Justice league would beat the Avengers - The Best Online Debate Website | DebateIsland.com The Best Online Debate Website | DebateIsland.com
frame

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

The best online Debate website - DebateIsland.com! The only Online Debate Website with Casual, Persuade Me, Formalish, and Formal Online Debate formats. We’re the Leading Online Debate website. Debate popular topics, Debate news, or Debate anything! Debate online for free!


The best online Debate website - DebateIsland.com! The only Online Debate Website with Casual, Persuade Me, Formalish, and Formal Online Debate formats. We’re the Leading Online Debate website. Debate popular topics, Debate news, or Debate anything! Debate online for free!

Justice league would beat the Avengers
in Movies

By General_SmileyGeneral_Smiley 23 Pts edited December 2017
10 person teams and the characters that are normally on that team. It is under the movie category because there is no book or superhero category. You are also allowed to use the comics.

Avengers: Hulk, Iron-man, Captain America, Black widow, Ant-man, Hawk-eye, Doctor Strange, Quicksilver, Vision, Thor.  

Justice League: Flash, Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Green Lantern, Doctor Fate, Shazam, Cyborg, Aquaman, Martian Man-Hunter.
«1



Debra AI Prediction

Predicted To Win
Predicted 2nd Place
11%
Margin

Details +



Arguments

  • General_Smiley Who is faster. Quicksilver or the flash?
  • @Nope not even a question the flash If you want I can link multiple videos and sources 

    Quicksilver has gone a little over the speed of sound 
    The Flash has gone multiple 1000 times then the speed of light. To put that in perspective he has gone faster than instant teleportation from one side of the universe to the other.
  • NopeNope 322 Pts
    edited December 2017
    General_Smiley In that case the flash could beet every member of the avengers except maybe the Halk because for some reason instead of dieing when he should he should he turns into the halk and Thor because he is a god. Is it possible to kill the Halk and Thor. I think the Justice League would win. They have the flash which could beet all of the Avengers before the battle started. They just have to beat the other team right. Because Thor and the Hulk could definitely be defited. Non of the other members of the Justice League even need to do a thing. Sorry for spelling. : )
    General_Smiley
  • edited December 2017
    @Nope He could knock hulk out with the infinite mass punch and stick him in the speed fore. The speed fore only speedsters can get out and time is endless. Hulk could not even get get out even with his strength because unless a speedster accesses it and gets him out then he has no chance. Hulk Cannot Die, but Thor on the other hand can die. If he wanted to The flash wanted to he could use Thor's lightning to his advantage 
  • General_Smiley Flash could be pretty much any super hero. They could not even think of what to do before they are gone. I am more intruted in a battle with out people how could practically make things happen instantly. Iron man could make a machien so strong it could hurt superman as relistcly he should be knocked out by a realy big punch. I wonder if Halk could beat super man with one punch. Super man is quick and has strong punches of his own. The thing is a lot of the Justice League super heros have more then one power while most avengers don't.
  • Yeah he is pretty Op and he also has more powers so he is great. I hope That you continue to study The Flash and maybe join the DC side of superhero fans.
  • I think that Justice League would win just because they have a much stronger and more well rounded team then the Avengers/
    General_Smiley
  • Justice League wins every time, EXCEPT when Scarlet Witch is there.  Also, difference between movies and comics.  

    MOVIES
    To be fair, the JL is not quite as strong as their comic counterparts.  Especially Flash.  I think the movie Avengers have a good chance of taking out most the movie JL, but Superman is their biggest threat.  Overall, JL will win even with Flash being a lot slower.  

    COMICS
    In almost every case, the JL, but if Scarlet Witch has her full power, the JL is screwed.  She literally wiped out all mutants by saying "No more mutants".  She could just chaos magic away the JL.  Otherwise, can't see any other comic Avenger taking down Superman or Flash.  Maybe Sentry?  Not sure if he counts.  

    General_Smiley
  • Basically Dr Strange can solo everyone if he doesn't get taken our by a super speedster in the first second.

