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Germany's Immigration Crisis
in Politics

By FascismFascism 332 Pts
Germany is allowing many Muslim refugees into its lands and some of the population is against this. What are your thoughts? 
joecavalrypassedbilltherepGeorge_HorseNathaniel_BZombieguy1987



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Arguments

  • Germany should not allow Muslims to come into their county due to the possible terrorist attacks that the Muslims may want to execute.
    LibertineStatesPogueGeorge_HorseNathaniel_BZombieguy1987
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • I get so tired of this immigration debate. People act like ISIS could just take over all of Europe overnight. Not only would a full-fledged ISIS state in Europe be completely incompatible with the continent, the worst the ISIS forces could throw at them would be a mere dink in the Combined EU military armor. In other words: this is utter paranoia.

    I always liked how the French government handled the 1998 World Cup terror plot: The public was never informed of the incident, thus the terrorists never got the publicity they desired, and the people remained joyous at their national team winning the World Cup.
    PogueqipwbdeoGeorge_HorseNathaniel_BZombieguy1987
  • Germany has to reform their immigration system and many other countries also have to put new immigration systems in place such as the US. 
    Nathaniel_BZombieguy1987
  • @LibertineStates ;
    It's not only about ISIS. Germany is known to accept many refugees even if they don't qualify for refugees. Many Germans are fearing that their culture might be dwarfed in the near future by the Muslim culture. They are fearing that Germany might lose its identity. 
    Nathaniel_BZombieguy1987
  • What intelligent human being cares about a meaningless, symbolic concept like 'identity'? Even if these refugees somehow 'take over' Germany, guess what? They still have to fend off 50 or so nations in Europe to maintain power, and on top of that, France and The United Kingdom have nuclear weapons, so invading those countries is pretty much out of the question. All this is is worrying over nothing.
    George_HorseNathaniel_BZombieguy1987
  • @LibertineStates ;
    What intelligent human being cares about a meaningless, symbolic concept like 'identity'? Even if these refugees somehow 'take over' Germany, guess what? They still have to fend off 50 or so nations in Europe to maintain power, and on top of that, France and The United Kingdom have nuclear weapons, so invading those countries is pretty much out of the question. All this is is worrying over nothing.
    Most people care about their identity. It's a common thing humans do. It can be your religion, political belief, culture, or race. 
    And also if these refugees take over Germany, every country in Europe is not going to attack. These refugees would be able to take over Germany by outnumbering the German population, which is predicted to happen in the near future, and then gaining majority power in the elections. Europe has no reason to attack. It can be a democratic take over. 

    And once again, some of these "refugees" aren't refugees at all, but the government doesn't care. 
    LibertineStatesGeorge_HorseNathaniel_BZombieguy1987
  • Germany should continue to allow immigrants to come into their country. It can help improve and increase their economy and country.
    PogueagsrGeorge_HorseNathaniel_BZombieguy1987
  • agsragsr 848 Pts
    @therep, it can certainly help their economy but also need to be careful with vetting process to ensure it doesn't turn into a free for all
    George_HorseNathaniel_BZombieguy1987
    Live Long and Prosper
  • One World

    One People.

    Nationhood and religion are just concepts. 

    Let's not forget that; most of the perceived present day immigration crisis and the rise of ISIS. Were induced by the U.S and it's Allies, meddling in the affairs of Middle Eastern and North African Sovereign States.

    As we have plunged so may peoples lives into crisis, it is therefore incumbent on us to alleviate the hardships we have imposed on so many displaced people.

    @passedbill ;
    Let's not also forget that the modern U.S. is a nation founded on immigration.
    LibertineStatesPogueGeorge_Horse
  • @Fredsnephew Germany isn't a nation founded on immigration. Merkel has invited hundreds of thousands of anti-Germans into her country. Gang rapes of German girls are a daily occurence. Germany is a country in deep social disorder on the brink of serious internal strife.
    George_HorseZombieguy1987
  • FascismFascism 332 Pts
    edited February 19
    @Fredsnephew ;
    One World

    One People.

