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Debate for "Judaism": The bible has contradictions
in Religion

Position: For
I set up a thread about whether or not there are contradictions in the bible, and user "Judaism" has asked me to setup a 1v1 debate on it. 

No ad hominem (Attacking your opponent or insulting them instead of their argument) , no trolling, and KJV version only.

So, here are the contradictions I provided:

How many men were fighting in Israel?:

800,000 (2 Samuel 24:9): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Samuel+24:9&version=KJV
1,100,000 (1 Chronicles 21:5): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Chronicles+21:5&version=KJV

How many children of Adin were there?: 

454 (Ezra 2:15): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra+2:15&version=KJV
655 (Nehemiah 7:20): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Nehemiah+7:20&version=KJV

How old was Ahaziah when he became King?:

22 (2 Kings 8:26): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Kings+8:26&version=KJV
42 (2 Chronicles 22:2): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Chronicles+22:2&version=KJV

Dear Bible, who the heck is Joseph's father?:

Jacob (Matthew 1:16): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+1:16&version=KJV
Heli (Luke 3:23): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+3:23&version=KJV

How many horsemen did David capture?:

700 (2 Samuel 8:4) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Samuel+8:4&version=KJV
7,000 (1 Chronicles 18:4) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Chronicles+18:4&version=KJV


  1. Are there contradictions in the bible?

    3 votes
    1. Yes
      66.67%
    2. No
      33.33%
Retired DebateIslander, Former Earth Science Community Moderator, and ex-Flat Earther. 



Debra AI Prediction

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Debate Type: Traditional Debate



Voting Format: Casual Voting

Opponent: Judaism

Rounds: 3

Time Per Round: 48 Hours Per Round


Voting Period: 24 Hours


Forfeited


Arguments



  • Round 1 | Position: For
    The verses that Judaism has asked to debate are listed above, so here we go.
    Retired DebateIslander, Former Earth Science Community Moderator, and ex-Flat Earther. 
  • Round 1 | Position: Against
    I accept the debate, sadly, I wasn't able to finish my response in time, I only have, let's say, half of it. But I'll keep working on it as things move forward. 

    Currently, here's what I got, shows a lot of promise, right?

    ***

    Shalom,

    It was my wish to help aid the reader in surfing through the waves of supposed Bible contradictions. However, two clauses must be asserted: 1.) you won't see me quoting from the KJV here - it is a terrible translation compared with the original Hebrew text. 2.) as Orthodox Jews believing in one G-d, we don't worship the idea of a trinity - it was born in Nicea and that's where it better stay - it has no place in Torah. Since that is the case, I won't be commenting on New Testament contradictions, I leave that up to the Church, they are well acquainted with these apparent errors.

    Now we can move on to dispel the myth that the Torah (Tanakh, i.e., Bible) isn't perfect. This is all because there was once a very similar situation, though it took place in a small town around the 11th century in Troyes, France. The man’s name was Shlomo Yitzchaki (acronym aka Rashi), and he one day opened his Torah, only to find horror all over the pages. All throughout his lovely book, which he cherished to be the word of the living G-d, were full of anomalies, contradictions, flaws of logic, enigmatic tales, weirdly with no rhyme or reason at all. Verses appeared to have just fallen onto the paper out of context, entire phrases and stories were repeated, out of place, for no clear purpose at all - but all these problems, this "koshim", did not cause Rashi to fall from Torah and call it a fraud. Instead of abandoning the faith, he realized that all of these apparent mistakes were there for a reason: They were trying to tell us something, about us, about the Creator. About our Torah. They may seem like primitive mistakes to the untrained eye, but to the Sage, they were just style, just a hidden message waiting to be unlocked. Rashi was that key. He opened up the Torah to us through his commentary in a way never before seen, nor will ever be seen again; and Jews, for centuries, have been comforted by his writings. We don’t need Bible critics to tell us what to think, we don’t need atheists to demolish our beliefs, we have Rashi - the greatest of Sages - to navigate us through the tidal waves of apparent errors, to see the storm pass, dawning us into the light.

    It is my wish that you, the reader, sail with me into that same light.

    Welcome to Bible Contradictions Exposed!

    1. How many men were fighting in Israel?

    "And Joab presented the sum of the number of the people to the king, And Israel consisted of eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword, and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men." (2 Samuel 24:9)

    "And Joab gave the number of the census of the people to David, and all Israel were a thousand thousand and a hundred thousand men who draw the sword, and Judah was four hundred seventy thousand men who draw the sword." (1 Chronicles 21:5)

    The context of the story is that HaShem (G-d) wished to punish King David for accusing Him of being an insider on Saul's behalf, so He had David enticed to count the heads of the Israeli population (a grave sin in Judaism, see Exodus 30:12-13).

    Now if you're still a Christian, that's it. These two just cannot work because Satan is the archenemy of G-d and won't help Him a bit. However, if Satan actually works for G-d, then it makes perfect sense that G-d would use him to "evoke" David to sin (see 2 Samuel 24:1). That's just his occupation, it’s his job description. It doesn't mean he's evil.

    This, to Christians, was just another contentious theme with a terrible sales pitch. The fact that G-d may even use Satan, or even worse, be called a ‘Satan’ (as in being an adversary to David) and impose His will on others was terrifying to the Church's claim of a demonic being eternally separated from the L-RD of Hosts. This was a contagious cough which had to be smashed, but that's kind of beyond the point.

    The real question, for now, is this: How many heads did he count? Were there 800,000 men of valor in Israel, and  500,000 in Judah, or, as the Book of Chronicles seems to depict, 1,100,000 in Israel and 470,000 in Judah? Which calculation is correct, obviously the G-d of Israel couldn't really be G-d if He made such elementary mistakes?

    The solution is simple. In 2 Samuel, we only needed to see 800,000 men since it didn't draw further from the standing army of 288,000 (1 Chronicles 27:1-15) nor the 12,000 (2 Chronicles 1:14). Simply add those numbers up and what do you get? 1,100,000 men! Exactly as described in 1 Chronicles 21:5!

    Again, the figure of 470,000 in 1 Chronicles 21:5 did not make mention of the other 30,000 men comprising the standing army of Judah on 2 Samuel 6:1 (this is because Joab did not finish his counting of Judah in 1 Chronicles 21:6). Hence, both reports were, and are accurate, it was just a matter of which report you were looking into that counted!

    In short, this accusation against the validity of Tanakh is false. There is no contradiction, just one calculation when the story's put back in context with its surrounding books.

    2. How many horsemen did David capture?

    Did David capture 1,7000 horsemen after defeating Hadadezer as described in 2 Samuel 8:4, or 7,000 as stated in 1 Chronicles 18:4?

    First off, the word "chariots" was a later addition to the original Hebrew text. Again, this mistake is probably the result a bad copying, if we assume that the number in Chronicles is correct than we can easily fix this error. Simply imagine that "chariot" might have been there originally, but was erased, hence, when it came time to writing, the copyist would have noted the improper Hebrew structure of "one thousand seven thousand horsemen," so he subtracted the second thousand to a mere "hundred," this, in turn, is what gave us 2 Samuel 8:4. Hence, this is not some major flaw, but just a simple error that can be easily corrected.

    ***

    (MORE TO COME!)

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