    He's the dude whose classic adventures can involve stuff like beating up the universe.
  • @Nope not even a question the flash If you want I can link multiple videos and sources 

    Quicksilver has gone a little over the speed of sound 
    The Flash has gone multiple 1000 times then the speed of light. To put that in perspective he has gone faster than instant teleportation from one side of the universe to the other.
    That was a one off for Flash when he was draining a lot of speed from an entire planet and it wasn't even the current Flash.

    Another thing of note is how the speed force might work. I believe in Marvel Vs DC Flash mentioned losing connection to it and losing a lot of speed to put him on a level pegging with Quicksilver.
  • PoguePogue 498 Pts
    The Justice League would win. The Avengers do not have a lot of powerhouses. They are really good together, but if broken up, they would fail. Especially if you pair the superheroes from each one to one. Also, is there any prep time? If there is, Batman would probably destroy them. Batman could probably create a suit that could beat the Avengers. He created one called the "Justice Buster" suit. It was created to solo the Justice League. He also has the "Insider Suit" which has all the powers of the members of the Justice League. 
    General_SmileyBaconToes
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • If there's prep time Tony Stark can invent stuff that literally blows up planets, Dr Strange can basically instawin and Thor has loads of magical macguffins he can use.
  • PoguePogue 498 Pts
    @Ampersand
    But Batman could probably invent something that could beat the Avengers just like the justice buster could beat the Justice League (it was so close the suit was destroyed and everyone was destroyed). He could probably take out Iron Man Electromagnet Nerve Tree for Cyborg and Citrine Neurolizer for Green Lantern. It can track the Flash and cause him to fall, so he could beat quicksilver. Black widow, Ant-man, Hawk-eye are not a threat at all. Cap. would be beaten by any member including Batman in his regular Batsuit. Hulk is weaker than Superman. Flash could probably take anyone down quickly. 
    BaconToes
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • @SuperSith89 I Like your argument but if we are adding an 11th person we would also get Zatana so it would a pretty even fight. 
  • @Ampersand The only problem you face is That Fate Has been Way more powerful in comics, games and TV shows. He easily fight Dr strange in the modern Comic book, movie, and Tv Show era. Dr strange got nerfed many years ago and so say Dr. Strange is going to easily take out every one is probably wrong. Dr Fate being has not gotten weaker though. 
  • GrenacheGrenache 60 Pts
    I'm no expert in comics but I'll add this... Despite gadgets and gimmicks and fancy moves, eventually battles come down to whom is pretty much impossible to destroy.  In Avengers that's probably Hulk and Thor.  In Justice League that's probably just Superman.  And although Superman is amazing (in fact so amazing I've always found him to have it too easy and be a boring one to cheer for) he does still have the Kryptonite weakness and his enemies do have a talent for getting their hands on that.  

    Basically I'm saying after all the other players cancel out you'd have Superman eating Kryptonite and Hulk and Thor badly thrashed but still alive to come back from that.

    Avengers
    General_Smiley
  • edited March 1
    @Ampersand It all depends on which Flash is in the Justice League at the time. Barry was in it for a considerable amount of time, but for a large amount of Comics and the Justice League TV show it was Wally West. And if we are taking speed force off then the Flash still wins. Because without the speed force most flashes can go just as fast, but just have negative effects on the world, causing Nuclear explosions and chaos. Taking the speed force makes absolutely no sense because it is his power and you wouldn't take Green Lanterns ring or Dr. Stranges power over Universal entities. It makes no sense that you would take the Flash's Power. It is something that he got as a power its, not something that is only available in one comic book universe. In almost every other Vs battle on most websites or Video Flash get the speed Force so it makes no sense to keep it out. Either way, many of the Flashes, speed force or not could easily destroy Quicksilver and the rest of the Avengers.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 336 Pts
    @Ampersand The only problem you face is That Fate Has been Way more powerful in comics, games and TV shows. He easily fight Dr strange in the modern Comic book, movie, and Tv Show era. Dr strange got nerfed many years ago and so say Dr. Strange is going to easily take out every one is probably wrong. Dr Fate being has not gotten weaker though. 
    The most recent Dr Fate is a newbie without a great deal of power who's been dealing with earth-based gods and zero cosmic threats.