    That's utopia and in order for most utopias to exist, something has to go. And in this case, national identity and culture goes. 

    It is not the general public to punish because of the governments incompetency. And many of the German immigrants aren't refugees anyways. 
    LibertineStatesGeorge_HorseNathaniel_BZombieguy1987
  • edited February 19
    @Fascism Then good. National Identity and Culture are primitive concepts created by primitive people anyway, and if this is the price I must pay to not live like a caveman, then so be it.
    PogueFascismGeorge_HorseNathaniel_BZombieguy1987
  • I think they should allowed. Less than 2 percent of terror attacks in the EU from 2009-2013 were religiously motivated. There obviously should be a vetting process but 100,000 people should not be restricted because of 1 person. 
    PogueZombieguy1987
  • @Fascism ;

    One World. One People.

    There is nothing remotely utopian about this.

    Where else, other than planet Earth do we have to call home?

    How many nations, actually have a pure national identity?

    LibertineStates;  is correct in pointing out, that culture and national identity are merely conceptual notions. We believe what is taught to us as kids and we pass on this information, often with little regard for the validity and reality of this information.   @LibertineStates
    PogueLibertineStatesGeorge_HorseNathaniel_BZombieguy1987
  • @Fredsnephew ;
    It's utopia because of the fact that you expect everyone to get along. 

    @Fredsnephew @LibertineStates ;
    Culture is always a part of humanity. No matter how primitive or futuristic humans become, culture is always going to be a part of them. And culture doesn't mean belief. Belief is a part of culture, but you can still be culturally German whether you are Muslim, Christian, or any other religion. 
    LibertineStatesNathaniel_BZombieguy1987
  • edited February 23
    An idea doesn't become automatically justified because 'that's the way it always is.' People may not get along as years go on, but it's way better than willingly dividing ourselves. It isn't even that absurd to begin with, seeing as how people like Bill Hamid and Stephan El Sharaawy exist.
    FascismNathaniel_BZombieguy1987
  • @LibertineStates Yes I agree that people should be trying to get along, but as I stated before, that is utopia. You can't expect everyone to get along. 
    Zombieguy1987
  • It is a sad sight to see that Germany might loses it cultural identity due to the refugees. Germany should implement proper immigration policy instead of "letting them all in" Its nonsense. 
    Nathaniel_BZombieguy1987
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." ~Gene Roddenberry

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
  • It is a sad sight to see that Germany might loses it cultural identity due to the refugees. Germany should implement proper immigration policy instead of "letting them all in" Its nonsense. 
    Other countries should learn from what they do.  If Germany benefits then other countries should follow suit, if not, they should learn from Germany's mistakes.  It's far better for them to conduct this experiment so others don't have to pay the consequences, if there are any.  I think so of these countries are going thought a bit of 'buyers remorse"
    Zombieguy1987
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • Its so funny to see that some don't see national and cultural identity. Its a horrible crisis, and I hope someone removes Merkel and puts better policy in dealing with refugees. 
    Zombieguy1987
    “Communism is evil. Its driving forces are the deadly sins of envy and hatred.” ~Peter Drucker 

    "It's not a gun control problem, it's a cultural control problem."
    Bob Barr
  • First of all, both the naysayers and the doomsayers are horribly wrong. People who say that there is no cultural issues with refugees in Germany are blind to reality, and people who say that refugees are ruining Germany are simply repeating what their favorite nationalist media told them. If you actually talk to the average German, you will see that neither were they culturally enriched by the increased diversity, nor do they feel in any danger: their quality of life and safety has not changed noticeably, and their life goes exactly the same as it did 5 years ago. Most Germans will never even see a person they can identify as a refugee, unless they spend a significant amount of time in certain neighborhoods in major German cities. Much like in the US, you would need to go to a China town or to a Chinese restaurant to see any noticeable degree of Chinese culture.

