. If I am a feminist then I would concentrate on the Middle East instead of creating fake oppression in the USA like most modern feminists are doing." You can't change the standards as soon as it's convenient for your argument.

    Also I'm aware that some feminists strip naked, but that doesn't rebutt either of the two aspects that I feel were relevant to my comment there:

    1) Stripping naked is not a mainstream feminist action. only a tiny percentage of feminists do it. So for people like yourself who have criticised feminism as a movement/ideology it is not a pertinent area of criticism in the same way it is wrong to criticise fascists for being child molesters - despite the fact some fascists are child molesters..

    2) It still doesn't give a rationale for why it's wrong.
  • @Ampersand The individual feminists are what make up the feminist movement. The Feminist movement promotes equality among men and women, but if mainstream feminists are not promoting this, then they are given a bad name. 

    When I said "Modern feminism is nothing compared to feminism back then. If I am a feminist then I would concentrate on the Middle East instead of creating fake oppression in the USA like most modern feminists are doing," I did not criticize feminism as a whole. I criticized modern feminists. The individuals are what make up modern feminism, not the fundamental theory of feminism. I even implied that if feminists focused on more important things, then feminism might start having a good name again. 

    It's like saying: "The government is given a bad name because of the politicians." The concept of a government might be good, but the government as of now is bad because of the individuals. 

    "Stripping naked is not a mainstream feminist action. only a tiny percentage of feminists do it. So for people like yourself who have criticised feminism as a movement/ideology it is not a pertinent area of criticism in the same way it is wrong to criticise fascists for being child molesters - despite the fact some fascists are child molesters.."

    Yes that is true, but this is not the only thing individual feminists are doing wrong. One thing most of them do is only support one side in a rape accusation. They blindly believe the woman, but not the man. This is a serious issue which most feminists do.

    "Stripping naked is not a mainstream feminist action. only a tiny percentage of feminists do it. So for people like yourself who have criticised feminism as a movement/ideology it is not a pertinent area of criticism in the same way it is wrong to criticise fascists for being child molesters - despite the fact some fascists are child molesters..

    2) It still doesn't give a rationale for why it's wrong. "

    Yes I agree. It doesn't give a rationale for why it's wrong, but it does give a rationale to why it has a bad name. That was what the whole debate was about. It wasn't about whether feminism is right or wrong, it was about why people tend to view it negatively. 
  • When I said "Modern feminism is nothing compared to feminism back then. If I am a feminist then I would concentrate on the Middle East instead of creating fake oppression in the USA like most modern feminists are doing," I did not criticize feminism as a whole. I criticized modern feminists. The individuals are what make up modern feminism, not the fundamental theory of feminism. I even implied that if feminists focused on more important things, then feminism might start having a good name again. 

    So when you specifically mentioned modern fiminism, I shouldn't have assumed you were talking about feminism in the modern day. How silly of me.

    Also is you say that something is believed or done by most feminists, by definition that means that those beliefs or actions must represent if not all of feminism then at a very minimum mainstream feminism.

    It's like saying: "The government is given a bad name because of the politicians." The concept of a government might be good, but the government as of now is bad because of the individuals. 

    Then allow me to clarify. I am defending not just feminism in general, but mainstream current feminism as it is practised. To put it another way, i don't just believe government as a general concept is good, I believe the government right now is good.

    Yes that is true, but this is not the only thing individual feminists are doing wrong. One thing most of them do is only support one side in a rape accusation. They blindly believe the woman, but not the man. This is a serious issue which most feminists do.

    Care to cite this? Otherwise this just seems to be another of these massive sweeping generalisations with no evidence to support it that I was criticising in my other post.

    Yes I agree. It doesn't give a rationale for why it's wrong, but it does give a rationale to why it has a bad name. That was what the whole debate was about. It wasn't about whether feminism is right or wrong, it was about why people tend to view it negatively. 

    That's semantics, you're just restating the point in different words. People will view it negatively because they feel it is in some way wrong, e.g. because it has flaws. Of course people's opinions aren't always good or right, so to assess if people are accurately viewing feminism negatively because of a genuine flaw, we will need to critically analyse the rationale, which gets us right back to where we were. So:

    1) Stripping naked is not a mainstream feminist action. only a tiny percentage of feminists do it. So for people like yourself who have criticised feminism as a movement/ideology it is not a pertinent area of criticism in the same way it is wrong to criticise fascists for being child molesters - despite the fact some fascists are child molesters..