    Meanwhile putting aside the current arc which is a brief status-quo shake-up before reverting to the norm, Dr Strange has been fighting multiverse level threats as normal. Dude is on a whole other level.

    Also you stated "The Flash has gone multiple 1000 times then the speed of light. To put that in perspective he has gone faster than instant teleportation from one side of the universe to the other." Now that wasn't Barry Allen the current Flash who did that, that was Wally West a completely different person. He did that once 20 years ago and it wasn't something he did by himself but rather siphoning energy from billions of people who gave it to him and the entire multiverse has been remade at least three times that I can think of since then.

    If that is a valid feat to apply to Flash, some of Dr Strange's stuff is sure as heck applicable because it's at least the same person and it wasn't done under totally unique circumstances that aren't replicable in a standard fight.

    Pogue said:
    @Ampersand
    But Batman could probably invent something that could beat the Avengers just like the justice buster could beat the Justice League (it was so close the suit was destroyed and everyone was destroyed). He could probably take out Iron Man Electromagnet Nerve Tree for Cyborg and Citrine Neurolizer for Green Lantern. It can track the Flash and cause him to fall, so he could beat quicksilver. Black widow, Ant-man, Hawk-eye are not a threat at all. Cap. would be beaten by any member including Batman in his regular Batsuit. Hulk is weaker than Superman. Flash could probably take anyone down quickly. 
    If you're taking planning into consideration, I think Batman isn't going to come out ahead in a "fancy-suit-a-thon" against Iron Man and the problem is again the obscene stuff Marvel guys can do with planning - none of them really having a way to counter Dr Strange. Also Batman's anti-Justice league plans are based around his comprehensive knowledge of his teammates and are tailored specifically to them - for instance tony Stark's suit isn't integrated directly into his nervous system like Cyborg.

    @Ampersand It all depends on which Flash is in the Justice League at the time. Barry was in it for a considerable amount of time, but for a large amount of Comics and the Justice League TV show it was Wally West. And if we are taking speed force off then the Flash still wins. Because without the speed force most flashes can go just as fast, but just have negative effects on the world, causing Nuclear explosions and chaos. Taking the speed force makes absolutely no sense because it is his power and you wouldn't take Green Lanterns ring or Dr. Stranges power over Universal entities. It makes no sense that you would take the Flash's Power. It is something that he got as a power its, not something that is only available in one comic book universe. In almost every other Vs battle on most websites or Video Flash get the speed Force so it makes no sense to keep it out. Either way, many of the Flashes, speed force or not could easily destroy Quicksilver and the rest of the Avengers.
    I'm thinking back 20 years or so, but I'm sure that in either Marvel vs DC or Justice League/Avengers (there were some 90's crossovers between the two companies) it had Quicksilver power up in the DC Universe/Flash power down in the Marvel Universe because the Speed Force isn't multiversal. It's not me saying this should happen, it's me saying what Marvel and Dc have already decided this happens. 

    Also Flash has the potential to take down a lot or even all of the Marvel side, but then again so do some of the others and  it depends how we're matching people up because Flash also regularly struggles with people who move at normal speed like the Rogues.

    Key questions:

    1) Do people have time to plan or are they thrown in to the fight?
    2) Are people acting like they normally would or are they fighting to kill?
    3) Should we judge power based on people's general capabilities or their highest shown capabilities - which will vary a lot because comics aren't consistent with how they present thing.

