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Rhodesia
in Politics

By FascismFascism 317 Pts
What are your opinions on Rhodesia? 

And btw, I'm going to be active again on this site. 



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Arguments

  • agsragsr 834 Pts
    Welcome back.
    i think that was a pretty dark moment of World history.
    Live Long and Prosper
  • @agsr ;
    Thanks. 
    It proves how racism against white people can happen. Even with the "institutionalized racism" definition, the Rhodesian scenario applies. 

    Luckily Mugabe is no longer the leader, but I'm not sure if the new leader is any better. 
  • Rhodesia?

    You must be using an old map. Rhodesia ceased to exist 38 years ago.

    For 37 years Robert Mugabe was the president of The Republic of Zimbabwe.
  • @Fredsnephew When Mugabe took over, Zimbabwe was the breadbasket of all Africa. Now it costs them $20 million for a bottled water and there is no food.
  • @Fredsnephew It doesn't matter if it doesn't exist anymore, we can still discuss it. Robert Mugabe was also involved with Rhodesia before he became president and renamed it Zimbabwe. 

    @SuzyCreamcheese Agreed. You give Mugabe fertile land and a booming economy, and he turns it into a wasteland. Then he begs for the white farmers to come back after driving them away. 
  • @Fascism I have a good friend who is the daughter of one of those farmers. Her entire (white) family had been born in Rhodesia and lived there for generations. One day some soldiers came and told them they had one day to be gone. They packed up clothes and pictures and family keepsakes, but were forced to leave behind all the farming equipment and everything else they had in life. When the soldiers returned the next day, they made them leave everything and they were allowed one suitcase of clothes to take. That was it.

    Many of the locals were lifelong family friends and worked at the farm. They were all killed and replaced with Mugabe cronies.

    She is a very sweet girl but needless to say, she's fairly bitter about the whole thing.
  • In one sentence we vilify white colonialists and their oppression and ruthless treatment of indigenous African people.

    In the next sentence we pity the European settlers. When the indigenes ruthlessly reclaim their land.

    Such is the human condition.

    I would suggest that it is far better to concentrate on the present and the future, and not dwell on events of the past.




     
  • @Fredsnephew Without colonialists, there would be no roads in Africa. No trains. No electricity or running water.

    Killing and running off people because of their race is called racism. No matter who does it.
  • PoguePogue 507 Pts
    @Fredsnephew Without colonialists, there would be no roads in Africa. No trains. No electricity or running water.

    Killing and running off people because of their race is called racism. No matter who does it.
    Africa was actually very prosperous for the majority of history, more than Europe. It wasn't until the Black Death that Europe actually became prosperous. 
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • @SuzyCreamcheese

    I was simply pointing out the obvious contradiction and not taking any side.

    Nonetheless. You seem to be advocating the ruthless colonialist oppression of indigenous Africans, as a justifiable means of improving African infrastructure.

    And therefore are you also saying, that this in some way precludes the notion of racism.
  • @Fredsnephew Just pointing out that the ruthlessness of the Colonialists was no worse, and in many ways was much better. They modernized Africa like no rulers before them, and banned such primitive practices as human sacrifice and slavery. If liberals weren't so obsessed with race, they would readily see how much better Africa was under Colonial rule.
  • @Fredsnephew ;
    @SuzyCreamcheese

    I was simply pointing out the obvious contradiction and not taking any side.

    Nonetheless. You seem to be advocating the ruthless colonialist oppression of indigenous Africans, as a justifiable means of improving African infrastructure.

    And therefore are you also saying, that this in some way precludes the notion of racism.


    It is not a contradiction. 

    "In one sentence we vilify white colonialists and their oppression and ruthless treatment of indigenous African people.
    In the next sentence we pity the European settlers. When the indigenes ruthlessly reclaim their land."

    How is this a contradiction? In both cases racism is unacceptable. It is more contradictory if we only criticize one group of people. 
  • @Fascism It is a contradiction because your judgment is based upon race. Had the colonists been black there would have been no problems with them bringing Africa into the modern world. 