    2) It still doesn't give a rationale for why it's wrong.
  • @Ampersand
    "So when you specifically mentioned modern fiminism, I shouldn't have assumed you were talking about feminism in the modern day. How silly of me."

    Yes, however, you claimed that feminism as a whole is good:
    "I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism as a whole. It supports equality and fights against disadvantages women face. "
    But when talking about why feminism has received a bad name, we need to talk about the specific cases where feminists have gone wrong. This is why I specifically mentioned mainstream feminism as of today because that is the cause of feminism's bad name. 

    "Also is you say that something is believed or done by most feminists, by definition that means that those beliefs or actions must represent if not all of feminism then at a very minimum mainstream feminism."

    Yes that is true. These are the feminists which brought feminism a bad name. 

    "Then allow me to clarify. I am defending not just feminism in general, but mainstream current feminism as it is practised. To put it another way, i don't just believe government as a general concept is good, I believe the government right now is good."

    Your statement has confused me. Sorry about that:
    "I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism as a whole. It supports equality and fights against disadvantages women face. "

    "That's semantics, you're just restating the point in different words. People will view it negatively because they feel it is in some way wrong, e.g. because it has flaws. Of course people's opinions aren't always good or right, so to assess if people are accurately viewing feminism negatively because of a genuine flaw, we will need to critically analyse the rationale, which gets us right back to where we were. So:"

    People can also view it negatively if a small group of feminists do something wrong. It is part of human nature. This may be the wrong way to assess things, but that is just how humans assess some things. 

    Plus there are other things that many feminists do as a whole when it comes to mainstream feminism, such as the rape accusation example. 

    "Care to cite this? Otherwise this just seems to be another of these massive sweeping generalisations with no evidence to support it that I was criticising in my other post."

    You have also made a generalization: "I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism as a whole. It supports equality and fights against disadvantages women face." 
    Also your claim that "Stripping naked is not a mainstream feminist action. only a tiny percentage of feminists do it." also is a generalization with no proof. 

    However, generalizations are why people tend to hate certain groups in the first place. But I will drop my generalization since it doesn't have proof. 

    Radical feminists distort the meaning of feminism and cause feminism to have a bad name. 
    https://today.yougov.com/news/2016/02/23/less-than-third-women-feminists/
    As you can see, a considerable amount of people say they're not feminists because feminists are too extreme. 

    So since none of the previous generalizations had proof, I'll make a new claim which is backed. Feminism has a bad name because many feminists are radical. 

    radical - associated with political views, practices, and policies of extreme change
  • edited November 2017
    @Ampersand While it is certainly possible to call yourself a feminist without agreeing with the hypocrites, many modern feminists (especially in western countries) have shown themselves to care about womens rights like Flat Earthers believe in a globe Earth. Many modern feminists have shown themselves to NOT care about womens rights, but rather, they care more about keeping themselves influential. 

    While I'm not saying all feminists are like that, unfortunately many feminists are, and it is giving feminism a bad name. If you disagree with "Most" being like that, you can atleast admit "Some" are like that.
    Retired DebateIslander, Former Earth Science Community Moderator, and ex-Flat Earther. 
  • @SilverishGoldNova

    How many is "Some"? As stated previously:


    Though there will certainly be issues with individual feminists, that is something applies to any large sub-section of society. Even beyond any problems people might have with their overall beliefs there are certainly issues with individual Americans, democrats, republicans, atheists, Christians, male-rights activists, etc, etc because any large group will have a certain percentage of people who are crazy, rude, criminal, etc. I don't have any reason to believe that objectional behaviour by individual feminists is any more frequent than objectional behaviour by members of any other group and if there is such evidence then certainly no-one in this thread has provided it.
  • Yes that is true. These are the feminists which brought feminism a bad name. 

    So you aren't simply stating things about individual feminists and you ARE making sweeping claims against mainstream feminism as an ideology.

    Your statement has confused me. Sorry about that:

    In short, i support mainstream feminism.

    Your analogy was "The government is given a bad name because of the politicians" which equals you potentially liking a different implementation of feminism but thinking it is ruined by the way feminists generally act.

    My analogy is "The government is good even if people dislike it and the occasional politician is poor" which equals me liking the current modern version of feminism regardless of what an odd minority do.