    I think a combination of no time to plan, fighting to kill and going based on the highest shown capabilities even if it's not their norm will give Flash a good shot at an insta-win as he should be able to vibrate everyone's brains out their socket in a nanosecond, with the only possibility of a defence being Strange's automatic mystical protections. Any other situation though (e.g. Avengers can plan counters, Flash is fighting like he normally would in the comics, etc) and he loses the edge.
  • @Ampersand The 80's comic was Legitimately was Marvel Vs Dc and the Flash were allowed access to the speed force. In a completely different Comic after Several Attempts, Quicksilver did beat him, but it was because he found a way to cut off the speed force temporarily. Barry Allen has Literally just gotten back in rebirth. It all depends on which version of the justice League time we are using. Barry did run faster than the speed of light as well. He saved a whole country after a nuclear bomb went off. Here is a pic of it.
    Image result for Barry the flash saving north Korea
     
    Even if we are taking the Speed force out then we can put Hulk and thor in the Phantom Zone.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 336 Pts
    @Ampersand The 80's comic was Legitimately was Marvel Vs Dc and the Flash were allowed access to the speed force. In a completely different Comic after Several Attempts, Quicksilver did beat him, but it was because he found a way to cut off the speed force temporarily. Barry Allen has Literally just gotten back in rebirth. It all depends on which version of the justice League time we are using. Barry did run faster than the speed of light as well. He saved a whole country after a nuclear bomb went off. Here is a pic of it.
    Image result for Barry the flash saving north Korea
     
    Even if we are taking the Speed force out then we can put Hulk and thor in the Phantom Zone.
    JLA/Avengers #1 where Flash enters the Marvel universe:



    He then gets badly beaten up by these ordinary humans and needs a special suit that stores speed force to be able to do anything in Marvel.

    Marvel vs DC was something different, it was in the 90s not the 80s and the fights took place in nondescript locations rather than specifically in the Marvel universe.

    You'll also note that in the panel you provide clearly states that he is moving less than light speed. That the numbers don't add up to reflect that means the author got his maths wrong - not that the Flash was actually travelling that fast when the comic book states that he wasn't. In fact not being able to move faster than light is a significant limitation for the Flash and part of his story as trying will cause him to merge with the Speed Force if there aren't plot specific rationalisations for how he manages to avoid it in a particular instance.

    Also contrary to your claim that still wasn't Barry Allen that did that, once again that was Wally West in 2003 in JLA #89.

    Lastly in relation to trying to strand the heavy hitters in a different dimension, Marvel has 2 guys who can do that with no prep time or non-standard equipment necessary (Dr Strange and Thor can both travel to and from other dimensions and send people there) unlike the DC team where they'd need the Phantom Zone projector, so if you think that is the winning tactic then you should lean in Marvel's favour as they have the advantage there.
  • All of those heroes sound great. Wonderful. But I am sorry to inform, that unfortunately, they are nothing. Nothing compares to One Punch Man. Yes, I am finally giving him some spotlight. 


    If I had to choose though between the two, i'd have a horrible time since I know a lot more about DC which is still limited and even far less on Marvel. That's why I say, there is always that alternative. NONE of them stand a chance against
    ONE PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNCH
  • Wars are won by defence not offence. Gandhi understood this concept very well. The more you can make other nations see your enemy as the bad guy the higher the chance you inevitable end up as the victor.

    Justice league is extremely defensive in its power kit.
    Avengers are semi-defensive with only Hulk being the true unkillable among them.

    Superman and wonder woman you won't be laying a finger on... The only hope avengers have is if captain America and hulk 'tank' their strategic attacks effectively over and over again then maybe it will begin to open up windows for their more offensive kit but i doubt this will matter.

    Batman has gear that can auto-detect and auto-this and that... Green lantern can imagine matter-based objects of any shape and density at will and make them a reality as long as he isn't scared at all and instead turns the fear immediately into adrenaline AKA bravery and not to mention that while Hawkeye has supernatural aim, Arrow is a genius of when and how to sneak the arrows in which is much more important for the attack-damage carry in the team than pure aiming of the skillshots.

    Black widow and iron man will be futile. if you dont understand why, you dont understand the science of what beats what. the type of warfare that black widow and iron man are designed for is vs MANY easily killable enemies, they are not designed for 1v1 drawn out brutal combat. Hulk and captain america are designed for that but that's only 2 on the team whereas other than Arrow every single justice league member is designed for longer drawn out brutal combat rather than rapid-fire 1-vs-all type combat.
    General_Smiley
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 336 Pts
    All of those heroes sound great. Wonderful. But I am sorry to inform, that unfortunately, they are nothing. Nothing compares to One Punch Man. Yes, I am finally giving him some spotlight. 


