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Does a Higher Being Exist?

Opening Argument

BaconToesBaconToes 178 Pts
edited March 12 in Religion
Does a Higher Being Exist?
EDIT: Changing the title since it is a bit misleading
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this debate!
  1. Is God real?

    35 votes
    1. Yes
      54.29%
    2. No
      45.71%
i fart cows
«1345



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Status: Open Debate


Arguments

  • impossible to prove without being self-referential

    maybe is the best we can get
    jgestiotprincepatrik

    Under a system of perfectly free commerce, each country naturally devotes its capital and labour to such employments as are most beneficial to each. This pursuit of individual advantage is admirably connected with the universal good of the whole. By stimulating industry, by regarding ingenuity, and by using most efficaciously the peculiar powers bestowed by nature, it distributes labour most effectively and most economically.


    - David Ricardo

  • If you can't prove God is real, then it doesn't exist.

    DrCerealjgestiotPogueFascismAsianParliamentarianprincepatrik
    i fart cows
  • Nonsense. You cannot disprove god either.
    DrCerealjgestiotFascismprincepatrikBaconToesWokeWhale

    Under a system of perfectly free commerce, each country naturally devotes its capital and labour to such employments as are most beneficial to each. This pursuit of individual advantage is admirably connected with the universal good of the whole. By stimulating industry, by regarding ingenuity, and by using most efficaciously the peculiar powers bestowed by nature, it distributes labour most effectively and most economically.


    - David Ricardo

  • As is commonly said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
    DrCerealjgestiotFascismprincepatrikBaconToes

    Under a system of perfectly free commerce, each country naturally devotes its capital and labour to such employments as are most beneficial to each. This pursuit of individual advantage is admirably connected with the universal good of the whole. By stimulating industry, by regarding ingenuity, and by using most efficaciously the peculiar powers bestowed by nature, it distributes labour most effectively and most economically.


    - David Ricardo

  • If we can't disprove anything is real, then is everything real?

    jgestiot
    i fart cows
  • So are unicorns, goblins, fairies all real?

    jgestiot
    i fart cows
  • You can easily disprove unicorns and faries and goblins. God, as usually designed is not material and therefore cannot be disproved by corporeal means.
    DrCerealjgestiotBaconToesWokeWhale

    Under a system of perfectly free commerce, each country naturally devotes its capital and labour to such employments as are most beneficial to each. This pursuit of individual advantage is admirably connected with the universal good of the whole. By stimulating industry, by regarding ingenuity, and by using most efficaciously the peculiar powers bestowed by nature, it distributes labour most effectively and most economically.


    - David Ricardo

  • Disprove unicorns and fairies and goblins. I'm all ears.
    jgestiotcdog1950
    i fart cows
  • Unicorns are corporeal things. We, with our corporeal senses have never seen or observed one. Therefore, they do not exist.

    God is different. There's no rational basis for belief in or not in God, given it is impossible to prove either way. 
    DrCerealjgestiotBaconToescdog1950

    Under a system of perfectly free commerce, each country naturally devotes its capital and labour to such employments as are most beneficial to each. This pursuit of individual advantage is admirably connected with the universal good of the whole. By stimulating industry, by regarding ingenuity, and by using most efficaciously the peculiar powers bestowed by nature, it distributes labour most effectively and most economically.


    - David Ricardo

  • Hey, 

    If you check my debate "Why do you believe in God", you can see a longer list of responses from me, but here, I'll share a short reason about why God exists.

    1. BaconToes, you are correct that you can't see God, however, God is not an imperial being. We can't see him, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. This is where the saying "We walk by faith, and not by sight" comes from. If we truly have to see something to make it true, then the 3,000 deaths per day from hunger never occured, or the Colosseum in Rome doesn't exist because I can't see it from America. Fallicious arguments? Yes! Therefore, God must be present, because although we can not see him, he exists at a spiritual level unknown to man.
    jgestiotprincepatrikBaconToescdog1950
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • WilliamSchulzWilliamSchulz 237 Pts
    edited December 2017

    BaconToes said:
    So are unicorns, goblins, fairies all real?