    People can also view it negatively if a small group of feminists do something wrong. It is part of human nature. This may be the wrong way to assess things, but that is just how humans assess some things. 

    But is that a flaw with feminism or just how people are? Can you think of any ideology of comparable size to feminism that you CAN'T point to a weird minority about? If it doesn't seem to be specific to feminism, that is not a flaw with feminism.

    Plus there are other things that many feminists do as a whole when it comes to mainstream feminism, such as the rape accusation example. 

    Again, unevidenced.

    You have also made a generalization: "I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism as a whole. It supports equality and fights against disadvantages women face." 
    Also your claim that "Stripping naked is not a mainstream feminist action. only a tiny percentage of feminists do it." also is a generalization with no proof. 

    It's only appropriate to ask for evidence if you actually dispute a point and there is contention. Are you seriously suggesting, for instance, that the majority of feminists publicly strip naked as a form of protest?

    Radical feminists distort the meaning of feminism and cause feminism to have a bad name. 
    https://today.yougov.com/news/2016/02/23/less-than-third-women-feminists/
    As you can see, a considerable amount of people say they're not feminists because feminists are too extreme. 

    Argumentum ad populem. Just because people think it, that doesn't mean it matters.

    That simple tells us people think something. It doesn't tell us what, if anything, feminism is doing wrong to cause that.

    So since none of the previous generalizations had proof, I'll make a new claim which is backed. Feminism has a bad name because many feminists are radical. 

    radical - associated with political views, practices, and policies of extreme change

    You say you're going to make a new claim which is backed - and then make a new claim with absolutely no backing. Showing that people think something is radical doesn't mean it is radical - that's an instance of a well known logical fallacy. Providing the definition of the word radical does not mean most feminists are radical either.
  • @Ampersand
    "So you aren't simply stating things about individual feminists and you ARE making sweeping claims against mainstream feminism as an ideology."

    Yes. Kind of like you making sweeping claims for mainstream feminism. 

    "In short, i support mainstream feminism.
    Your analogy was "The government is given a bad name because of the politicians" which equals you potentially liking a different implementation of feminism but thinking it is ruined by the way feminists generally act.
    My analogy is "The government is good even if people dislike it and the occasional politician is poor" which equals me liking the current modern version of feminism regardless of what an odd minority do."

    "But is that a flaw with feminism or just how people are? Can you think of any ideology of comparable size to feminism that you CAN'T point to a weird minority about? If it doesn't seem to be specific to feminism, that is not a flaw with feminism."

    It is a flaw with how people are. That's what this particular argument is about. My other statements later on are to show how modern feminism is flawed. I'm just trying to say that because of this flaw that people have, even if modern feminism was good, then pointing to a small minority to explain why people hate it is valid. That was the whole point of the debate in the first place, to explain why people have a negative view of feminism. 

    "It's only appropriate to ask for evidence if you actually dispute a point and there is contention. Are you seriously suggesting, for instance, that the majority of feminists publicly strip naked as a form of protest?"

    No, but I dispute the point that "I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism as a whole. It supports equality and fights against disadvantages women face." Provide evidence for that, or drop it. 

    "Argumentum ad populem. Just because people think it, that doesn't mean it matters.
    That simple tells us people think something. It doesn't tell us what, if anything, feminism is doing wrong to cause that."
    "You say you're going to make a new claim which is backed - and then make a new claim with absolutely no backing. Showing that people think something is radical doesn't mean it is radical - that's an instance of a well known logical fallacy. Providing the definition of the word radical does not mean most feminists are radical either. "

    Argumentum ad populum doesn't apply in this case because the definition of radical depends on what other people think. 
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/radical
    Here is the full definition which I should have put from the start:
    "3 a : very different from the usual or traditional : extreme
    b : favoring extreme changes in existing views, habits, conditions, or institutions
    c : associated with political views, practices, and policies of extreme change
    d : advocating extreme measures to retain or restore a political state of affairs
    • the radical right"
    If something is radical, then it is extremely different from the common existing views. Feminism is defined as radical or not by the common existing views, so if the people with the common existing views have views which they think are extremely different from modern feminism, then feminism is radical. 
  • edited November 2017
    @Ampersand You're asking for me to prove that these types of hypocritical mouthbreather idiots exist?
    Retired DebateIslander, Former Earth Science Community Moderator, and ex-Flat Earther. 
  • @Ampersand You're asking for me to prove that these types of hypocritical mouthbreather idiots exist?
    No, I'm asking you to either