    If I had to choose though between the two, i'd have a horrible time since I know a lot more about DC which is still limited and even far less on Marvel. That's why I say, there is always that alternative. NONE of them stand a chance against
    ONE PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNCH
    Dude couldn't even beat up a mosquito.

    Wars are won by defence not offence. Gandhi understood this concept very well. The more you can make other nations see your enemy as the bad guy the higher the chance you inevitable end up as the victor.
    Gandhi never won a war, plenty of wars have been won by offence (e.g. take Hitlers campaigns against Poland, the Netherlands, France, etc where his blitzkrieg tactics defeated the enemy or Genghis Khan's horse swarm) and trying to summarise all the factors involved in warfare in a single wars are won by X statement is incredibly simplistic to the point of obliviousness.

    Justice league is extremely defensive in its power kit.
    Avengers are semi-defensive with only Hulk being the true unkillable among them.

    Superman and wonder woman you won't be laying a finger on... The only hope avengers have is if captain America and hulk 'tank' their strategic attacks effectively over and over again then maybe it will begin to open up windows for their more offensive kit but i doubt this will matter.

    Batman has gear that can auto-detect and auto-this and that... Green lantern can imagine matter-based objects of any shape and density at will and make them a reality as long as he isn't scared at all and instead turns the fear immediately into adrenaline AKA bravery and not to mention that while Hawkeye has supernatural aim, Arrow is a genius of when and how to sneak the arrows in which is much more important for the attack-damage carry in the team than pure aiming of the skillshots.

    Black widow and iron man will be futile. if you dont understand why, you dont understand the science of what beats what. the type of warfare that black widow and iron man are designed for is vs MANY easily killable enemies, they are not designed for 1v1 drawn out brutal combat. Hulk and captain america are designed for that but that's only 2 on the team whereas other than Arrow every single justice league member is designed for longer drawn out brutal combat rather than rapid-fire 1-vs-all type combat.
    I'm honestly not sure where you're getting most of your ideas from this from, like what gear batman has that autodetects, what it's auto detecting, how that's helpful, how Hawkeye and Green Arrow differ in skills when they're basically carbon copies of one another or why you think Black Widow and Iron man specialise in fighting lots of weak enemies when pretty much every hero mentioned will have decades of comic books showing their history of taking on high-level super-villains on par with members of the opposing team. 
    someone234
  • @Ampersand wars are never won, they are lost. The loser had the weaker defence system.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 336 Pts
    @Ampersand wars are never won, they are lost. The loser had the weaker defence system.
    You have given nothing to support this claim and I've given examples which show it to be false. For instance to further go into detail, in his campaign against Western Xia Genghis Khan faced massive difficulty in defeating his opponent because they had walled cities and castles and the Mongols had very little experience at siege warfare at that point. However despite clear defensive advantage the Xia enjoyed, because of the clear offensive advantage of the Mongols on the field of battle the Xia could do little more than stay cooped up in their castles. This advantage won by the Mongols offensive power, therefore allows could engage in time consuming and only somewhat effective measures like diverting rivers to flood the cities.

    Later on sieges became easier for the mongols as they used engineers from conquered populaces, so even though the defenders still has a clear defensive advantage in having fortified positions they were still in an inferior overall position and their defensive advantage came to mean less and less in real terms as the mongol offensive prowess increased.
  • @Ampersand you understand some things but not how winning is done.

    winning is a concept of the other guy losing instead of you. once you understand this you understand close to my level of wisdom.

    genghis khan won because the others couldn't defend against him. genghis khan prevented himself losing because the other's didn't understand how to exploit his defense system.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 336 Pts
    @Ampersand you understand some things but not how winning is done.

    winning is a concept of the other guy losing instead of you. once you understand this you understand close to my level of wisdom.

    genghis khan won because the others couldn't defend against him. genghis khan prevented himself losing because the other's didn't understand how to exploit his defense system.
    You just seem to arbitrarily making claims, so as your argument lacks content there's nothing of value for me to respond to.
  • Ampersand said:
    @Ampersand you understand some things but not how winning is done.

    winning is a concept of the other guy losing instead of you. once you understand this you understand close to my level of wisdom.

    genghis khan won because the others couldn't defend against him. genghis khan prevented himself losing because the other's didn't understand how to exploit his defense system.
    You just seem to arbitrarily making claims, so as your argument lacks content there's nothing of value for me to respond to.
    @Ampersand This is the power of the enemy not comprehending my defence.