    The real problem occurs in a completely different area than people think. It is not about crime, it is not about drain on the economy, it is not about incompatibility of culture. It is about segregation that results from wrong execution of immigration policies, creating essentially states within a state that live by their own rules - preventing the society from communicating and interacting effectively and leading to wasted opportunities and miserable people.

    ---

    I am an immigrant from former Soviet Union to the US. I do not know a single person in my area who is also from former Soviet Union. Everyone I know, I communicate with in English and English only. My lifestyle does not in any way differ from the lifestyle of an average American citizen; I am perfectly integrated. I am happy, I contribute to the economy, people like me and my behavior. We get along excellently.

    Many people immigrated to the US when Soviet Union collapsed, and the US immigration system did not react quickly enough and still accepted people without a question as if fleeing the oppression. Most of them found themselves living among Americans, just like me. Of course there was a cultural difference, but the US laws quickly corrected for it.
    For example, people were used to giving bribes everywhere as a means to get through bureaucracy. So initially, when a police officer would stop them on a road, they would immediately hand the officer $100 or $200 and think the problem is solved - only to find handcuffs on their hands immediately. The US is not Eastern Bloc, and they learned it the hard way. Eventually they corrected their behavior and stopped giving bribes. Assimilation occurred naturally, without any special action on the part of the US government.

    Now... Consider a different scenario. Immigrants from China start massively settling in in a corner in Los Angeles. They form a community which helps them adapt to the American life. The community grows with time, eventually becoming a large enclave, a China Town. Now people arriving there no longer need to assimilate in the US society and economy. They can speak Chinese only, they can find employment in China Town, and they can even ignore some of the US laws, as the community in China Town has developed its own unofficial laws, mostly based on Chinese culture.

    In such cases, you have large groups of people who essentially exist in their own bubble, that has very little in common with the rest of the US. Is it bad for the US? Not really. But it is a wasted opportunity, as those people's activities have little impact on the rest of the US, and these people in turn tend to be much poorer and less able than other Americans, since they never had to learn to live in the non-Chinese part of the US and to use the opportunities it provides.

    ---

    So herein lies the problem. It is not that Germany has accepted a million refugees; a million refugees is nothing for an 80 million country. Is is how it treated the process of their assimilation. Building large refugee centers and putting people speaking the same language and following the same culture in them does nothing for integration. Giving people a thousand Euros monthly just for being there, as opposed to giving them money for doing some work, assures that the majority of those people never even consider doing any work. Considering asylum applications for years, instead of speeding up the bureaucracy, means that people are effectively cut off from living in the society for a long time, it is debilitating and it discourages them from doing anything to try to improve their situation - especially when they are not even legally allowed to work before being officially granted an asylum.

    Take 1000 immigrants from one society, let them settle randomly across the country and expect them to do some work to survive, maybe helping them with free educational programs to get them started - and you will have zero issues. Take 1000 immigrants, put them in one asylum center, pay them $2,000 a month each, consider their immigration application for a couple of years during which they are not allowed to do anything in the country - and you might as well have just sliced a piece of their home country and slapped it on your territory. Which, in case of dealing with immigrants from hostile cultures, is really, really impractical.

    ---

    I think South Korea shows best how to integrate refugees. It has to deal with a lot of refugees from North Korea, who initially are much less adapted to living in a First World market economy, than any refugees Europe ever has to deal with. South Korea gets them started by getting them through an extensive educational program, and then, when they are prepared enough, sets them loose, offering some minimal support in case of potential relapses and difficulties.

    Immigration is not always pretty. The Democratic world had been evolving for many centuries to get to where it is now. It is unreasonable to expect arrivals from backwards countries to be able to adapt in a few days, nor is it reasonable to urge them to continue those backwards countries' lifestyle on your territory. However, people are people. Anyone can assimilate in a good society, if the right approach is taken by that society. Rather than naked idealism on one side and scary doomsaying on another, people should just look at things practically and do what needs to be done to ensure the best outcome.
    Zombieguy1987
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