    a) Prove that they constitute the majority of feminists

    or

    b) Explain why we should care if they constitute a minority, keeping in mind my point about how any reasonable sized group will attract a minority of deplorable types.
  • edited November 2017
    @Ampersand Are you familiar with those feminists ignoring REAL issues effecting women and instead complaining about trivial things like catcalling and manspreading and attempting to turn them into womens issues? Those people? Yeah I'm talking about that. This debate is on what is giving feminism a bad rap, and I think I just explained it. 

    While it is possible to consider yourself a feminist and actually care about real womens issues, like the issues effecting women in Central Asia and the Middle East, the majority of feminists (or a sizeable minority, or a fringe group that is being associated with all feminists) seem to not. This is giving western feminist a bad rap into todays times.
    Fascism
    Retired DebateIslander, Former Earth Science Community Moderator, and ex-Flat Earther. 
  • @SilverishGoldNova Yes that was the point of the argument in the first place. It wasn't to assess whether feminism was good or bad. It simply asked what might be the cause of feminists having a bad name. 
    SilverishGoldNova
  • VaulkVaulk 439 Pts
    edited November 2017
    What are Feminists doing that's giving the movement a bad name?

    Answer:

    1. Hiding the use of Planned Parenthood behind the idea that Women should have access to Women specific healthcare.
         a. Planned Parenthood doesn't offer mammograms despite the huge wave of Feminist activists claiming that it does.
    https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2012/10/why-planned-parenthood-wont-provide-mammograms
         b. Planned Parenthood does not offer any prenatal care what-so-ever.

         c. While planned parenthood does conduct screenings of vaginal tracts, a majority of this is done because of a medical requirement prior to conducting an Abortion.
    http://www.centerformedicalprogress.org/
    http://studio.ndnmediaservices.com/washingtonexaminer?ndn.trackingGroup=91212&ndn.siteSection=91212_pp&ndn.videoId=32492587
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/08/12/for-planned-parenthood-abortion-stats-3-percent-and-94-percent-are-both-misleading/?utm_term=.28501e1f7b95

    2. The ever-lasting "Wage gap" sob story
         a. The wage gap has been, long since its emergence, been debunked, disproven and labeled as a myth...google "Wage gap" and find the first suggestion to be the addition of "Myth" on the end.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#6b10c7042596
    https://fee.org/articles/truth-and-myth-on-the-gender-pay-gap/
       
    3. The general "Equality" rant.
         a. When's the last time you ever heard about the issue of Men receiving on average 63% longer prison sentences than Women for the SAME crimes?  Anyone?  Women are also twice as likely to not receive ANY jail time even after conviction.
         b. Every boy in America has a 1 in 5 chance of being prescribed a powerful schedule II psychotropic medication to calm his behavior as if there's something biologically wrong with him when he displays an inability to sit quietly or submissively in a classroom dominated by girls who will outperform him throughout his public education.
         c. The U.S. has some really great social programs for Women and especially Women who have Children.  These programs prevent any Woman, with the drive to seek them out, from suffering the depression of Homelessness.  For Men however, there are rarely any such programs.
         d. Over 40% of severe physical abuse/domestic violence victims are Men, yet 99.3% of shelters for these types of victims are reserved for Women only.
    https://thoughtcatalog.com/janet-bloomfield/2014/06/350587/
    http://www.batteredmen.com/NISVS.htm
    https://thoughtcatalog.com/janet-bloomfield/2014/08/5-ways-society-discriminates-against-men/


    So in conclusion, the issue facing the image of Feminism is that it appears to be disingenuous on the surface.  When you think of Feminism, you think of Women at rallies shouting for the advocacy of Planned Parenthood, the destruction of the Wage Gap and for Equality.  The problem is that these issues are deplorable focuses for a group intent of achieving better equality.  This and the fact that it "Seems" to be that every time a camera gets pointed at a Feminist...it's always the angry one with a mohawk screaming at the top of her lungs about how she doesn't care what anyone says because she's a victim.  lol, it's kind of like watching the news about a Tornado...they always find the most backwards ozark hillbilly to describe what happened for the viewers.
    Fascism
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


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