    You don't know where I'm weak so you don't know where to attack.

    If you understood my arguments better, you'd begin to find where they could be attacked, if at all.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • PoguePogue 498 Pts
    Ampersand said:
    @Ampersand you understand some things but not how winning is done.

    winning is a concept of the other guy losing instead of you. once you understand this you understand close to my level of wisdom.

    genghis khan won because the others couldn't defend against him. genghis khan prevented himself losing because the other's didn't understand how to exploit his defense system.
    You just seem to arbitrarily making claims, so as your argument lacks content there's nothing of value for me to respond to.
    @Ampersand This is the power of the enemy not comprehending my defence.

    You don't know where I'm weak so you don't know where to attack.

    If you understood my arguments better, you'd begin to find where they could be attacked, if at all.
    So you are using the 13th-century khan as an analogy to superheroes. If your offense is is too good your defense would not stop it. I still think the JL would win but I wanted to say this. You are not a god like debater! Your arguments can be attacked. Why are you so egotistical? 
    BaconToesGeneral_Smiley
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • @Pogue debating is inherently a gamble because both sides can't tie. any true-skill game doesn't force a loss.

    debating has a tiny bit of luck involved and I can be beaten but no, my arguments do not leave much to be attacked. I structure my arguments to be basic and extremely well-founded rather than elegant and powerful but flawed in their basis.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • @Pogue Khan was brought up by ampersand to counter me, I didn't bring it up.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 336 Pts
    @Pogue Khan was brought up by ampersand to counter me, I didn't bring it up.
    You made the claims that in in warfare defence always wins over offence. You gave no evidence to support this.

    For your claim to be true it should be impossible for me to even provide 1 example of offence winning out over a superior defence in war. I have provided that example, Genghis Khan, ergo you are wrong.

    That's not even getting into the other problems with your argument like the assumption - completely without evidence to support it btw - that warfare can be summed up as some simplistic offence vs defence dialectic or that warfare has any connection to brightly coloured comic book characters punching each other in an imaginary battle.

    You simply saying "I am right because I say I am right", which is all your argument amounts to, is irrelevent. All it tells us is that you have a high opinion of yourself and nothing else.
    Pogue
  • @Ampersand if Khan's defense was weak, he'd have lost long before he became Indomitable.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 336 Pts
    @Ampersand if Khan's defense was weak, he'd have lost long before he became Indomitable.
    You stated:

    "wars are never won, they are lost. The loser had the weaker defence system."

    In my example the loser had nigh impenetrable city walls and lost because although their "defence system" was clearly superior, all they could do was hide behind it because they couldn't match the offensive prowess of the Mongol Horde.

    Ergo your claim is wrong and the claims you are basing upon it are also wrong.
  • VaulkVaulk 440 Pts
    JL would win for the simple fact that the Flash could step back through time and eliminate the entire Avenger team minus Thor.  Hulk - killed as a child before his transformation.  Superman, killed as a child immediately following his crash on Earth with Kryptonite.  The rest would fall the same.  The only one I'm thinking that wouldn't fall into this fate would be Thor but he's FAR from immortal and could easily be killed during his exile to Earth when he had no power.
    General_Smiley
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • AmpersandAmpersand 336 Pts
    Vaulk said:
    JL would win for the simple fact that the Flash could step back through time and eliminate the entire Avenger team minus Thor.  Hulk - killed as a child before his transformation.  Superman, killed as a child immediately following his crash on Earth with Kryptonite.  The rest would fall the same.  The only one I'm thinking that wouldn't fall into this fate would be Thor but he's FAR from immortal and could easily be killed during his exile to Earth when he had no power.
    This is based on a few assumptions, which are the ones I laid out as necessary earlier in the thread for Flash to be able to get quick victory due to his speed:

    1) No time to plan in advance for the fight so the Marvel side can't raise any defence against this tactic

    2) Everyone going all out - e.g. Flash will be performing at his peak, not at the level he often actually performs where he can struggle against guys moving at normal speed.