    No, because they only exist in the pages of a book or by word of mouth. God, although in the Bible, is also present in human life via miracles performed, the sending of his son Jesus, and nature around us. 
    jgestiotprincepatrikBaconToes
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • WilliamSchulzWilliamSchulz 237 Pts
    edited December 2017
    Medic said:
    impossible to prove without being self-referential

    maybe is the best we can get
    Remember that God can be found in 2 ways, Scripture and Nature, the latter for people who don't know about the Bible, but think that there is more to life then a life without a goal.
    jgestiotprincepatrikBaconToes
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • No, because they only exist in the pages of a book or by word of mouth. God, although in the Bible, is also present in human life via miracles performed, the sending of his son Jesus, and nature around us. 
    What would the miracles be? Children starving in Africa, kids getting killed by cancer, etc. Your God must be very amazing and great. The Bible was written 3500 years ago, revised multiple times. It said that the Earth was 6000 years old. 
    anonymousdebaterjgestiotprincepatrik
    i fart cows
  • Medic said:
    Unicorns are corporeal things. We, with our corporeal senses have never seen or observed one. Therefore, they do not exist.

    God is different. There's no rational basis for belief in or not in God, given it is impossible to prove either way. 
    Why is God is different just because you say so?
    What if I said unicorns are not corporeal things either, that is is a spiritual thing? Just because you think something is that way doesn't mean it's correct
    jgestiotprincepatrik
    i fart cows
  • BaconToes You would expect to find unicorns if they lived on earth. God is a general term. We would except not finding what many people think god is. We can say that for most version of what people think god is we would not expect to find evidence so not finding evidence does not mean anything.
    jgestiotprincepatrikBaconToes
  • Nope said:
    BaconToes You would expect to find unicorns if they lived on earth. God is a general term. We would except not finding what many people think god is. We can say that for most version of what people think god is we would not expect to find evidence so not finding evidence does not mean anything.
    If you can't support your hypothesis with evidence, then God does not exist.
    jgestiotprincepatrikWokeWhale
    i fart cows
  • Medic said:
    Unicorns are corporeal things. We, with our corporeal senses have never seen or observed one. Therefore, they do not exist.

    God is different. There's no rational basis for belief in or not in God, given it is impossible to prove either way. 
    (For the sake of simplicity, I'm assuming in my response that an independent reality exists.)
    Your unicorn argument gives a pretty strong conclusion. Let me rewrite it as a syllogism to clarify the problem:

    1. Unicorns are coporeal objects.
    2. We have never observed/perceived such unicorns.
    3. Therefore, unicorns must not exist.

    As it currently stands, the conclusion the argument makes is a non sequitur. If we are to add the implied premise to your argument, it becomes:

    1. Unicorns are coporeal objects.
    2. Corporeal objects only exist if we can observe/perceive them.
    3. We have never observed/perceived such unicorns.
    4. Therefore, unicorns must not exist.

    This argument is guilty of having a false premise (premise 2). We can not observe dark energy/matter, yet we know that they exist (through observations of their effects). This is something you should consider factoring into your argument. Furthermore, your second premise also assumes that we will never observe/perceive unicorns or their potential effects in the future so it is a hasty generalization. You can not disprove the existence of something. You can suggest that there is no reason to believe in that something, but you could never disprove it.
    BaconToesEdriljgestiot
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • BaconToes said:
    If we can't disprove anything is real, then is everything real?