    The ruthlessness of the Colonialists was no worse, and in many ways was much better. They modernized Africa like no rulers before them, and banned such primitive practices as human sacrifice and slavery. If liberals weren't so obsessed with race, they would readily see how much better Africa was under Colonial rule.
  • @SuzyCreamcheese My judgement in not based on race. I condemn both the colonists and the Africans for their misdeeds. 

    I agree that Rhodesia was better than Zimbabwe. I was arguing against @Fredsnephew's argument. 
  • @Fascism ;

    I actually think we are pretty much in agreement.

    Though I would take issue with your notion, that one persons ruthlessness can be regarded as better than another's.

    I would suggest that, the Mugabe regimes actions were far more visible and came under much closer and clearer scrutiny.

    Colonialist rule came before this present era of information technology. Much of the colonialist oppression and ruthlessness went unnoticed and unreported. 
  • @Fredsnephew Papa and Baby Doc Duvalier, along with Uncle Nelson Mandela and Idi Amin come to mind along with Mugabe.
  • @SuzyCreamcheese

    Not sure what you're trying to say with this statement. Perhaps you could extrapolate.


  • @Fredsnephew Some examples of native, non-colonialist leaders who slaughtered their own people. While Colonial rule wasn't ideal, it was better than most because at least they improved the circumstances in their respective countries.

    For some more prime native rulers during the slavery era, check out good King Gezo (Ghezo) of Dahomey (now Benin). The US and Britain actually went to war with him to get him to STOP selling his people into slavery. Queen Ravanalova of Madagascar was a real peach too. She enslaved or slaughtered fully half of her own subjects. Teodroos (Theodore) of Abyssinia...it goes on.
  • @SuzyCreamcheese ;

    No doubt.

    But aren't these instances, just indicative of the human condition.

    There will always be people who seek wealth and power over others. Whether they be British colonialists or Robert Mugabe.

    Ok. The improvement of infrastructure was a consequence of colonialist rule. 

    But does material enhancement in anyway justify the brutality of oppression?
  • @Fredsnephew First you assure us that there will be abuse of power, as a result of the human condition.

    Then you ask if this abuse is justified by one side - but not the other.

    All the native African leaders I've named were equally brutalizing their own people. Not one of them brought their people so much as a wheel.
  • @Fredsnephew
    @Fascism ;

    I actually think we are pretty much in agreement.

    Though I would take issue with your notion, that one persons ruthlessness can be regarded as better than another's.

    I would suggest that, the Mugabe regimes actions were far more visible and came under much closer and clearer scrutiny.

    Colonialist rule came before this present era of information technology. Much of the colonialist oppression and ruthlessness went unnoticed and unreported. 
    Colonial rule might have been comparable to Mugabe's regime but by "Rhodesia", I meant the free state of Rhodesia with no British interference. 

    Rhodesia, although racist, was much better than Zimbabwe. The only legal form of racism was the color bar. I'm not saying this was good, but I'm just pointing out that Rhodesia was better than Zimbabwe and the colony of Rhodesia, in which the governments themselves actively promoted genocide. 

    What's worse is that the leaders of Rhodesia decided to end racism against black people and made a new nation. This nation was called Zimbabwe-Rhodesia and even had black leadership. However, Mugabe destroyed this nation and made Zimbabwe which made genocide of white farmers legal. 

    Rhodesian racism existed, but right when it was being solved, Mugabe destroyed everything. 
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 411 Pts
    Rhodesia is a classic example of what happens when people cling too much to the past, instead of looking forward. Instead of closing the chapter of colonialism and rebuilding the nation in the new, modern image, Mugabe decided to focus on righting the wrongs of the past - starting a crusade against the former colonists, taking away their property and expelling them from the country, and sharing the collected property between his uneducated friends. 

    Rhodesia used to be the second richest country in Africa, after South Africa. Now it is one of the poorest nations on Earth. It is very similar to what happened in Cuba, which also was one of the richest Caribbean nations and became almost as poor and totalitarian as North Korea.

    Bottom line is, "Let us take revenge on our former oppressors" is not a very good premise for a political system. "Let us look at the present situation and see what we can cook up in it" is how a prosperous nation is built instead.
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