    3) No morals so Flash is willing to go for the kill.

    Without those, this doesn't apply.

    With Flash and this tactic in particular there are two extra issues:

    4) How do Flash's powers work? As shown earlier they only work normally in the DC universes, in the Marvel or presumably a neutral universe he doesn't have access to the speed force - which eh needs to time travel.

    5) How does time travel work? Different multiverses have different multiversal laws. In Marvel with its infinite universes it's nigh impossible to change the future by altering the past, you actually just create a new alternate timeline but leave the original untouched. In DC with its limited number of universes, going back in time actually does change the future.
  • Ampersand said:
    @Ampersand if Khan's defense was weak, he'd have lost long before he became Indomitable.
    You stated:

    "wars are never won, they are lost. The loser had the weaker defence system."

    In my example the loser had nigh impenetrable city walls and lost because although their "defence system" was clearly superior, all they could do was hide behind it because they couldn't match the offensive prowess of the Mongol Horde.

    Ergo your claim is wrong and the claims you are basing upon it are also wrong.
    Thing for a moment of two things:

    1) what you define as 'clearly superior'
    2) the inability to exploit Khan's defense system.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 336 Pts
    Ampersand said:
    @Ampersand if Khan's defense was weak, he'd have lost long before he became Indomitable.
    You stated:

    "wars are never won, they are lost. The loser had the weaker defence system."

    In my example the loser had nigh impenetrable city walls and lost because although their "defence system" was clearly superior, all they could do was hide behind it because they couldn't match the offensive prowess of the Mongol Horde.

    Ergo your claim is wrong and the claims you are basing upon it are also wrong.
    Thing for a moment of two things:

    1) what you define as 'clearly superior'
    2) the inability to exploit Khan's defense system.
    1) The cities were impenetrable to the Mongol forces without massive effort. The Mongols had no such defence, they were simply better and more deadly in actual combat. Hence the defence of Western Xia was clearly superior. If you are using some definition of "defence" where giant city walls protecting you from an invading horde doesn't qualify as defence, your definition is meaningless.

    2) The issue was the Mongol's offensive prowess. On a field of battle the Mongols would have beat the Xia troops handily using their offensive prowess to mercilessly slaughter the Xians hence how the  Xians relied purely on their defensive advantage - which was still not enough to win them the day as all it did was stop any direct immediate attack.
  • someone234someone234 523 Pts
    edited March 8
    @Ampersand the concept you are not realising is that the key to dominance was that the enemy had no clear idea where the weaknesses in the defence of the mongol fighting style was.

    If they had known that, then the Mongols could be as offensive as they wanted but would die instantly to the exploitation of their defense.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 336 Pts
    @Ampersand the concept you are not realising is that the key to dominance was that the enemy had no clear idea where the weaknesses in the defence of the mongol fighting style was.

    If they had known that, then the Mongols could be as offensive as they wanted but would die instantly to the exploitation of their defense.
    So just for the record you claim there is some secret technique that would magically have killed all the mongol horde despite their advantages in mobility, weaponry, infrastructure (or lack of a need thereof) - but despite your claims to its existence you can give no idea as to what this weakness is?

    And you can still offer no proofs of your "defence = everything" theory being real?

    and you've still offered no proof of any connection to your alleged lynchpin of military warfare and comic book fights?
Sign In or Register to comment.

Back To Top

DebateIsland.com

| The Best Online Debate Experience!
2018 DebateIsland.com, All rights reserved. DebateIsland.com | The Best Online Debate Experience! Debate topics you care about in a friendly and fun way. Come try us out now. We are totally free!

Contact us

customerservice@debateisland.com
Awesome Debates
BestDealWins.com
Terms of Service

Get In Touch