    No.
    BaconToes
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • jgestiot
    i fart cows
  • BaconToes You would need to support your claim with evidence. The way I see it is we can't know right know if god is real (this is why I don't bother with him). Deist Is a god who created the universe but does not intervene. We don't know how the universe started. If you believe in the big bang (I am leaning trod that theory as it has lot's of evidence) then we don't know why the big bang happened. So we can't prove anything their and sense that god would not intervene. The lack of evidence is expected and proves nothing.
  • Nope said:
    BaconToes You would need to support your claim with evidence. The way I see it is we can't know right know if god is real (this is why I don't bother with him). Deist Is a god who created the universe but does not intervene. We don't know how the universe started. If you believe in the big bang (I am leaning trod that theory as it has lot's of evidence) then we don't know why the big bang happened. So we can't prove anything their and sense that god would not intervene. The lack of evidence is expected and proves nothing.
    Medic said:
    As is commonly said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
    Like @Medic said(even though it disproves his point) the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, also know as argument from ignorance.
    https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/56/Argument-from-Ignorance

    "Example #1:

    Although we have proven that the moon is not made of spare ribs, we have not proven that its core cannot be filled with them; therefore, the moon’s core is filled with spare ribs.

    Explanation: There is an infinity of things we cannot prove -- the moon being filled with spare ribs is one of them.  Now you might expect that any “reasonable” person would know that the moon can’t be filled with spare ribs, but you would be expecting too much.  People make wild claims, and get away with them, simply on the fact that the converse cannot otherwise be proven."

    Basically, you are saying that God is real because you cannot prove that God is not real.

    Most major beliefs are based on the lack of evidence rather than evidence.

    Nopejgestiot
    i fart cows
  • I think it depends on what your interpretation of "God" is. An all-powerful man sitting on a throne on clouds is to me, stupid. 
    anonymousdebaterjgestiot
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • Pogue said:
    I think it depends on what your interpretation of "God" is. An all-powerful man sitting on a throne on clouds is to me, stupid. 
    "God" is a proper noun, someone Christians believe in. If it does sound stupid to you, explain why. You can't just give a statement saying something without explaining it.
    jgestiot
    i fart cows
  • PoguePogue 498 Pts
    edited December 2017
    @BaconToes
    Ok, I will disprove the Christian God. In Christianity, the Bible is "The true word of God". It is the thing that proves God. So disproving the Bible disproves the Christian God. Let's disprove it prove it. The Mathematical Tabulation concerning the Year of Adam's Creation according to the Account of Moses is absolute. This Calculation coincides with Bishop James Ussher. The result was about 4000 BC (6,000 years ago. Even you agree with me because you said me that the Bible says it is.) Science proved the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. If this is how long man has been on Earth, modern humans are at least 200,000 years old. What about the story of Noah, the Ark, and the flooding. There are 10's of millions of species on Earth. He needed 2 of every species. And what about the food needed? A boat would have to be ginormous. There are multiple problems with this. A few are where did he get enough wood in the middle east to build a ship of that size, how did an old man that is unskilled in building a ship build a ship of that size, where did his ark go, where is the evidence of a global flood 4,000 years ago, to get every living creature, he would have had to explore the entire world, how did all the food stay fresh for a year, why didn't the meat-eating animals eat other animals, how did the humans on board not get a bunch of dieses given that they had to care for the animals, how did the animals get back to where they originated from after the flood, other civilizations lived in the same time period so why does their recorded history not incluid a flood, and how did the single-celluar and microscopic life get on board. The Bible is also very inconsistent. 

    BaconToesjgestiotwith_all_humility
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • @Pogue
    If I were you I correct your spelling and grammar.
    What you said did not disprove God but rather the Bible. Even though that was the case, it was very informative.

    Poguejgestiot
    i fart cows
  • @BaconToes
    I said I was going to disprove the Christian God which is reliant on the Bible to prove. So disproving the Bible disproves the Christian God. I guess I wasn't clear. Also, thank you.
    jgestiot
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • I might as well throw the Problem of Evil in here too. Evil exists (disease, war, flooding, etc). God is described as all loving and omnipotent. He'd of course want to remove this evil.

    If god was willing but not able, he's not omnipotent. If he's able but not willing, then he is malevolent. If he's both willing and able, then from where does evil come? If he's neither willing or able, then why call him God?

    If evil exists as a test, wouldn't his omniscience already know the results, basically meaning it's pointless violence? If it was Adam's fault he ate the apple, causing sin, why did the apple exist in the first place? Why did Adam have to eat it. God could've made the apple smell bad or something if it contained evil and sin.
    jgestiot
  • NopeNope 321 Pts
    edited December 2017
    PowerPikachu21 I am assuming you are taking about christian god. Not doing anything is arguable not malevolent. I would think god is able but not willing because god is God and that is the only way I can think bad things will happen. Not interfering in human matters in most cases not malevolent. Maybe he wan't us to take what we have learn from the bible and resolve are problems on are own. Is that not what the parent wan't for there child? (I am not a Christian)
    anonymousdebaterjgestiot
  • I might as well throw the Problem of Evil in here too. Evil exists (disease, war, flooding, etc). God is described as all loving and omnipotent. He'd of course want to remove this evil.

    If god was willing but not able, he's not omnipotent. If he's able but not willing, then he is malevolent. If he's both willing and able, then from where does evil come? If he's neither willing or able, then why call him God?

    If evil exists as a test, wouldn't his omniscience already know the results, basically meaning it's pointless violence? If it was Adam's fault he ate the apple, causing sin, why did the apple exist in the first place? Why did Adam have to eat it. God could've made the apple smell bad or something if it contained evil and sin.
    Can you define the term "evil"?
    I'm not sure what stance you are on here.
    Most Christians will believe that he is willing but he doesn't want to interfere with human nature. That basically means that he doesn't want to help. If he's not willing to help humankind, then why create us in the first place? Why choose specifically "humans"(since you guys don't believe in evolution. If God was a form of human and got the inspiration from himself, who created God? Christians dismiss the Big Bang because matter can't be there all along, yet they claim that no one created God, he was there all along.
    jgestiot
    i fart cows
  • Nope said:
    PowerPikachu21 I am assuming you are taking about christian god. Not doing anything is arguable not malevolent. I would think god is able but not willing because god is God and that is the only way I can think bad things will happen. Not interfering in human matters in most cases not malevolent. Maybe he wan't us to take what we have learn from the bible and resolve are problems on are own. Is that not what the parent wan't for there child? (I am not a Christian)

    If you saw a child being tortured in an alley, and you knew for sure that you could easily stop it with no negative repercussions, would you say it is not malevolent for you to decide to ignore it and allow it to continue? How can you justify inaction here? Is the little girl supposed to just solve the problem of being dominated by an adult on her own?

    This is what an omniscient, omnipotent being does millions of times every day, in millions of different ways.
    anonymousdebaterjgestiot
  • @Pogue ;
    Your argument about the age of the Earth is invalid because many Christians disagree with the young Earth idea.
    For Noah's Ark, see https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/evidence-noahs-flood-ark-real-robert-ballard-archeologist-titanic_n_2273143.html
    Plus, it seems irrational to base the number of animals in Noah's Ark off of current calculations.
    jgestiot
  • MikeMike 86 Pts
    God is a construct within one’s philosophy; whether one is of faith, or faithless. 
    jgestiot
  • Mike said:
    God is a construct within one’s philosophy; whether one is of faith, or faithless. 
    How do you mean?
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • @DrCereal

    He's saying G-d's subjective, which I guess is sort of true, depending on the person and their connection with the Divine. 
    jgestiot
  • To me he is. 
    jgestiot
  • Eyes2See 

    Yes, while G-d an be subjective, at the same time, He must be objective too, otherwise, you don't have a G-d, just ideas, or what you'd like to believe in, i.e., such as an afterlife for comfort, purpose in life so you feel significant, etc. 

    Are you a Mormon? How is G-d subjective?
    jgestiot
  • To me God is both objective and Subjective, however the more I personally have gotten to know God, the more subjective he becomes.To me God isn't just some idea that I believe in, he is very real, and that is based off of the continues feelings and experiences I have as I strive to know him personally. 
    jgestiot
  • @Eyes2See

    That's great to hear!
  • Only those who have experienced God know that he exists. He has no physical form.He is everywhere.
    jgestiotBaconToes
  • PoguePogue 498 Pts
    @AbhigyanShanker
    Why is God a he? I never understood that. 
    jgestiot
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
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